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Mid-Game Evolutions: Do we like them or not?
- Thread starter Frosty
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I have absolutely no problems with evolving mid battle, as long as it doesnt breaks the battle's rules.
Turning your Squirtle on sendout into Wartortle for a LC match = Illegal
Turning your Squirtle on sendout into Wartortle for a NFE match = Legal
In order to evolve, the mon needs to have battled in it's current evolutionary stage at least once though.
Turning your Squirtle on sendout into Wartortle for a LC match = Illegal
Turning your Squirtle on sendout into Wartortle for a NFE match = Legal
In order to evolve, the mon needs to have battled in it's current evolutionary stage at least once though.
a) Mid-Battle evolutions should be kept.
b) We need to change nothing.
c) In an LC battle, only LC mons are allowed. If you evolve an LC mon to an FE or ME mon in an LC battle, that pokemon is automatically KO'd and you forfeit all counters that pokemon would have received that battle. In an NFE battle, only NFE mons are allowed. If you evolve an NFE mon to an FE mon in an NFE battle, that pokemon is automatically KO'd and you forfeit all counters that pokemon would have received that battle.
d) We need evolution requirements clarified. Big bold italicized letters (or something) explaining evolution in ASB. Include that the pokemon needs to battle at least once in its current stage before it can evolve to its next stage and that it cannot jump a stage even though its EC is maxed (sorry, this is not Digimon. Warp Evolutions not allowed (until gen 8 the way gen 6 is looking)). State what is considered a battle (since factories are not).
b) We need to change nothing.
c) In an LC battle, only LC mons are allowed. If you evolve an LC mon to an FE or ME mon in an LC battle, that pokemon is automatically KO'd and you forfeit all counters that pokemon would have received that battle. In an NFE battle, only NFE mons are allowed. If you evolve an NFE mon to an FE mon in an NFE battle, that pokemon is automatically KO'd and you forfeit all counters that pokemon would have received that battle.
d) We need evolution requirements clarified. Big bold italicized letters (or something) explaining evolution in ASB. Include that the pokemon needs to battle at least once in its current stage before it can evolve to its next stage and that it cannot jump a stage even though its EC is maxed (sorry, this is not Digimon. Warp Evolutions not allowed (until gen 8 the way gen 6 is looking)). State what is considered a battle (since factories are not).
my question is very simply why do we actually need this mechanic. Do you:
a) get a raging hard-on at the thought of being a giant douche and using a colossoil in an lc match
b) stroke your meat at the thought of saving 1 uc so much so that it's worth being down by 20 EN in a serious match
c) really need to evolve your NFE in a friendly and it JUST CAN'T WAIT (but it could wait enough for you to not use 1 fucking uc on it)
These are the only three perks which mid-battle evolutions provide. If you're like me, that list is pretty unimpressive, which makes me wonder why we're keeping around a highly confusing mechanic which slows down matches and goes against established game mechanics
a) get a raging hard-on at the thought of being a giant douche and using a colossoil in an lc match
b) stroke your meat at the thought of saving 1 uc so much so that it's worth being down by 20 EN in a serious match
c) really need to evolve your NFE in a friendly and it JUST CAN'T WAIT (but it could wait enough for you to not use 1 fucking uc on it)
These are the only three perks which mid-battle evolutions provide. If you're like me, that list is pretty unimpressive, which makes me wonder why we're keeping around a highly confusing mechanic which slows down matches and goes against established game mechanics
I dont like havine mid battle evolutions since you run an evolved version of your mon that hasn't seen approval yet, usually not a big deal for more veteran players, but i could see this already confusing concept end up causing more problems for newer players. I'd like to see it abolished.
I dont really care for the mechanic, at all, but did that ever happen before? Every single time i saw someone trying to do that, it wasnt allowed.
Really? I ca think of a match where a certain "LC" team suddenly included a Duclohm and a Piloswine. Which, for the record, is not fun.
Mid Battle Evos introduce complex mechanics, and uncertaincy on both the accuracy of a profile, and what mons your opponent will send out. It's unfair and should be removed.
Well, i dont remember it :P
If we do end up keeping that, then we must at least make a rule to forbiden that sort of thing.
Mid Battle Evolutions provide a rare opportunity. Apart from obviously getting stronger, some Pokemon also change type. Which has such a unique niche that shouldn't be ignored. Not just on send out; mid-battle. That's when it gets the best use.
Ex. Crustle: Rock Blast *3
Scyther: Evolve ~ Metal Claw *2
That said, evolving to a stage above the max. stage (Collossoil in NFE, Midstages in LC) is a douche move and is the one we should be banning.
Ex. Crustle: Rock Blast *3
Scyther: Evolve ~ Metal Claw *2
That said, evolving to a stage above the max. stage (Collossoil in NFE, Midstages in LC) is a douche move and is the one we should be banning.
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Objection said:
If this hasn't been the case this whole time I'll eat my figurative hat.
Honestly, evolving mid-battle does have a place. It feels good; and it requires that you bring a weaker pokemon than you normally would otherwise. With the quoted rule in place, whats the issue?
Pretty much my opinion in a nutshell. I don't see problems with evolving mid battle so long as it doesn't go above the max limit of evolutions.
If we're going to allow mid-battle evolution like this, could we please make it force a cooldown on the next action like a combo because getting an actually-permanent boost to your stats and possibly some pretty good abilities and a useful new typing is at least as powerful than the average combo.
But honestly, I'd rather either rule that a Pokemon must still do a complete battle at least once in a stage before it can evolve to the next one and that it can't evolve beyond a stage permitted by the rules of the battle, or just remove the capability entirely.
Don't forget the new attacks you're getting
Really I've never been a fan of mid-battle evolution, it always seemed like a way to loophole your way out of the "you must use this poke in at least one battle" rule that we have, it doesn't even follows anime logic that the Pokemon must have battle a little bit before evolving (though it could be made that you need to have been out one round in order to evolve, no Hp gain in case this raises, that I could support).
Really I've never been a fan of mid-battle evolution, it always seemed like a way to loophole your way out of the "you must use this poke in at least one battle" rule that we have, it doesn't even follows anime logic that the Pokemon must have battle a little bit before evolving (though it could be made that you need to have been out one round in order to evolve, no Hp gain in case this raises, that I could support).
The main problems I can see thus far, skimming through the discussions, are:
As for the 2nd point, what I'm about to suggest is: you Pokemon will have nothing changed except its base stats and Abilities upon evolution. Sure, it's a pain in the referee's ass, having to DAT-check the evolved-mon's statistics, but that, at least, referees can do. Referees should not, however, root through veekun/bulba just to see if Scyther gets Bullet Punch for free upon evolution to Scizor, IMO. That task falls to the PCT approvers.
To add on that the -20 EN cost is too small a price to pay, I am thinking that an evolved mon retains it's HP (i.e. if you evolve a 100 HP Colosshale, it becomes a Colossoil at 100 HP, not 120) while paying somewhere between 40 and 50 EN as the price. G6 was on a pretty good track there, up in the 3rd post ITT.
As to why I'm personally willing to suggest going out on a limb and complicating the "Mid-battle evolution" issue, it is none other than - guess what - ASB's adherence to in-anime precedence. Please, if I may, this is Anime-Style Battling. While yes, mid-battle evolutions are uncommon, they do happen - probably just as often (or not) in anime episodes as they do here on the forums. We should provide battlers the option and try futilely (I put "futilely" because we are humans not computers) to balance it, not reject it out of hand because balancing it is difficult in the extreme (hint: not impossible).
- The fact that you're supposed to fight in an LC/NFE match with your Colosshale but suddenly you just evolved it mid-battle to a Colossoil and proceeded to thrash your opponent's helpless LCs/NFEs.
- The fact that your LC lacked the coverage in an NFE match but it would if it were to evolve, so you evolved it just to get those moves and thrash your opponent's helpless LCs/NFEs in a comeback.
As for the 2nd point, what I'm about to suggest is: you Pokemon will have nothing changed except its base stats and Abilities upon evolution. Sure, it's a pain in the referee's ass, having to DAT-check the evolved-mon's statistics, but that, at least, referees can do. Referees should not, however, root through veekun/bulba just to see if Scyther gets Bullet Punch for free upon evolution to Scizor, IMO. That task falls to the PCT approvers.
To add on that the -20 EN cost is too small a price to pay, I am thinking that an evolved mon retains it's HP (i.e. if you evolve a 100 HP Colosshale, it becomes a Colossoil at 100 HP, not 120) while paying somewhere between 40 and 50 EN as the price. G6 was on a pretty good track there, up in the 3rd post ITT.
As to why I'm personally willing to suggest going out on a limb and complicating the "Mid-battle evolution" issue, it is none other than - guess what - ASB's adherence to in-anime precedence. Please, if I may, this is Anime-Style Battling. While yes, mid-battle evolutions are uncommon, they do happen - probably just as often (or not) in anime episodes as they do here on the forums. We should provide battlers the option and try futilely (I put "futilely" because we are humans not computers) to balance it, not reject it out of hand because balancing it is difficult in the extreme (hint: not impossible).
The big reason for why we included mid-game evolution was to simulate anime precedent, little doubt on it. However, I think we really failed to catch the meaning of it in the way we ruled it in. I really don't like the way the current system trivializes evolutions, and tbh I don't like the fact they are treated as moves.
In my opinion, if we wanted to reflect the majority of anime-inspired mid-game evolutions, the evolution should be treated akin to a switch phase. When the player gets the chance to order first, he can decide whether or not to evolve his Pokemon. Also, this shouldn't be allowed on the 1st round since it'd be just stupid (it's like using the evolved mon from the getgo, not a "mid-game" evolution). If we decide for this, then 20 energy cost seems appropriate to me. Using mid-game evo this way would greatly reduce its disruptive potential and would probably make it look more like the anime (think the Gym battle vs Sabrina, or many other instances - the Pokemon rarely evolves in the middle of an attack if I recall correctly, there's always some sort of "pause")
In my opinion, if we wanted to reflect the majority of anime-inspired mid-game evolutions, the evolution should be treated akin to a switch phase. When the player gets the chance to order first, he can decide whether or not to evolve his Pokemon. Also, this shouldn't be allowed on the 1st round since it'd be just stupid (it's like using the evolved mon from the getgo, not a "mid-game" evolution). If we decide for this, then 20 energy cost seems appropriate to me. Using mid-game evo this way would greatly reduce its disruptive potential and would probably make it look more like the anime (think the Gym battle vs Sabrina, or many other instances - the Pokemon rarely evolves in the middle of an attack if I recall correctly, there's always some sort of "pause")
What about only allowing evolution when a mon is KOd, or it's below 10% of its health? Considering you're having to bring a weaker mon to the battle and that the evolution is permanent, the versatility gained isn't more than bringing it in the first case. The conditions listed above for when an evolution can occur puts it down to gimmick level, like Wonder Room, while still keeping the flavor and making it a sometimes-viable option.
I would enjoy if we were to combine the above suggestions. Turning the evolution into a switch phase , but only if the pokemon is considerably weakened or even tired, as thats how it tends to work in the anime (With a few exceptions, such as Sabrina's Abra and Ash's Krabby).
Allowing evolution for 20 energy when the pokemon is at or below 50% HP seems reasonable.
On a side note, if the pokemon changes base HP upon evolving, i suggest the pokemon to keep the HP percentage it had (For example, a 45 HP Mankey becomes a 50 HP Primeape upon evolution), as thats closer to in-game, where the pokemon heals a bit upon evolving.
Allowing evolution for 20 energy when the pokemon is at or below 50% HP seems reasonable.
On a side note, if the pokemon changes base HP upon evolving, i suggest the pokemon to keep the HP percentage it had (For example, a 45 HP Mankey becomes a 50 HP Primeape upon evolution), as thats closer to in-game, where the pokemon heals a bit upon evolving.
Gonna post a basic ballot here, for the time being.
Sheesh that's a lot of things we'd have to sort out if we kept mid-battle evolutions - if anyone wants to figure out how we should group those polls now's a good time to say so.
Anyway, nobody's answered my concerns over the reliability of updated profiles - Unless we say that the ref should have to do more work, and even then they're not guarenteed to be accurate. Still also lacking comments on how it's a cheap way to get out of having to do a battle to evolve - and for those claiming anime precedence, I want anime precedence where a 'mon evolves with no battle experience at all.
Obviously this isn't a final ballot, but it's getting there. if you want to add things to the ballot speak up, but for now continue discussing.
Should Mid-Battle Evolutions be kept?
Yes
No
---IF YES---
When should Mid-Battle Evolutions Occur?
Switch Phase
During actions (Command: Evolve)
Upon Release
How much should a Mid-Battle Evolution Cost?
No Cost
20 EN
40 EN
Should Pre-25 moves be automatically added?
Yes
No
How should we handle the evolution's HP?
Equal Percentage
Increase/Decrease by the evolution's Increase/Decrease in HP
No Change
Yes
No
---IF YES---
When should Mid-Battle Evolutions Occur?
Switch Phase
During actions (Command: Evolve)
Upon Release
How much should a Mid-Battle Evolution Cost?
No Cost
20 EN
40 EN
Should Pre-25 moves be automatically added?
Yes
No
How should we handle the evolution's HP?
Equal Percentage
Increase/Decrease by the evolution's Increase/Decrease in HP
No Change
Sheesh that's a lot of things we'd have to sort out if we kept mid-battle evolutions - if anyone wants to figure out how we should group those polls now's a good time to say so.
Anyway, nobody's answered my concerns over the reliability of updated profiles - Unless we say that the ref should have to do more work, and even then they're not guarenteed to be accurate. Still also lacking comments on how it's a cheap way to get out of having to do a battle to evolve - and for those claiming anime precedence, I want anime precedence where a 'mon evolves with no battle experience at all.
Obviously this isn't a final ballot, but it's getting there. if you want to add things to the ballot speak up, but for now continue discussing.
Not that I deeply want to get involved in this, but if you are questioning the validity of an evolution in a battle, could you not just... You know, get an independent approver into the thread to check the validity of the evolution? Sure, it might be time consuming, but you can ensure if the approver looks properly that they can spot potential errors & all... You could also compensate by giving them 0.1 UC for their time, but yeah... This is not the best way to fix that problem, but all I am doing is throwing something out there. :|
Oh god I am new and about to give my opinion please don't hurt me too badly.
While I do not like the MidBattle Evolution too much, it does happen in the anime from time to time. I know Dogfish put up a poll but someone mentioned this in IRC ( I don't remember who said it I'm sorry for not remembering your name ;w; ).
'How about a pokemon cannot evolve mid battle until it has a knock out?'
This solves the 'evolving upon switch out' because that cant happen unless the mere sight of it knocks out the pokemon.
I don't like it being a command either; but as a switch ( usually in the anime there is like 'OMG HOLY SHIT X IS EVOLVING' and everyone halts the battle for a second ) could simulate that. Gives the opponent a chance to switch to counter an evolved one with a fresh pokemon if they need.
Since changing type / becoming an evolved forme could swing the battle in a huge way, and doing this saves you a UC, a 40 EN cost is easily justifiable. Plus you can chill and regain energy back, deal some more damage before falling and next pokemon goes out.
Maybe if it has above 50% HP, the EN cost is 40, below 50% the EN Cost is 20?
As for Pre25 moves, no. Just makes more work for the referee, changes the flow of the battle too much if the pokemon gets all these flashy ass moves from evolving. It's just tedious sounding, causes more work.
Granted I do realize that in games, when you level up after defeating an opponent you are asked to learn new moves ( if you can learn them ) and you evolve after the match ( where my suggestion is sort of the opposite of how it's done in game ) but uh. I don't know what that was for, maybe just a fun observation. You can ignore this paragraph if you want.
I support this statement as well.
And this one.
Because this is long and fluffy I will condense my post so my position is clear:
Should Mid-Battle Evolutions be kept?
Yes
---IF YES---
When should Mid-Battle Evolutions Occur?
Switch Phase
How much should a Mid-Battle Evolution Cost?
20 EN for BELOW 50% HP
40 EN for ABOVE 50% HP
Should Pre-25 moves be automatically added?
No
How should we handle the evolution's HP?
Equal Percentage
Additional
Evolving cannot break battle rules ( no mid stage in LC, etc )
Only able to evolve after pokemon has scored a knock out
Thank you for your consideration, critisisms, and responses.
While I do not like the MidBattle Evolution too much, it does happen in the anime from time to time. I know Dogfish put up a poll but someone mentioned this in IRC ( I don't remember who said it I'm sorry for not remembering your name ;w; ).
'How about a pokemon cannot evolve mid battle until it has a knock out?'
This solves the 'evolving upon switch out' because that cant happen unless the mere sight of it knocks out the pokemon.
I don't like it being a command either; but as a switch ( usually in the anime there is like 'OMG HOLY SHIT X IS EVOLVING' and everyone halts the battle for a second ) could simulate that. Gives the opponent a chance to switch to counter an evolved one with a fresh pokemon if they need.
Since changing type / becoming an evolved forme could swing the battle in a huge way, and doing this saves you a UC, a 40 EN cost is easily justifiable. Plus you can chill and regain energy back, deal some more damage before falling and next pokemon goes out.
Maybe if it has above 50% HP, the EN cost is 40, below 50% the EN Cost is 20?
As for Pre25 moves, no. Just makes more work for the referee, changes the flow of the battle too much if the pokemon gets all these flashy ass moves from evolving. It's just tedious sounding, causes more work.
Granted I do realize that in games, when you level up after defeating an opponent you are asked to learn new moves ( if you can learn them ) and you evolve after the match ( where my suggestion is sort of the opposite of how it's done in game ) but uh. I don't know what that was for, maybe just a fun observation. You can ignore this paragraph if you want.
I support this statement as well.
And this one.
Because this is long and fluffy I will condense my post so my position is clear:
Should Mid-Battle Evolutions be kept?
Yes
---IF YES---
When should Mid-Battle Evolutions Occur?
Switch Phase
How much should a Mid-Battle Evolution Cost?
20 EN for BELOW 50% HP
40 EN for ABOVE 50% HP
Should Pre-25 moves be automatically added?
No
How should we handle the evolution's HP?
Equal Percentage
Additional
Evolving cannot break battle rules ( no mid stage in LC, etc )
Only able to evolve after pokemon has scored a knock out
Thank you for your consideration, critisisms, and responses.
@Sergetank - I agree that we should, if we keep mid-battle evos, have to wait until a KO has been scored, at very least. Also, I'm editing out your ballot - Only the 9 council members vote in the voting thread that will be made once discussion closes, and the ballot I tossed up was only for the purpose of making sure it would cover everything, and that nobody wanted to add to the final ballot the council will use. - scratch that I can't read. Thanks for bringing up the rule-breaking evolutions as well, that will be added to the final ballot =)
@Its_A_Random - Would the person be expected to contact an approver then? Eh, I guess it could work, but seems more hassle than it's worth.
@Its_A_Random - Would the person be expected to contact an approver then? Eh, I guess it could work, but seems more hassle than it's worth.
Dogfish - that's a pretty decent ballot. Long as it seems, at least it covers all facets being discussed in this thread. Also, I'm agreeing that asking an approver to validate the evolution mid-battle might draw out the battle, stretch the DQ, and cause itches. Aside from the second question in the ballot, I'm against imposing any extra restrictions to mid-battle evolving. Let's face it, you'd only evolve if you're not in a position to win at the current stage (assuming you're evolving "logically and ethically", for lack of better adjectives). So requiring below 50% HP, scoring a KO, or whatnot, merely induces the extra headache when it isn't needed, IMHO. The battle rules have already imposed a strict enough constraint on the circumstances when you can evolve.
Well, this is probably one of the best Discussion threads we have in at Policy, if not the best. Sorry if I can't pour out champagne for y'all.
A 48-hour window, until we move to Voting. If you feel that there's something being overlooked, bring it forward.
Well, this is probably one of the best Discussion threads we have in at Policy, if not the best. Sorry if I can't pour out champagne for y'all.
A 48-hour window, until we move to Voting. If you feel that there's something being overlooked, bring it forward.
I don't like the way you formed that ballot, Dogfish, for a very simple reason. The answer to each subject is completely conditional to the ones to the other subjects. For example, one may deem 20 energy a reasonable cost, but only if the evolution is a switch phase (if it were easier to evolve, the en cost should be higher). Voting this way we may end up with an overpowered (or underpowered) solution which doesn't reflect anyone's comprehensive preference.
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