Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

[Inwhale]

As a bug type user, i would like to give my slightly biased thoughts on genesect. While I may not be the best bug user in the world, i believe my skill with the type is prominent enough that my thoughts on the poke should not be automatically discarded. With that said, onto the matter at hand.

Genesect
I have a hard time deciding if genesect is broken or not. On one hand it gets extremely good coverage, especially against types that are otherwise problematic to bug, especially flying. While one could make an argument that genesect with douse drive could punch holes into fire teams as well (and it certainly can in the perfect circumstances) with the help of sticky web, in reality the matchup hardly ever goes well enough for this situation to arise, mainly due to the fact that fire always runs charizard, whose both mega forms halve the damge water does to them (and others for chari-y), while also being guaranteed a ohko onto genesect, while being faster than it because it's not running scarf. While charizard (and fire teams as a whole) are weak to stealth rock, setting up multiple hazards against pokemon that are all pretty much guaranteed to 2hko in the best case scenario is an incredibly hard stunt to pull, and if you manage that then you really aren't winning due to genesect, but being able to outplay the opposing player. While douse drive can occasionally win you a game against fire, i believe it is inferior to the other prominent sets it runs, mainly the physical banded/shiftgear and scarfed special variants, due to it's unreliability of doing heavy damage. Regardless, charizard-x for example, has (barring sturdy and sash, but fire uses rocks too) 3 pokemon that don't get OHKO to worry about on a bug team after +1 DDance - a fully defense and hp invested armaldo (who still dies if rocks are up and can't OHKO back regardless), crustle, who has the same issue as armaldo, and shuckle (lol). Everything else is either too frail or simply not viable in the current metagame due to largely inferior stats (such as masquerain). Regardless, fire beating bug is nothing new and should not be the main focus of this post.

I will go into detail on how good genesect is against each other matchup as well, as i have battled each one (except poison, so that will be purely speculation) a couple of times or more.
Normal
Against a normal team, genesect behaves similarly to scizor, in while it can't really sweep without setting up, due to it's typing it's pretty hard to kill, as normal usually doesn't run more than one fire move, if even that. Then again, seeing (as previously mentioned), that all the additions to the monotype roster are weak to fire, i believe smarter players have incremented at least some fire moves onto their team. as for the matchup itself, there are not a lot of pokemon normal has that can stand toe to toe with genesect. Normal's first priority when dealing with genesect would be to figure out it's set, making a guess based on the lineup and then using what walls they have on their team to confirm, or use ditto if genesect carries a fire move and no scarf. It is hard for a normal team to be prepared for all of genesect's sets while still being viable to use against every other type, so with that in mind, normal has a genuine disadvantage against bug with genesect. However, since bug teams have a tendency to run mons with incredibly strong close combats (be it pinsir or heracross, or even superpower scizor), i have so far been under the impression that bug has an advantage regardless, genesect just makes the fight even harder.
Water
Since there are a few different water team types, I'll go into each one in short. The SS teams see little threat in genesect due to being generally faster, scarfed gene or otherwise, and the frailty of the pokemon, while having no resistance to water. Since Damp rock has been banned, the strength of SS has been toned down quite a bit and the matchup is as skill (and luck) based as ever, and genesect has a small impact to this due to its coverage moves. Genesect shines much more against balanced water and water stall, although mainly if it's specially inclined, as it has access to both thunderbolt and energy ball, meaning that it can hit moderately hard against most of the pokes used on these teams. However, this fight is more prediction based, as it pretty much requires you to guess right whenever using genesect to not have it severely crippled or even die, and while u-turn spamming is definitely an option, there are practically no bug pokemon that can easily take stab water attacks, especially the SpA kind, and the general bulk of a large amount of water pokemon make them very difficult to wear down using this tactic. Overall, I would say that genesect improves the matchup for bug's side, but not by much.
Electric
Genesect doesn't have much of an impact against electric types, due to the fact that it doesn't really get any particularly useful coverage against electric teams, and while fast, remains to be outsped by quite a few dangerous pokemon on electric's side, the biggest offender here being mega-manectric. Moreover, sticky web is a smaller boon against electric due to both sides having access to it. The banded extremespeed set is the most useful here, but genesect does not particularly shine in this matchup.
Grass
The unbans were a mixed bag for the bug vs grass matchup. While bug got genesect, grass now has skymin, which is both faster and able to ohko it, as well as many other threats that bug could use against it. Due to seed flare, not many things can really deal with skymin on bug's side, especially since it is also immune to sticky web, while the matchup is not unbeatable for bug, especially due to strong priority moves from scizor and pinsir-mega, the new unbans definitely gave grass a bigger advantage. when only looking at genesect, mega venusaur can wall it quite effectively, especially if it runs earthquake, but obviously has problems against the previously mentioned mega pinsir, which frankly pretty much destroys grass as a whole.
Ice
This matchup is definitely in genesect's forte. with access to a powerful stab steel move on both attacking spectrums, this is basically a type that gene can actually sweep. However it is not as easy as it may seem on first look due to the newly unbanned kyu-w, which is faster and can guarantee an OHKO on gene, given the chance. The key to this matchup for both sides is obviously hazards, although bug comes out better from this due to the power of sticky web, as most of viable ice mons are grounded. With that being said, genesect shines little in this matchup, due to being outclassed by a certain priority steel type user, who becomes practically impossible to stop for ice, while only requiring rocks to be set up. While genesect is incredibly strong in this matchup, it's just an overkill poke, as ice has a lot of trouble beating bug anyway, due to the sheer a mount of pokes that run strong super effective moves against it.
Fighting
Mainly due to the existence of mega medicham, and to a lesser extent, hawlucha and sash nape, genesect shines little in this matchup. sticky web is crucial for bug, but due to a vide variety of pokes resisting whatever coverage gene has, it truly becomes a game of predicts, very similarly to water. What makes the matchup differ is that fighting pokes tend to have a lot of better super effective coverage than water's usual neutral or super effective stab. the biggest use of genesect here is killing off keldeo if possible and using u-turn to create momentum, although you could argue that galvantula actually does this job better, despite being even more frail.
Poison
In this matchup, genesect's main strength would be in dealing with nidos using icebeam and using it's strong stab steel moves against everything else. the matchup is kinda similar to grass, in a sense that pinsir mega can ruin a poison teams day quite hard, should it be running earthquake, and crobat could be seen as a significantly less problematic skymin. I have yet to see a poison team after the ladder restart on either main or frost server though.
Ground
Ground has always been a tricky matchup for bug, due to excadrill and garchomp being able to mandhandle volcarona and being somewhat lacking on ice, water and grass coverage. While some mons may run hp ice or giga drain, it was generally never enough to sweep ground due to it being able to somewhat resist all 3 types and kill the usually frail user of these moves in retaliation. With the addition of genesect, the matchup has changed, but not by much. Genesect has the ability to OHKO excadrill, although only if it uses blaze kick over flamethrower with Atk investment. However, this could be potentially huge for bug, as it, the landoruses and garchomp (which die to ice anything, conveniently), are the only things keeping volcarona in check from wreaking havoc on ground teams, especially if it runs giga drain. However, as is the case with most of the stronger types (and ground definitely is one of those), the fight is still very hard due to hazard setters being weak to either rock or 4x fire and sand rush exca killing everything ever with lorb stab earthquake.
Flying
Ah yes, the "after rocks genesect rapes anything with wings argument". I honestly believe that, while strong against flying, genesect's strength in the matchup is overrated, simply because bug never had good ice coverage before, and that has thrown flying users off guard, as it's an attack type they didn't need to prepare for from a type they usually have a clear advantage over. In reality, due to flying usually running one of the charizard megas, and with the bulky defenses of skarmory and zapdos, who sometimes both run defog, it is hard for bug to keep hazards up, while surviving the usually lethal attacks from the fliers, and having to deal with rocks themselves. While genesect really helps with the matchup due to triple beam coverage for example, it does not turn the mapside upside down into heavily bug favor simply because of that. As usual, the matchup relies heavily on predicting skills from both sides.
Psychic
I must admit, the new generic bug makes fighting the old generic psychic a joke. Genesect's fast u-turn, especially after an attack boost, makes some serious dents to whatever poke will be taking the hit, and there is very little that the usual mew, meloetta, slowbro, mega medi/mega garde, metagross, Lati@s psychic can do about it due to usually being outsped. However, should psychic implement scarf victini, surprise with scarf latios or even flamethrower slowbro, it can seriously make the bug user rethink the tactic of "hurrturn to win". Of course, you have to be able to deal with webs as a psychic user, but this has always been the case in this matchup, especially due to the usual bug team running about 4-5 pokes that can seriously hurt psychic pokes. Saying that gene can singlehandedly sweep psychic is flat out-wrong as it definitely has answers, they fight is just more difficult, albeit maybe more predictable for the psychic user (which is a good thing, no?)
Bug
Bug vs Bug is still volcarona and hazards centered, and the value of pinsir has lessent a bit due to an extra poke being able to deal with it, but other than that, the matchup has changed suprisingly little, especially since both sides will always have genesect and volcarona.
Rock
While rock has the similar problem that ice does in the form that, the steel bugs wreck a lot oh shit, rock has clear answer to them in two megas - aggron, and to a lesser extent, tyranitar running fire punch. While aggron isn't an ideal pokemon to run and tyranitar cannot take the hit as strong as aggron, they are both quite capable of not only killing genesect and scizor, but the rest of bug as well. rock has the problem with being generally slow, but besides genesect and heracross there are not that many pokemon that are fast and need to be watched out for. While genesect is a problem for rock, the type has a healthy amount of pokemon that can cripple it's sweeping potential (which it undeniably has), I've even seen fire fang aerodactyl more than once these last few days. The hardest set to deal with is most certainly the shift gear one, as it makes iron head truly a monstrous murder weapon, which pretty much only mega aggron can stop.
Ghost
I have to say that ghost is the most interesting matchup for me. It's pretty hard to predict, as most viable ghosts run different items and sets. Prediction however, serves as a large part of playing with genesect, so his value in this matchup is a bit diminished, especially since it doesn't have any particularly useful moves against ghosts (if one poke takes super effective damage from something, the other is immune or resists it), and u-turn itself is resisted.the choiced sets are for this reason the weakest, but quite a few ghosts are faster than it nad can deal quite heavy damage, therefore making genesect a rather mediocre pokemon in this matchup. On a side note, I seriously believe that ghost deserved getting aegislash back and it should not be banned again, as it seems to give ghost that extra "oomph" it was previously lacking.
Dragon
Hallelujah ice coverage! The thing bug missed the most was quite the disability before in this matchup, but now that it's fixed... it's still a difficult matchup. Dragon has a huge variety of pokemon some of which even deal with genesect quite well. As the threats are quite varied, bug generally needs to set up both rocks and web to be able to really deal with the sheer number of threats, and as previously mentioned, setting up multiple hazards is hardly ever easy. Not only that, but even with both hazards set, gene is still unable to deal with quite a few threats that dragon has, although if it's scarfed the list is basically scarfed levitating/flying dragons, most of which carry fire coverage. That being said, genesect is still amazing in this matchup, as very few things can manage to survive a download boosted ice beam and OHKO it back.
Dark
Dark is a trickier matchup for bug than most people seem to believe. Relying on sticky web is extremely dodgy, due to bisharp and bug not resisting sucker punch, but without the slowdown it's difficult to deal with some of the threats, most notably greninja, as bug doesn't really have any pokes that enjoy facetanking a life orb boosted hydro pump, while tyranitar can tank just about anything that isn't close combat or superpower, and then KO whatever hit it back. Dark however, has access to sableye for that any other Atk based threats, and, when combined with mandibuzz, ensure that dark's weaknesses are generally well covered. Saying that gene can handily beat dark with just u-turning is flat out wrong, because while it definitely helps, even dealing really good damage against some threats, it can be either healed off by the mandis and sables and flat out OHKOd by a +2 bisharp should it get the chance for a boost. A special variant of genesect with bug buzz would certainly do more damage, but has issues with tyranitar. Make no mistake though, even if gene can't outright deal with certain dark pokemon, he may be able to cripple them quite well, for other threats such as volcarona or heracross to finish off.
Steel
Before aegislash was banned, bug vs steel was the most infuriatingly difficult matchup for me. Unlike fire, which was basically "lose if you predict wrong once", steel you would lose to if you didn't run a specific set, unless your opponent misplays or you get lucky. While the matchup is still heavily prediction based, the banning of aegi from steel and now the unbanning of genesect have definitely made the matchup more managable, as bug now has an extra fire user who can do some serious damage, if not kill dangerous steel pokes who volcarona couldn't deal with, and mega heracross is more appealing, as throwing a close combat means that something is going to die, even if that something is a skarmory switching in. While steel also has access to genesect, it gets less value on its side of the matchup, as bug teams tend to run pokes that can take non-stab fire moves, with the exceptions of the bug/steel combination.
Fairy
The biggest problem for bug in this matchup is not mega mawile, although it certainly is a threat. The actual troublecausers would be the prankster twavers, klefki and whimsicott. Bug relies most on it's speed to deal with its matchups, and being paralized on priority is definitely the strongest counter to it, especially since bug doesn't run healbell/aromatherapy. While genesect, like scizor, can easily deal with most threats on a fairy team, even moreso with it's fire and electric coverage, it is also significantly worse off paralized, due to only having access to extremespeed as priority, and being much more frail. Naturally, it can deal great amounts of damage to a fairy team with it's steelstab of choice, but expecting a steel pokemon not to do too much damage to fairy is a bit dumb. in general, with or without a steel move, it is certainly an useful mon in this matchup, but not as good as scizor.

Note that genesect, like any other pokemon, only has access to 4 moveslots and one item, and therefore can't have a moveset that would get the best out of it in any matchup, and while some sets are definitely really good against certain matchups, they are mediocre or weak against others, and a different poke could serve better in that matchup than genesect. I honestly believe that the strongest bug pokemon available in monotype remains volcarona, as it has incredible stats and decent coverage for what it's meant to do - be a late game sweeper, while resisting the most dangerous of bug's weaknesses.

Genesect should not be considered a sweeper, rather, it is an incredibly effective offensive pivot, one that bug has no effective alternative for, as ice coverage on viable pokemon is limited to hidden power ice, which is simply too weak to use unless the target has a 4x weakness to it, or it's the only really damaging option (such as against thundy-t, gliscor, landoruses), due to most rock attack users being slower than defensive roosting fliers, or in thundurus' case, being volt switched into skarmory to tank it with no problems.

That's pretty much all that comes to mind right now that I wanted to say about genesect. I would understand if the overall opinion would be to reban genesect, as i can see how it cause serious problems in some matchups. However, reading what has been posted so far, it seems to me that most people have (understandably) incredibly biased views on gene being too OP for the monotype meta. That, and the people posting replays of genesect "singlehandedly" winning a game should be more observant on whether the opposing team of the genesect user (or any of the ubers released, for that matter) made some misplays that led to the defeat in which the unbanned poke played a part in, think what they could have done better and if the situation was inevitable. Some of these really seem to be played against inexperienced players.

 

[Glob Of Ectoplasm]

http://i.imgur.com/FFQddPB.png

Now,Why did we unban this thing?It can go on for days with a scarf :[.

I remember that match, I was testing grass :D

I totally agree with you, with shayminS grass type become a Gr-hax type. But if so, also a scarf togekiss could be in the banlist, even more than skymin considering it is bulkier. We should just consider how players are forced to change their team in order to face these new pokemon in the metagame, and honestly you can't do so much vs hax

 

[all falls down]

As a bug type user, i would like to give my slightly biased thoughts on genesect. While I may not be the best bug user in the world, i believe my skill with the type is prominent enough that my thoughts on the poke should not be automatically discarded. With that said, onto the matter at hand.

Genesect
I have a hard time deciding if genesect is broken or not. On one hand it gets extremely good coverage, especially against types that are otherwise problematic to bug, especially flying. While one could make an argument that genesect with douse drive could punch holes into fire teams as well (and it certainly can in the perfect circumstances) with the help of sticky web, in reality the matchup hardly ever goes well enough for this situation to arise, mainly due to the fact that fire always runs charizard, whose both mega forms halve the damge water does to them (and others for chari-y), while also being guaranteed a ohko onto genesect, while being faster than it because it's not running scarf. While charizard (and fire teams as a whole) are weak to stealth rock, setting up multiple hazards against pokemon that are all pretty much guaranteed to 2hko in the best case scenario is an incredibly hard stunt to pull, and if you manage that then you really aren't winning due to genesect, but being able to outplay the opposing player. While douse drive can occasionally win you a game against fire, i believe it is inferior to the other prominent sets it runs, mainly the physical banded/shiftgear and scarfed special variants, due to it's unreliability of doing heavy damage. Regardless, charizard-x for example, has (barring sturdy and sash, but fire uses rocks too) 3 pokemon that don't get OHKO to worry about on a bug team after +1 DDance - a fully defense and hp invested armaldo (who still dies if rocks are up and can't OHKO back regardless), crustle, who has the same issue as armaldo, and shuckle (lol). Everything else is either too frail or simply not viable in the current metagame due to largely inferior stats (such as masquerain). Regardless, fire beating bug is nothing new and should not be the main focus of this post.

I will go into detail on how good genesect is against each other matchup as well, as i have battled each one (except poison, so that will be purely speculation) a couple of times or more.
Normal
Against a normal team, genesect behaves similarly to scizor, in while it can't really sweep without setting up, due to it's typing it's pretty hard to kill, as normal usually doesn't run more than one fire move, if even that. Then again, seeing (as previously mentioned), that all the additions to the monotype roster are weak to fire, i believe smarter players have incremented at least some fire moves onto their team. as for the matchup itself, there are not a lot of pokemon normal has that can stand toe to toe with genesect. Normal's first priority when dealing with genesect would be to figure out it's set, making a guess based on the lineup and then using what walls they have on their team to confirm, or use ditto if genesect carries a fire move and no scarf. It is hard for a normal team to be prepared for all of genesect's sets while still being viable to use against every other type, so with that in mind, normal has a genuine disadvantage against bug with genesect. However, since bug teams have a tendency to run mons with incredibly strong close combats (be it pinsir or heracross, or even superpower scizor), i have so far been under the impression that bug has an advantage regardless, genesect just makes the fight even harder.
Water
Since there are a few different water team types, I'll go into each one in short. The SS teams see little threat in genesect due to being generally faster, scarfed gene or otherwise, and the frailty of the pokemon, while having no resistance to water. Since Damp rock has been banned, the strength of SS has been toned down quite a bit and the matchup is as skill (and luck) based as ever, and genesect has a small impact to this due to its coverage moves. Genesect shines much more against balanced water and water stall, although mainly if it's specially inclined, as it has access to both thunderbolt and energy ball, meaning that it can hit moderately hard against most of the pokes used on these teams. However, this fight is more prediction based, as it pretty much requires you to guess right whenever using genesect to not have it severely crippled or even die, and while u-turn spamming is definitely an option, there are practically no bug pokemon that can easily take stab water attacks, especially the SpA kind, and the general bulk of a large amount of water pokemon make them very difficult to wear down using this tactic. Overall, I would say that genesect improves the matchup for bug's side, but not by much.
Electric
Genesect doesn't have much of an impact against electric types, due to the fact that it doesn't really get any particularly useful coverage against electric teams, and while fast, remains to be outsped by quite a few dangerous pokemon on electric's side, the biggest offender here being mega-manectric. Moreover, sticky web is a smaller boon against electric due to both sides having access to it. The banded extremespeed set is the most useful here, but genesect does not particularly shine in this matchup.
Grass
The unbans were a mixed bag for the bug vs grass matchup. While bug got genesect, grass now has skymin, which is both faster and able to ohko it, as well as many other threats that bug could use against it. Due to seed flare, not many things can really deal with skymin on bug's side, especially since it is also immune to sticky web, while the matchup is not unbeatable for bug, especially due to strong priority moves from scizor and pinsir-mega, the new unbans definitely gave grass a bigger advantage. when only looking at genesect, mega venusaur can wall it quite effectively, especially if it runs earthquake, but obviously has problems against the previously mentioned mega pinsir, which frankly pretty much destroys grass as a whole.
Ice
This matchup is definitely in genesect's forte. with access to a powerful stab steel move on both attacking spectrums, this is basically a type that gene can actually sweep. However it is not as easy as it may seem on first look due to the newly unbanned kyu-w, which is faster and can guarantee an OHKO on gene, given the chance. The key to this matchup for both sides is obviously hazards, although bug comes out better from this due to the power of sticky web, as most of viable ice mons are grounded. With that being said, genesect shines little in this matchup, due to being outclassed by a certain priority steel type user, who becomes practically impossible to stop for ice, while only requiring rocks to be set up. While genesect is incredibly strong in this matchup, it's just an overkill poke, as ice has a lot of trouble beating bug anyway, due to the sheer a mount of pokes that run strong super effective moves against it.
Fighting
Mainly due to the existence of mega medicham, and to a lesser extent, hawlucha and sash nape, genesect shines little in this matchup. sticky web is crucial for bug, but due to a vide variety of pokes resisting whatever coverage gene has, it truly becomes a game of predicts, very similarly to water. What makes the matchup differ is that fighting pokes tend to have a lot of better super effective coverage than water's usual neutral or super effective stab. the biggest use of genesect here is killing off keldeo if possible and using u-turn to create momentum, although you could argue that galvantula actually does this job better, despite being even more frail.
Poison
In this matchup, genesect's main strength would be in dealing with nidos using icebeam and using it's strong stab steel moves against everything else. the matchup is kinda similar to grass, in a sense that pinsir mega can ruin a poison teams day quite hard, should it be running earthquake, and crobat could be seen as a significantly less problematic skymin. I have yet to see a poison team after the ladder restart on either main or frost server though.
Ground
Ground has always been a tricky matchup for bug, due to excadrill and garchomp being able to mandhandle volcarona and being somewhat lacking on ice, water and grass coverage. While some mons may run hp ice or giga drain, it was generally never enough to sweep ground due to it being able to somewhat resist all 3 types and kill the usually frail user of these moves in retaliation. With the addition of genesect, the matchup has changed, but not by much. Genesect has the ability to OHKO excadrill, although only if it uses blaze kick over flamethrower with Atk investment. However, this could be potentially huge for bug, as it, the landoruses and garchomp (which die to ice anything, conveniently), are the only things keeping volcarona in check from wreaking havoc on ground teams, especially if it runs giga drain. However, as is the case with most of the stronger types (and ground definitely is one of those), the fight is still very hard due to hazard setters being weak to either rock or 4x fire and sand rush exca killing everything ever with lorb stab earthquake.
Flying
Ah yes, the "after rocks genesect rapes anything with wings argument". I honestly believe that, while strong against flying, genesect's strength in the matchup is overrated, simply because bug never had good ice coverage before, and that has thrown flying users off guard, as it's an attack type they didn't need to prepare for from a type they usually have a clear advantage over. In reality, due to flying usually running one of the charizard megas, and with the bulky defenses of skarmory and zapdos, who sometimes both run defog, it is hard for bug to keep hazards up, while surviving the usually lethal attacks from the fliers, and having to deal with rocks themselves. While genesect really helps with the matchup due to triple beam coverage for example, it does not turn the mapside upside down into heavily bug favor simply because of that. As usual, the matchup relies heavily on predicting skills from both sides.
Psychic
I must admit, the new generic bug makes fighting the old generic psychic a joke. Genesect's fast u-turn, especially after an attack boost, makes some serious dents to whatever poke will be taking the hit, and there is very little that the usual mew, meloetta, slowbro, mega medi/mega garde, metagross, Lati@s psychic can do about it due to usually being outsped. However, should psychic implement scarf victini, surprise with scarf latios or even flamethrower slowbro, it can seriously make the bug user rethink the tactic of "hurrturn to win". Of course, you have to be able to deal with webs as a psychic user, but this has always been the case in this matchup, especially due to the usual bug team running about 4-5 pokes that can seriously hurt psychic pokes. Saying that gene can singlehandedly sweep psychic is flat out-wrong as it definitely has answers, they fight is just more difficult, albeit maybe more predictable for the psychic user (which is a good thing, no?)
Bug
Bug vs Bug is still volcarona and hazards centered, and the value of pinsir has lessent a bit due to an extra poke being able to deal with it, but other than that, the matchup has changed suprisingly little, especially since both sides will always have genesect and volcarona.
Rock
While rock has the similar problem that ice does in the form that, the steel bugs wreck a lot oh shit, rock has clear answer to them in two megas - aggron, and to a lesser extent, tyranitar running fire punch. While aggron isn't an ideal pokemon to run and tyranitar cannot take the hit as strong as aggron, they are both quite capable of not only killing genesect and scizor, but the rest of bug as well. rock has the problem with being generally slow, but besides genesect and heracross there are not that many pokemon that are fast and need to be watched out for. While genesect is a problem for rock, the type has a healthy amount of pokemon that can cripple it's sweeping potential (which it undeniably has), I've even seen fire fang aerodactyl more than once these last few days. The hardest set to deal with is most certainly the shift gear one, as it makes iron head truly a monstrous murder weapon, which pretty much only mega aggron can stop.
Ghost
I have to say that ghost is the most interesting matchup for me. It's pretty hard to predict, as most viable ghosts run different items and sets. Prediction however, serves as a large part of playing with genesect, so his value in this matchup is a bit diminished, especially since it doesn't have any particularly useful moves against ghosts (if one poke takes super effective damage from something, the other is immune or resists it), and u-turn itself is resisted.the choiced sets are for this reason the weakest, but quite a few ghosts are faster than it nad can deal quite heavy damage, therefore making genesect a rather mediocre pokemon in this matchup. On a side note, I seriously believe that ghost deserved getting aegislash back and it should not be banned again, as it seems to give ghost that extra "oomph" it was previously lacking.
Dragon
Hallelujah ice coverage! The thing bug missed the most was quite the disability before in this matchup, but now that it's fixed... it's still a difficult matchup. Dragon has a huge variety of pokemon some of which even deal with genesect quite well. As the threats are quite varied, bug generally needs to set up both rocks and web to be able to really deal with the sheer number of threats, and as previously mentioned, setting up multiple hazards is hardly ever easy. Not only that, but even with both hazards set, gene is still unable to deal with quite a few threats that dragon has, although if it's scarfed the list is basically scarfed levitating/flying dragons, most of which carry fire coverage. That being said, genesect is still amazing in this matchup, as very few things can manage to survive a download boosted ice beam and OHKO it back.
Dark
Dark is a trickier matchup for bug than most people seem to believe. Relying on sticky web is extremely dodgy, due to bisharp and bug not resisting sucker punch, but without the slowdown it's difficult to deal with some of the threats, most notably greninja, as bug doesn't really have any pokes that enjoy facetanking a life orb boosted hydro pump, while tyranitar can tank just about anything that isn't close combat or superpower, and then KO whatever hit it back. Dark however, has access to sableye for that any other Atk based threats, and, when combined with mandibuzz, ensure that dark's weaknesses are generally well covered. Saying that gene can handily beat dark with just u-turning is flat out wrong, because while it definitely helps, even dealing really good damage against some threats, it can be either healed off by the mandis and sables and flat out OHKOd by a +2 bisharp should it get the chance for a boost. A special variant of genesect with bug buzz would certainly do more damage, but has issues with tyranitar. Make no mistake though, even if gene can't outright deal with certain dark pokemon, he may be able to cripple them quite well, for other threats such as volcarona or heracross to finish off.
Steel
Before aegislash was banned, bug vs steel was the most infuriatingly difficult matchup for me. Unlike fire, which was basically "lose if you predict wrong once", steel you would lose to if you didn't run a specific set, unless your opponent misplays or you get lucky. While the matchup is still heavily prediction based, the banning of aegi from steel and now the unbanning of genesect have definitely made the matchup more managable, as bug now has an extra fire user who can do some serious damage, if not kill dangerous steel pokes who volcarona couldn't deal with, and mega heracross is more appealing, as throwing a close combat means that something is going to die, even if that something is a skarmory switching in. While steel also has access to genesect, it gets less value on its side of the matchup, as bug teams tend to run pokes that can take non-stab fire moves, with the exceptions of the bug/steel combination.
Fairy
The biggest problem for bug in this matchup is not mega mawile, although it certainly is a threat. The actual troublecausers would be the prankster twavers, klefki and whimsicott. Bug relies most on it's speed to deal with its matchups, and being paralized on priority is definitely the strongest counter to it, especially since bug doesn't run healbell/aromatherapy. While genesect, like scizor, can easily deal with most threats on a fairy team, even moreso with it's fire and electric coverage, it is also significantly worse off paralized, due to only having access to extremespeed as priority, and being much more frail. Naturally, it can deal great amounts of damage to a fairy team with it's steelstab of choice, but expecting a steel pokemon not to do too much damage to fairy is a bit dumb. in general, with or without a steel move, it is certainly an useful mon in this matchup, but not as good as scizor.

Note that genesect, like any other pokemon, only has access to 4 moveslots and one item, and therefore can't have a moveset that would get the best out of it in any matchup, and while some sets are definitely really good against certain matchups, they are mediocre or weak against others, and a different poke could serve better in that matchup than genesect. I honestly believe that the strongest bug pokemon available in monotype remains volcarona, as it has incredible stats and decent coverage for what it's meant to do - be a late game sweeper, while resisting the most dangerous of bug's weaknesses.

Genesect should not be considered a sweeper, rather, it is an incredibly effective offensive pivot, one that bug has no effective alternative for, as ice coverage on viable pokemon is limited to hidden power ice, which is simply too weak to use unless the target has a 4x weakness to it, or it's the only really damaging option (such as against thundy-t, gliscor, landoruses), due to most rock attack users being slower than defensive roosting fliers, or in thundurus' case, being volt switched into skarmory to tank it with no problems.

That's pretty much all that comes to mind right now that I wanted to say about genesect. I would understand if the overall opinion would be to reban genesect, as i can see how it cause serious problems in some matchups. However, reading what has been posted so far, it seems to me that most people have (understandably) incredibly biased views on gene being too OP for the monotype meta. That, and the people posting replays of genesect "singlehandedly" winning a game should be more observant on whether the opposing team of the genesect user (or any of the ubers released, for that matter) made some misplays that led to the defeat in which the unbanned poke played a part in, think what they could have done better and if the situation was inevitable. Some of these really seem to be played against inexperienced players.

Ice
"the newly unbanned kyu-w, which is faster and can guarantee an OHKO on gene, given the chance."

Genesect is faster than Kyurem-white.

Flying
"While genesect really helps with the matchup due to triple beam coverage for example, it does not turn the mapside upside down into heavily bug favor simply because of that."

I disagree with this, as Genesect truly does turn the match upside down in favor for Bug. If Genesect manages to switch in on Skarmory (which should be easy enough, Skarmory comes in all the time as most of bug is physical) and gets the 1.5x download boost, something on the Flying player's side will have to be killed every time. And if the flying player decides to sacrifice Skarmory, Pinsir, Scolipede, Heracross and even Armaldo will wreak havoc on the flying team.Aside from this, Genesect can outspeed and revenge kill most Pokemon on a flying team, and it can very easily sweep if bug can manages to get Stealth rocks up.

Dark

I also disagree with you in that Genesect can indeed demolish entire dark teams with just U-turn and Bug buzz; as it happens, Genesect's +0 bug buzz will 2HKO every pokemon on a dark team, including non assault vest Tyranitar, and even including Umbreon after stealth rock. Dark's most common scarf is Hydreigon, who, unfortunately for him, is 1 speed below Genesect, meaning that scarfed Genesect will outspeed everything on a dark team and easily pick it apart, which heavily skews the match into Bug or Steel's favor. Dark is no match for the unparalleled momentum of Genesect.

 

[Inwhale]

Ice
"the newly unbanned kyu-w, which is faster and can guarantee an OHKO on gene, given the chance."

Genesect is faster than Kyurem-white.

Flying
"While genesect really helps with the matchup due to triple beam coverage for example, it does not turn the mapside upside down into heavily bug favor simply because of that."

I disagree with this, as Genesect truly does turn the match upside down in favor for Bug. If Genesect manages to switch in on Skarmory (which should be easy enough, Skarmory comes in all the time as most of bug is physical) and gets the 1.5x download boost, something on the Flying player's side will have to be killed every time. And if the flying player decides to sacrifice Skarmory, Pinsir, Scolipede, and even Armaldo will wreak havoc on the flying team.Aside from this, Genesect can outspeed and revenge kill most Pokemon on a flying team, and it can very easily sweep if bug can manages to get Stealth rocks up.

Dark

I also disagree with you in that Genesect can indeed demolish entire dark teams with just U-turn and Bug buzz; as it happens, Genesect's +0 bug buzz will 2HKO every pokemon on a dark team, including non assault vest Tyranitar, and even including Umbreon after stealth rock. Dark's most common scarf is Hydreigon, who, unfortunately for him, is 1 speed below Genesect, meaning that scarfed Genesect will outspeed everything on a dark team and easily pick it apart, which heavily skews the match into Bug or Steel's favor. Dark is no match for the unparalleled momentum of Genesect.

My mistake on the kyu-w, you are correct on it being faster, i must've overlooked it since i frankly don't rely on genesect vs ice.

As for flying, it's actually the case that genesect only gets a guaranteed kill on a charizard switch in for example if 2 out of 3 criterium are checked - the charizard has not mega evolved, rocks are down/damage dealt to charizard and the genesect is fully special invested scarf. if that is the case, then yes, it can effectively 2hko most flying pokemon. I have also noticed that a lot of flying users have begun to predict the genesect switch ins, and whirlwind or switch out skarmory on physical pokemon, who are in most cases, slightly slower than skarmory. While this is definitely an effective tactic, it's not guaranteed to work.

With 0 SpA investment, bug buzz can definitely not 2HKO a mandibuzz, unless, as you said in umbreon's case, stealth rocks are up. As i've seen due to the recent changes in the meta, scarf greninja has also gained in popularity, which, while slower with sticky webs set up, mean that a bisharp will be able to OHKO gene with sucker punch. Setting up rocks and then sweeping with gene is all well and good, but in reality it's not that easy bringing genesect in to a good player. I would also like to note that bug buzz genesect is quite rare, as genesect will almost always be running a fire move of choice, u-turn and ice beam. The last coverage move is usually steel, and while bug buzz is certainly an option, it is simply not as good as the others.

 

[scpinion]

Evidence as to why Genesect is op: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-oumonotype-935541
please someone explain how i could have played differently to win that game.
I have scarftini, i kill his heatran early, but genesect just revenge u-turns until all of my other pokes are gone

PLEASE SOMEONE TEACH ME HOW TO DEFEAT THIS NOW LEGAL POKEMON! I obviously am playing the game incorrectly, because Genesect is 4x weak to fire and doesnt even have base 100 speed!

Bossman, scarftini with v-create doesn't threaten genesect b/c of the stat drops. I'm not ready to comment on whether or not it actually is broken, but this does not serve as proof positive.

With the new 'mons in the meta we are all going to have to change up our old teams to play around them (it looks like you did?). Once the heatran went down scarftini w/ blue flare would have destroyed that team with the exception of mawile's sucker punch. Although that's not a problem either; you're plenty good enough to play around some sucker punches (as you show in the replay).

 

[DoW]

Hi Friends,

scpinion here; the new monotype tiering system finally gave me a reason to join the Smogon community. Monotype is my favorite tier and I want to make sure I offer my viewpoints on the changes that will coming over the next couple weeks. I've only had mobile since the server restart so I'm just now able to post this despite thinking about it for the past couple days.

First, I agree with dm35, before we continue making comments/suggestions on the individual 'mons it would be best to establish what is ban-worthy and specifically state what the goal for the tier is:



I'm not saying dm's criteria are what we should go by, but that the criteria should be established ASAP, such that we may make best use of our ~2 weeks for evaluation.

It seems there have been two options outlined thus far; and a consensus, or declaration from the admin, as to which is 'correct' is missing (please correct if I'm wrong):

1. Along the lines of dm35's post, ban pokemon that are "overcentralizing" or force multiple types to run specific sets/mons to stand a chance in a battle against a competent player. As dm said, talonflame is a great example, where grass, bug and fighting had trouble checking it. To me, this would be maintaining the status quo from before the unbans (with the addition of things deemed non-broken).
2. Bring down uber mons for underused types with the goal of creating equal usage among the various types. Skymin is, perhaps, the best example of this philosophy in action because it has brought grass usage up and, in turn, deterred the use of water, ground and fighting, which were previously common types (esp. at the top of the ladder). This option certainly leads to a more matchup based meta, as has been brought up by a number of other users in this thread

These are two very different routes for the tier and when developing my opinions on the new 'mons having an idea of what the end picture should look like would be immensely helpful.

I'm glad to finally join the Smogon community and look forward to seeing how the monotype meta develops.

-scp

While I shall be posting my thoughts later on, and for this week will simply be lurking and seeing how the metagame pans out, I felt the need to put this here.

Everyone please read this.

 

[all falls down]

My mistake on the kyu-w, you are correct on it being faster, i must've overlooked it since i frankly don't rely on genesect vs ice.

As for flying, it's actually the case that genesect only gets a guaranteed kill on a charizard switch in for example if 2 out of 3 criterium are checked - the charizard has not mega evolved, rocks are down/damage dealt to charizard and the genesect is fully special invested scarf. if that is the case, then yes, it can effectively 2hko most flying pokemon. I have also noticed that a lot of flying users have begun to predict the genesect switch ins, and whirlwind or switch out skarmory on physical pokemon, who are in most cases, slightly slower than skarmory. While this is definitely an effective tactic, it's not guaranteed to work.

With 0 SpA investment, bug buzz can definitely not 2HKO a mandibuzz, unless, as you said in umbreon's case, stealth rocks are up. As i've seen due to the recent changes in the meta, scarf greninja has also gained in popularity, which, while slower with sticky webs set up, mean that a bisharp will be able to OHKO gene with sucker punch. Setting up rocks and then sweeping with gene is all well and good, but in reality it's not that easy bringing genesect in to a good player. I would also like to note that bug buzz genesect is quite rare, as genesect will almost always be running a fire move of choice, u-turn and ice beam. The last coverage move is usually steel, and while bug buzz is certainly an option, it is simply not as good as the others.

Most Genesect run in monotype and in my opinion the most effective, is max Special attack and speed with 4 attack, choice scarf, U-turn, Ice beam, Flamethrower, and Thunderbolt/Bug buzz. Genesect in steel monotypes will want to run Bug buzz, and perhaps you're right in that Genesect on bug will forgo the Bug buzz. However, this does not change my point in that fully specially invested Genesect's Bug buzz 2HKO's every Pokemon on a dark monotype, including Mandibuzz. Steel moves on Genesect are also uncommon, in that it does not add to its coverage too much.

 

[inscribe]

KYUREM-WHITE; KEEP

Kyurem-White @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Turboblaze
EVs: 4 SpD / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Blizzard
- Fusion Flare
- Earth Power
- Draco Meteor

Kyurem-white is a recently unbanned Dragon/Ice type Pokemon that is allowed only in Ice Monotypes. Honestly, on paper, Kyurem-White seems so overpowered, and it seems that it can literally manhandle every Monotype there is by itself. But when you really start to use it, and when you really start to face it enough, you realize that it really doesn't destroy everything, which is extremely different from what you thought. Kyurem-white is generally just a strong Special Attacker paired with Choice items, or Life Orb. Kyurem-white is blessed with an amazing Special Attack stat, and an amazing Movepool to go with it, unlike Kyurem-black.

Why Kyurem-white should not be banned

Kyurem-white provides the weak Ice monotype with the power its been waiting for since Generation 1. Without Kyurem-white, Ice would be lost in this new banlist, and it would probably be the worst type ever. Honestly, Kyurem-white is a bit underwhelming, since I legitimately thought it would sweep everything in existence, and probably get the quick ban. But now, after I've seen it in use, after I've used it myself, I came to my current state of mind; keep Kyurem-white, it provides Ice with the offensive presence it needs to be a decent type overall.

• Kyurem-white blesses the Ice monotype with an amazing offensive presence.

• With his amazing speed, Kyurem-white can actually deal with Ice's ever so present weaknesses (Fire, Steel, Fighting, and etc).

• Kyurem-white misses on several OHKOs without a Choice Specs or Life Orb, and without those, he cannot outspeed the things he needs to check.

• Kyurem-white has a crippling weakness to Stealth Rock with prevents it from switching in and out too much, and Ice's Rapid Spinners are extremely frail in some defenses, like Cryogonal has pitiful Physical Defense.

 

[DoW]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. While ice needs a boost, boosting it by unleashing a broken pokemon on the metagame will hurt more than it will help. Moreover, while you say it can deal with fire and fighting, these types can deal with it better than others (especially fighting with mach punch spam) while the types that suffer most are those weak to ice such as flying, making the metagame more about luck of who you're up against than actual skill. Sure, it's not an auto-win against ever team. I'm not saying it is. I'm just saying it gives a massive advantage against certain types such as flying and grass, in a similar manner to talonflame vs. grass, bug and fighting.

Because of this I don't think you've actually adressed the reasons I think it should be banned, despite you continuing to say it shouldn't be.

 

[inscribe]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. While ice needs a boost, boosting it by unleashing a broken pokemon on the metagame will hurt more than it will help. Moreover, while you say it can deal with fire and fighting, these types can deal with it better than others (especially fighting with mach punch spam) while the types that suffer most are those weak to ice such as flying, making the metagame more about luck of who you're up against than actual skill. Sure, it's not an auto-win against ever team. I'm not saying it is. I'm just saying it gives a massive advantage against certain types such as flying and grass, in a similar manner to talonflame vs. grass, bug and fighting.

Because of this I don't think you've actually adressed the reasons I think it should be banned, despite you continuing to say it shouldn't be.

>comparing Kyurem-white to talonflame
The thing about Talonflame, was that when paired with its teammates, the opposing types literally stood no chance. Grass can still deal with Kyurem in the fact that Breloom kills it with Mach Punch after Rocks, and you can just set Avalugg to sleep and sweep the Ice team away. Froslass is checked by Venusaur, and yeah.

Kyurem-white is easily checked with its weakness to Stealth Rock and it's weak to all kinds of priority.

Also, you're not really giving any types of reasoning to ban Kyurem-white. You're just saying it's similar to Talonflame, but they are far from the same. Talonflame was literally uncheckable in combination with its powerful teammates, as they provided extremely bulky pivots, and powerful Pokemon in general. Kyurem-white is extremely different. Kyurem-white is honestly the only threatening Pokemon on Ice Monotypes, and paired with the only reliable Rapid Spinner, Avalugg, you lose tons of momentum every switch.

 

[all falls down]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. While ice needs a boost, boosting it by unleashing a broken pokemon on the metagame will hurt more than it will help. Moreover, while you say it can deal with fire and fighting, these types can deal with it better than others (especially fighting with mach punch spam) while the types that suffer most are those weak to ice such as flying, making the metagame more about luck of who you're up against than actual skill. Sure, it's not an auto-win against ever team. I'm not saying it is. I'm just saying it gives a massive advantage against certain types such as flying and grass, in a similar manner to talonflame vs. grass, bug and fighting.

Because of this I don't think you've actually adressed the reasons I think it should be banned, despite you continuing to say it shouldn't be.

With all due respect, have you actually played on the ladder the past week or tested Kyurem-white among the other Pokemon that were unbanned since the banlist changed? Kyurem-white does seem broken on paper but once you actually play games with it and against it you will see in practice that it can be played around.

 

[Crazy Horse]

Played around? Steel has 0 counters to it. So of course it improves that matchup. Yet I still haven't seen any pro-unban post address the reason these pokes were uber in the first place and why they have a place in monotype. I guess I'll say it again, These uber pokemon were banned for being broken in OU a tier much more diverse than Monotype. So to justify allowing them IMO you would need to counter the arguments they were banned for.

Deoxy-S and Deoxys-D I have abstained from but someone posted about the reason it was broken in OU not having an effect in mono(no bisharp and outclassed?).

The pokes I'm all up for banning is: Kyu-W, Skymin, Genesect, Mega Mawile(The reason its banned in OU is emphasized here...)


EDIT:

Efficiency

The metagame should be as efficient as possible in execution of gameplay and resolving outcomes.
Explanation:
Anything that does not directly help the metagame, hurts the metagame. Many elements of ingame Pokemon require little more than time, perseverance, or rote repetition to succeed. The metagame should place no value on these things. For serious competitive players, these elements are boring and distracting. They lessen the competitive challenge of the game and discourage expert players. The metagame should present the most direct and efficient mechanisms for players to play the game and determine winners. Any game element that does not directly contribute to improving the metagame, is inefficient and unnecessary. Such elements should be mitigated or removed, if possible.

Based on this I think we should ban Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D. Before all of the unbans Psychic was imo the best monotype since the banning of aegislash allowed it more options. It could be argued to be OP honestly. What made it the best mono to me is that it didn't have any auto-loss clauses, All of Psychic's Matchups can be determined neutral or advantage for psychic. As post Aegis-ban being a top tier type I don't see what Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D do for it if people on the thread been saying it is outclassed by mew and etc. That quote was from Characteristics of A Desirable Metagame Thread. Which I think a lot of you should check out.

 

[inscribe]

Played around? Steel has 0 counters to it. So of course it improves that matchup. Yet I still haven't seen any pro-unban post address the reason these pokes were uber in the first place and why they have a place in monotype. I guess I'll say it again, These uber pokemon were banned for being broken in OU a tier much more diverse than Monotype. So to justify allowing them IMO you would need to counter the arguments they were banned for.

Deoxy-S and Deoxys-D I have abstained from but someone posted about the reason it was broken in OU not having an effect in mono(no bisharp and outclassed?).

The pokes I'm all up for banning is: Kyu-W, Skymin, Genesect, Mega Mawile(The reason its banned in OU is emphasized here...)

That bit in bold is invalid in so many ways. Again, OU≠Monotype. The OU Council's reasoning for banning certain Pokemon to Ubers is irrelevant in this tier as they are different Metagames.

Also, I'm sick of people using 'it was ubers lmfao ur tier is so borked,,,, ban that shit already xd' as an excuse to ban everything they deem 'overpowered', even though I highly doubt they have any experience with any of these unbanned Pokemon, if you even resort to that as an excuse. I'm sorry, but 'they were ubers... xD' isn't going to make me, or anyone else change their minds about these unbanned Pokemon.

 

[Croven]

Ok, so I had a couple minutes of spare time to ladder with Ice and see how KyuW is doing. I got two battles underway, and conveniently there was one favorable matchup, v Ground, and one unfavorable matchup, v Steel. Here are the replays (ignore misplays and bad teambuilding pls :[)

Ice v Ground. This replay showcases me using Ice and battling a Ground team. I might have misused KyuW, these are my first two battles with it lol, because I only pulled it out in the end, which isn't a great idea considering I was a Life Orbed KyuW. The thing is, KyuW didn't really help me win the battle, it was Mamoswine's LO'ed Ice Shard swept late game easily, once Excadrill was weakened and Gastro was taken out. Excadrill was weakened by Mamoswine itself, and Gastrodon by Cloyster. What prevented me from using it was its low base speed, which really just did not do it any favors, especially against an offensive team such as Ground. Again, take everything I say with a grain of salt, skill has a big factor in this and this was literally my 2nd battle using KyuW.

Ice v Steel. This replay shows me facing a Steel team, which all of us know is a very difficult matchup for Ice. The non-Choiced KyuW only was able to KO Skarmory, and that itself was late game. With Magnezone (possibly Scarfed, I don't know), Mawile, and Genesect right there, it was difficult for me to use it without fearing a move that could easily KO or severely weaken my KyuW. There wasn't even a Scizor on that team for me to fear, and yet KyuW still was underwhelming. Switch in opportunities were scarce; with LO and opposing attacks it would easily wear itself down to the point where any priority move would KO me. It really didn't show much of its potential in this, and the game was still lost.

What I realized is that KyuW is almost forced to run a Choice Scarf. Its sub-optimal speed meant that it was easily able to be revenge killed, by things like Garchomp (which commonly run Scarf anyway), Excadrill, and Landorus. Now I understand, it is a wallbreaker that comes in on things like Hippowdon and kills something immediately. However, these kind of sets tend to be more hit-and-run, as it is easily revenge killed. The thing that stops this from working considerably well is the fact that it is Rocks weak. Taking 25% from every time you switch into Rocks is not helping you wallbreak. If the opponent is smart, they can easily pressure your Avalugg and stop it from spinning away your hazards. Also, things such as Heatran can scout what move you want to use and switch appropriately. Scarf KyuW is looking like the best set right now, and that itself has some fatal flaws.

I will be testing more sets (mostly Scarf), and will get to know this Ubers monster a bit more, so don't feel like these paragraphs are my final opinion, as this was just something quick I wanted to throw out there, the fact that Scarf is its most viable set overall, and we all know that Choice Scarfers are easily played around. So anyway, bye, and I will be back later with more replays to show.


P.S. To the others who say 'KyuB is used on Ice mono and not everyone runs Scarf on that, so why should everybody Scarf this thing', in my experience, Scarf KyuB was also pretty much the only option there was. To give Ice any chance v Fighting, I had to Scarf it to Rkill many opposing threats, and I don't think the thought process behind Scarfing KyuW will be very different. On that note, I'm out.

 

[Belgian Fírnen]

Played around? Steel has 0 counters to it. So of course it improves that matchup. Yet I still haven't seen any pro-unban post address the reason these pokes were uber in the first place and why they have a place in monotype. I guess I'll say it again, These uber pokemon were banned for being broken in OU a tier much more diverse than Monotype. So to justify allowing them IMO you would need to counter the arguments they were banned for.

Wich all respect i've for u, if you think that OU and OU monotype have the same metagame?
You are completely wrong there.
If you give OU cases to ban some Pokemons to monotype, please keep these cases.

Aegislash is banned in OU but he isn't in mono (ghost).
Talonflam isn't banned in OU but banned in mono.


I've done more than 200 games after the update, so, i think know better the mono meta than you (and i'm too #1 at the moment), at the begining i thought like you that Kyurem-W was broken for the OU MONO meta but he isn't like Genesect (for bug: This replay shows Dark team can beat Bug teams:http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159307077 ), Shymin and M-Maw (for fairy).

 

[Nochman.EXE]

'Reliable Mega Venusaur Killer'

There's not really anything like that unless you wanna run Assault Vest Slowking, since Tentacruel honestly gets easily worn down by hazards if it continuously switches into Sludge Bombs and other moves. Anyways, I agree with Belgian Fírnen . Water was and is pretty easy to defeat with Grass even before the Shaymin-Sky unban.

+

+

Ultimately, your Sap Sipper Azumarill + Assault Vest Slowking + Tentacruel core is going to get worn down by hazards, due to Azumarill and Tentacruel not having reliable recovery. Of course, there's another three Pokemon to worry about, and they probably can absolutely destroy a Grass Team if you can somehow preserve Azumarill, but honestly, if the Grass User plays smart, he wouldn't just spam Grass moves like willy-nilly. All in all, this core can destroy a Grass Mono, but it's pretty counter-teamy, honestly. If you build a Water monotype just around defeating Grass Monotypes, you won't get very far. Any Hyper Offensive typing, like Fighting, or even Fire, can break through this core. Of course Azumarill poses a bit of a threat to both of them, but honestly, Azumarill doesn't enjoy switching in on a Breloom's Rock Tomb, or a Charizard-Y's Sun boosted Fire Blasts or Air Slashes. I still like this core a bit, and I think I'm going to make a team around it.

Literally anything with Psychic or Extrasensory kills Venusaur-Mega

Sorry just had to say that

 

[DoW]

I've done more than 200 games after the update, so, i think know better the mono meta than you (and i'm too #1 at the moment), at the begining i thought like you that Kyurem-W was broken for the OU MONO meta but he isn't like Genesect (for bug: This replay shows Dark team can beat Bug teams:http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159307077 ), Shymin and M-Maw (for fairy).

Ok let's take an in-depth look at turn 1. It seems to me that Firnen made a misplay in leading with genesect because that was by far the most predictable play, and while Scarf U-turn isn't exactly easy to play around any good dark team is going to have something that either 1) walls it and can hit whatever comes in with knock off, for example, or 2) will beat it like this zoroark does. Ok it's still not a simple thing but I know with my flying team I'd be sending out MegaZard X to flare blitz whatever comes in, while on my poison team I'd probably send in mega venusaur to get up a nice leech seed or sleep powder on the switch-in. All I'm trying to do is show that having genesect doesn't mean you can just play mindlessly.

Secondly, team preview shows Zoroark. While this gen scarf isn't a particularly common set it was reasonably common back in gen 5, so is far from unheard of. Also, we know dark teams struggle with genesect, mawile etc. so they're likely to want something that can do well against steel teams, such as a scarf zoroark with flamethrower and focus miss. Sure this might not be particularly easy to predict, nobody's saying that, but no dark player at that level's just going to sit there and let genesect beat them. They're going to have something up their sleeve.

So leading with genesect was a bad move. It would have been better to lead with, say, volcarona (which would still be a very strong offensive lead) or protect scolipede to scout their sets a little.

And also, this is a one-trick pony. If you see them on the ladder again you won't fall for the same trick again, and suddenly they're going to struggle with dealing with genesect because you'll predict them sending in zoroark, send in volcarona, and utterly destroy them.

And like I said, while scarf zoroark was reasonably common last gen, it's uncommon this gen. Meaning that the dark player's having to use a pokemon that isn't particularly great just to beat this one threat, which it can't always do anyway because next time Firnen will be more careful when he faces one.

So because of that I think the replay shows genesect can be beaten, once, if the genesect user makes a misplay. It still seems to skew games against certain types far too much, even if it's only 90%-win when playing mindlessly, rather than an auto-win.

 

[Glob Of Ectoplasm]

I totally agree, I had to find out how to surprise my opponent and kill genesect as soon as possible. It's sure I can't do the same next time I fight vs him: of course I will change my strategy but that sucks in general. At the beginning I tought genesect just for bug was ok, but then I realize it's totally unpredictable and the u-turn spam catching the momentum in sinergy with scizor can give free set ups to volcarona. I was used to play hydragon but... it's overspeeded by 1 point from genesect. No way, really :D we are talking about UU pokemon vs Uber

 

[Belgian Fírnen]

Ok let's take an in-depth look at turn 1. It seems to me that Firnen made a misplay in leading with genesect because that was by far the most predictable play, and while Scarf U-turn isn't exactly easy to play around any good dark team is going to have something that either 1) walls it and can hit whatever comes in with knock off, for example, or 2) will beat it like this zoroark does. Ok it's still not a simple thing but I know with my flying team I'd be sending out MegaZard X to flare blitz whatever comes in, while on my poison team I'd probably send in mega venusaur to get up a nice leech seed or sleep powder on the switch-in. All I'm trying to do is show that having genesect doesn't mean you can just play mindlessly.

Secondly, team preview shows Zoroark. While this gen scarf isn't a particularly common set it was reasonably common back in gen 5, so is far from unheard of. Also, we know dark teams struggle with genesect, mawile etc. so they're likely to want something that can do well against steel teams, such as a scarf zoroark with flamethrower and focus miss. Sure this might not be particularly easy to predict, nobody's saying that, but no dark player at that level's just going to sit there and let genesect beat them. They're going to have something up their sleeve.

So leading with genesect was a bad move. It would have been better to lead with, say, volcarona (which would still be a very strong offensive lead) or protect scolipede to scout their sets a little.

And also, this is a one-trick pony. If you see them on the ladder again you won't fall for the same trick again, and suddenly they're going to struggle with dealing with genesect because you'll predict them sending in zoroark, send in volcarona, and utterly destroy them.

And like I said, while scarf zoroark was reasonably common last gen, it's uncommon this gen. Meaning that the dark player's having to use a pokemon that isn't particularly great just to beat this one threat, which it can't always do anyway because next time Firnen will be more careful when he faces one.

So because of that I think the replay shows genesect can be beaten, once, if the genesect user makes a misplay. It still seems to skew games against certain types far too much, even if it's only 90%-win when playing mindlessly, rather than an auto-win.

Ok so, for my bug team, honnestly, order of Pokemon are useless, if you consider this as a way to play, it's false, why? In this bug team everybody would know that leader will be Genesect...
So, it isn't a bad move.

Most of Zoroark in Monotype aren't play like scarf but Life Orb (Think is different in my opinion of precedent generation like you said.).

So your conclusion about the replay is "Genesect is bad when user is bad, you've put genesect in leader in team preview, it's bad".
No, it isn't a case this because i don't think be very bad.

How can you judge on this point?

You talk about danger of Genesect-U-Turn, well, it's true but when your team is weak to Stealth Rock, it's more difficult.
But you didn't say it.
"You have to have a defoger, Spiner", well,for bugs Foretress, Scizor and Armaldo are the most commun but these Pokemons (except Scizor) can be easily killed...

 

[all falls down]

Literally anything with Psychic or Extrasensory kills Venusaur-Mega

Sorry just had to say that

Well, let's see what on a water team can use a strong Psychic move able to kill Mega Venusaur.

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 179-213 (49.1 - 58.5%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 242-283 (66.4 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 250-296 (68.6 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 187-221 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Slowking Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 204-240 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Slowking Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 152-180 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 108-128 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 15.9% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 146-174 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

In response to all of these Venusaur will be using giga drain;

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 218-260 (83.2 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 127-151 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Slowking: 176-210 (44.7 - 53.4%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 230-272 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see, Venusaur will be healing substantially in all four of these cases: so much so that it will nearly heal off all of the damage it has taken in 3 of the 4 cases. Consequently it is quite obvious here that none of these can reliably take on Venusaur, with the exception of life orb Greninja. This leaves only one answer to Venusaur, and with that, it is quite easy to bait and kill this one answer, especially with Greninja's paper-thin defenses. This paired with Stealth rock damage and Life orb recoil, it is very easy to eliminate Greninja, not even mentioning that Ferrothorn can easy sponge all of Greninja's hits barring a rare hidden power fire (if it is using Extrasensory, it likely has no room for hp fire..). This leads to the fact that whenever Venusaur switches in, it will kill something or out-stall it as Greninja will easily get taken out by a giga drain on the switch (0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 254-302 (88.8 - 105.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO)
So no, "anything with psychic" does not kill the mighty swag plant.

 

[Crazy Horse]

Wich all respect i've for u, if you think that OU and OU monotype have the same metagame?
You are completely wrong there.
If you give OU cases to ban some Pokemons to monotype, please keep these cases.

Aegislash is banned in OU but he isn't in mono (ghost).
Talonflam isn't banned in OU but banned in mono.


I've done more than 200 games after the update, so, i think know better the mono meta than you (and i'm too #1 at the moment), at the begining i thought like you that Kyurem-W was broken for the OU MONO meta but he isn't like Genesect (for bug: This replay shows Dark team can beat Bug teams:http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-159307077 ), Shymin and M-Maw (for fairy).

I don't think they have the same metagame although I do think they have a similar one. Monotype teams usually try to live up to OU standards(correct me if I'm mistaken) although since its more match up based you run a bit different movesets. Unlike other OMs such as AAA which can't even be compared to OU , Mono can. Monotype is really just OU with a restriction as I see it. It's not like the other OMs with completely different mechanics. Hey if you think they are so different like I said before, please show how these pokes reasoning of getting banned there doesn't show here. Weighing knowledge of the meta is hard, but I do believe you're more credible than me numbers wise. Alright I'll investigate Kyu-W, because so far statistically its broken. Since in battle it may not be, I'll do 50 or so battles against and with Kyu-W and post on it again when I'm done.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

All im gonna say is dropping these pokes from ubers was a horrid idea, I get what you were trying to do but in all honesty the metagame is totally flipped around when it was so close to achieving a decent enough balance >.>.. Anyways when your using mono ice and your getting rid of your best poke (kyurem-black) for a different poke and your beating your weakness 6-0 you know it's overpowered. Also shaymin-sky has serene grace seed flare+air slash along with earth power which is helpful on both of its monos for its weakness, overall this one poke alone is why mono grass is winning some battles because in all honesty the majority of it's users now used different type before, even though its a type they may never have used before they are now beating some of the best poison users along with all its other weaknesses because of shaymin-s.

Also i don't understand why deoxys, genesect, and mega mawile dropped in the first place. All the monos they belong too were already great and in all honesty they aren't needed.

None of the pokemon unbanned deserved it and it shouldn't have happened in the first place. This is just gonna make mono steel never used since its it's so easily beat by mono ice and dragon now and all the monos that didn't get a uber never used as well. People are gonna go towards the mono's that get a uber because of the uber and no other reason. In fact before the ban there were people that got to #1 on the mono ladder with grass and ice before the unbans along with great ghost users after the aegislash ban.

The unbans did nothing but make people use even less monos than before, there used to be people that would use mono ice or grass but now everyone is using them and everyone else that is looking for a strong mono is just going for those 2 monos. Even if you make it banned for only one mono like aegislash, that mono will gain significant usage. Stuff like this has happened before like how talon made fire mono wayyy more common but the second it was banned fire was used like any other mono.

Overall ice and grass were already good types and i've seen good fighting users lose to ice users and similar with grass and it's weaknesses. Overall giving an underrated type a pokemon that clearly deserves ubers is not going to magically make the metagame balanced. In a way ou and mono are tied really closely together so that when talon got banned from mono for example it lost significant usage in ou. In mono when theres a pokemon that can easily threaten others its going to make more of an impact due to the fact that there is less likely a counter and more chances to set up. Aegislash for example was everywhere and it could easily sweep with weakness policy.

Also the fact that people were saying ice sucked before unban and now its op because of k-w. Overrall even if the uber pokemon was really fine or wasn't a threat at all in mono the fact that it's a uber alone will cause the usage to go insane and there will be people saying that its op. So many people are using the "weaker types" now so ill acknowledge that much worked but now everything is totally messed up.

I'm going to say the prescense of a uber alone will cause insane usage and overall mess up the balance of the metagame. After all it is OU monotype.

I'll say the idea is cool but just make snow warning create like infinite hail or chlorophyl cause a turn of sun upon switch in cause something like this will cause grass and ice usage even though they're already perfectly fine types.

 

[Croven]

All im gonna say is dropping these pokes from ubers was a horrid idea, I get what you were trying to do but in all honesty the metagame is totally flipped around when it was so close to achieving a decent enough balance >.>.. Anyways when your using mono ice and your getting rid of your best poke (kyurem-black) for a different poke and your beating your weakness 6-0 you know it's overpowered. Also shaymin-sky has serene grace seed flare+air slash along with earth power which is helpful on both of its monos for its weakness, overall this one poke alone is why mono grass is winning some battles because in all honesty the majority of it's users now used different type before, even though its a type they may never have used before they are now beating some of the best poison users along with all its other weaknesses because of shaymin-s.

Also i don't understand why deoxys, genesect, and mega mawile dropped in the first place. All the monos they belong too were already great and in all honesty they aren't needed.

None of the pokemon unbanned deserved it and it shouldn't have happened in the first place. This is just gonna make mono steel never used since its it's so easily beat by mono ice and dragon now and all the monos that didn't get a uber never used as well. People are gonna go towards the mono's that get a uber because of the uber and no other reason. In fact before the ban there were people that got to #1 on the mono ladder with grass and ice before the unbans along with great ghost users after the aegislash ban.

The unbans did nothing but make people use even less monos than before, there used to be people that would use mono ice or grass but now everyone is using them and everyone else that is looking for a strong mono is just going for those 2 monos. Even if you make it banned for only one mono like aegislash, that mono will gain significant usage. Stuff like this has happened before like how talon made fire mono wayyy more common but the second it was banned fire was used like any other mono.

Overall ice and grass were already good types and i've seen good fighting users lose to ice users and similar with grass and it's weaknesses. Overall giving an underrated type a pokemon that clearly deserves ubers is not going to magically make the metagame balanced. In a way ou and mono are tied really closely together so that when talon got banned from mono for example it lost significant usage in ou. In mono when theres a pokemon that can easily threaten others its going to make more of an impact due to the fact that there is less likely a counter and more chances to set up. Aegislash for example was everywhere and it could easily sweep with weakness policy.

Also the fact that people were saying ice sucked before unban and now its op because of k-w. Overrall even if the uber pokemon was really fine or wasn't a threat at all in mono the fact that it's a uber alone will cause the usage to go insane and there will be people saying that its op. So many people are using the "weaker types" now so ill acknowledge that much worked but now everything is totally messed up.

I'm going to say the prescense of a uber alone will cause insane usage and overall mess up the balance of the metagame. After all it is OU monotype.

I'll say the idea is cool but just make snow warning create like infinite hail or chlorophyl cause a turn of sun upon switch in cause something like this will cause grass and ice usage even though they're already perfectly fine types.

In my honest opinion (and I'm not trying to be rude here), I wholeheartedly disagree with many of the statements you just said. First, how exactly were we so close to achieving decent balance? Ice, Grass and Ghost were almost never seen, and Flying, Steel, and Water dominated the upper ladders completely. In my book, 'Balance' occurs when each and every type has a similar amount of viability, with some being slightly more viable than others, and every type can use multiple strategies and can defeat each of their weaknesses with smart teambuilding and playing, without relying on the other player making mistakes. Ice and Grass definitely do not fit these standards, as they have FAR less viability than say, Flying or Water. Also, if the other opponent plays fairly well, it is near impossible for the Ice or Grass user to overcome their weakness. Only in extreme cases have they been able to do this.

Deoxys, Mawile, and Aegislash dropped because they simply weren't broken in Monotype; there was no reason for it to be banned in the first place.

"Overall Ice and Grass were already good types" I'm afraid I'll have to say no to this one. Ice and Grass were not at all good types, and people that could succeed with them either had a lot of experience with Monotype in general and that type, got really lucky (cough Anttyaz cough), or are simply extremely skilled battlers. These monotypes simply couldn't deal with all the threats on any team. For example, what exactly is switching in on a Sun boosted Charizard Y Fire Blast, in either Grass or Ice? Nothing that doesn't want to get 2HKO'ed. And then they also lack a surefire method of Revenge Killing the said threat afterwards. Grass and Ice really were not viable and were extremely difficult to use.

Time to wrap this up. First, all of these unbannings were to see if unbanning Ubers could make certain types more viable and increase their usage. If it doesn't work, then they will simply be banned again. Second, no, Ice and Grass were not good types previously. Finally, most of these statements you said were not completely logical; yes, these types will be more used, that is the point. No, not all of them are overpowered, and even if they are, that's what the suspect test is for. I encourage you to seriously play on the ladder with several different types, playing with the Ubers and playing with the types they are strong against, form a logical opinion with solid replays for proof, and then come back. After you have done that, then I will start to thoughtfully discuss, with my own replays and your possible ones, whether or not these mons are broken. Thank you and have a great day.


Btw, I might have gone a bit overboard saying that Ice and Grass sucked. I'll just clarify that I meant that they were outclassed by the other types, not that they utterly sucked.
(lol @ mono steel never used)

 

[inscribe]

I don't think they have the same metagame although I do think they have a similar one. Monotype teams usually try to live up to OU standards(correct me if I'm mistaken) although since its more match up based you run a bit different movesets. Unlike other OMs such as AAA which can't even be compared to OU , Mono can. Monotype is really just OU with a restriction as I see it. It's not like the other OMs with completely different mechanics. Hey if you think they are so different like I said before, please show how these pokes reasoning of getting banned there doesn't show here. Weighing knowledge of the meta is hard, but I do believe you're more credible than me numbers wise. Alright I'll investigate Kyu-W, because so far statistically its broken. Since in battle it may not be, I'll do 50 or so battles against and with Kyu-W and post on it again when I'm done.

I agree, statistically, it is broken. Statistically, Slaking, or Regigigas is broken. The difference between OU and Monotype is yes, that it is more match-up based, thus you have to run different movesets to pretty much counterteam anything that gives you trouble, but also that you don't have access to everything. For example: You can't pair up Kyurem-white with a reliable defogger/spinner like Zapdos, or Armaldo/Forretress. Same thing goes for Shaymin-sky, he really can't get rid of rocks reliably,,, unless you wanna use Shiftry,, (lol)

 

[all falls down]

All im gonna say is dropping these pokes from ubers was a horrid idea, I get what you were trying to do but in all honesty the metagame is totally flipped around when it was so close to achieving a decent enough balance >.>.. Anyways when your using mono ice and your getting rid of your best poke (kyurem-black) for a different poke and your beating your weakness 6-0 you know it's overpowered. Also shaymin-sky has serene grace seed flare+air slash along with earth power which is helpful on both of its monos for its weakness, overall this one poke alone is why mono grass is winning some battles because in all honesty the majority of it's users now used different type before, even though its a type they may never have used before they are now beating some of the best poison users along with all its other weaknesses because of shaymin-s.

Also i don't understand why deoxys, genesect, and mega mawile dropped in the first place. All the monos they belong too were already great and in all honesty they aren't needed.

None of the pokemon unbanned deserved it and it shouldn't have happened in the first place. This is just gonna make mono steel never used since its it's so easily beat by mono ice and dragon now and all the monos that didn't get a uber never used as well. People are gonna go towards the mono's that get a uber because of the uber and no other reason. In fact before the ban there were people that got to #1 on the mono ladder with grass and ice before the unbans along with great ghost users after the aegislash ban.

The unbans did nothing but make people use even less monos than before, there used to be people that would use mono ice or grass but now everyone is using them and everyone else that is looking for a strong mono is just going for those 2 monos. Even if you make it banned for only one mono like aegislash, that mono will gain significant usage. Stuff like this has happened before like how talon made fire mono wayyy more common but the second it was banned fire was used like any other mono.

Overall ice and grass were already good types and i've seen good fighting users lose to ice users and similar with grass and it's weaknesses. Overall giving an underrated type a pokemon that clearly deserves ubers is not going to magically make the metagame balanced. In a way ou and mono are tied really closely together so that when talon got banned from mono for example it lost significant usage in ou. In mono when theres a pokemon that can easily threaten others its going to make more of an impact due to the fact that there is less likely a counter and more chances to set up. Aegislash for example was everywhere and it could easily sweep with weakness policy.

Also the fact that people were saying ice sucked before unban and now its op because of k-w. Overrall even if the uber pokemon was really fine or wasn't a threat at all in mono the fact that it's a uber alone will cause the usage to go insane and there will be people saying that its op. So many people are using the "weaker types" now so ill acknowledge that much worked but now everything is totally messed up.

I'm going to say the prescense of a uber alone will cause insane usage and overall mess up the balance of the metagame. After all it is OU monotype.

I'll say the idea is cool but just make snow warning create like infinite hail or chlorophyl cause a turn of sun upon switch in cause something like this will cause grass and ice usage even though they're already perfectly fine types.

"just make snow warning create like infinite hail or chlorophyl cause a turn of sun upon switch in cause something like this will cause grass and ice usage even though they're already perfectly fine types."

So you would rather change Game Mechanics than test a few uber Pokemon?

gud 1