Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

[RZL]

I honestly have not had an problems with Gothita. Maybe it is because my teams are overly weak to it such as, Sticky Webs and a Well-Built Stall team, but I do not think it should be suspected.
Pros
+Shadow Tag*
+Good Stab
+Excellent Coverage
+Trick
Cons
-Lack of power (Failing to OHKO 23/14/14 Mienfoo)
-15 Speed (You need to keep sticky webs off your side of the field)
-Frail and weak to Knock Off
-Scarf Pawniard is still a great set


If I forgot anything sorry.

 

[kingmidas]

Nice and dead thread.

I feel Gothita is at least worth a suspect right now in Little Cup thanks to the Choice Scarf set. This thing is almost for sure going to get a kill on something important that you want or cripple something important with Trick and let a team-mate get an easy set up. It has a good enough special movepool that it can effectively trap a decent portion of the game and kill them. The threat of trick often means defensive pokes usually can't afford to not attack the first turn which really does help.

Goth isn't without its downsides as it's actually pretty frail and can be easily revenge killed by Pursuit Stunky/Houndour/Pawniard but that is the thing about Shadow Tag in this doesn't matter. By the time you get to pursuit it then Gothita will has already done it's job and took out whatever it chooses.

I'm not saying it's beyond all hope broken like some past pokes (hello swirlix) but I do believe it is suspect worthy at least.

I agree with this notion the fact of the matter is gothita incredibly supports any sweeper and you can't do anything about it (if you suggest shed shell don't even expect to get a joke like from someone) except double switch every time. It can eliminate a bunch of shit and trick means those threats may stay alive but you ain't stopping a sweep, though the one issue is you can always outplay the opp and get the scarf knocked off.
I'm gonna write up a much better post when I have time but for now I just wanna spark some ideas towards a sun and chlorophyll suspect, even if complex shit like bellsprout and even bulbasaur under the sun can be complete jackasses to any team cause nothing reliably checks them and they abuse the shit out of mons that run protect in the case of attempting to stop the sun. Sdef vullaby is the closest thing to an answer to bellsprout but then you simply get poisoned by sludge bomb and 2HKOed after SR or Life orb bellsprout simply 2HKOs after SR no matter what. Weather ball basically gives it all the advantages of fire stab and none of the downsides. It also has sleep powder along with shit like growth and sucker punch, and in the case of the latter, may stop fletchling cold late game from beating you, or early game you simply force it into roost mindgames.

 

[GlassGlaceon]

before some of you people call out fitzy for not agreeing him just remember a suspect is not the same as a ban, we're just seeing if it could be too powerful or not.

With that in mind, continue :)

 

[tazz]

Completely agree with a gothita suspect, but along with it I would like a diglett suspect. Diglett is a nightmare for many offensive teams, and puts stupid amounts of pressure on certain mons. It severely limits Chinchou, ponyta, larvesta , mag, knocked off mons, and can even terrorize teams with a sub LO set (see my SPLC match v obvious power). Because both can't be countered, it tends to be unhealthy for the meta game, IMO.

Edit: like gothita, it will almost always pressure something on the opposing team, and if that mon is needed to check something , things can go bad. Like gothita, it isn't definitely broken, but deserving of a test for being unhealthy.

 

[Camden]

How about a general trapping suspect? I think we can all agree that Diglett + Gothita combined create nightmares for opposing and generally equate to a guaranteed 2 Pokemon minimum taken care of, even more in a lot of cases. Diglett thriving on frailer and slower offensive threats, and Gothita tearing up the more defensive threats creates a nasty combination. While obviously there are ways around it (They're not S/A+ for a reason) we can't deny that what they do is well, pretty dumb. Hell, we even had a discussion about this a while back and wanted to deal with trapping in some manner while it was the hottest of topics.

 

[The Avalanches]

I disagree with trapping being suspected on a whole, as no one is complaining about being brought to their knees by Trapinch and Wynaut. I believe Shadow Tag and Arena Trap are not what is broken or unhealthy; it is the Pokemon with these abilities that should be deemed unhealthy.

Diglett and Gothita have some aspects about them that could be considered uncompetitive, but not broken. Gothita can trap and remove maybe one Pokemon per game, but it does so at the cost of momentum to the player. If Gothita was used to pick off Croagunk or Mienfoo, then a Dark-type can come in easily and take advantage of a choice-locked Gothita. I don't feel either Gothita or Diglett are broken, personally, but hell, why not? Let's have a suspect test. I could use another vote towards a TC badge.

 

[doomsday doink]

How about a general trapping suspect? I think we can all agree that Diglett + Gothita combined create nightmares for opposing and generally equate to a guaranteed 2 Pokemon minimum taken care of, even more in a lot of cases. Diglett thriving on frailer and slower offensive threats, and Gothita tearing up the more defensive threats creates a nasty combination. While obviously there are ways around it (They're not S/A+ for a reason) we can't deny that what they do is well, pretty dumb. Hell, we even had a discussion about this a while back and wanted to deal with trapping in some manner while it was the hottest of topics.

I assume you're referring to just Arena Trap and Shadow Tag when you say "trapping", as Magnet Pull, Pursuit, Fire Spin, etc. aren't busted by any means. Also, before anybody starts arguing about Wynaut and Trapinch not being broken, they both have other abilities they can use, so the Pokemon themselves won't be banned.

Perhaps Diglett and Gothita's main selling point does get banned. The former is still fast af and has access to Sand Force and the latter is the only viable user of Competitive in Little Cup (the other being Igglybuff). If the trapping abilities were banned, I can still see these two Pokemon having a place in the metagame; they just wouldn't be the lethal Pokemon that they are currently.

 

[Ray Jay]

Are we trying to play Little Cup or are we trying to play "only certain team types allowed"? Gothita and Diglett have a niche in checking some threats and allowing set up behemoths a shot at succeeding against balance. I fail to see what this accomplishes besides removing an intended game mechanic.

 

[Shrug]

I'm going to opine there's no way either pokemon are "broken" by traditional standards - please don't mention how neither Diglett nor Gothita are capable of sweeping teams, as that isn't the question. I disagree with looking at Dig and Goth together; each has different selling points and specific strengths and weaknesses that separate them enough to warrant individual looks. As a whole, I would say Diglett is a more consistent option: it will net a solid kill a game against a specific member of the foe's team (Pony, Chou, or miscellaneous weakened mons) and isn't frequently exploited for setups (Memento + good overall coverage makes it hard for things to set up). Gothita can spend some games as dead weight, moreso than Diglett, but there are also games where it takes out 2 critical mons and tricks a scarf onto a bulky third. It does allow some setups, but in most cases the things that boost in its face (Pawn specifically) have hard counters waiting on the team of the Goth user. Goth faces the problem of being Pursuit-weak, but Stunky and Doge aren't easy mons to slap on a team; Pawn usually should run other things besides Scarf. Things that definitely need to be considered are the actual sweeps allowed by each mon: what a Diglett frees up to sweep is vastly different from the windows a Goth opens. So yeah idk specifically about the suspects but I do feel they need to be conducted seperately

 

[tazz]

Agreeing that gothita and diglett are both definitely completely different mons, and trap completely different pokemon, and should definitely be suspected seperately (if at all). If I were to nominate them in the next suspect thread it would be 1: arena trap diglett, 2: shadow tag gothita, 3: Male Combee, not 1: trapping, 2: Male Combee.

 

[Holiday]

I'm fine with a suspect. Idk if they'll be banned (I don't think they should be for reasons stated above that idc to reiterate.) it's been a while since we've had one, and there's really no harm in a suspect.

 

[Celestavian]

I think that a suspect test would be harmless, but in my experience with the metagame so far, I would vote No on both Gothita and Diglett. Gothita has a big problem in that it can't OHKO anything that isn't weak to Psychic or is Carvanha (and even then it struggles to OHKO some stuff weak to Psychic), so it needs support from its teammates before it can support its teammates. Then after that, you're locked into a move, and considering how weak Gothita is, there's a lot that can set up on a Thunderbolt or Psychic. In addition, the frail sweepers it's paired with, like Zigzagoon can often have multiple checks on the same team, meaning that a one-for-one trade isn't always good enough. Diglett is much the same, in that it's pretty weak and only OHKOes stuff weak to its STAB move, but it also has Memento up its sleeve. It's severely limited by hazards and its inability to trap floating things. Memento isn't always a sure thing either; I haven't hyped up Timburr in this post yet so I'll go ahead and do that now: Timburr is the ultimate Diglett stopper. Drain Punch recovers all the HP taken by EQ, Mach Punch finishes it to prevent Memento, and even if Diglett gets a Memento off, Timburr can still beat Zigzagoon and Tirtouga. All Timburr has to do is Bulk Up as they set up, and after that the Drain Punch healing and boosted Defense lets Timburr smack them around. How about Omanyte? -2 Drain Punch always 2HKOes after the Shell Smash Defense drop and Hydro Pump only KOes 37.5% of the time at +2 while Surf never does.

Diglett and Gothita are good at what they do, but they aren't on the level that Shadow Tag Chandelure was; they are fine because they can't OHKO half the meta while Scarfed, instead settling for picking off weakened threats and stuff weak to their STABs.

 

[Heysup]

Oh god not this again. I can't decide if we are talking about suspecting because we're bored or dull (or both).

before some of you people call out fitzy for not agreeing him just remember a suspect is not the same as a ban, we're just seeing if it could be too powerful or not.

With that in mind, continue :)

I think this mentality is completely naive. We have used Gothita and know how strong it is and suspecting it won't change shit from our point of view.

It is blatantly obvious that you only want to suspect something you think is banworthy.

I'm fine with a suspect. Idk if they'll be banned (I don't think they should be for reasons stated above that idc to reiterate.) it's been a while since we've had one, and there's really no harm in a suspect.

This actually infuriates me and hopefully I'm not the only one. You are essentially saying (paraphrasing) 'let's have a suspect where we could perhaps ban and completely destroy a strategy and all teams preparing for that strategy because (the actual words used) "IT'S BEEN A WHILE SINCE WE'VE HAD ONE"'. Maybe I'm just losing my rhetorical touch but I'm almost speechless.

Moving on.....

Gothita and Diglett are both revenge killers of different Pokemon (frankly, them operating "differently" is a little overstated). You can actually use them fairly interchangeably on a team (I've actually tested that extensively). The thing that's consistent with them is this: if you use them properly and carefully, they can be immensely rewarding via double-switching, predictions, and patience.

However, generally, against an equally skilled player, Diglett and Gothita share the same problems. Generally (1) you need to sacrifice something to get either of them in safely since they are actually grade A bitchass material that gets OHKOed by a mousefart (to be fair, Gothita can take the occasional hit). (2) that the Pokemon that's coming in after they revenge kill something is generally going to be really scary and at the very least cost you momentum. Sure, you KOed their Fighting-type mon with Psychic. Guess what, now you're dealing with a +2 Pawniard gg no re unless you were immensely careful and outplayed your opponent or you're getting Pursuited (but honestly, that's a waste of time after it's killed the mon you want it to). Diglett has a similar case with Pokemon like <isn't weak to EQ and doesn't suck like any bulky Fighting-type, Archen, w.e.>. (3) They are also both prone to being revenge killed in their own right by things like Fletchling, Sucker Punch, and not-as-slow Choice Scarf users.

(4) If they don't have a SE move they will likely fail to OHKO anything and its your own damn fault if you play like shit and don't have any Pokemon that can KO them or take a hit off of 15 Atk and set up / take momentum. These Pokemon target specific threats that teams require to be removed but otherwise generally act as a suboptimal use of a slot. I would never throw them on a team without a specific win condition it can take out AND supporting the shit out of it in order to not lose the game automatically.

Can we stop talking about suspecting things for the hell of it? Adv LC got out of hand and fucked itself up but I'm not going to let this meta do the same thing.

 

[blarajan]

If you DO suspect shit though just because I'm not in charge anymore doesn't mean you're allowed to stop using my system...

 

[boo836]

guys if you want to ban trapping cause you don't like it then go play ubers

 

[Artemisa]

I want to suspect Gothita because it kills almost any defensive core you have in your team. In my opinion, If you want to build a team in LC, you have to have at least two mons to take hits. With the coverage Gothita has + trick it can get rid of this allowing the opposing team to simply spam attacks. It doesn't just beat balance btw, it just has a hard time switching in on offensive teams, but can still trap anything offensive presence the team has or any defensive mons the team has to sponge hits. Even though Gothita doesn't hit hard, tricking a Spritzee / Porygon / Slowpoke / Lickintung can really suck. Even then, Gothita has other tools it can use other than trick. U-turn / Baton Pass / Volt Switch are still great ways of bringing in Gothita btw, even though switching in is a problem it isn't that bad of con. The only thing I see trapping gothita is Pawniard other than that it gets a free switch out and almost everything is revenged somehow so that's mot that strong of an argument, although I see what you're saying on how manageable it is.

I'm just talking about Gothita not diglett. Two separate mons with similar roles.

 

[absdaddy]

i'm completely wordless.. I guess someone smart ran gothita the way i ran spikes etc, to "dismantle defensive cores".. I didn't know taking advantage of 90% idiots building around 4/6 same mons is considered broken lol, suspect torchic, zig, web, birdspam, and Knock Off while you're at it.

 

[boo836]

Don't give them ideas abs

 

[sam-testings]

why suspect torchic? Gothita is an ok mon, but dies to nearly all priority, and it is a use once mon that you never use in a battle after its job is done. It does its job well, but i don't think it deserves a suspect. Also, its frail as hell.

 

[Kavatika]

why suspect torchic? Gothita is an ok mon, but dies to nearly all priority, and it is a use once mon that you never use in a battle after its job is done. It does its job well, but i don't think it deserves a suspect. Also, its frail as hell.

this:

i'm completely wordless.. I guess someone smart ran gothita the way i ran spikes etc, to "dismantle defensive cores".. I didn't know taking advantage of 90% idiots building around 4/6 same mons is considered broken lol, suspect torchic, zig, web, birdspam, and Knock Off while you're at it.

is sarcasm

 

[Rowan]

guys if you want to ban trapping cause you don't like it then go play ubers

I don't think anyone said 'I want to ban it because I don't like it', unless I've lost my ability to read...

Anyway, my thoughts. Gothita is really good, like really good. It can easily take stuff out for most sweepers using 4 moves from Psychic/Tbolt/Eball/HPfire/trick, allowing offensive Pokemon to possibly run through the opposing team. Pairing it with any set up sweeper makes for a deadly combination.

However, a deadly combination that you can actually take advantage of. Gothita can kill something, but due to generally being choice locked it then completely shifts the momentum back to the opposing team.

So Gothita does really limit stall imo, since it can easily break stall cores down, but teams with offensive Pokemon can often turn it into a liability. I do feel the metagame could evolve to be unkind to Gothita, and any competent player can build teams which completely take advantage of Gothita. It's nothing like any other suspect where they had almost nothing that could take advantage of them if they were in the opposing team.

I'm still torn though, because shadow tag is so unique, and how hard is it to eliminate ferroseed with hp fire then trick a scarf onto a spritzee or porygon for omanyte/shellder to sweep. Or Tbolt an archen to death, and bam, zig/fletch/bunnelby have an easier time sweeping. Eball can completely eliminate chinchou or tirtouga, and psychic can take out gunk or a timburr (with a bit of prior damage). it can also break abra's sash which is a great bonus for any sweeper.

Also I'm completely against banning an ability which wynaut and trapinch can use fine without being anywhere near broken.

 

[boo836]

You're forgetting that goth is a momentum killer, as user Heysup pointed out. Gothita may be able to dismantle teams, but it isn't doing anything itself. It's only getting rid of certain Pokemon with a specialized set. Just keep up pressure instead of getting crushed from having a trappable team.

 

[Artemisa]

For one turn momentum does get away, but the reward is still higher especially if you take out a member of a defensive core (I don't think I have to explain why this is such a good thing). If it's dismantling teams, then it's obviously doing something. Rowan pretty much described how ridiculous it supports sweepers and "getting rid of certain Pokemon" is understating what Goth does. Gothita will kill/cripple most walls with it's arsenal of moves. You are right when you say you just have to apply pressure, but that's only because the presence of Gothita is overwhelming. This path just forces you to risk double switches which at times it's understandable, but when it's unnecessary and unfair, you have to draw a line.

This mon should be atleast looked into.

 

[infamy]

tbh i think before we start testing stuff just because the meta is stagnant af rn, we should revisit some of the more controversial bans. i mean lets face it neither goth nor diggy is largely responsible for stalls lack of viability, its because the idiosyncrasies of stall in lc make it really dependent on eviolite and with the knock off buff this gen stalls never gonns be as good as offense unless its unbelievably well built(read: kaleidoscope). also diggy and goth literally suck all of your momentum away lol they have absolutely massive opportunity cost and are really inconsistent at beating anything not named stall.
tl;dr: lets retest something like tite before we start testing shit out of boredom, goth and diggy are nowhere near broken.

 

[macle]

We do not have suspect tests because the metagame is stagnant / out of boredom. We have them to address possible problems in the metagame. Please stop saying that.