Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

[volx757]

Lele destroys Special Sponges with Psyshock, anyway. Dark-types that could run SpDef are killed by Moonblast or Focus Blast. Assault Vest Alolan Muk is probably the only Pokemon that this would be good for, since it can take Lele's attacks with ease.

Super Fang was basically never even considered in Singles and only on Pokemon with terrible offenses. I only see this even being considered in Doubles.

Well there's only 1 OU mon that even gets super fang, Mew, which may explain why the move doesn't see serious usage. I may be wrong here, but I believe Crobat can make use of the move in UU to deal with steels and stuff it otherwise cannot get past.
I think Fini can use it effectively in the current environment, as it's otherwise quite weak without a damage boosting item. I don't really know a relevant calc cause yung meta and all, but this shows how relatively weak it can be (hydro pumping a non-EVd mew without life orb/specs):
252 SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 145-172 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Or you can go for the utility of a guaranteed 50% chunk.

[edit: of course 252 spa w/out damage boosting item would never be a set, just to illustrate damage output. the set using nature's madness would likely have only 4 SpA EVs]

 

[Seth_]

Yeah except definitely not lol. Outside of Landorus there is nothing in the tier that compares to Hoopa-U's wallbreaking and hole punching capabilities. Crawdaunt is very strong and has priority sure, but Hoopa-U has an expansive movepool that covers practically anything relevant, insane offenses which lets it run mixed, physical, or special sets, and Dark Pulse/Hyperspace Fury are among the most spammable moves in the tier, even more than Knock Off considering that Megas and itemless mons have a potential to play around it. Hoopa also has great special bulk which lets it soft check a lot of special attackers and fire off hits, something Crawdaunt can't do due to its terrible bulk. Its Speed tier is also great for a wallbreaker, 80 compared to 55 is quite significant, and gives it the jump on every defensive threat + a few offensive Pokemon. Crawdaunt isn't versatile at all, in fact it's very linear considering it's always going to be running Jet, Knock, Crabhammer, and either SD or Crunch depending on if it's Band. Everyone knows what it's going to do, which is fine considering how dangerous it is, but Hoopa has the advantage of having so many move variations that it's not that easy to scout and by the time you do you've probably already lost a mon.

Crawdaunt is no doubt a cool Pokemon still, but it's definitely not anywhere near the level of Hoopa-U, and saying that it outclasses it is a huge over exaggeration. In fact, Crawdaunt is definitely not as useful as it was in ORAS because of the massive amounts of better breakers out there, and on top of that it has to worry about a few more checks/counters that it didn't really have before, particularly Koko, Fini, and Bulu, and the massive influx of Mega Venusaur/Mega Gyarados doesn't help it much either.



Wait what are you smoking exactly? How is Z Rain Dance Manaphy an overrated set when that's like the only set you should really be running these days anyway lol. Tail Glow 3 attacks still has its merits I guess, but Z Rain Dance fixes the major problem that Manaphy usually has, which is actually threatening offense. Not only can Manaphy STILL break through stall and fat teams, but now it has the decision to late game sweep at +1 or just blow something completely out of the water (lol) with an extremely powerful Water-type move, doing insane amounts to even the fattest of walls. This set is what makes Manaphy so good right now, otherwise it wouldn't be nearly as insane as it is now. Z Rain Dance pushes it from a high A- Pokemon to like top A+ easily.

Crawdnaut is definitely more versitale just because priority. It have matchup against ANY playstale (unlike hoopa which is destroyed by voltunr). Even if there is just one crawdnaut set it has much more pontential to do havoc than hoopa which is almost always choice locked.

And z-raindance manaphy is jack of all trades. It can sweep, it can wallbreak but there is much better competition. It is quite mediocre wallbreaker walled by ferrothorn and latios and mediocre sweeper with poor power (unless someone is bad enough to give it free 2 turns). There are tons of more reliabe sweepers (most notable is margeana who looks kinda broken or porygon-z which is ) and I much rather stick to standart tg+3 attacks or just better sweeper. It has it's nichte but it's as smal as nichte of various' subsalac sweepers.

 

[Force Majeure]

I'm going to consolidate a lot of thoughts here bc there are a lot of threads here.

The likes of Greninja, Genesect, and Landorus-I are way better at everything Gengar hopes to do, and none of them are Pursuit fodder. Above all else, stronger, better threats are the reason Gengar isn't getting usage. Absorbing Toxic Spikes is pretty cool, but even a Poisioned Greninja is better than Gengar because it still has no good switch-ins whatsoever. Gengar will probably find its stride once we start seeing some balance in the tier, but the power disparity between offensive Pokemon is pretty clear at this point.

I think some of us are baking in an expectation that some of the usual suspects will be gone soon so I'm reading posts talking about Gengar in the context of a more balanced meta. But yeah it's hard for Gengar (and Starmie and regular Alakazam) while Greninja is here.

Sergeant Spooky I think that Torkoal is better than people may have initially thought; it's somewhat like Pelipper in that it has a lot of role compression that's usually otherwise difficult to fit on a weather-centric team. It can lay and remove hazards and is a(n albeit pretty crappy) physically defensive tank that hits deceptively hard due to weather boosting its STAB. The problem with Torkoal vs Pelipper is that Torkoal can't pivot in and out nearly as effectively. Torkoal reminds me of Politoed; it has some cool support options but it is fundamentally unsuited for offense teams in terms of BST distrubition and inability to maintain consistent momentum.

Someone mentioned kabutops earlier: it's complicated. It doesn't need aqua jet as badly as it did in ORAS due to the gale wings nerf although it's nice to target scarf Pheromosa; this frees up a slot for Low Kick which is nice with SD for Ferrothorn. It has problems vs a lot of things without SD and I'm very bearish on any weather dependent Mon that needs further setup (except for z-rain Manaphy). There aren't a lot of physical swift swim mons, though. I haven't tried physical swift swim Seismitoad but it's a possibility in lieu of m-pert if you need the electric immunity. I think the structure of rain teams has changed fundamentally with the introduction of terrains and drizzle pelipper so the usual structure (read: straitjacket) of ORAS full rain--Politoed + Kingdra + SSer + pivot + breaker + coverage mon--doesn't really apply. I've been having much more consistent results with teams using rain + psychic terrain or z-rain HO teams that use rain more like a traditional setup move.

 

[JSND]

Post Aegislash ban, I have been using Bulky Attacker Pivot Magearna, and i must say this is quickly becoming my favorite pokemon of this metagame

(Magearna) @ Leftovers
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Aura Sphere
- Volt Switch
- Shadow Ball

The gist with this set is basically thanks to how ridiculous Magearna is in term of Stats, Movepool, and Typing, it can soft check or hard check a lot of stuff, while also being able to Pivot with Volt Switch. In my experience, its very comparable to Aegislash in that A LOT of the meta bricks against it 1v1, while it hits REALLY hard in return. I'm sure theres enough move choice on this thing to the point that you can basically make it check almost the entire metagame(other move options that seems reasonable in this particular spread include Sub, Thunder Wave, Grass Knot, Trick Room, Calm Mind etc). Soul-Heart is pretty useless in this set since its going to switch a lot, but it doesn't really matter when the rest of the package is ridiculously good. This is basically "Aegislash and Rotom-W slapped in one with Latios Draco Meteor as a bonus"



Only "counter" or hard to deal with mon for this that i experienced so far is Landorus Incarnate(this is broken anyway so i don't feel bad) and Heatran(its not really a safe switch thanks to Aura Sphere, and so far i used this with Thunder Wave because Thunder Wave is a broken move). I won't be surprised if after the metagame settles Magearna become the most used pokemon in the tier.

 

[Vague]

Crawdnaut is definitely more versitale just because priority. It have matchup against ANY playstale (unlike hoopa which is destroyed by voltunr). Even if there is just one crawdnaut set it has much more pontential to do havoc than hoopa which is almost always choice locked.

And z-raindance manaphy is jack of all trades. It can sweep, it can wallbreak but there is much better competition. It is quite mediocre wallbreaker walled by ferrothorn and latios and mediocre sweeper with poor power (unless someone is bad enough to give it free 2 turns). There are tons of more reliabe sweepers (most notable is margeana who looks kinda broken or porygon-z which is ) and I much rather stick to standart tg+3 attacks or just better sweeper. It has it's nichte but it's as smal as nichte of various' subsalac sweepers.

Z Manaphy is literally one of the most powerful sweepers in the the tier. Being able to go from 0 to +3 / +1 in the course of two turns with great bulk and decent speed to back it up is insane. Like Gary said, Manaphy's problem last gen was offense being able to take advantage of it, but with ZDance it doesn't have that issue anymore. It literally gave it exactly what it needed to fix the small flaw it did have.

You also need to realize that the only time you should even be using Manaphy to start it's sweep is when it's check and counters are gone. Of course you're not going to get the most out of it if you're typing to sweep against Tapu Koko and Ferro waiting to revenge kill and switch-in. Another factor is you don't even have to just use Rain Dance. Hydro Vortex is a flipping nuke at +3 that blasts away most switch-ins that don't resist it and things like Ferrothorn are destroyed by Subzero Slammer. Latios doesn't even want to come in on it since it could just get trapped the next turn or give something equally dangerous as Manaphy a free turn such as Magearna or Tapu Koko. To say that things like Porygon-Z (of all things) is better than ZManaphy is absurd.

Also, to say that Crawdaunt is better than Hoopa-U just because it has Aqua Jet is lunacy when Hoopa melts anything that comes in on it, unlike Crawdaunt who actually has a ton of splashable and common checks like Bulu, Fini, MGyara, MVenu, etc. Even if it doesn't have priority of all the speed it could ever want, it's still one of, if not, the best wallbreakers available right now and Crawdaunt just doesn't compare.

 

[SJCrew]

I'm going to consolidate a lot of thoughts here bc there are a lot of threads here.
I think some of us are baking in an expectation that some of the usual suspects will be gone soon so I'm reading posts talking about Gengar in the context of a more balanced meta. But yeah it's hard for Gengar (and Starmie and regular Alakazam) while Greninja is here.

I can tell. For as much as I'd like to do the same, I click the find battle button, and sure enough, those 'on the radar' threats and their few checks are pretty much all I see. We can talk about these fun teams all we like, but they're not viable right now. I've tried. The path of least resistance is to go the way of the ladder and spam VoltTurn because it wins games.

So, has anyone been using Scarf Genesect? It's actually really good in SuMo still! The only difference between its performance now and early XY is that Heatran is way less common, so you actually have no counters at all now instead of just one. Nobody ever bothers staying in with something Ice-weak either. They switch every time and you U-turn every time. Easy wins, lots of fun.

 

[Chaoswalker]

Nature's madness might be good on a Tapu Fini with taunt against stall. It's immune to status for a few turns, so it should be able to dismantle non-ferrothorn threats.

 

[Shurtugal]

A pokemon I really think is underappreciated and very good this metagame is scarf ditto. ditto just invalidates a lot of the offensive teams on the ladder right now. I wish I could make a better team with it, but every team I have ever tried with ditto, ditto has carried it's shitty put-together on its own. It is just so good rn

 

[Super Muchacho]

I
I'm not quite following your logic. Gengar does totally different things for a team than these other ghost types, and the fact that they've so prevalent is a good thing for Gengar, since it's fast and can OHKO them.

Mind plate Tapu lele with psyshock, moonblast, thunderbolt and focus blast. It should pull through any type of stall.

Thank you. It literally deals with everything that dares to recover. Its a pitty that it gets banned soon.

 

[57west]

So what Tapu uses Natures maddness the best? I don't think Koko will ever use it since it already hits pretty hard and wants other moves to assist it. Fini seems like a great user of it for singles, while it would possible switch it out for Heal pulse in doubles. Lele I see liking it to help hit those Special tanks hard like Chansey. Bulu maybe, but it has such a massive attack and some great attacking moves with it that it may be hard to give up for Natures madness

Bulky Tapu Bulu is a good user Ive found, it lets you do something to Mega Scizor/Skarm/Celesteela switch ins

The likes of Greninja, Genesect, and Landorus-I are way better at everything Gengar hopes to do, and none of them are Pursuit fodder. Above all else, stronger, better threats are the reason Gengar isn't getting usage. Absorbing Toxic Spikes is pretty cool, but even a Poisioned Greninja is better than Gengar because it still has no good switch-ins whatsoever. Gengar will probably find its stride once we start seeing some balance in the tier, but the power disparity between offensive Pokemon is pretty clear at this point.

Genesect isnt really a 1 for 1 comparison with Gengar since they dont have that similar of a role, but you're pretty right. People are just trying to find that anti-meta type of mon right now and gengar has good potential on that front at least

 

[SJCrew]

I knew somebody would say that. 1-for-1 comparisons in Pokemon are always pointless. The point is the 'w', not the role. If a certain role can be fulfilled, but isn't actually as conducive to a win as the role of, say, being an absurdly fast and powerful threat that carries games, then why do we need that role? I'd rather click Hyperspace Fury five or six times and win that way than create an actual strategy and run the risk of a bad match-up vs. said strategy.

 

[Ema Skye]

So what Tapu uses Natures maddness the best? I don't think Koko will ever use it since it already hits pretty hard and wants other moves to assist it. Fini seems like a great user of it for singles, while it would possible switch it out for Heal pulse in doubles. Lele I see liking it to help hit those Special tanks hard like Chansey. Bulu maybe, but it has such a massive attack and some great attacking moves with it that it may be hard to give up for Natures madness

Fini is the best Nature's Madness user in Singles due to how well it busts stall with the move as well as Taunt. It seems redundant on Lele and Bulu due to how hard they hit. I've seen the same Madness + Taunt set on Koko but I feel like Fini does that better.

 

[57west]

I knew somebody would say that. 1-for-1 comparisons in Pokemon are always pointless. The point is the 'w', not the role. If a certain role can be fulfilled, but isn't actually as conducive to a win as the role of, say, being an absurdly fast and powerful threat that carries games, then why do we need that role? I'd rather click Hyperspace Fury five or six times and win that way than create an actual strategy and run the risk of a bad match-up vs. said strategy.

Its just to point out that there isnt a downside to running Gengar if you're already running Genesect

 

[Schpoonman]

Genesect and Gengar accomplish very different roles, so can we stop comparing them? Gengar is a special breaker, while Genesect is a physical or special pivot/revenge killer/sweeper. It can be a breaker, but its typing, ability, movepool, and stat spread lends itself best to other roles.

 

[SJCrew]

Nobody is comparing Genesect and Gengar. Read between the lines. Gengar isn't bad necessarily, but it's a sleeper threat among big guns. That's what I said the first time I posted.

 

[JSND]

Its really not comparing the two

Its kinda like this.
With Gengar you have insanely versatile pokemon with Anti Meta Typing who can deal with 3 out of 4 Tapus, speed Tiers Latios, and the entire 110 metagame

With Genesect you click U Turn, does 90.000 damage to non resists then this proceed to allow you to click Hyperspace Fury. Late game clean up with coverage of choice
With Landorus you click buttons watch things go fucking dead and whatever could "counter" this can be dealt with move options or teammate. And this can set SR for some reason or U turn into Hyperspace Fury
With Greninja you click buttons and watch things die while setting spikes in your sleep, or U Turn into Hyperspace Fury
With Hoopa you click Hyperspace Fury

Repeat that for pretty much any "not really used mon" vs "Former Uber mon" and you get the idea. SJCrew's example of Hoopa Unbound is actually a very fitting answer to this sort of "comparison". Why think or try to find "anti meta" or "new things to play with" when you can click Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury and 3shot Tapu Fini for a free win? In this case of comparison you can actually compare absurd stuff with clearly different role like Chansey vs Hoopa Unbound on the very extreme end and the comparison literally reads like this: One can click Hyperspace Fury.

The idea that you need to define and separate everything by roles and norms always feel very outdated to me, but this is especially true in a metagame that allows retarded pokemon with ridiculous power level like current SM Pokebank OU for free, turning it into who can click U Turn and Volt Switch better and start clicking their Hyperspace Fury. Its very reminiscent of BW1 early metagame where everyone just runs Darkrai, Shaymin Sky, and Doexys Attack

 

[CrimsonArenz]

Been using Scarf Ditto as a decent revenge killer, it's specially good with all the setup mons running around (UBs, Magearna, Z-Status Moves).

 

[TURBODERP]

Crawdnaut is definitely more versitale just because priority. It have matchup against ANY playstale (unlike hoopa which is destroyed by voltunr). Even if there is just one crawdnaut set it has much more pontential to do havoc than hoopa which is almost always choice locked.

And z-raindance manaphy is jack of all trades. It can sweep, it can wallbreak but there is much better competition. It is quite mediocre wallbreaker walled by ferrothorn and latios and mediocre sweeper with poor power (unless someone is bad enough to give it free 2 turns). There are tons of more reliabe sweepers (most notable is margeana who looks kinda broken or porygon-z which is ) and I much rather stick to standart tg+3 attacks or just better sweeper. It has it's nichte but it's as smal as nichte of various' subsalac sweepers.

What is this nonsense?

Crawdaunt has quite a few common checks and counters in OU. Mega Gyarados, Toxapex, Tapu Bulu, Tangrowth, Chesnaught, Mega Venusaur, Tapu Fini, (Hoopa-U 1v1s any of these easily with any viable set) and so on. It's also entirely reliant on priority Aqua Jet to kill anything faster than it (i.e. a hell of a lot of things), and with the influx of Tapu Lele (plus the existence of Tapu Bulu and Tapu Fini, and the rise in Mega Venusaur usage, and the existence of Toxapex, and the rise of Mega Gyarados), that is a noticeable impact on Crawdaunt's ability to perform versus balance/offence. Meanwhile, Hoopa-U can run Scarf/Specs/Band and blow past pretty much anything with its STAB+Focus Blast. It can run physically offensive or specially offensive, and each set has different checks (Mandibuzz can beat Scarf and Band, but loses to Specs Focus Blast, etc.). Hoopa is far more versatile than Crawdaunt, whose priority took a big hit in this gen and whose raw power and coverage is less than Hoopa's.

Crawdaunt also has an incredibly tough time switching in on anything, while Hoopa-U has solid special bulk (80/130) and can come in on or survive quite a few powerful special attacks (with 0 investment, Hoopa-U survives a Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast in the Sun 100% of the time). Even its physical bulk is almost as good as Crawdaunt's (i.e. terrible, but still decent enough to survive most relevant priority).

252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 188-222 (62.2 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The idea that Magearna is a better sweeper than Z-Rain Dance Manaphy (which again, can be Rain Dance+Z-Hydro Vortex or Z-Icewhatever) is hilarious, given that Magearna is far slower and worse against offense (especially without Scarf or Shift Gear), and doesn't hit as hard as Rain-boosted Manaphy. Magearna right now isn't even close to broken.

 

[Olly]

Genesect needs to go imo. The number of checks it has are too limited, and it can overcome all of them with one set or another. It's incredibly hard to pin down due to U-Turn, and because of U-Turn it can do a great job at wearing down teams until it can sweep. I've seen a wide variety of sets. Standard Scarf, Physical Scarf, Choice Band, Shift Gear Physical, Shift Gear Special, what I think was Shift Gear Special with Techno Blast Water to hit what are being used as the 2 most frequent checks Heatran and Alolan Marowak. It just does too much, and there's so many sets right now that it's hard to even know what it is running. The most frequent way to check it if you aren't running Heatran or Alolan Marowak is normally to shuffle around your team predicting what they are going to do. The problem with this is it's always in the Genesect's user's favour as clicking U-Turn is always an easy play for them regardless that loses them little.

 

[Duck Chris]

So it seems a lot of the top mons right now are hyper offense oriented. are people finding that to be the most effective playstyle? I think it's hard for bulky offense to prepare for everything right now, but balance seems ok.

Also, what Stealth Rock users are people liking? So far the most I've seen are both Landorus, Excadrill, Garchomp and Marowak.

pros: beats sableye 1v1, beats other rockers 1v1
cons: easy to wear down, has to switch out of genesect and pheromosa at the beginning of the game
I think lando is probably the best rocker right now. The ability to beat Tapu Fini with sludge wave, Zapdos or Mantine with rock slide (most of the time), and generally scare things out give it a lot of opportunities to put em up and keep em up.

pros: Good bulk + intimidate, lots of switch in opportunities, scarier this gen with Z-fly
cons: doesnt really beat any of the common defog users right now, especially tapu fini. Also celesteela bait.
Lando-t is a mixed bag I find. Good against some teams and horrid against others. Intimidate and rocky helmet deter genesect/pheromosa from U-turning but he still can't stay in to take an ice beam. Maybe would be good on a bulky team but as I said kinda hard to build I've found.

pros: Also good bulk, at least a bit variable in choice of moves
cons: same as lando-t
Garchomp is not the best right now sadly. I think he's only really viable as a stealth rock user if you're using him with sash, as that at least guarantees rocks vs. genesect / pheromosa lead. Feel free to correct me on this as I think chomp is the one I have seen and used the least among these guys.

pros: mold breaker beats sableye, rapid spin, good switch-in opportunities
cons: honestly excadrill can serve better roles on your team than SR, so there's opportunity cost
SpDef excadrill is pretty sick right now, and I think if you're not using Assualt Vest you should be putting Stealth Rock here. Excadrill hasn't changed too much with the gen shift, despite being scared out by a few more things. Unfortunately also celesteela bait but otherwise a solid choice.

pros: good immunities and switch in opportunities, solid offensive presence
cons: stealth rock weak, slow, predictable
I'm not sure about Marowak guys. He seemed real good for a bit but every time I face one I'm never the slightest bit worried. Slow speed and the fact that he loses 1v1 to Tapu Fini means he often struggles to do his job and if your opponent gets any effective double switches, they basically guarantee -25% per switch in if rocks are up on your side.

Others: Azelf, Necrozma, Ferrothorn, Skarmory?

Overall I think Stealth Rock is a bit harder to fit onto teams right now, but arguably even more important than it has been. Volt-Turners are everywhere, and hazards play a key role in wearing them down. Sash Pheromosa and Nihilego can be really annoying from full health, and both Charizards are more popular than they have been in recent memory. On offense, stealth rock can be instrumental in wearing down checks like Marowak, Mantine, or Mega Venusaur. Defog and rapid spin are better than they have been, so the rocks game has been pretty interesting for me at least.

What stealth rock users have you been using?

 

[Ema Skye]

I've been using Ferro as my rock setter still. I'm playing rain so it's a natural fit. It's a solid answer to all 4 Tapus, barring HP Fire or Superpower Bulu. It's not exactly an offensive powerhouse, but Power Whip and Gyro Ball generally suffice.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

huh I didn't realize You could run skill swap and sheath rock on Chansey, how hasn't that been stall meta in ou? I know it was a thing in ubers and with bronzor in nu/pu for getting around magic bounce, but I guess blissey would be better with it for living knock offs from sableye

 

[Miyami~~]

I've been using Empoleon because my team was super Weak to Greninja. It works decently well, which surprised me.

 

[Chaoswalker]

Empoleon was the greninja check last gen, wasn't it? Of course it can still run low sweep if I remember correctly.

 

[FuzzyPinkSlippers]

I am unsure as to whether or not this has been answered, but due to the amount of moves and pokemon made illegal in the singles OU(Among Others) Sun/Moon Showdown Tier list due to not being obtainable, why are QR pokemon like Swinub and Totodile allowed to have their Hidden Ability while it is not capable of occuring in Game?? (QR pokemon cannot have an SOS chain thus no HA's) Noone else in ANY thread has responded to this question so I would really appreciate a response.