Milotic (QC 4/4) (GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Ace Emerald, Dec 12, 2012.

  1. Ace Emerald

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    [Overview]

    <p>The UnderUsed tier is filled to the brim with bulky Water-types, and all of them fill some sort of niche the others lack; Blastoise has the valuable Rapid Spin, Slowbro and Slowking boast Fighting-type resistances and nearly endless recovery with Regenerator, Suicune has more overall bulk than all its competitors, and Empoleon and Swampert have unique typings and access to Stealth Rock. It's getting harder to see the niche Milotic holds, but it alone has access to instant recovery and spectacular Special Defense with a pure Water typing. This mean that it fills a role similar to Slowking's, but it trades Regenerator for a neutrality to Heracross's Megahorn, Yanmega's Bug Buzz, and most importantly, Chandelure's Shadow Ball. Also, unlike many bulky Waters-types, it has a decent base Speed. Despite having a rather weak Defense, Milotic can still be used on any team needing a check to several of the tier's top threats, but if you're looking for a hard counter, you should look elsewhere.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Physically Defensive
    move 1: Scald
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Haze / Dragon Tail
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Marvel Scale
    nature: Bold
    evs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Despite having a low base Defense, Milotic's pure Water typing, which gives it neutrality to almost all common physical attacks, makes it an acceptable choice for a physical tank. Scald provides Milotic with a useful STAB move while also packing the burn chance that can cripple almost any physical attacker (Pokemon with the Guts ability being the exception). Once burned, even the strongest physical attackers, such as Mienshao, struggle to break Milotic. Recover is another vital move; it allows Milotic to stall any burned physical attacker and heal damage taken from switching into powerful physical attackers such as Darmanitan. Ice Beam lets Milotic check several important physical attackers, specifically Flygon and Tornadus, and also deals super effective damage to Grass-types that switch into it. However, the high Special Defense of UU's Grass-types and Milotic's uninvested Special Attack mean the overall effectiveness of the hit is low. Haze makes Milotic a good counter to some setup sweepers, such as Bulk Up Scrafty and Swords Dance Bisharp. Dragon Tail can be used instead to increase passive damage taken by entry hazards and phaze Pokemon that try to force Milotic out, but its low Base Power means that Milotic can no longer reliably check Substitute sweepers.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>As this set aims to take as many physical attacks as possible, its Defense is maximized. Milotic can also run a specially defensive set of 248 HP / 196 Def / 56 SpD / 8 Spe with a Calm nature to take special hits, such as Chandelure's Energy Ball and Yanmega's Bug Buzz, a little better. However, the difference is so little that it usually isn't worth the extra damage Milotic now takes from Darmanitan and Victini's powerful physical Fire-type moves. Grass-types are Milotic's biggest enemy as they don't fear Scald, take very little from Ice Beam, and force Milotic out of battle with their super effective STAB moves. Roserade has a 4x resistance to Grass-types' STABs, threatens them with a super effective STAB Sludge Bomb, and can support its team with Spikes and sometimes Aromatherapy, which can heal Milotic of crippling status. Umbreon is a great special wall that can take special Grass- and Electric-type attacks easily and can also save a statused Milotic with Heal Bell. RestTalk Snorlax is a similarly great special wall, and Choice Band Snorlax can check most special attackers while adding some much-needed power to the team. Even though its Defense is maximized, Milotic still cannot switch into neutral, powerful, STAB moves, namely powerful Fighting-type attacks such as Mienshao's Hi Jump Kick. Cofagrigus is immune to Fighting-type attacks and serves as a secondary physical wall in case Milotic is defeated. Golurk is also immune to Fighting-type attacks, and while it cannot function as a wall due to its low bulk, it can check Electric-type Pokemon and set up Stealth Rock to support its team.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Milotic can run an offensive set as it has good Special Attack and Speed, but it faces competition from Suicune, which can boost its stats with Calm Mind, and Slowbro, which has worse Speed but better coverage. Refresh eliminates any status crippling Milotic without need for team support, but it's hard to fit into a moveslot and Milotic often doesn't get a chance to use extra moves, as it must often heal to be of any use to its team. Dragon Pulse can check bulky Substitute Kingdra that can tank a Dragon Tail, but Haze already does that. Hidden Power Electric allows Milotic to hit Empoleon, but it doesn't do enough damage to be worth the moveslot. Hypnosis can essentially be an OHKO move, but it's very risky due to its low accuracy. Light Screen can provide team support, but without Light Clay, the effect doesn't last very long.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Roserade fears nothing from Milotic; even a Scald burn can be healed with Natural Cure. Once it's in battle, it can start unleashing its powerful STABs or use the opportunity to set up layers of Spikes to damage Milotic's team. Shaymin is even bulkier than Roserade, and it can use Leech Seed to start draining its counters of health or use Seed Flare and hope for a Special Defense drop. Abomasnow can set up a Substitute on Milotic and drain its health with Leech Seed, but it must be careful of Toxic and burns from Scald. Togekiss is a very effective stallbreaker: it can boost its Special Attack with Nasty Plot, heal damage with Roost, and even clear status with Heal Bell. Milotic can prolong the battle with Haze or Dragon Tail, but because it's on the defensive, it will eventually succumb to Togekiss. Raikou and Zapdos can both threaten Milotic with strong STABs, but they hate being burned by Scald and if entry hazards are on the field, Dragon Tail can increase passive damage. Virizion has a super effective Grass-type STAB, great Special Defense, and setup moves that it can use against Milotic, but physical variants must be mindful of Scald burns. The tier's great stallbreakers, Crobat, Sableye, Mew, and Swords Dance Heracross, can all break Milotic, but they all fear a Scald burn bar Guts Heracross. Snorlax can absorb hits with its high Special Defense and hit back with strong, neutral attacks, but offensive variants are crippled by Scald.</p>
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2013
  2. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    I don't think Milotic needs to invest 8 EVs in Speed. Aggron is rare, and Milotic shouldn't switch into it anyway. It's more beneficial to put those 8 EVs in Defense, where Milotic needs all the bulk it can get to eat physical fire attacks more easily.
  3. PK Gaming

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    There's no reason not to run 8 Speed though. 8 EVs in defense will accomplish nothing (it basically provides an inconsequential boost to defense) while the 8 evs guarantee that you outspeed Adamant natured Aggron. Yes, they're rare (i'd say practically non-existent) the guaranteed insurance of outspeeding Adamant Aggron is still a good thing to have on hand. (and its one Milotics best niches over other bulky water-types actually).

    I'm going to test Resttalk (i'm kind of doubting its legitimacy)
  4. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    Suicune almost completely outclasses Milotic as a RestTalker. We should focus on Milotic's role as a defensive pure water pivot with instant recovery, since those characteristics distinguish Milo from her bulky water counterparts.

    I'd also mention that (Toxic) Milotic is a good Cofagrigus switch, since Will-O-Wisp activates her Marvel Scale, and she can proceed to stall him out. Slowbro and Slowking get mauled by Shadow Ball, while other bulky waters don't have access to reliable recovery.
  5. hilarious

    hilarious

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    if nobody minds i think i will take down both the offensive set and rest talk set as i've asked some people and they say no no no. speak now or forever hold your peace!!!!
  6. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    i'm all for ditching both sets, milotic is a worse suicune in both regards even with marvel scale in effect. way more effective to absorb a twave or a wow and just use recover like a man

    all for 8 speed milotic. speed is the "absolute stat" where every number matters every time consistently, and it's not speed creep in this scenario

    how often is refresh really useful? i figure the teams that would most need it would have a cleric

    please don't tell me you meant to leave cute charm as an option on the physically defensive set
  7. hilarious

    hilarious

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    i don't really know what i was thinking when i put refresh i guess i can take it off. it just seems so pretty to put refresh on a pokemon as pretty as milotic...

    i thought i was only supposed to put the ability once. is this not true?!!?!?!
  8. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    Nah, if there is one viable ability for a Pokemon and both are released, you put it on every set. Not putting an ability implies you should use either one for that set.
  9. DestinyUnknown

    DestinyUnknown An obsession with the past is like a dead fly
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    Refresh should (at least) be an AC mention on any set not using ResTalk, and maybe leave it as a slash on the Specially Defensive set as it's actually pretty useful.
  10. kokoloko

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    Ditch the offensive set, not RestTalk though. The metagame is slowing down a ton cause of Chansey, so RestTalk might actually be good again.

    Also Refresh to OO, imo.
  11. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    My question is: Why would anyone use RestTalk Milotic over RestTalk Suicune? Suicune has better overall bulk, and Roar is better than Dragon Tail in most circumstances, especially with SubBoosters like Bisharp running around.
  12. kokoloko

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    Because Milotic is bulkier than Suicune when it's sleeping and Dragon Tail is better is some situations, such as versus Venomoth and Taunt users. It also has slightly higher SpA.
  13. hilarious

    hilarious

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    although i am going to be a bit inactive i will probably finish ALL of my analysis still by tomorrow so yeah (or at least get them to gp stage) i am sorry i have been a lazy ass :ccc
  14. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald The art of the possible
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    Finished the WIP, ready for QC.
  15. kokoloko

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    QC Approved 1/3
  16. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming The truth is in my hands
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    Ice Beam should be slashed over Refresh imo.

    QC APPROVED (2/3)
  17. Ace Emerald

    Ace Emerald The art of the possible
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    lol I honestly don't know how this analysis passed QC, it was partially my fault for not looking at hilarious's work (and a lot my fault for deleting the skeleton, dammit forgot I wasn't supposed to do that) but I changed a few things bringing it into prose so I want an extra QC check if that's cool (seriously though his listed partners for the first set were only Gligar and Hitmontop and he had team comments in the set comments area >.>).
  18. Ernesto

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    I'm kinda conflicted since I don't have much experience using Milotic—in fact, I've used it more on random DPP UU matches than on BW2 UU, lol—, but I'm not really sure we should have two separate sets, especially so since RestTalk isn't gonna be one. However, since it's already this far I guess I won't object to having two sets.

    I'd fix the comparison with Slowking, since the latter doesn't only fear Bug-type moves. I'd put a big mention on Chandelure there.

    I know the -Spe nature is so Dragon Tail hits harder, but the damage is so pitiful I think I'd rather keep a -Atk nature so that Milo always outspeeds Adamant Aggron, no Speed Togekiss, etc. (this one being pretty important with Toxic v. Heal Bell variants, since it can help you win the pp war). I know that onsite Togekiss has Speed investment, so that last point might be moot, but I've found a couple ones running minimum Speed too. I don't really think the -Spe natures are worth a slash, but feel free to disagree with me.

    I'd mention an offensive set in OO, Milo sits at a good speed tier after all and its Special Attack doesn't suck, and say it has competition with Suicune which can actually boost (Milo makes it up by having recovery), and Slowbro which has better coverage but poor Speed—I'm not comparing it to CM Bro because that one's more defensive.

    Finally I'd list Aboma as a check, since it can set up a Sub on Toxic-less variants and annoy the opposing team with Leech Seed. It fears both Toxic and Scald burns, though.

    I think I've run out of ideas, so I'll leave this to someone else who has more experience with Milo.
    [​IMG]
    QC 3/4
  19. Ace Emerald

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  20. Nas

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    Honestly, I don't think we should include the Specially Defensive set since it fails at doing everything it's supposed to do according to the Set Comments. After SR, it's 2HKOed by Specs Chand Shadow Ball, CB Victini V-Create, LO Darm Flare Blitz, and OHKOed by CB Victini Bolt Strike. It also checks DD Kingdra a whopping one time, then dies if the Pokemon brought in by Dragon Tail can KO a 36% (max) Milotic. If Kingdra has Substitute, you don't break it's sub regardless of your nature, and end up being setup bait.

    calcs (open)

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 56+ SpD Milotic: 168-198 (42.74 - 50.38%) -- 49.22% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 196 Def Milotic: 195-231 (49.61 - 58.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 248 HP / 196 Def Milotic: 378-446 (96.18 - 113.48%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 196 Def Milotic: 170-201 (43.25 - 51.14%) -- 64.45% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    +1 252+ Atk Kingdra Outrage vs. 248 HP / 196 Def Milotic: 253-298 (64.37 - 75.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Since you've already written this up, I'd like to wait on a few other QC member's opinions before you remove it, but in the meantime I don't want anybody giving this its last check.
  21. kokoloko

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    That's kinda the problem with Milotic in general, though. The lack of Regenerator or ridiculous bulk + a boosting move makes it a huge momentum killer, which means its unlikely even the physically defensive set is unlikely to be at high enough health to check the physical fires, especially because U-turn is a thing.

    It says right in the overview that Milotic is not a counter to any of these threats anyway (because it isn't regardless of what set its running), so I think this is ok as it is.
  22. Ace Emerald

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    My take on this: the good players in genvuu seemed conflicting on what to do with this thing, and that's probably cause it sucks and its a challenge to make it suck less. So unless there's a clear cut movement in a direction, I'd rather keep it this way. I mean RT I know Sp Def doesn't do that many great things, but neither does physical def and I'd rather be able to check Chandelure a little better cause its scarier than Darm imo. So unless there are any objections, I'd like to just go for a final check and get this over with.
  23. Nas

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    QC Approved 4/4
  24. Ace Emerald

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    Bring on the GP
  25. Rohail

    Rohail Vaporeon <3
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    @Ace Emerald

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    [Overview]

    <p>The UnderUsed tier is filled to the brim with bulky Water-types and all of them fill some sort of niche the others lack; Blastoise has the valuable move Rapid Spin, Slowbro and Slowking boast Fighting resistances and nearly endless recovery with Regenerator, Suicune has more overall bulk than all its competitors, and Empoleon and Swampert have unique typings with and access to Stealth Rock. It's getting harder to see the niche Milotic holds, but it alone has access to instant recovery and spectacular Special Defense with pure Water typing. This mean that it fills a role similar to Slowking's, but it trades Regenerator for a neutrality to Heracross's Megahorn, Yanmega's Bug Buzz, and most importantly, Chandelure's Shadow Ball. Also, unlike many bulky Waters-types, it has a decent base Speed. Despite rather weak Defense, Milotic can still be used on any team needing a check to several of the tier's top threats, though if one is you're looking for a hard counter, one should look elsewhere.</p> ("One" when used as a subject is frowned upon in semi-formal writing)

    [SET]
    name: Physically Defensive
    move 1: Scald
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Haze / Dragon Tail
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Marvel Scale
    nature: Bold
    EVs evs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Despite low base Defense, Milotic's pure Water-typing Water typing, and therefore neutrality to almost all common physical attacks, makes it an acceptable choice for a physical tank. Scald is provides Milotic with a useful not only as a STAB move, but while also packing the burn chance that cripples almost any physical attacker (Pokemon with the Guts ability being the exception). Once burned, even the strongest physical attackers, such as Mienshao, struggle to break Milotic. Recover is another vital move.(RP) It;(semi) it allows Milotic to stall any burned physical attacker and heal damage taken from switching into powerful physical attackers such as Darmanitan. Ice Beam lets Milotic check several important physical attackers, namely Flygon and Tornadus, while and also dealing deals super effective damage to Grass-types that switch into it. However, the high Special Defense of UU's Grass-types and Milotic's uninvested Special Attack means the overall effectiveness of the hit is low. Haze makes Milotic a good counter to some setup sweepers, such as Bulk Up Scrafty and Swords Dance Bisharp. Dragon Tail can be used instead to increase passive damage taken by entry hazards and phaze Pokemon that try to force Milotic out, but its low base power Base Power means that Milotic can no longer reliably check Substitute sweepers.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>As this set aims to take as much many physical abuse attacks as possible, its defense Defense is maximized. Milotic can also run a Special Defensive specially defensive set of 248 HP / 196 Def / 56 SpD / 8 Spe with a Calm nature to take special hits, such as Chandelure's Energy Ball and Yanmega's Bug Buzz, a little better. However, the difference is so little that it usually isn't worth the extra damage Milotic now takes from Darmanitan and Victini's powerful physical Fire-type moves. Grass-types are Milotic's biggest enemy as they don't fear Scald, take very little from Ice Beam, and force Milotic out of battle with super effective STAB moves. Roserade has a 4 times 4x resistance to STAB Grass-types' STABs, threatens them with a super effective STAB Sludge Bomb, and can support its team with Spikes and sometimes Aromatherapy, which can heal Milotic of crippling status. Umbreon is a great special wall that can take special Grass- and Electric-type attacks easily and can also save a statused Milotic with Heal Bell. RestTalk Snorlax is a similarly great special wall, while Choice Band Snorlax can check most special attackers while adding some much needed much-needed power to the team. Even though its Defense is maximized, Milotic still cannot switch into neutral, powerful, STAB moves, namely powerful Fighting-type attacks such as Mienshao's Hi Jump Kick. Cofagrigus is immune to Fighting-type attacks and serves as a secondary physical wall, in case Milotic is defeated. Golurk is also immune to Fighting-type attacks, and while it cannot function as a wall due to low bulk, it can check Electric-type Pokemon and set up Stealth Rock to support its team.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Milotic can run an offensive set as it has good Special Attack and Speed, but it faces competition from Suicune, who can boost its stats with Calm Mind, and Slowbro, which has worse Speed, but better coverage. Refresh eliminates any status crippling Milotic without need for team support, but it's hard to fit into a moveslot and Milotic often doesn't get a chance to use extra moves as it must often heal to continue being effective. Dragon Pulse can check bulky Substitute Kingdras Kingdra that can tank a Dragon Tail, but Haze already does that. HP Hidden Power Electric allows Milotic to hit Empoleon, but it doesn't do enough damage to be worth the moveslot. Hypnosis is essentially a 60% accurate OHKO move, but it's very risky due to its low accuracy. Light Screen can provide team support, but without Light Clay the effect doesn't last very long.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Roserade fears nothing about from Milotic, even the Scald burn can be healed with Natural Cure. Once in battle, it can start spamming powerful STABs or use the opportunity to set up layers of Spikes to damage Milotic's team. Shaymin is even bulkier than Roserade, and it can use Leech Seed to start draining its counters of health, or use Seed Flare and hope for a Special Defense drop. Abomasnow can set up a Substitute on Milotic and drain its health with Leech Seed, but it must be careful of Toxic and Scald burns. Togekiss is a very effective stallbreaker: it can boost its Special Attack with Nasty Plot, heal damage with Roost, and even clear status with Heal Bell. Miltoic can prolong the battle with Haze or Dragon Tail, but as it's on the defensive, it will eventually succumb to Togekiss. Raikou and Zapdos can both threaten Milotic with strong STABs, but they both hate being burned by Scald and if hazards are on the field, Dragon Tail can increase passive damage. Virizion has super effective Grass-type STAB, great Special Defense, and setup moves that it can use against Milotic, but physical variants must be mindful of Scald burns. The tier's great stallbreakers, Crobat, Sableye, Mew, and Swords Dance Heracross, can all break Milotic, but between all except Guts Heracross fear a Scald burn. Snorlax can absorb hits with it's its high Special Defense and hit back with strong neutral attacks, but offensive variants are crippled by Scald.</p>

    Very well done :)

    GP Approved 1/2

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