Ladder Mix and Mega

[1nvalid]

As it stands now, running Lucarionite Terrakion, you probably have earthquake on it, and you never really bother using it. With Parental Bond, that Earthquake is actually a strong move to pick, and if they switch into it, they have to deal with the extra damage. Blissey can tank a Close Combat, but just barely, the 9.8% power increase will make Terrakion much harder to deal with in general. In addition, Terrakion's Quick Attack will actually be worth using because it might actually revenge something you've weakened with the new power. Aggronite Gorgeist is currently a solid check, not so much with that boosted EQ.

I'm opposed to unbanning Kangaskhanite. tbh, I think the tier would be better if Altarianite + Extreme Speed and Pinsirite + Extreme Speed were banned. If those were banned, I don't see Lucario as broken anymore, but Dragonite would still have too powerful of an Extreme Speed from Salamencite. This is just a suggestion, and I know I'm not the first to suggest it.

I like the idea of the tier being balanced by powerful priority, but the priority users are a little too imbalanced. Arcanine, Entei, and Zygarde are too powerful, and they limit what priority a player would pick by being above and beyond the best. with the Espeed complex ban, there would still be powerful priority.
Fake out + Quick Attack Glalite Weavile
Mach Punch from Lucarionite Conkeldurr
Aqua Jet from Mawilite/Medichamite Azumarill
Extreme Speed Arceus.
Extreme Speed Gardevoirite Togekiss

 

[Darth Manaphy]

The only thing that Kangaskhanite loses over like Lucarionite for STAB moves is taking Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin/Iron Barbs damage twice. And we knew that was overcentralizing in the beginning of XY. It's even more overcentralizing now when everyone tries to get different mega stones and doesn't usually have any of those things.

 

[1nvalid]

The only thing that Kangaskhanite loses over like Lucarionite for STAB moves is taking Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin/Iron Barbs damage twice. And we knew that was overcentralizing in the beginning of XY. It's even more overcentralizing now when everyone tries to get different mega stones and doesn't usually have any of those things.

And unless the special attackers all use Grass Knot, they have nothing to fear.

 

[thdhted]

The biggest reason to not bring in Kangaskhanite is that it adds nothing to the meta that would make it more diverse or fun to play. It would overcentralize and make Stall teams almost worthless.

To break off from this type of discussion, I'm gonna share one of my older teams that performed pretty darn consistently. It is a Balance team that proves it does and did work in the Pre-Lucario ban meta.



Victini @ Red Orb
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- V-create
- Bolt Strike
- Blue Flare
- Trick Room

A hard hitter and fantabulous cleaner, this thing has a LOT of surprise factor, if you get off a Trick Room safely, Victini can easily clean up, or even sweep.

Regirock @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

A great lead and amazing check to unboosted sweepers and several common -atespeeders. Required support, but almost always got rocks up and neutered something every game.

Mew @ Sablenite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Calm Mind
- Soft-Boiled
- Psyshock

The focal point of the team, most of it was set up to support a sweep by this guy. Possessing some of the best qualities of suicune and blissey, with only somewhat less bulk than suicune or as good of a typing. It has the reliable recovery and wide movepool of blissey, and nearly the same amount of bulk, and a move that can burn like suicune. Or it can replace Wil-O wisp with a coverage move to surprise potential checks.


Entei @ Pinsirite
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Sacred Fire
- Substitute
- Return

Revenge killer, cleaner, and more. I used Substitute due to Entei's coverag eoptions lacking and due to the switches entei forces.

Togekiss @ Aggronite
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Dazzling Gleam/ Protect
- Roost/ Wish
- Defog
- Heal Bell

Supporter, Defogger, and wall. Posseses a fantastic typing of Fairy/Steel and a decent 120 sp. atk for a wall.

Gengar @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt

One of the more antimeta things I've found, possessing decent speed, passable bulk and offenses and a titanic movepool. One of the best Stallbreakers/Magic bounce breakers out there.

 

[G-Luke]

Here's an idea. Allow Kangaskhanite to abilities that act similar to Parental Bond. Like Huge/Pure Power, Hustle, etc. Huge Power since it doubles attack, Hustle since it boosts attacks 1.5, abeit at lowered accuracy. I'm sure other abilities exist like it, but I can't remember now. Think about it.

 

[BibarelThump]

There's no reason to allow kangaskhanite, there's no justification. All huge power users get access to boosting moves and flinch moves bar like Diggersby

 

[MK]

Here's an idea. Allow Kangaskhanite to abilities that act similar to Parental Bond. Like Huge/Pure Power, Hustle, etc. Huge Power since it doubles attack, Hustle since it boosts attacks 1.5, abeit at lowered accuracy. I'm sure other abilities exist like it, but I can't remember now. Think about it.

There's aboslutely no need to unban Kangashkanite. Besides, your reasoning is waaaaay to complex. The meta is fine where it is right now.

 

[G-Luke]

Not really. Simple. Kangaskhanite is allowed on Pokemon with Huge Power and Hustle. I'm not saying unban it, I'm saying we should discuss it.

 

[Funbot28]

Not really. Simple. Kangaskhanite is allowed on Pokemon with Huge Power and Hustle. I'm not saying unban it, I'm saying we should discuss it.

I'm not understanding the whole Hustle ordeal? Is it because each Hustle mon has low Atk, cause there is Durant...

 

[sin(pi)]

I'm not understanding the whole Hustle ordeal? Is it because each Hustle mon has low Atk, cause there is Durant...

I think his point was that, since PBond is essentially a Band boost, mons that get that boost through another ability (Hustle, the Powers) should be allowed access to Kangaskhanite.

I don't really agree (between PUP+similar, seismic toss, etc, as well as it being far too complicated), but yeah.

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

Here's an idea. Allow Kangaskhanite to abilities that act similar to Parental Bond. Like Huge/Pure Power, Hustle, etc. Huge Power since it doubles attack, Hustle since it boosts attacks 1.5, abeit at lowered accuracy. I'm sure other abilities exist like it, but I can't remember now. Think about it.

Parental bond is like you have x mon a choice band and specs at the same time, gave it the ability to switch moves, gave it serene grace, and made it so subs can't fully block you, since you break them with the first hit and deal damage w/ the second. Basically, it's hustle (with no accuracy drop and it effects SpA too), serene grace, and infiltrator (weakened tho), all rolled into one. That is ridiculous. If we were to unban it on stuff w/ similar abilities, you'd basically need to give it to all of those, and that is a ridiculous, pretty much arbitrary connection. The meta is already very matchup reliant. Why would you ever want to add ANOTHER offensive threat?

 

[thdhted]

Parental bond is like you have x mon a choice band and specs at the same time, gave it the ability to switch moves, gave it serene grace, and made it so subs can't fully block you, since you break them with the first hit and deal damage w/ the second. Basically, it's hustle (with no accuracy drop and it effects SpA too), serene grace, and infiltrator (weakened tho), all rolled into one. That is ridiculous. If we were to unban it on stuff w/ similar abilities, you'd basically need to give it to all of those, and that is a ridiculous, pretty much arbitrary connection. The meta is already very matchup reliant. Why would you ever want to add ANOTHER offensive threat?

Agreeing with Maestro here. Kangaskhanite adds nothing new to the meta that makes it more interesting. Tagging Ghoul King for the final decision though, so we can stop talking about this and discuss more interesting things.

Howsabout we discuss hazards in MnM? I've found Webz to be VERY effective against offense, but see neither that nor spikes/toxic spikes.

 

[Ghoul King]

Council is discussing it. Final decision later.

Sticky Web is awesome, except for the part where you have to use Galvantula or Shuckle or even less viable things, whom unfortunately get very little out of the meta. Plus Sticky Web leads tend to be obvious, because you basically just plain want to lead with them, or your entire team tends to suffer. I saw a fair few Sticky Web-using teams very early on -Pidgeotite Galvantula for reliable Thunder, for instance- but the Sticky Web users available tended to be dead weight, often being KOed or, in Shuckle's case, Taunted before they got anything done. I stopped seeing them after the early portion of the month.

I actually saw Spikes a fair amount -even ran a hazard stacking Sablenite Skarmory for a bit- but often it ended poorly, between Magic Bounce and the tendency of a lot of teams to have half the team immune to grounded hazards. Toxic Spikes I saw even less, and for much the same reasons, only throwing in that Aggronite Pokemon are immune post Mega Evolution (Plus native Steel types, of course), once Gengar Mega Evolves it clears Toxic Spikes on switch-in, the fact that even fewer Pokemon get Toxic Spikes than get Spikes, etc etc.

 

[thdhted]

Okay, yeah all of those points make sense. I will say that Shuckle worked just fine if you used your Banetite slot. The slight bulk increase, priority encore, and the ability to guarantee both layers of hazards due to Sturdy+Prankster on subsequent turns all made for a good hazard setter and a great set up sweeper baiter. You could run Toxic in the fourth slot, but I chose protect. All in all, I found that while Shuckle was pretty much deadweight versus Stall and some Balance teams, it performed pretty well against HO and Bulky Offense, and often allowed me to get dangerous set-up sweepers down, or lock an opponent's lead into Stealth Rocks for a near-free switch. With MnM's weird speed tiers, I mostly used Webs as a cushion to allow something to mega evolve more safely or allow a hard hitting Cameruptite user to do stuff(Camerputite Victini)
Galvantula is bad either way and is inferior to a lot of things as both a hazard setter and as a Pidgeotenite user. The only use I can see it having is as a decently fast pivot with Volt Switch.
As for Spike stacking I found that Ampharosite skarm worked decently well with it, but you had to use Ampharosite on Skarmory in the first place.

 

[1nvalid]

No hazard setter is good if it doesn't have Mold Breaker in this tier. Magic Bounce can be granted by 3 separate mega stones, and is common. If your opponent leads with a Magic Bouncer, you won't be getting hazards up for the rest of the match.

Question: Can Lopunnite Landorus-T be countered whatsoever? If not, is that a problem? My opinion: it's a problem, but there are bigger fish to fry.

 

[BibarelThump]

Aerilate mons can probably counter it. Zygarde comes to mind.

 

[Ghoul King]

Lopunnite Landorus-Therian dies horribly to random -atespeeders, being vulnerable to all three -ate types, it really struggles against several bulky choices like Sablenite Zapdos (Immune to Earthquake, resistant to Fighting STAB, bulky enough to tank Stone Edges, and the fact that it's slower means you can't Earthquake it on the Roost) if it isn't running Swords Dance, and there's a decent pool of threats that outspeed it if they're already Mega Evolved, like Absolite Manaphy.

No hazard setter is good if it doesn't have Mold Breaker in this tier. Magic Bounce can be granted by 3 separate mega stones, and is common. If your opponent leads with a Magic Bouncer, you won't be getting hazards up for the rest of the match.

I mostly got use out of opportunistic Stealth Rock setters, myself. (Attackers that rounded out their fourth move with Stealth Rock type of thing) Dedicated hazard droppers... yeah, they're basically going to have to be Mold Breaker or else they're risking being worse than useless.

 

[canno]

It's Fighting STABs are also either weak (Brick Break) or cripple Lando-T in some way (Hammer Arm and Superpower). This, along with its -atespeed weakness and its inability to deal with certain bulkmon despite its ridiculous power definitely make it not broken. To top it all off, Lopunnite Lando-T suffers from opportunity cost (there are some arguably better Lopunnite users, and arguably better stones for Lando-T).

 

[1nvalid]

Landorus-T's fighting STAB, Super Power, does cripple it. I think of Loppundus (caling it that now.) as very hard to switch into threat which will be hitting only once, and then switching out when it gets another chance to use a strong move. Atespeed is a weakness, but switching in your atespammer is not safe, can only be done once. Now that I think about it more, Loppundus functions as a powerful stallbreaker and not much else. Against non-stall teams, it should still be able to net either a kill or some big damage by surviving thanks to the single intimidate drop. I've changed my mind about Loppundus, it's not broken, but just really really good, to the point where if you have an extra slot and haven't used Loppunite yet, you might as well use it.

 

[mallpal]

just to clarify, are you talking about the sd/eq/superpower/stone edge set? that's the only one i could see being an effective stallbreaker.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

252 Atk Landorus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 159-187 (47.6 - 55.9%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 344-408 (107.8 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 118-139 (29.2 - 34.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 210-248 (65.8 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Landorus-Therian is a pretty bad user of Lopunnite, there are far better options, notably Staraptor. Being weak to every -ate makes it an awful option versus offence and stall deals with it the same way it deals with any other threat

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

252 Atk Landorus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 159-187 (47.6 - 55.9%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 344-408 (107.8 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 118-139 (29.2 - 34.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 210-248 (65.8 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Landorus-Therian is a pretty bad user of Lopunnite, there are far better options, notably Staraptor. Being weak to every -ate makes it an awful option versus offence and stall deals with it the same way it deals with any other threat

Honestly, it's not BAD, per se, but it's not nearly as good in practice as on paper. It's not that fast, but it's also not slow, it's got a ton of power, good offensive typing, etc., but it just has so much opportunity cost between huge atespeed weakness, the mega stone clause, etc., that it just isn't worth it. And, along with that, it's not as powerful as you'd expect, as you demonstrated.

 

[FOZ369]

I use Salamencite Landorus-T with EQ, frustration, and smack down for perfect coverage. I'm pretty sure Lopunnite Landorus-T has perfect coverage with smack down also. The only reason I can think of why people don't use smack down is that it just doesn't come to mind.

 

[thdhted]

I use Salamencite Landorus-T with EQ, frustration, and smack down for perfect coverage. I'm pretty sure Lopunnite Landorus-T has perfect coverage with smack down also. The only reason I can think of why people don't use smack down is that it just doesn't come to mind.

because Smack Down is garbage. It has low BP, a useless effect that's easy to work around, and is in general inferior to Stone Edge or Rock Slide. The perfect accuracy seems nice, until you consider that even if a move like Stone Edge misses 2 out of 4 times, it will still have equal power to 4 Smack Downs. If Levitators are such a big problem, use Mold Breaker.
Also, if you REALLY want power out of Lando, use Altarianite Explosion. It sacks Lando in exchange for an instant KO on anything with Suicune(sablenite)level bulk or less.252+ Atk Pixilate Landorus-T Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 382-450 (94.5 - 111.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Also Pixi Return hits VERY hard.

 

[FOZ369]

because Smack Down is garbage. It has low BP, a useless effect that's easy to work around, and is in general inferior to Stone Edge or Rock Slide. The perfect accuracy seems nice, until you consider that even if a move like Stone Edge misses 2 out of 4 times, it will still have equal power to 4 Smack Downs. If Levitators are such a big problem, use Mold Breaker.
Also, if you REALLY want power out of Lando, use Altarianite Explosion. It sacks Lando in exchange for an instant KO on anything with Suicune(sablenite)level bulk or less. Also Pixi Return hits VERY hard.

What poke would you switch into a Lopunnite Landorus-T? Skarmory? Obvious switch right? Smack down predicting the switch. Then Skarm only has two options. Switch or take the EQ. Landorus-T can now SD or EQ Skarmory or any incoming switch.

I dont run smack down for power.