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OU Moltres

Discussion in 'Preliminary Pokedex' started by Sturdynips, Jan 16, 2014.

  1. Sturdynips

    Sturdynips
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    is bird
    Shroomisaur's original skeleton

    QC: alexwolf, Jukain, Labyrinthine
    GP: GatoDelFuego, Electrolyte


    Overview
    ########
    While Moltres's Fire / Flying typing offers an unattractive 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, it also provides an array of resistances that allows it to fulfill an interesting defensive niche in the OU metagame. Its ability, Pressure, and its access to reliable recovery in the form of Roost are handy for a defensive Pokemon, allowing Moltres to stall out Pokemon that it checks by virtue of its typing, such as Lucario, Scizor, Mega Mawile, and Conkeldurr. Unfortunately, the Flame Pokemon is weak to common Water-, Electric-, and Rock-type attacks, which, in addition to the above-mentioned Stealth Rock weakness, means that Moltres faces significant competition for a position on a team. However, when used correctly, Moltres can be very difficult to take down.

    SubToxic
    ########
    name: SubToxic
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Toxic
    move 3: Roost
    move 4: Flamethrower
    ability: Pressure
    item: Leftovers
    evs: 248 HP / 160 SpD / 100 Spe
    nature: Calm

    Moves
    ========
    The combination of Substitute, Roost, and Toxic works excellently with Pressure to stall out slower opponents. Substitute provides protection from status, which otherwise cripples Moltres, and is easy to set up thanks to Moltres's handy resistances. Any defensive Pokemon worth its salt loves a form of recovery; Roost provides this longevity for Moltres. Toxic is a great way to cripple common switch-ins, especially bulky Water-types such as Rotom-W and Azumarill. Finally, Flamethrower is a decently strong STAB attack that has the added advantage of denting many Pokemon that don't mind Toxic, such as Steel-types, Mega Venusaur, Poison Heal Gliscor, and Celebi.

    Set Details
    ========
    The given EVs and Calm nature emphasize special bulk, allowing Moltres to check the likes of Aegislash, Alakazam, Landorus, and, importantly, Mega Charizard Y, while also minimizing Stealth Rock damage and allowing Moltres to outspeed Adamant variants of Bisharp and Breloom. Leftovers is the item of choice for its useful HP restoration.

    Usage Tips
    ========
    This set is designed to stall out opposing Pokemon with passive damage from Toxic while keeping healthy with Roost. Moltres should try to set up a Substitute on Pokemon that cannot break it, such as Gliscor, or when it is expected that the opponent will switch out. A good example of when to use Substitute is if Moltres is on the field against a Ferrothorn. Keep in mind that if Moltres is not safely behind a Substitute, Toxic should nearly always be used to hit Water-types as they switch in, which will force Moltres out otherwise. It is also important to remember that Pressure will double the PP cost of moves used against Moltres, so it is feasible to stall out the PP of moves such as Stone Edge or Hydro Pump through the use of Substitute and Roost. Because Stealth Rock takes a huge 50% of Moltres's HP upon switching in, you should play cautiously when it is on the field, as using Substitute once before switching out will make Moltres only useful as death fodder unless you've previously removed Stealth Rock. Although this set invests in Special Defense, Moltres's typing allows it to check physical attackers, too. Scizor and Conkeldurr can do very little outside of Knock Off, and Ground-types such as Excadrill that lack a Rock-type coverage move will be completely shut down.

    Team Options
    ========
    This Moltres set is best suited for defensively inclined or balanced teams. In order for it to be effective, Defog or Rapid Spin support is a necessity; Excadrill has nice defensive synergy with Moltres and can demolish Tyranitar and Heatran with its STAB Earthquake. Mega Blastoise coves Moltres's Water-type vulnerability and Moltres can comfortably switch into Grass-type attacks aimed at Mega Blastoise. As far as Defog users go, Latios is an excellent choice, particularly variants carrying Earthquake, as they effectively lure and remove Heatran and deal nice damage to Tyranitar. Defensive, bulky Grass-types such as Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn, and Gourgeist-XL are great partners as they can switch into Electric- and Water-type moves. In return, Moltres can check Fire-type threats such as Mega Charizard Y and Volcarona. Teammates that can handle fast physical attackers such as Terrakion, Garchomp, and Talonflame are wise choices; Landorus-T and Rotom-W are effective in this pivot role and can often bring Moltres in safely with U-turn and Volt Switch, respectively. Landorus-T can also set up Stealth Rock to wear down opposing Pokemon.

    Other Options
    ########
    Moltres has several other useful options at its disposal. Will-O-Wisp and Roar could potentially be used over Substitute and Toxic on the defensive set, allowing Moltres to counter Mega Mawile and prevent dangerous opponents, such as Belly Drum Azumarill and Mega Gyarados, from setting up. An offensive set with Choice Specs and Hurricane is an option as it hits extremely hard, but this set is held back by strong competition from other rain abusers such as Tornadus-T, as well as Moltres's low Speed. Defog is possibly viable, though Moltres struggles to find space for it in its moveset. In addition, Moltres will often have to switch into Stealth Rock in order to use Defog, so entry hazard removal is best left to teammates.

    Checks & Counters
    ########
    **Stealth Rock**: As Stealth Rock removes 50% of Moltres's health upon switching in, it prevents Moltres from countering many of the threats it otherwise could and leaves it far more prone to being revenge killed.

    **Special Walls**: Tyranitar, Heatran, and Chansey easily take Moltres's STAB moves. Tyranitar can retaliate with Stone Edge or Pursuit, though it doesn't like Toxic or Will-O-Wisp. Specially defensive Heatran is immune to Flamethrower and Toxic, and can lay down Stealth Rock or cripple Moltres with Toxic. Chansey can take any hit comfortably, heal potential poison with Natural Cure, and ruin Moltres with status. Rotom-W resists Moltres's STAB moves and can hit back with Hydro Pump or Volt Switch, and Rest variants are unworried by Toxic.

    **Status Damage Immunity**: Magic Guard Clefable can't be worn down with Toxic and takes little damage from Flamethrower. Substitute users that resist Flamethrower such as Garchomp and Gyarados can set up a Substitute that defensive Moltres cannot immediately break. Similarly, setup sweepers carrying a Lum Berry can boost without fear against Moltres. Dragonite is a good example.

    **Faster Pokemon**: Naturally faster Pokemon with super effective moves such as Keldeo, Terrakion, Starmie, and Thundurus make for good checks, especially if Moltres is not behind a Substitute.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 24, 2014
    TheManlyLadybug likes this.
  2. Sturdynips

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    I'm still not certain on whether Sharp Beak is better than LO, but in any case i'll keep it how it is and open this up for QC
  3. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Why do we have two Moltres analyses?
  4. Tainic

    Tainic

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    We need a third one.

    You know.

    MolTRES.

    (It's funny.)
    Comorant, dr00 and Nobody Drex like this.
  5. Sturdynips

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    Shroomisaur dropped Moltres as per the post in the index thread. I picked it up
  6. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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  7. Sturdynips

    Sturdynips
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    I'm not convinced about SubToxic. Toxic just doesn't seem useful enough; Heatran doesn't care, Ttar is hurt more by burn, the Blobs have Natural Cure, Sylveon has Heal Bell, and Rotom-W occasionally has Rest. It certainly has merit against a couple of other common checks such as Goodra, but I'll need to do some testing and at the moment I'm not convinced it's worth a main set.
  8. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Yes there are a few Pokemon that don't mind the Lava Plume + Toxic combo, but those are not a lot. There is Heatran, Chansey, Blissey, and Chesto Berry Rotom-W, but not much else. Neither Tyranitar nor Lefties Rotom-w like getting burned or Toxic'ed, and with SubRoost you can stall out their only attacks that co significant damage to you (Stone Edge and Hydro Pump). Sylveon can't do anything back to Moltres and Heal Bell will eventually run out of PPs as Toxic has more. Most Pokemon have counters, and SubToxic Moltres is the same. SubToxic is a wonderful combo on a Pokemon with Pressure, Roost, and STAB Fire moves for Steel-types. You can test it out to see for yourself if you want, but the addition of the SubToxic set is not up for debate.
  9. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
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    This can be applied to Will-O-Wisp as well. Tyranitar may not be weakened by burn, but Toxic still puts it on a timer, especially when you consider Moltres can discourage Stone Edge spam with Pressure + SubRoost, or the fact that a burned Tyranitar can still force Will-O-Wisp Moltres out. Will-O-Wisp may allow Moltres to weaken physical Pokemon, but Toxic lets Moltres manhandle defensive Pokemon like Mandibuzz and annoys its sturdier checks in Tyranitar, Rotom-W, Lati@s and Goodra, and it's not like Heal Bell Sylveon can do much to stop Moltres from Toxicing again. SubToxic Moltres, as you may guess, works similiarly to SubToxic Gliscor, except it has Pressure over Poison Heal and Fire STAB over Ground STAB, in addition to checking different stuff.

    alexwolf, Moltres doesn't know Lava Plume.
  10. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Oh it doesn't? Lol nvm, Flamethrower then. Still, stupid that it doesn't. Anyway, use the same EV spread that you used for the specially defensive for the SubRoost set.
  11. Sturdynips

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    Fair enough, thanks for the input alexwolf and Punchshroom
    I'll add that set soon when I have a bit more time
  12. Sturdynips

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    added SubToxic
  13. Jaroda

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    I only say mention Sky Drop and Fire Spin as OO for the SubToxic set, as anything with good SpD takes little from Flamethrower and instead Sky Drop acts as pseudo protect, taking a turn to do additional Toxic damage and Lefties recovery, as well as prevent the opponent from, say, using Softboiled/Wish, and still do some physical damage on top. Fire Spin can also be an option over Flamethrower trapping the opponent letting Toxic do its dirty work.
  14. Jukain

    Jukain fuck macle
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    I gave Moltres a test run, and it was pretty bad.

    Any way I shook up the defensive set, it just could not work reliably at all -- Stealth Rock is the biggest reason for this. You can say just Defog or spin it away all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that Moltres can't do shit if SR is ever on the field. Since you can't always have SR away, and Moltres is so hurt by it, I can't even call it a reliable way to handle almost every single threat it's supposed to. Unlike something like Mandibuzz, you can't even handle the SR; it's so insanely crippling. Talonflame and Megazard Y are top-tier OU Pokemon with SR weaknesses, but they're offensive, and don't have to rely on handling so many things, so they can always wait until SR is off the field. Why would I use Moltres to handle Mega Lucario when I could use a more consistent performer like Zapdos? Will-O-Wisp is fine and dandy...but I don't think that's enough. Megazard Y destroys it with SR in play. Everything destroys it with SR in play. Maybe offensive Moltres is okay, but I don't think defensive is good at all. I'd love to see some replays proving I'm just shitty at using it or something!
  15. Sturdynips

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    Jukain I have found defensive Moltres to be similarly underwhelming. To be fair, I haven't used it a great deal, I have mostly been using a Specs set with rain support which has been a pretty good wallbreaker that clears the way for something like NP Thundurus or Mega Lucario to sweep late-game. Perhaps I should change the order of the sets?
  16. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    There should be only one defensive set, SubToxic, as it's the most threatening and overall useful. I agree that the SR weakness is a massive disadvantage and if other QC members don't find worth of a main set i don't have a problem, however i think it deserves a set for teams that are really committed in keeping SR off the field, where it becomes very effective.

    And yeah, the offensive set should be the first one.
  17. Sturdynips

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    I've removed the first set (kept in hide tags just for safekeeping in case it's needed)
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Offensive

    Explain that one of the main reasons to go with Timid it to outspeed Rash / Mild Kyu-B, Jolly Mamoswine, and Timid Rotom-W.

    Also, without Choice Specs, Moltres misses out on some OHKO/2HKOes against important Pokemon, so take a look at the Pokemon in S and A rank in the viability thread, and mention missed KOes on some of those Pokemon.

    Stress that U-turn should be used only if the opponent has a counter to Moltres, as otherwise you are better of predicting the switch and OHKO/2HKOing it. The tip about U-tuning vs Tyranitar early-game is good though.

    Mention Bisharp as a teammate, which can come in with U-turn vs the blobs, Tyranitar, and Aegislash and either Pursuit trap them or set up with Swords Dance as they switch out, or hit them with Iron Head in Tyranitar's case.

    I would remove Breloom as a teammate, as it's not that good in this metagame and very easy to shut down.

    Defensive

    I would remove Latias as a teammate and instead mention EQ Defog Latios, which can lure and eliminate Heatran and weaken Tyranitar, making life much easier for Moltres. Actually, add EQ Defog Latios as a teammate for the first set too, which lures not only those two, but Aegislash too, putting it to 2HKO range of Hurricane so you don't need to predict and hit it with Fire Blast.

    Add some teammates to deal with faster physical threats on the second set, such as Terrakion, Garchomp, and Talonflame. Lando-T is great at this, and also has U-turn and SR.

    Other Options

    Remove Heat Wave and add Roar + WoW for the defensive set instead of Sub + Toxic, which allows Moltres to counter Mega Mawile and prevent dangerous Pokemon from setting up, such as Mega Char X, BD Azumarill, DD Gyarados, etc.

    Checks and Counters

    Add Aegislash, which can easily tank Hurricane and is only 2HKOed by Fire Blast in rain, so you need some prediction to get around it, and obviously getting locked to Fire Blast in rain sucks.

    Also, add Pokemon that don't mind the Toxic + Flamethrower combo of the defensive set, such as Tentacruel and Magic Guard Clefable.

    Do those and consider it


    [​IMG]

    QC APPROVED 1/3
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2014
  19. Sturdynips

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    Implemented, thanks very much alexwolf!
  20. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Bisharp with Pursuit can't trap and weaken only Aegislash, but the blobs too, which after a Pursuit might get into 2HKO range of Hurricane.
  21. Sturdynips

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    Added that in
  22. DarkPhoton

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    Don't know if it's just me, but I don't know if this should even be mentioned because this sort of suggests it's good to set up rain for perfect accuracy hurricane when in fact it halves the damage of his other strong STAB in fire blast.. I think its worth mentioning that hurricane is powerful and maybe the perfect accuracy rain thing but add a note saying that affects his other STAB?
  23. Sturdynips

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    It is definitely a good idea to use offensive Moltres under rain. Hurricane is a much better attack to be spamming than Fire Blast; most Pokemon that are hit harder by Fire Blast don't immediately threaten Moltres or are 2hkoed by Hurricane anyway, eg Ferrothorn.
    It is probably worth adding that fire blast is weakened, though
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  24. DarkPhoton

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    Yeah well put, that is wanted to say essentially. Steel types (skarmory, aegislash) and the loads of good bug / steel types that would otherwise be obliterated will enjoy your rain weakened fire blast more, so it's definitely still worth mentioning a short note about rain weakening it.
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2014
  25. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    It's not just a good idea to use Hurricane Moltres in rain, it's a must, as 70% accuracy is just too low to spam otherwise. Fire Blast can deal with Steel-types even in rain, so it's not a big deal anyway.

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