Is it intended that Azumarill can't have Thick Fat before mega evolving if it's holding one of the restricted stones?
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Ladder Mix and Mega
- Thread starter Imperator Romanum
- Start date
Even if it doesn't really matter that much whether or not NFEs are able to mega evolve in M&M, it does kinda seem like a pointless restriction.
Also, instead of being unranked, I think that Ditto should be ranked C or higher. It's been very useful on my team. Just having it on a team forces opponents to be wary of setting up. Ditto is also pretty good in M&M based on the fact that almost nothing runs scarf, so Ditto will always be the fastest and won't ever have to risk a speedtie. You can use Ditto not only against setup sweepers but also against stall pokes. You can predict a toxic from a Magic Bounce Poke then switch in, you can heal yourself or your teammates with a stall Poke's recovery move, or you can PP stall the stall Pokes. Ditto is a really versatile Poke.
Also, instead of being unranked, I think that Ditto should be ranked C or higher. It's been very useful on my team. Just having it on a team forces opponents to be wary of setting up. Ditto is also pretty good in M&M based on the fact that almost nothing runs scarf, so Ditto will always be the fastest and won't ever have to risk a speedtie. You can use Ditto not only against setup sweepers but also against stall pokes. You can predict a toxic from a Magic Bounce Poke then switch in, you can heal yourself or your teammates with a stall Poke's recovery move, or you can PP stall the stall Pokes. Ditto is a really versatile Poke.
For the stones that are restricted by ability, you need the ability on your moveset in order to use it. I question the legitimacy of that rule, because you can mega evolve Medicham with Telepathy or Blaziken with Blaze, but that's how the code works.
Completely unrelated, but can someone explain to me why Meganium is ranked at all? Because it's really bad. Even in PU, it's E-rank bad. I have to imagine whoever made the viability rankings has a childhood fondess of it, but if you're going to put Shaymin in D rank, who literally has all-around better stats and nearly the same movepool, then Meganium's got to go.
Any reason why it wouldn't be Pidgeotite? It's just as fast, stronger, and a little bit bulkier too.
Correct behavior.
Wait, it's not ranked already? Huh. I could've sworn it was added back the first time we won OMotM.
Adding it.
At a guess, Dragon Tail. Possibly Counter and Refresh, too, though Dragon Tail seems the most likely reason. Serperior is the only other Grass type to get Dragon Tail, and indeed Shaymin has no force-switch move at all. If you want a bulky contributor to a hazard stacking switch-spam defensive team, Shaymin isn't it.
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
You also forgot Klinklang :(
Not sure what team specifically calls for a pure-Grass phazer, but let's assume you need one. Why not Gogoat? It gets Roar, non-weather dependent Recovery in Milk Drink, active recovery in Horn leech and has better all-around stats for the job. Stats adjusted for Cameruptite and Sablenite:
252 SpA Sheer Force Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Meganium: 254-300 (69.7 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Sheer Force Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gogoat: 278-330 (61.7 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And if it doesn't have to be pure Grass, there are a ton of other better Pokemon that learn phazing moves, like Venusaur and Chesnaught. You can say "ah, but only Dragon Tail deals damage, making it ideal for spike stacking teams" but I don't think that one "niche" is enough to be ranked at all, especially since Dragon Tail has its own setbacks (like there being a Fairy type on every team). If that was a useful niche, Meganium would have actual usage in at least a single standard tier, but it doesn't, not even in PU. Because it doesn't gain anything unique or serve a specialized role in the transition from standard to M&M, I still can't find any justification to use it.
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
I'm surprised this set hasn't been used more:
Kyurem @ Aggronite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Iron Head
- Dragon Claw
- Toxic / Filler
This unfairly bulky abomination has been almost comically overlooked so far this month. Aggronite Kyurem has reliable recovery alongside base 125/140/110 defenses, 160 attack, and a great dragon/steel post-mega typing. Filter further protects it from super-effective moves being used against it. This set beats almost every ate abuser bar Entei, which will often burn you, because of its massive bulk. It can easily check Altarianite or Pinsirite Zygarde at +1 and hits both for super effective damage. And for a general tank, well...252 Atk Refrigerate Weavile Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Kyurem: 144-171 (31.7 - 37.7%) -- 91.9% chance to 3HKO...yeah.
Kyurem @ Aggronite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Iron Head
- Dragon Claw
- Toxic / Filler
This unfairly bulky abomination has been almost comically overlooked so far this month. Aggronite Kyurem has reliable recovery alongside base 125/140/110 defenses, 160 attack, and a great dragon/steel post-mega typing. Filter further protects it from super-effective moves being used against it. This set beats almost every ate abuser bar Entei, which will often burn you, because of its massive bulk. It can easily check Altarianite or Pinsirite Zygarde at +1 and hits both for super effective damage. And for a general tank, well...252 Atk Refrigerate Weavile Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Kyurem: 144-171 (31.7 - 37.7%) -- 91.9% chance to 3HKO...yeah.
sin(pi)
lucky n bad
Seems like running special attacks (flash cannon, dragon pulse/draco) would be better - not only is pulse a slight power upgrade (/draco is a nuke), you can also run Earth Power in the 4th slot for the steels that otherwise wall you (granted, a significant number are Steel/Flying or Levitran). It also has the benefits of hitting atespeeders on their weaker side
On the topic of Kyurem, Glalitite is an absolute menace to switch into. Having an Ice STAB means it can just about run physical, special OR mixed sets, and even Hone Claws if you're feeling lucky (this is probably just worse than DDance Zygarde though). I think its position on the VR is pretty accurate, but people don't seem to be using it much - give it a go!
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
I was originally going to go special, but 160 attack is hard to pass up. Draco is kind of counter-intuitive, considering you want to wall things, but can't kill them if you get spA drops, becoming setup bait to many common mons such as zygarde. Earth power wasn't run for exactly what you laid out - it doesn't hit very much. It's certainly viable, however, because the 4th slot is unused.
An idea I was thinking of is Dragon tail for the filler. It gives a similar set to helmet chomp, and u can shuffle out stuff like manaphy and suicune. Just an idea.
Haven't tested out this particular set yet, but I have used a similar set with Aggronite Salamence (for the utility of Intimidate pre-Mega Evo in addition to Defog), and I can agree that the basic concept works fantastically. Just a note, it might be better to run Dragon Tail over Dragon Claw, as it's served my Salamence set well; depends if you want higher damage and accuracy or the ability to potentially force an unwanted switch.
How about this set? I thought it was pretty creative set on celebi so I tried it. Hope I didn't miss anything!
Celebi @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Solar Beam
- Dazzling Gleam
- Shadow Ball
- Ancient Power
Solar beam on a sunny day. Pretty much it XD
Celebi @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Solar Beam
- Dazzling Gleam
- Shadow Ball
- Ancient Power
Solar beam on a sunny day. Pretty much it XD
The issue is, its steel STAB to use is iron tail, not iron head. Your putting the faith of one of it stabs in RNG which is eh. Though there are the benefits such as no spikes damage pre mega, intimidate, Defog, and arguably stat distributing.
I'm surprised celebi didn't make the rankings, I've found that using it as a passer with swords dance or nasty plot can be quite effective. It's a great way to gain momentum and the receiving pokemon can often rip holes the opposing team. Here's the set I'm currently running but I'm sure there are plenty of other mega stones that could work.
Celebi @ Manectite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Baton Pass
- Recover
- Giga Drain
Celebi @ Manectite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Baton Pass
- Recover
- Giga Drain
I've had some success with an Altarinite Snorlax.
Snorlax @ Altarianite
Ability: Thick Fat --> Pixiliate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Return
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
That's right, Curselax is back! The major downfalls of the original was that Normal was walled by a lot of Pokemon and Ghosts were immune. However, because the metagame has a lot of Pokemon opting for Mega Boosts instead of Life Orb, Snorlax's huge special durability comes into play. Pixilate Returns hit very hard even before a Curse, but afterward Snorlax becomes a huge threat. One of the best benefits of this is choosing to Mega-Evolve on a predicted Fighting attack and Resting off the damage or KO'ing with Return. Thick Fat also lets you get Snorlax in and threaten foes.
Pinsirite can also be used and buffs SpD at the cost of Attack, but adding the Flying type makes Snorlax more susceptible to Stealth Rock as well as giving it more common Electric and Ice weaknesses instead of the relatively niche Poison and Steel (Lax doesn't care about Gyro Ball and few major threats run a strong enough Flash Cannon). I also think the resistances of Fairy are generally superior than those of Flying.
EDIT: So Altarinite Snorlax is listed. There's one Pokemon that isnt though:
Shaymin @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Grass Whistle
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power
- Synthesis
Pidgeotite grants Shaymin a much appreciated +20 Speed, turns Grass Whistle into a 100% Sleep move, and also makes Shaymin's Seed Flare's do massive damage (+65 SpA) and never miss. Round out with Earth Power for coverage and Synthesis to regain HP on a disabled opponent, and Shaymin can be a real pain to deal with.
Snorlax @ Altarianite
Ability: Thick Fat --> Pixiliate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Return
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
That's right, Curselax is back! The major downfalls of the original was that Normal was walled by a lot of Pokemon and Ghosts were immune. However, because the metagame has a lot of Pokemon opting for Mega Boosts instead of Life Orb, Snorlax's huge special durability comes into play. Pixilate Returns hit very hard even before a Curse, but afterward Snorlax becomes a huge threat. One of the best benefits of this is choosing to Mega-Evolve on a predicted Fighting attack and Resting off the damage or KO'ing with Return. Thick Fat also lets you get Snorlax in and threaten foes.
Pinsirite can also be used and buffs SpD at the cost of Attack, but adding the Flying type makes Snorlax more susceptible to Stealth Rock as well as giving it more common Electric and Ice weaknesses instead of the relatively niche Poison and Steel (Lax doesn't care about Gyro Ball and few major threats run a strong enough Flash Cannon). I also think the resistances of Fairy are generally superior than those of Flying.
EDIT: So Altarinite Snorlax is listed. There's one Pokemon that isnt though:
Shaymin @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Grass Whistle
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power
- Synthesis
Pidgeotite grants Shaymin a much appreciated +20 Speed, turns Grass Whistle into a 100% Sleep move, and also makes Shaymin's Seed Flare's do massive damage (+65 SpA) and never miss. Round out with Earth Power for coverage and Synthesis to regain HP on a disabled opponent, and Shaymin can be a real pain to deal with.
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I've been using Steel Wing over Iron Tail, actually. It's still a bit inaccurate and it's considerably weaker than both Iron Head and Iron Tail, but the potential to raise Defense has saved me on at least one occasion.
but yeah, no Iron Head access sucks
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
Viability rankings were FINALLY fixed yesterday to reflect a more updated state from last omotm (Ghoul King had started editing outdated rankings). Everything should be up to date now. With that being said:
Changes
Zygarde A+ --> S
Mew S --> A+
Nominations
Mew A+ --> A
Weavile A --> A+
Entei A --> A+
Keldeo A- --> A
Skarmory A- --> A
Latios A- --> B+
Metagross A --> A-
Diggersby A- --> B+
Excadrill A- --> B+
Blaziken B+ --> B
Snorlax B+ --> B
Slowking B+ --> B
Jirachi B+ --> A-
Note that all of these are nominations and up for discussion!
If you want to make other noms, please do, because these rankings need to be a reflection of the community's opinion, not mine or anybody else's.
Changes
Nominations
Note that all of these are nominations and up for discussion!
If you want to make other noms, please do, because these rankings need to be a reflection of the community's opinion, not mine or anybody else's.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
if zygarde is S, im going to argue entei should be S too, its actually the more threatening one out of the two. entei gets dual stab with perfect coverage, sacred fire's burn chance, and it actually gains a boosting move in howl...sure howl sucks, but howl STILL makes entei one of the scariest pokemon in this meta. when i see a zygarde..i actually dont really care much about it... and when i use it, its good, but so many people prepare for ates, and unstabbed EQ is pretty lackluster. entei can leave a hefty burden on ANY pokemon with sacred fire which means even counters have problems with it. am i the only one who is more scared of entei then zygarde? i mean, i never see zygarde used. and when i do...it doesnt do much. entei however, is like, on every other team, and even when its not meant to put in work it nags a sacred fire burn or two. its typing also gives it a resistance to pixilate. which means it gets to stay in longer unlike zyggy. which even at +1 gets 2hkoed since its weak to pixie, the more common ate(for some reason). entei suffers from a SR weakness...but that doesnt really hold it back tbh. its still like...the face of mix and mega, and id even go as far as saying its the second most common pokemon in the tier outside of blissey.
im just saying, if something is arguably better then zygarde, and the community seems to agree (due to how much its used compared to zyggy)...then it should be S ranked too, or at least have a discussion on such a potential change.
and just so you know, i agree zyggy should be S, don't think i'm suggesting it to drop. im just saying, entei is just as good, even without boosting/suckish boosting in howl.
im just saying, if something is arguably better then zygarde, and the community seems to agree (due to how much its used compared to zyggy)...then it should be S ranked too, or at least have a discussion on such a potential change.
and just so you know, i agree zyggy should be S, don't think i'm suggesting it to drop. im just saying, entei is just as good, even without boosting/suckish boosting in howl.
Full agreement here. I have always struggled more against Entei than Zygarde. Sacred fire ruins many defensive switchins and it hits much harder with its -Ate moves. Zygarde can setup, but is easily dispatched by anything with Aggronite/Slowbronite. Entei hits Aggronite users SE or neutrally, and will burn them so they have to special attackers to try and KO. I finally found a good switchin to Entei after a long process of searching, that being Blue Orb Empoleon. Takes fairy hits well and is immune to fire STAB, while always being able to OHKO.
Coil and Dragon Dance blow Howl out of the water. Zygarde isn't terrified of Stealth Rock. Zygarde's movepool, though lackluster, is less lackluster than Entei's -I personally run Dragon Tail (to screw with expected switches) and Superpower. (Primarily to beat weakened Blissey that think they can switch in safely, but I also use it to beat myriad Blue Orbs Steel types and the like)
Entei's access to Sacred Fire is nice, but it's hardwalled by
-Blue Orb Ferrothorn
-Red Orb Hippowdon
-Indeed, pretty much any vaguely bulky Red Orber ignores it
-Blue Orb Skarmory (Really, Blue Orb Steel types in general)
etc. Altarianite Entei particularly struggles against literally every Fire type ever, especially Heatran, which is neutral to Stone Edge. Pinsirite Entei doesn't have that problem so much (Still struggles against Heatran, though), but the vulnerability to Stealth Rock is heinous, making it difficult to actually switch Entei in to deal with threats and demanding you provide it a lot of support to keep it relevant.
Zygarde cannot be hardwalled by anything -Latiosite Heatran? Superpower-ed. Blue Orb Ferrothorn? Superpower-ed. Red Orb Hippowdon? Earthquake-ed. Steel/Flying is the only type that really gives Zygarde consistent trouble, and Blue Orb Skarmory is way more of a problem for Entei than Zygarde.
The primary advantages Entei has are both basically anti-meta -that it's not nearly as scared of Glalitite as Zygarde is (Glalitite is run primary to beat Zygarde, in my experience) and it can outright beat enemy Altarianite Pokemon when carrying Altarianite because it resists Fairy and they don't/are vulnerable outright. Sacred Fire is useful, but teams can completely neuter its utility, and Entei's painfully shallow movepool gives it trouble.
Er, what? Gogoat doesn't provide cleric support. (Meganium has Aromatherapy) Its Physical bulk is also noticeably worse (I calced it and everything, both invested and uninvested, and it loses), and MnM is slanted toward Physical threats overall for myriad reasons. Dragon Tail is also useful for forcing out the myriad Magic Bouncers, which are more consistently found than Fairies on teams -stall teams are essentially guaranteed to have a Sablenite abuser, while offensive teams frequently run Diancite or Absolite (Or both), whereas the defensive Fairy Mega Stone (Audinite) has a useless Ability and the offensive one (Altarianite) is in close competition with Pinsirite -and Fairy as a base typing is actually somewhat uncommon, as a lot of Fairies are leaning heavily on their Abilities to be so relevant in Standard and lose out in Mnm as a result. (eg Clefable's access to Magic Guard and Unaware is irrelevant, Azumarill is basically only good with Huge/Pure Power Mega Stones, Gardevoir classically leans on its Mega's access to Pixilate which is now available to fast Boombursters...) Roar as a phazing effect is much less reliable than Dragon Tail in MnM, Accuracy aside.
If you check the calculator, Meganium has an NU set, just like Gogoat.
Meganium fills a unique niche. Whether that unique niche is a relevant and worthwhile one is the question, not whether Meganium has a unique niche or not.
My only personal commentary is that I'm not sure why Keldeo is so high. Red Orb's presence hurts it a lot, and no Mega Stone particularly helps it escape this problem or provides it some other niche. I guess Absolite makes the Substitute/Calm Mind builds better, but it's also vulnerable to 2 out of 3 -atespeeds -the more common two, in fact- and its limited coverage makes it predictable, especially since it can't use a Mega Stone to meaningfully resolve this issue. (It lacks Hyper Voice/a similar -ateable move, among other points)Viability rankings were FINALLY fixed yesterday to reflect a more updated state from last omotm (Ghoul King had started editing outdated rankings). Everything should be up to date now. With that being said:
Changes
Zygarde A+ --> S
Mew S --> A+
Nominations
Mew A+ --> A
Weavile A --> A+
Entei A --> A+
Keldeo A- --> A
Skarmory A- --> A
Latios A- --> B+
Metagross A --> A-
Diggersby A- --> B+
Excadrill A- --> B+
Blaziken B+ --> B
Snorlax B+ --> B
Slowking B+ --> B
Jirachi B+ --> A-
Note that all of these are nominations and up for discussion!
If you want to make other noms, please do, because these rankings need to be a reflection of the community's opinion, not mine or anybody else's.
The issue is that pixie entei can't hit fire types as hard as it would want 2, relying on edge and bulldoze, and pinsirite makes it super weak to SR limiting its ability to wreck havoc on teams. Lots of blue orb users wall both, but zygarde can set up, better typing imo, having multiple sets, such as sub coil which can potentially beat smart if played right, and DD 3 attacks makes it harder to predict. It also isn't hard walled by suicune, which entei is. I agree with it being A+, maybe even make an S- rank for it, but S is out of reach if I'm honest.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
i can respect this argument. and i agree after realizing zygarde gets superpower that its def S ranked. i still feel that people fail to realize hazards are pretty easy to avoid in mix and mega as defoggers and bouncers are manditory and subconsiously put in respectively. so yeah, i can respect entei going into A+ so pinsirite entei isnt as nearly bad as it seems. especially when its only 2x weak on switchin. but yeah, i agree, S rank is a bit too much for entei, and im fine with A or A+ for it really.