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Monmon (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by eric the espeon, Oct 1, 2010.

  1. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    [​IMG]

    Monmen

    this thing is mine. Priority subseedtaunt yes please.

    Type: Grass

    Base Stats:
    HP: 40
    Attack: 27
    Defense: 60
    Special Attack: 37
    Special Defense: 50
    Speed: 66
    Total: 280


    --------------

    [Overview]

    • Mischievous Heart gives all of it's non direct damage attacks +1 priority which makes SubSeeding particularly deadly, and lets it Taunt ahead of anything trying to set up.
    • Very hard to beat once it gets going with priority SubSeeding, but vulnerable to Grass types since it has little which can harm them.
    • Can make an effective anti lead since nothing can set up entry hazards before it taunts them.

    [SET]
    name: The Best SubSeeder
    move 1: Leech Seed
    move 2: Substitute
    move 3: Encore / Taunt
    move 4: Toxic / Hidden Power Fire
    item: Leftovers / Berry Juice
    ability: Mischievous Heart
    nature: Calm
    evs: 196 Def / 196 SpD / 68 Spe
    ivs: 0 HP

    Set Description:

    • Priority Leech Seed+Substitute allows Monmen to set up a SubSeed cycle on almost anything incapable of OHKOing it (not that easy with 19/15/15 defenses).
    • Taunt stops opponents from Taunting/Phazing Monmen or pulling any other annoying tricks or setting up while you sit behind a Sub.
    • Encore lets Monmen switch into any foe using a setup move and force them out for a free start to the SubSeed cycle but leaves you much more vulnerable to being stopped by non-offensive moves.
    • The last moveslot lets Monmen do something to other Grass-types. HP Fire off 10 SpA is not scaring much, but at least it'll keep Snover, Paras, and company away.
    • Priority Toxic makes it harder to deal with most Grass-types but is a fun use of free turns when SubSeeding and prevents opponents with a 50% recovery move from stalling for too long.
    • Encore+Taunt is possible, but then Monmen has nothing which can harm Grass-types.
    Additional Comments:

    • No HP investment and a 0 IV to give 4 HP Substitutes which only use up 21% of it's total HP and make it easier to recover the HP back through Leech Seed.
    • Leftovers is a better item choice if Monmen lasts around 10 or more turns, otherwise the instant full healing from Berry Juice is generally better (if setting up against something which almost OHKOes then Berry Juice can be better up to around 18 turns).
    • Need to add 4 EVs to Speed and Special Attack if using Hidden Power Fire (IVs: 3/30/31/30/31/30), Speed EVs can be moved to Special Attack.


    [SET]
    name: Sunny Lead
    move 1: Sunny Day
    move 2: Encore
    move 3: Taunt
    move 4: Memento
    item: Heat Rock / Focus Sash
    ability: Mischievous Heart
    nature: Bold
    evs: 196 HP / 116 Def / 196 SpD


    Set Description:

    • Effective as a lead since it can use priority Taunt to block setup and support your team with Sunny Day.
    • Can come in on any non offensive move and priority Encore to force the foe out.
    • Memento is turns the foe into simple setup fodder and lets you bring in a sun sweeper quickly.
    • Focus Sash almost guarantees that you will stop the opponent's setup and put Sun up, but Heat Rock gives an extra three turns of sun and not that many leads are able to OHKO Monmen.
    Additional Comments:

    • Has trouble with faster leads with priority.
    • Has to predict correctly against leads which may Taunt or use another non-offensive move and may attack to do more than get sun up.

    [SET]
    name: Annoyer
    move 1: Encore
    move 2: Switcheroo
    move 3: Taunt
    move 4: Stun Spore / Toxic
    item: Choice Band / Choice Specs
    ability: Mischievous Heart
    nature: Bold
    evs: 196 HP / 116 Def / 196 SpD


    Set Description:


    • No SubSeed stall on this set, nor weather support, but this gives Monmen enough moveslots to fit all its other cool tricks onto one set.
    • Priority Switcheroo shuts down stat uppers like Lileep and most walls, like Bronzor.
    • Encore lets it come in against any Pokemon using a non-offensive move and get free turns.
    • Taunt stops entry hazards and the like being set up and stops foes Taunting Monmen.
    • Stun Spore cripples almost any sweeper, giving you a last ditch block against setup sweepers or that one Pokemon your team is weak to. Toxic is more accurate though, and helps with bulky Pokemon.
    Additional Comments:


    • Switcheroo can be dropped for another status move, this lets Monmen freely chose it's attack without having to trick away its item first.
    • If not using a Choice item, Monmen can run Focus Sash and be used as an effective anti-entry hazard lead.

    [Team Options]

    • Pokemon which run Sunny Day or Rain Dance help keep the harmful weather conditions off the field, which aids the Leech Seed set.
    • Monmen is generally fairly independent, but since it forces a lot of switches you can try to set up a few entry hazards to take full advantage of its skills. Toxic Spikes in particular helps Monmen deal with most of the Grass-types which wall the SubSeed set.
    • The normal Sunny Day sweepers like Bellsprout, Tangela, and Exeggcute pair well with the Sunny Day set.
    [Optional Changes]

    • GrassWhistle would be a great option if not for its appalling 55% accuracy, but despite this a priority sleep move is still somewhat appealing.
    • Endevour could be useful on a lead set with Focus Sash, but sadly does not get the Mischievous Heart boost which makes it less effective but it's still an option.

    [Counters]

    • Shellder is one of the few Pokemon able to force the SubSeed set out safely thanks to Skill Link Icicle Spear.
    • Snover is immune to Leech Seed and brings a hailstorm into play, which severely hampers Monmen's Leech Seed stall, but must watch out for Hidden Power Fire.
    • Most Grass-types can switch into the SubSeed set fairly safely and beat it down or force it out, but will not be able to switch into Hidden power Fire or Toxic too many times.
    • The other Hidden Powers which are super effective against Grass are viable, but for the most part less effective against common Grass types.
    [Dream World]

    • Chlorophyll is a very nice ability, but Monmen lacks the offensive stats to pull off a sweeper set and there are far better options. Mischievous Heart is just too good to pass up.
  2. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    Alright, got the basics up. Comments appreciated.
  3. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    I think Encore is too good to pass up for Taunt. In basically all situations, Leech Seeding, Substituting, or Encoring would be far superior to Taunting. Hidden Power Fire and Toxic help a lot more. Encore also allows it to give other Pokemon a chance to set up.
  4. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    Encore is amazing, but without Taunt anything with Taunt, Roar, WW and so on can switch in and entirely shut you down. Which kinda sucks since you've probably lost some HP setting up the cycle and some from subs. Encore makes it much more of a team player, but in order to be the near unstoppable staller that Monmen can be it really needs Taunt.
  5. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    What uses Roar that is immune to Leech Seed?
  6. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    Even if you seed them as they roar you out, you still lost a sub and are probably at low enough HP that it'll be hard to get the subseed cycle going again. Taunt does require better prediction I guess.. but it's still essential if you want to stop yourself getting forced out easily.
  7. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    let me put it this way:

    What uses Roar at all? Does it really outweigh the utility that Encore brings? I still no not see a situation in which Encore isn't ridiculously more useful than Taunt when you consider that nothing really uses Roar.

    I'm not asking what can use Roar, I'm asking what will.
  8. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    Taunt is significantly more common than the Phazing moves, and it's the main thing you're going to get forced out by if you don't run Taunt yourself. Encore makes it a great team player, but Taunt makes it almost unstoppable on it's own once Grass-types are out the way. I'll move Encore to first slash, but I'm sure it should stay as an option.
  9. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Alright, that makes sense.
  10. Kannon

    Kannon

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    Encore is actually significantly more underwhelming this generation due to only lasting three turns. I believe taunt should be main slash for stopping setup against Monmen, as it's generally more reliable now.
  11. Nails

    Nails EAST 2014
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    Subseed set

    It's not at all difficult to force this thing out. Shellder can switch in on a sub/leech seed/other support move and threaten to ohko with icicle spear or set up with shell break (and then icicle shard to absorb encore as you outspeed it). this MUST be added to counters, as it's possibly the biggest threat in new LC with shell break/2 125 base power moves and stab priority, and monmen does nothing back to it as none of the sets run any attacks.

    Sunny Day set

    1 word: Vulpix. It alone greatly reduces this set's use. Admittedly, it's a fantastic setup pokemon... that said, Vulpix outclasses the main purpose of this set. The lack of U-Turn/Baton Pass to get the quick switch out also really hurts the set, as losing a pokemon through memento kind of sucks (and switching out to let your sweeper get hit is even worse). I suppose it might be needed because of Vulpix's stealth rock weakness, but I really do have trouble seeing this thing's viability.

    Annoyer

    Looks Decent, since it doesn't need the seed of a scarf to get off the trick. I agree with band being the primary option over specs, but maybe put iron ball as the main option because it doesn't slow down monmen at all and potentially cripples a pokemon instead of giving it a usable boost (if you trick a band/specs, you have to then be able to absorb the stronger attack that next turn, which isn't usually fun).

    It looks like it could be fairly decent, but I'm not sold on a 100% supporter in lc (look at bronzor, even IT usually runs 3 attacks (unless it has screens...)); the lack of any usable form of offense really really hurts it. The fact that encore got nerfed sucks, and hurts its usability, and multihit attacks getting a huge boost means that having a sub up doesn't stop it from being ohkoed.

    I'm also curious about the lack of mention of endeavor, at least in OO. I don't think it gets the mischevious heart boost, but it does add potential use to a non-sunny day lead (blocks hazards, then possibly gets a kill... self explanatory). I don't think it'd be great, but definately worthy of OO.
  12. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Well first of all, Shellder doesn't get STAB priority. Second, it's nowhere near the "biggest threat" in new LC. However, I do agree that it should be added to counters.
    3 words: Not released yet.

    Dream World abilities will be included in analyses when they are released. We can't use them otherwise.
  13. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    Added Shellder to counters, thanks for that. Keeping the stuff about it being hard to force out other than by Grass types though, only a very few Pokemon can switch in and beat it 1v1. Also put a mention of Endevour in OC, I did consider it while writing but was unsure and decided against it. Not sure about tricking Iron Ball, it's a whole moveslot for just a 25% more accurate Stun Spore.. And fair point about viable pure supporters being rarely effective in LC, but Monmen's ability to shut down deadly setup sweepers with Priority Encore/Stun Spore and block foe's setup is unique and probably enough for it to have some use as an almost universal sweep stopper.
  14. Nails

    Nails EAST 2014
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    Yeah, ok, i forgot shellder isn't ice/water like cloyster. It's still a threat with unstabed SE priority though. Also note I said possibly, but Scyther/the other 4th gen ubers are bigger threats overall, so I was exaggerating/assuming a ban which hasn't been decided yet.

    As far as dream world abilities go, are we going to act as if they don't exist and then react as if a massive change hit the metagame when they are released? I realize they won't be implemented until release, but it doesn't seem like a great system to discuss a metagame and have something change when we know it will change and what those changes will be. Whatever, just my $.02.

    EDIT: Posted before I saw ete's post. Tricking Iron Ball is just to give you something useful to trick that isn't a choice item, and doesn't impact you in any way. I admit it's not the most useful thing in the world to trick, but from my experience supporters hate having to trick straight off when it really wants to encore a sub, and iron ball was the first thing to mind. Flame orb could also be viable, as could any of the other hindering items. A note about a scarf, is that it lets it switch into dratini's dragon dance and encore it before the espeed. You'd better be sure you can ohko it though, because of encore's reduced length, turn 1 is spent encoring, turn 2 is switching, and if you can't ko it on turn 3 the encore is over. Just more stuff to think about.
  15. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    Maybe I should have Switcheroo listed as just a slash, and have Juice or something else as an item option? Tricking Iron Ball seems a bit much effort to go to when you have Stun Spore around, and I take your point about being choice locked is less than ideal.
  16. Alan

    Alan

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    on the first set, if you run Max HP / Max Def @ bold w/ Evo Stone it lives a Scarf Growlithe Flare Blitz after SR.

    log from a battle it occured in with that spread. probably worth noting in AC imo, since that means it wont take shit for damage from other moves.
  17. (makeup)

    (makeup) kevin
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    Berry juice is banned now so shouldn't Oran berry be there instead?
  18. Aerrow

    Aerrow hunter
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    ete has informed me that he is no longer working on this analysis. Moving.

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