Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

macle

expert in crunching numbers and crushing rivals
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#1

Welcome to the Gen 7 Metagame Discussion Thread!

In this thread you can talk about the state of the meta, what mons you find broken, new sets that you found, and other various topics. I'll try to have a general overall topic to talk about every couple of weeks.

Current Topic:

Old Topics:
Porygon
Cutiefly
 
Last edited by a moderator:

macle

expert in crunching numbers and crushing rivals
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#2

Extreme Evoboost is Eevee's Z move. It gives Eevee +2 in all its stats. This is an insanely good move and might be broken! The downside to using the move Extreme Evoboost is that you can't use Evolite but the stat boosts could potentially outweigh that lose.

What are your thoughts?
 

GOAO

Tournament Banned
#3
first impressions:
eevee is stupid, just swept OP with it and ZF as well (with doduo's help). sub BJ doduo is good as f, gets free subs on a lot of things.
BP doenst even need a test, jun ban it. totally stupid. i used a cm taunt abra to ct ZF and he won cause stupid strats.
 
#5
Yeah. BP is just kind of broken even from theory with the way Z moves and such have changed the metagame. I hate banning moves, but this is a case where it is probably needed.
 

Fiend

the hound.
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#8
Four quick things:

Mudbray is surprisingly hard to KO without a Gastly / Abra / Water-type. BJ is effectively a Shellder counter ffs. It is probably my favorite thing to abuse though, and nothing is really ready to take it on currently.

Cutiefly seems to only be good at passing off stats, and even then only so often. I like it a lot!

BP and Eevee seem busted, and rather hard to even counter team. BP teams have way too much utility now, and way too much bulk. And Eevee has a decent amount of set up chances, and can quick pass away or wallbreak itself. Unless we are overlooking something, granted we assuredly are so quickly, both are broken and really not fun to play against.

Pikipek is near worthless (in the current meta at least). It doesn't KO mudbray, and the bulky stuff seen currently eat it alive. And the offensive metagame that we have off the bat leaves it almost unable to even attack all but 10% of the time.

But the metagame isn't even really ready for us to make any calls on, since half the stuff we know is good we are not using, and only about 18 Pokemon are seeing some usage. Right now it's so oriented around having RK potential plus a sweeper and some cool mons that the meta is absurdly offensive and not how it will be in even a week. Still, fuck BP.
 

zf

take it easy, amigo
is a Tiering Contributor
#12
Eevee: Nothing about this mon is healthy. Being able to boost to +2 in everything in single turn is overpowered, even with the limit of needing an item and Last Resort, and it can just pass boosts out to a better receiver (Porygon) if it can't beat something. It should be banned ASAP because there is minimal counterplay and it's strangling the meta.

Full Baton Pass Chains: This was a fringe strategy in ORAS, but it's damn near unbeatable in SuMo. There is a very small list of mons that actually win against a properly played fullpass team right now, and I'd only call 1 of them (Munchlax) remotely viable. I've been testing with people all night and it's gone ~10-1 against people like Star OP and Shrug. This should be next on the list of suspects and should be banned before SPL.
texmex (Torchic) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Speed Boost
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 116 Def / 236 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Substitute
- Protect
- Baton Pass

ban me (Cutiefly) @ Eviolite
Ability: Shield Dust
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 196 Def / 116 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Quiver Dance
- Roost
- Baton Pass

rofl xd (Mienfoo) @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 196 Def / 116 SpD
Calm Nature
- Drain Punch
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Baton Pass

shoutouts lcpl (Munna) @ Eviolite
Ability: Synchronize
Level: 5
EVs: 228 HP / 156 Def / 76 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Barrier
- Moonlight
- Baton Pass

gg good meta (Gothita) @ Life Orb
Ability: Shadow Tag
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 240 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Energy Ball
- Hidden Power [Poison]
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave

cbb (Grimer-Alola) @ Eviolite
Ability: Poison Touch
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 36 Atk / 196 Def / 196 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Poison Jab
- Pursuit
- Knock Off
- Memento

I can't really speak much to the other new mons since this meta is drowning in Eevee abuse, but Mudbray, Cutiefly, and Mareanie all look promising.
 
#13
Type: Null needs to be banned from LC. 95 base stats across the board except for Speed is overpowered.

EDIT: It's Genderless and probably can't be obtained that early anyway, so it wouldn't be usable.
 

tahu

Within me there grows a rhythmic savage beast
is a Pre-Contributor
#16
In the midst of all the hype surrounding new mons and old mons with new toys, it's been kind of overlooked that Scraggy became significantly better with the generation shift. It didn't actually get anything new, but a lot of its checks became less viable. Most notably, the nerf to Gale Wings made Fletchling more or less unviable as a check, while the nerf to Prankster means that Cottonee no longer threatens Scraggy if it runs Poison Jab. Pretty much every other check to Scraggy gets boned by Calm Mind Gothita, a proven core from XY. Once the more ridiculous stuff gets the boot, I can see Scraggy easily being a top-tier threat similar to when it was allowed in BW.
 
#17
Some initial thoughts. QDfly is not as busted as I thought it would be. Its low offensive stats and it dieing to literally everything make it less op as everyone was saying. Mudbray is super good and tanks nearly everything and can dish out huge amounts of damage with that base 100 atk stat. I can definitly see Mudbray in A to A+ range. Scraggy + Goth combo is stupidly good and as tahu said, it can easily become a top tier threat. Doduo was another mon that a lot of people were hyping, but with Scraggy being super good you basically need to run scarf on it for a bird spam team to work. Snow is pretty good from what I have seen and will be played a lot more than it used to. Finally, as zf said full bp is pretty insane now and is very hard to stop.

will probably write a more comprehensive list with thoughts on each mon after ive actually tested everything.

Edit: also dark spam is a lot better after the dark type buff.
 
Last edited:
#18
Has no one tried Pancham yet? He alone gets access to Z-Parting Shot, which is probably the most ridiculous Z-Move this side of Extreme Evoboost. Slow switch, lowering both of the opponent's offensive stats, and 100% healing for the replacement, without Self-KOing?

Pancham @ Darknium Z
Level: 5
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 180 Atk / 100 Def / 212 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Brave Nature
- Parting Shot
- Gunk Shot
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch / Circle Throw / Sunny Day

You've seen it before, it's just regular Pivot Pancham with reduced Speed to ensure Z-Parting Shot goes last. Lack of Eviolite makes him lean more towards Utility than Pivot (hence Circle Throw or Sunny Day), but he can still Gunk Shot incoming Fairies and Knock Off items from everybody. Since Z-Crystals can't get removed, Pancham can even switch into Knock Offs with few worries as well. Oh, and regular Parting Shot still has it's use as well if you're sensing a switch early in the match.

But Z-Parting Shot is something else. The combination of 100% heal plus your opponent being weakened is huge - they'll be forced to switch, set up, or take a pot shot at you while you can sub or setup. If you've ever wanted a team with two of the same Pokemon, this is how you do it.

Abra and Gastly get to come in after getting hit and and even get an easy Sub up?
Pawniard, Scraggy, Timburr, and Mudbray all get a second lease on life?
Drilbur, Ferroseed, and Dwebble get to lay hazards again after they were removed?
Bellsprout and Bulbasaur get to go on two Chlorophyll sweeps?
Fletchling gets Gale Wings regenerated?
Tirtouga, Dwebble, and Onix get to rely on Sturdy thrice?
All without purposefully sacrificing a Pokemon?

Z-Parting Shot basically merges the important parts of Healing Wish and Memento into one move but REMOVES the Self-KO component, allowing Pancham to use it whenever it would create the most momentum but without reducing his own usefulness.

*Z-Memento isn't quite as good because you're trading up a 17% additional decrease in attacking stats for an entire Pokemon. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Z-Memento Diglett gets banned thanks to Arena Trap.
 
#19
Right now everyone is using their favorite new offensive pokemon so it is time for someone to shine brightly.



Abra @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SpA / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Psyshock / HP Fighting
- Psych Up

Focus Sash + Magic Guard is still the same "OH SHIT" stop to sweepers without multi hit moves. Psychic is stab and Dazzling gleam is needed just to hit dark types (especially Scraggy right now). Psych Up + Psyshock is a reaction to the Metagame. If Cutifly manages to get QuiverPass off or CM Gothita gets up +6 you have a hope to beat them while normal Abra just loses. It's also really good against SS sweepers like Omanyte and Tirtouga (watch out for AJ). HP Fighting is always an option if your team is weak to Pawniard.
 

Jac

An eternity in Puyo Hell
is a Battle Server Moderator
#20
hiya

im bad but i still had some fun thanks to mad0ka rhydonphilip and PD for testin with me



Sylvia (Morelull) (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Effect Spore
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Def / 76 SpA / 156 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Strength Sap
- Thunder Wave / Moonblast

+ 16/16 defenses
+ Resistances: Dark, Electric, Fighting, Grass, Ground, Water cute as fuck
+ Double "Powder" makes it really feel like a mushroom and Twave while being less accurate nails Overcoat mons and Grass-types
- SLOW
- WEAK TO SO MUCH AHH double weakness to Poison really hurts


Asmuth (Geodude-Alola) (M) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Galvanize
Level: 5
EVs: 240 Atk / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge / Rock Slide
- Volt Switch

+ Great Coverage
+ Return is weaker than Double-Edge but you dont lose HP for using it
+ Return is weaker than SelfDestruct/Explosion but you dont lose your Geodude for using it
+ Slow VS to a sweeper yas
- You see this typing tho?
- Seriously this is bad but it has a few cute things to it



Shirayuki (Vulpix-Alola) (F) @ Icy Rock
Ability: Snow Warning
Level: 5
EVs: 200 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Moonblast
- Blizzard
- Ice Shard

OO: Aurora Veil, Encore, Substitute + Disable (coming soon), Hex (also coming soon bc im trash)

+ PERFECT COVERAGE
+ STAB prio tho
? TECHNICALLY IT HAS LESS WEAKNESSES THAN SNOVER AND AMAURA BUT WE CANT REALLY ACCEPT THAT POINT CAN WE??
- Doesnt have cute resistances like Snover or Amaura
- 17 speed is so ahhh frustrating


Toxxix (Mareanie) @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 100 Def / 12 SpA / 180 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Venoshock / Sludge Wave
- Recover
- Toxic Spikes / Haze


+ CUTE but rip no sprite yet
+ 14/14 defenses arent bad and get the job done
+ Regen + 50% recovery is gdlk
+ Venoshock ensures it's not getting fucked with but is inconstant if the enemy has a cleric or you aint poisonin shit run some trappers yall
- No answers for Gunk like shit it's stuck vs Gunk
- Trapped
 
#21
So, uh, I liked Stufful. Yeah, that thing can sponge a lot of non-Fire physical attacks, has a good setup move (Bulk Up) for get some extra physical bulk, good moves and coverage options (Brick Break, Close Combat, Earthquake, Thunder/Ice Punch, Rock Slide) and can reach Timburr's bulk (14/14) with the correct EV spread and nature. Its 70 Base HP is very good for a bulky set, and it's defensive stats aren't awful. The only disadvantage about it's movepool is that Stufful doesn't have reliable recovery, apart from Rest, so it's forced to bring Berry Juice to recover health and keep receiving attacks, also, it doesn't have good STAB moves, like DPunch.
 
Last edited:

macle

expert in crunching numbers and crushing rivals
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#23
The new topic is new pokemon!

What new mons have been working well for you? Which ones have been sorta of a disappointment?
 
#24
Lets talk about the mon most of us already faced against and think it's too insane:



Kingler12345 and i have used this thing perhaps a little bit too much. But as much as I love this virus, it's insane.

Porygon @ Normalium Z
Ability: Download
Level: 5
EVs: 36 Def / 240 SpA / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Tri Attack
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Conversion


This set is one of the 2 most dangerous sets, the mon simply needs rocks on the field and something to set up against(aka all mons in the meta that aren't a Fight type, Mudbray with Fight cover, have Whirlwind, Roar/Clear Smog or if you are creative, Yawn. The moment it's set up, you essentially get to 1HKO everything in the metagame while the opponat hopelessly tries to kill it with priority. Tri Attack 1HKO's almost all pokemon that don't resist/are immune against it with the exception of Munchlax and a few Bulkier Fight types. Bulkier fight types/Rock types are 1HKO'd by Psychic.
HP Fire simply finishes all that remains in Magnemite, Pawniard, Honedge, Ferroseed, Pumpkaboo-S and Klink(who will be a slight bit more relevant after it gets the moves). Sturdy mons can't do much thanks to SR. Scarfed pokemon still are an issue as well as faster offensive pokemon like Scarfed Doduo/Mienfoo, but those are worn so damn easly that it's a joke. Encore Cottonee is cute.
I love Porygon and I don't want it gone. But if it takes little to no efford and forces scarfed mons even on teams that need bulky Mienfoo or such. No thanks.


Porygon @ Normalium Z
Ability: Download
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 36 Def / 156 SpA / 116 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tri Attack
- Psychic
- Recover
- Conversion


Know how I said it loses Scarfed mons/priority, yea no. with the exception of Scarfed Mienfoo you did need an insanely offensive combination in Scarfed Doduo + mach Punch from Timburr to potentially knock it out. Recover with this much defense allowes you to 1v1 win vs any pawniard and any priority user set under the assumption your opponant doesn't flinch you to death with Scarf. Yea you don't 1HKO Ferroseed but in the 30+ battles I have done in and outside of ladder I have not seen a single Ferroseed, Munchlax or Honedge (or Frillish). Not too representive as people still have to find stuff to use against it, but it's a notice.
 
#25
The new topic is new pokemon!

What new mons have been working well for you? Which ones have been sorta of a disappointment?
On paper I thought Mudbray was going to be almost immediately snatched up as one of the monsters of LC; 70/70/70 bulk, 100 Attack, STAB EQ, and Close Combat as a coverage move. Its unique ability Stamina is what really convinced me, gaining bonus defense as a reward for getting hit. I thought "this thing could singlehandedly shut down Mienfoo". Then I realised that while those few things it does have are very impressive, it doesn't have much else. Its speed is decent but nothing great, it completely lacks priority as well as any coverage outside of Fighting, Rock, and Steel. It doesn't get many great status moves either, just the usuals like Toxic, Rest, Protect. The whole anti-Mienfoo deal isn't very useful either, since Mudbray itself has a counter in Gastly, who is immune to both Earthquake and Close Combat, and doesn't care one bit for any bonus defense and can hit Mudbray with Energy Ball. I suppose Mudbray does get access to Heavy Slam, and Gastly is extremely light so it would be very handy, but Mudbray still doesn't live up to the expectations I had for it.
 
Last edited: