Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

[Omega-Xis]

I feel like you guys need to read this, me and many fire users are concerned abou how low is fire in this meta :/ http://pastebin.com/xs37Yam2
So uhm, think about it! ñ3ñ

All you people talking about Talonflame need to have a wake-up call. Choice Band? What is this? This whole discussion of CB TFlame makes me sad.

Auburn please take them on the adventures of Bulk Up TFlame. I'd like to do it but I'm sure you can lay it out far more eloquently given you had more experience and I just kind of started using the set after seeing it.

 

[RedsCharizard]

The reason that Talonflame was banned was because it granted the user a guaranteed victory against the previously mentioned types - bug, grass and fighting. Once Talonflame gets in for free, something dies on those monos, no matter what. Most of your arguments are based on 1v1 matches, like "this can check it because it takes 1 or 2 moves and hits it back", well, that's not how it works. Talonflame is switched in to revenge kill or sweep late game. This means that its checks are gone or weakened.

>fighting is a heavily balanced tier
is run with many sashes and almost always 1/2 scarfs
... get up Stealth Rocks, destroy sashes. Scarves don't mean anything against priority, either.
Terrakion live a banded BraveBird and can quickly KO with stone edge
Assuming that it is already inside at 100%. It doesn't just switch into Talonflame's brave bird. Also, this forces teams to run Terrakion to have a pitiful chance of checking this Pokemon.

Armaldo takes a Flare Blitz/Brave bird from a talonflame and can ohko with rock blast (0 Atk investment)
Armaldo is usually sent in to spin rocks and then die to a high power attack. Also, who leaves their Talonflame in on an Armaldo? This only counts as a counter when Armaldo is the last Pokemon standing and is vs. Talonflame. This just doesn't work
Sash Galvantula (83.7) can also kill Talonflame with thunder or volt switch after recoil damage
Galvantula is almost always there to set up sticky web, maybe weaken a Pokemon or two and then simply die. It is only a suicide lead. Keeping it as a Talonflame check forces people to conserve it for the late game, again. And Galvantula doesn't exactly threaten anything out to get a chance to set up web, aside from maybe Charizard.

>Grass has options for talonflame. Ferrothorn can come in on a brave bird, and dish out Rocky Helmet/Iron barbs damage and then talonflame would go down on recoil the next turn if it flare blitz' as 2x Rocky Helmet/Iron barbs + 2x Recoil taken
... Have you ever heard of Swords Dance + Roost Talonflame? It exists and your Ferrothorn argument is nullified. Also, again, this means that grass users have to conserve Ferrothorn until Talonflame comes in and is forced to take damage.

Cradily can also come in and deal with talonflame
Another case of 1v1... Cradily can be dealt with earlier to give Talonflame a late game sweep.

 

[all falls down]

I will never understand why everyone suggest flying's core is broken when every single type can beat it without overcentralizing.

Another point
Keldeo is very broken in the meta.

Keldeo is only countered by Psychic(slowbro), Water(Slowbro/Azu/Tentacruel), Grass (Mega Venu), Poison(Mega Venu) and Fairy(Sylveon/Azu/Florges).

That is less than half of the 16 types having definite switch-ins to MLP

Oh and it threatens to sweep at any given moment with the Sub+CM set, giving off enormous defensive and offensive pressure to make you think twice before clicking scarf f-blast, draco, etc. The Sub+CM set also handles soft walls to keldeo.

Now all of the above isn't much of a problem if you run HO except for Sub+CM perhaps. However this blue bastard has a perfectly viable scarf set, with a awesome speed tier it will most likely be outspeeding your pokes and to pokes it can't kill it has the potential of leaving a nasty burn.
Now I use Stall Flying, (#BringBackBigBird) and keldeo is so powerful to the point where I just have to bank on it missing hydro on chari-x
Here is a replay for analysis:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nimbus-monotype-25059
This was the finals of a tour, if he were to land that hydro he could have swapped it and eventually end up picking off every poke I have one by one and just keep doing hit n' runs.

You're missing a lot of Pokemon that can deal with Keldeo

Psychic has Slowbro, Celebi, Latias as solid counters and Latios as a shakier counter
Dragon has Latias, Dragalge as solid counters and Mega Altaria and Latios as shakier counters
Water has Slowbro, Azumarill, Tentacruel as solid counters like you mentioned and shakier counters in Gyarados and Starmie
Flying has Tornadus-T as a solid counter and shakier counters with Mega Altaria and Gyarados
Fairy has the ones you mentioned as solid counters
Grass and Poison have Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss as solid counters
Bug and Fighting are offensive so they rely on checks for Keldeo (Pinsir, Breloom, etc)
Ghost has Jellicent as a solid counter and Trevenant as a shakier counter
Electric has specially defensive Zapdos as a shaky counter, but the entire team checks Keldeo anyways
Ground has physically defensive Gastrodon as a solid counter and a bunch of ways to check it.
Fire has no counters sure, but with sun up Keldeo doesn't become nearly as bad.

This leaves just Steel, Ice, Dark, Rock, and Normal having a really rough time with Keldeo(these are all types weak to fighting anyways..), and they all have ways to put mind game pressure on it and also all of them have ways to check it.

edit: sorry for repeats didnt see that random influx of posts,,

 

[Crazy Horse]

You're missing a lot of Pokemon that can deal with Keldeo

Psychic has Slowbro, Celebi, Latias as solid counters and Latios as a shakier counter
Dragon has Latias, Dragalge as solid counters and Mega Altaria and Latios as shakier counters
Water has Slowbro, Azumarill, Tentacruel as solid counters like you mentioned and shakier counters in Gyarados and Starmie
Flying has Tornadus-T as a solid counter and shakier counters with Mega Altaria and Gyarados
Fairy has the ones you mentioned as solid counters
Grass and Poison have Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss as solid counters
Bug and Fighting are offensive so they rely on checks for Keldeo (Pinsir, Breloom, etc)
Ghost has Jellicent as a solid counter and Trevenant as a shakier counter
Electric has specially defensive Zapdos as a shaky counter, but the entire team checks Keldeo anyways
Ground has physically defensive Gastrodon as a solid counter and a bunch of ways to check it.
Fire has no counters sure, but with sun up Keldeo doesn't become nearly as bad.

This leaves just Steel, Ice, Dark, Rock, and Normal having a really rough time with Keldeo(these are all types weak to fighting anyways..), and they all have ways to put mind game pressure on it and also all of them have ways to check it.

edit: sorry for repeats didnt see that random influx of posts,,

Tornadus-T has no use at all on flying except for that. It doesn't put anything on the table and it's lack of dual type is a big con. Also it is 5% usage, it's not very good in monotype and it shows in its little usage.

Electric does checks it but isn't as offensive as lets say fighting or bug. So being able to check MLP doesn't mean much for elec, all keldeo does is pick off it's teammates. Oh and I can't believe I never brought up LO Keldeo :I

All this being said, I have seen that light. Just wanted to put Keldeo out there and have been enlightened. I do want to re-iterate this though:

Um every team has to be able to deal with Mega Altaria, Breloom, Gallade, ChanseyGon, Excadrill, etc. so that first point is void. Now if you had to overcentralize to deal with it that would be a problem, however, that core isn't difficult to beat. Please, do name a type that can't beat flying's core- I dare you.
Flexibility? Flying is known for being cookie cutter and generic. Flying teams aren't to different from each other and only differ in ways of going about offense but core stays the same. It's an ideally flexible type but in practice not much is viable outside of the norm.

 

[Croven]

Tornadus-T has no use at all on flying except for that. It doesn't put anything on the table and it's lack of dual type is a big con. Also it is 5% usage, it's not very good in monotype and it shows in its little usage.

Don't got much opinion on this entire debate (I personally think Keldeo isn't broken, but that's just my thoughts), but I want to point out that this statement is flat out false. Yes, it has a mono typing. Yes, it has low usage. Neither of these mean that it is completely useless, which is far from what it actually is. AV Torn-T is a great buffer for special attackers such as Keldeo and Landorus, and can help threats like Char Y and Char X pivot in safely, and we all know how monstrous both of these things can be (same with Altaria and Gyarados). LO TornT is a very potent wallbreaker that has next to no safe switch ins, easily able to break down common defensive cores, which is even further enhanced by the fact that Zapdos has recently been banned. I have been using LO TornT lately, and god, it is a huge threat. I have also used AV TornT a bit back in XY, and it was not performing poorly at all. Regenerator + U-Turn + Knock Off is a great combo that can be a wonderful partner for many powerhouses that Flying carries. I would recommend you use it for some time before completely dismissing it as useless simply for having no dual typing and low usage.

And I suggest you keep in mind that usage =/= viability. After all, if you look back a few months ago, Articuno was at the very bottom of the usage list. Nowadays, after ArVaDa- started using it (and since Greninja got Gunk Shot), people have realized that they have overlooked a useful mon that could help their team, despite it having next to no usage previously. Bear this fact in mind, Crazy Horse; I think it would serve you well to understand this.

 

[Crazy Horse]

Don't got much opinion on this entire debate (I personally think Keldeo isn't broken, but that's just my thoughts), but I want to point out that this statement is flat out false. Yes, it has a mono typing. Yes, it has low usage. Neither of these mean that it is completely useless, which is far from what it actually is. AV Torn-T is a great buffer for special attackers such as Keldeo and Landorus, and can help threats like Char Y and Char X pivot in safely, and we all know how monstrous both of these things can be (same with Altaria and Gyarados). LO TornT is a very potent wallbreaker that has next to no safe switch ins, easily able to break down common defensive cores, which is even further enhanced by the fact that Zapdos has recently been banned. I have been using LO TornT lately, and god, it is a huge threat. I have also used AV TornT a bit back in XY, and it was not performing poorly at all. Regenerator + U-Turn + Knock Off is a great combo that can be a wonderful partner for many powerhouses that Flying carries. I would recommend you use it for some time before completely dismissing it as useless simply for having no dual typing and low usage.

And I suggest you keep in mind that usage =/= viability. After all, if you look back a few months ago, Articuno was at the very bottom of the usage list. Nowadays, after ArVaDa- started using it (and since Greninja got Gunk Shot), people have realized that they have overlooked a useful mon that could help their team, despite it having next to no usage previously. Bear this fact in mind, Crazy Horse; I think it would serve you well to understand this.

Except it's outclassed by pokes that do those things. One of it's best perks in OU is beating Lando which isn't a problem for flying. Thundy-T outclasses it in pivoting due to having elec immunity and scarf set. Torn-T as a wallbreaker? Ok flying has wallbreakers like Honchkrow, Thundurus-I, Lando-I, Charizard-Y/X and etc. using Torn-T for that would be a waste of a slot. Oh and since it is my fav of the trio I actually used it the most initially in Gen V and throughout. I still don't like articuno though that crippling 50% :I Torn-T is vastly outclassed outside of the A-Vest set which is really only helpful for Keldeo, I use it a lot in OU and have applied Torn-I and Therian to monotype. I just know their limitations. Usage and viability does have a correlation though I mean hell tiers are decided by this. Articuno has the crippling condition of rocks being away, which I like to be able to afford 3 or so switch-ins w/ rocks up but that's a preference thing. It's rise from here on out will mostly be the result of zapdos's ban.

 

[Freeroamer]

Except it's outclassed by pokes that do those things. One of it's best perks in OU is beating Lando which isn't a problem for flying. Thundy-T outclasses it in pivoting due to having elec immunity and scarf set. Torn-T as a wallbreaker? Ok flying has wallbreakers like Honchkrow, Thundurus-I, Lando-I, Charizard-Y/X and etc. using Torn-T for that would be a waste of a slot. Oh and since it is my fav of the trio I actually used it the most initially in Gen V and throughout. I still don't like articuno though that crippling 50% :I Torn-T is vastly outclassed outside of the A-Vest set which is really only helpful for Keldeo, I use it a lot in OU and have applied Torn-I and Therian to monotype. I just know their limitations. Usage and viability does have a correlation though I mean hell tiers are decided by this. Articuno has the crippling condition of rocks being away, which I like to be able to afford 3 or so switch-ins w/ rocks up but that's a preference thing. It's rise from here on out will mostly be the result of zapdos's ban.

Usage and viability do have a correlation, but only to a certain extent. I mean using the example of tiers, Tyrantrum is RU but I have had many a loss from being on the end of that things Head Smashes, and believe me, if you want something to break current stall, that's what I'd go for. Looking at the other side of the spectrum, Quagsire is on pretty much every stall team in OU, yet currently resides in NU. Usage more shows how splashable a Pokemon is on teams, rather than how accomplished they are in their specific niches, which is one of the most important factors to consider when teambuilding as often the case is you'll fill 5 slots and then in that last slot you'll want something with very specific niches and many a time it could be a lower tier mon. An example of this is how I pretty much always use Amoonguss on my sand teams, cos I need an Azu and Breloom check that isn't reliant on Synthesis.

What are people's feelings on Altaria btw? I just wanted to see some opinions

 

[Death God Anubis]

Usage and viability do have a correlation, but only to a certain extent. I mean using the example of tiers, Tyrantrum is RU but I have had many a loss from being on the end of that things Head Smashes, and believe me, if you want something to break current stall, that's what I'd go for. Looking at the other side of the spectrum, Quagsire is on pretty much every stall team in OU, yet currently resides in NU. Usage more shows how splashable a Pokemon is on teams, rather than how accomplished they are in their specific niches, which is one of the most important factors to consider when teambuilding as often the case is you'll fill 5 slots and then in that last slot you'll want something with very specific niches and many a time it could be a lower tier mon. An example of this is how I pretty much always use Amoonguss on my sand teams, cos I need an Azu and Breloom check that isn't reliant on Synthesis.

What are people's feelings on Altaria btw? I just wanted to see some opinions

I think it at least deserves a write up for Flying. Even if I don't have replays of it putting in work, it is very good. It has a few great sets, and can fill in a few roles.

 

[Monotip]

Um every team has to be able to deal with Mega Altaria, Breloom, Gallade, ChanseyGon, Excadrill, etc. so that first point is void. Now if you had to overcentralize to deal with it that would be a problem, however, that core isn't difficult to beat. Please, do name a type that can't beat flying's core- I dare you.
Flexibility? Flying is known for being cookie cutter and generic. Flying teams aren't to different from each other and only differ in ways of going about offense but core stays the same. It's an ideally flexible type but in practice not much is viable outside of the norm.
tl;dr Flying's core isn't broken if you don't have to overcentralize to beat it and when every monotype can beat it.

Side note
Oh and on keldeo, from the responses what I have garnered is that some believe it's presence is ok, that is fine. It's really how you prefer the metagame. I don't like the thought of doing 50/50s w/ Keldeo and having very little walls across the 16 types. Some find it ok that you would have to do a 2 or 3 point play. I can't argue against that because it is all subjective. Oh and to the guy with the gastro post. all gastro can do after it switches in is recover? if it even attempts to damage keldeo it will die. Every single time you recover you roll that 25% chance of being 2hkod sooooo yeah.

Flying was known for being cookie cutter. ORAS came and the oh so famous generic six that I've read about are no longer the norm. Flying learned to adapt to the new meta, and ran different things. Twave Gyara, for instance, to stop Greninja and non-bolt Genesect. Flying changed. I've seen sixteen of the Pokemon in that sprite gallery utilized very effectively (seventeen if you count Zard's other form, which I've also seen). Taking out skarm/zap, that made for fourteen or fifteen members that had been used to great effectiveness, and four slots to use them. Flexibility with powerful members is something flying just has in spades.

The Skarm/Zap core on its own was not broken, but the wide array of incredibly powerful teammates that built around the core pushed it over the edge. And to be truthful, one of the first questions every good team had to ask was, 'What's my flying plan, and is it good enough?' That is centralizing, in a manner of speaking. Additionally, flying was a staggeringly difficult match up even for types that were supposed to be advantaged against it, rock and electric. Sometimes the ability to beat flying was even put before the ability to beat disadvantages for weaker types.

Furthermore, water has to deal with more than enough from ground as it is. If it has no gyara/rotom then the team falls victim to a constant barrage of highly-powered ground attacks. Even if it does, ground has Gravity. Band Excadrill can 2hko a slowbro when factoring in rocks or sandstorm to beat leftovers. If not leftovers, Slowbro can't swap in at all. In the face of this, I see no reason to complain about Keldeo against Ground, Ground needs to be checked (and I say this knowing its my favorite type). Therefore, I see no reason to complain about Gastro's survival on stealth rock entry being a 75/25 against specs Keldeo.

 

[vanderlylic]

Finally, a new thread will be posted for discussion tomorrow, replacing this one as this thread is rather clunky and I would like to have more control with the next one.

May I just ask, what happened to the new thread being made?

 

[Auburn]

Bulk Up Talonflame Best Talonflame!
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-72143790

 

[Omega-Xis]

Bulk Up Talonflame Best Talonflame!
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-72143790

Look. At that. Please no more CB TFlame calcs ever again Bulk Up TFlame best TFlame.

 

[DoW]

Honestly, the fact that you've got to be prepared for Band, Bulk Up, Swords Dance, and Stallbreaker Talonflame sets all at once is part of what makes Talon broken. That said, even if only the Banded set existed, it'd be broken.

 

[Relaxed Dedenne]

I want to note one thing, Carbink has Doul Screens/Rocks so it does have a decent support set

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

I want to note one thing, Carbink has Doul Screens/Rocks so it does have a decent support set

Thing is, Carbink is 100% outclassed by Diancie, and if you are using Mega Diancie you don't really want to stack 4x Steel weaknesses on types that already have a difficult matchup against Steel. Using something like Clefable or Shuckle for Rocks is usually better.

 

[mullin]

Rofl I didn't even see the Keldeo part, all I'm gonna say is if you want every single person on the ladder to use Ground, then be my guest.

For your point on stall Flying not being able to answer it even tho I think scp made a couple of great points above, is that necessarily a bad thing? If stall was able to answer every single threat it'd be broken as fuck so the fact that there are some threats that do break it largely because you've chosen that play style, then I regard that as a good thing. Balanced Flying might not be able to switch into Keldeo that well, but it at least has safeguards against it, whereas it'll perform worse vs other threats. You have to remember it's healthy for every team to be weak to something, otherwise there'd be one be all and end all team and a load of inferior teams.

My personal views on mono at the moment are that Ground definitely needs a look at, the sheer effectiveness of the cookie cutter Ground that is well known to anyone who's played a decent amount of the ladder is somewhat worrying, and definitely at the forefront of my mind when I consider potential next steps in our tiering.

Another thing that's been concerning me is Mega Altaria's incredible matchup against so many types, particularly when backed up by the common Healing Wish+screens Latias on Dragon teams and in general the sheer amount of options on Flying teams. I've used it a lot myself and found it unsettling how easy it was to set up and absolutely crush teams with little effort, particularly vs lower tier types. Not suggesting anything yet, just what I feel from laddering with and against it.

I agree that we should look at ground but no bans come to mind except Smooth rock sand rush is very annoying to deal with like water with damp rock in the past. If we can isolate this threat I think we can bring some balance back and if this does not work we could look into it more

 

[RedsCharizard]

Given all the discussion about Sand Rush Excadrill, let's take a close look at it.

Base Statistics:
110 / 135 / 60 / 50 / 65 / 88
Typical spread:
Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- Rapid Spin / Swords Dance

This is ground's go-to sweeper. Its moveset is usually the same with some great coverage: so great that there are almost no switch-ins. If it's in the sand, it gets double speed: with an adamant nature, it hits 550 speed. With 7-8 turns of sand, it is able to put some huge dents in most teams before being forced to switch out. How do most types fare against it at the moment? Well...

Normal: Earthquake does 45.4 - 53.4% to phys. def Chansey and 46.7 - 55.3% to sp. def Porygon2, which is the most common spread. If Stealth Rocks are up, these walls are 2HKOed. Staraptor dies to Rock Slide if switched in, so that's no counter, either.
Fighting: Mach Punch users such as Breloom, Infernape and in some cases Conkeldurr force Excadrill to switch out, so it doesn't have much trouble checking it offensively - although it doesn't have anything that can wall it aside from Chesnaught, which is uncommon. Moving on...
Flying: Skarmory, Gliscor and Landorus counter it. However, there's usually only 1 of those on the team - Rock Slide destroys the flying team otherwise.
Poison: 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 152-179 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - 2HKO after rocks and sand damage. If those aren't on the field, then Mega Venusaur can deal damage back and recover HP at the same time with Giga Drain - which it doesn't have to fear using, given the fact that the type is weak to it. Otherwise, poison still has Weezing, which is 3HKOed.
Ground: A bit of a complicated matchup: Basically, one needs to weaken or take out Hippowdon, Gastrodon and Garchomp, who can all take 1 hit and retaliate back with Earthquake. One also needs to win the speed tie with opposing Excadrill.
Rock: Rhyperior. Sort of. Everything else just dies.
Bug: Forretress is all that bug has to wall it, and it has no reliable recovery.
Ghost: Ghost has Sableye with Will-o-Wisp. Cofagrigus is 3HKOed after leftovers Recovery, so it may be able to burn it. That's about everything.
Steel: Has Skarmory and Ferrothorn - both of these can be taken care of by Landorus-I and Nidoking quite easily, giving Excadrill space to destroy everything else on the team.
Fire: It needs to play with Zard Y carefully, putting up sun to cancel out sand. This can't be done easily, due to the fact that Zard Y is frail and easily dispatched by Stealth Rock, if they are up.
Water: Water teams can shred Hippowdon, so it only puts up sand once - then stall it out with a wall such as Slowbro or Alomomola, or use Aqua Jet with Azumarill. Not much it does here...
Grass: Ferrothorn is a defensive check, and Breloom uses Mach Punch to take it out - even so, with team support, these are taken care of.
Electric: Rotom-Wash needs to be kept alive. If it isn't, Excadrill sweeps.
Psychic: Mew, Slowbro, Deoxys-D... Psychic has its walls, so they're pressured to be kept at full health. Psychic has an easier time dealing with Excadrill that other types.
Ice: Absolutely nothing, except hopefully Rocky Helmet Avalugg to wear it down. And Abomasnow to put up Hail, perhaps. That's all I can think of. And even then, not great.
Dragon: Built up of offensive Pokemon, Excadrill 2HKOes everything.
Dark: Mandibuzz walls it (sort of). Crawdaunt forces it out by threatening it with Aqua Jet. That's everything.
Fairy: Azumarill has Aqua Jet... Gardevoir traces Sand Rush and (hopefully) lands a Focus Blast. Nothing else can hope to stand against Excadrill, though.

tl;dr / Final Verdict: Given the fact that Excadrill either sweeps or severely damages nearly every team with very little consequences, 8 turns is simply too much time for it to do so - most teams won't be ready for it when it comes in a 2nd time. That is why Smooth Rock should be at least suspected, if not quick-banned.

 

[DoW]

Given all the discussion about Sand Rush Excadrill, let's take a close look at it.

Base Statistics:
110 / 135 / 60 / 50 / 65 / 88
Typical spread:
Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- Rapid Spin / Swords Dance

This is ground's go-to sweeper. Its moveset is usually the same with some great coverage: so great that there are almost no switch-ins. If it's in the sand, it gets double speed: with an adamant nature, it hits 550 speed. With 7-8 turns of sand, it is able to put some huge dents in most teams before being forced to switch out. How do most types fare against it at the moment? Well...

Normal: Earthquake does 45.4 - 53.4% to phys. def Chansey and 46.7 - 55.3% to sp. def Porygon2, which is the most common spread. If Stealth Rocks are up, these walls are 2HKOed. Staraptor dies to Rock Slide if switched in, so that's no counter, either.
Fighting: Mach Punch users such as Breloom, Infernape and in some cases Conkeldurr force Excadrill to switch out, so it doesn't have much trouble checking it offensively - although it doesn't have anything that can wall it aside from Chesnaught, which is uncommon. Moving on...
Flying: Skarmory, Gliscor and Landorus counter it. However, there's usually only 1 of those on the team - Rock Slide destroys the flying team otherwise.
Poison: 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 195-230 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - that's the closest thing poison has to something that walls it.
Ground: A bit of a complicated matchup: Basically, one needs to weaken or take out Hippowdon, Gastrodon and Garchomp, who can all take 1 hit and retaliate back with Earthquake. One also needs to win the speed tie with opposing Excadrill.
Rock: Rhyperior. Sort of. Everything else just dies.
Bug: Forretress is all that bug has to wall it, and it has no reliable recovery.
Ghost: Ghost has Sableye with Will-o-Wisp. Cofagrigus is 3HKOed after leftovers Recovery, so it may be able to burn it. That's about everything.
Steel: Has Skarmory and Ferrothorn - both of these can be taken care of by Landorus-I and Nidoking quite easily, giving Excadrill space to destroy everything else on the team.
Fire: It needs to play with Zard Y carefully, putting up sun to cancel out sand. This can't be done easily, due to the fact that Zard Y is frail and easily dispatched by Stealth Rock, if they are up.
Water: Water teams can shred Hippowdon, so it only puts up sand once - then stall it out with a wall such as Slowbro or Alomomola, or use Aqua Jet with Azumarill. Not much it does here...
Grass: Ferrothorn is a defensive check, and Breloom uses Mach Punch to take it out - even so, with team support, these are taken care of.
Electric: Rotom-Wash needs to be kept alive. If it isn't, Excadrill sweeps.
Psychic: Mew, Slowbro, Deoxys-D... Psychic has its walls, so they're pressured to be kept at full health. Psychic has an easier time dealing with Excadrill that other types.
Ice: Absolutely nothing, except hopefully Rocky Helmet Avalugg to wear it down. And Abomasnow to put up Hail, perhaps. That's all I can think of. And even then, not great.
Dragon: Built up of offensive Pokemon, Excadrill 2HKOes everything.
Dark: Mandibuzz walls it (sort of). Crawdaunt forces it out by threatening it with Aqua Jet. That's everything.
Fairy: Azumarill has Aqua Jet... Gardevoir traces Sand Rush and (hopefully) lands a Focus Blast. Nothing else can hope to stand against Excadrill, though.

tl;dr / Final Verdict: Given the fact that Excadrill either sweeps or severely damages nearly every team with very little consequences, 8 turns is simply too much time for it to do so - most teams won't be ready for it when it comes in a 2nd time. That is why Smooth Rock should be at least suspected, if not quick-banned.

I'm not entirely confident with all of these assessments. Here's what I'd say:
Normal: While SpD pory2 is most common in OU/UU, Phys def is most common in Mono, and walls Exca. Normal has a counter.
Fighting: Has offensive answers to the threat as you stated, and fighting's not exactly looking for defensive answers. Not a massive problem.
Flying: Almost every team runs one of those counters, so not a problem. It's a threat still, sure, but not gamebreaking here by any means.
Poison: 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 122-146 (36.5 - 43.7%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Assuming no flinch or WoW miss, this is gonna deal with the threat.
Rock: While M-Aggron is 3HKO'd, it can't KO back or recover up enough to wall it, and most rock teams run M-Diancie anyway. Shuckle's KO'd by eq followed by iron head, and the best Rock can do back is hope gastro's gone by the time it comes in, fodder something off, then send in sash omastar to set up while gaining a weak armor boost at the same time, which could quite possible sweep the ground team. But as has been said, that's far from the perfect plan. Rock struggles here.
Bug: Again it's a struggle, though Forre can be annoying for it. Technically fully defensive M-Scizor counters, however it's not exactly an amazing way to use your mega for bug. Instead they'll prefer to revenge kill with Heracross or something. A tough matchup, though winnable.
Ghost: There's the things you mentioned, plus Spiritomb can take two hits and hurt it back with Foul Play (which KOs with the two rounds of LO). So, technically can counter but struggles to play around it.
Steel: Sure, exca has partners to take care of the counters, but at this point it's about who's playing better. Steel has counters, so exca's not a problem in this matchup.
Fire: Yeah, Zard Y is a 50/50 (well, not quite - I remember losing a game to Lucina09 where I went for rock slide as Zard Y came in, only for it to miss), but at this point it's down to skill for whether you can beat exca, so while it's a problem it's beatable.
Water: Yep, no threats here.
Grass: At this point it's relying on team support to sweep, which is more "standard pokemon" than "overwhelming threat". If you're really struggling with the mon you can run max def celebi to beat it or something but honestly it's not that big a threat.
Electric: While Rotom-W might be somewhat easy to wear down, it's a counter nonetheless.
Psychic: Slowbro is enough on its own TBH. While a whole load of mons can wall exca, Slowbro can more easily keep healthy enough to counter due to regen. In any case, not that big a threat.
Ice: Yeah, this is always gonna be an uphill battle. That said, Walrein takes the hits pretty well. But yeah, this one's not exactly the easiest of games.
Dragon: TBH TankChomp doesn't get enough love in mono. Other than that, you're gonna have to play around it, but that's not to say you can't beat it. Dragon's a strong enough team built of offensive mons that TBH I don't feel this is that bad a matchup still.
Dark: Again there's sab although that doesn't want to switch in, and there's Spiritomb which nobody uses ever on dark but w/e. But yeah ignoring hax Mandi walls, which is good enough for me.
Fairy: Yeah, this is a tough one. Banded Azu is a counter, but it's not exactly gonna want to switch in a whole bunch of times. Other than that you've got to play around it, e.g. with garde as you said. A tough matchup, but they can counter still.

tl;dr Types that struggle to win: Rock, Bug, Ghost, Ice, Fairy. You may disagree with these assesments, but I don't think any types other than Rock and Ice are outright lost causes, and even these have something in their favour. But a large number of types can deal with the problem. Not gonna say whether it needs to be dealt with or not, just my thoughts.

 

[n64lord]

LO bisharp will cause excadrill to only get two attacks off due to excadrill's LO (steel teams can hope to OHKO if they run spikes on ferrothron/skarmory)

In the march stat page ground vs ghost actually went from ghost's second worst matchup to number 1 over dark.
Frankly checking with sableye is unviable for a generic ghost team, because garcomp (and sometimes mamoswine) will also have coverage and just enough bulk to make them fatal to the other 5 members of the team. Sableye can only check one of these if they take the trade, and the ground user also has the option of switching into lando-I. In short, they win if they take the trade, and they win if they don't take it. I know it's hypocritical from me with my gourgeist super, but this is normally an awful matchup.

The way dark and dragon teams are normally played doesn't really let excadrill do any damage to team members that are needed to win the match. Changes to sand duration would not improve the (bad) matchup for either of them with pokemon like landorus and mamoswine pulling the weight.

shoutouts to stun spore whimsicott for both grass and fairy. I'd had teams from both ends that only needed this support to win vs ground, and shockingly few people decided to avoid the status (fear of sub seed so strong)

 

[urkerab]

Poison: 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 195-230 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - that's the closest thing poison has to something that walls it.

Poison almost always uses Venusaurite, although I think you still get to 3HKO after Sandstorm damage and Giga Drain recovery (without Sand you're only getting 4HKO but Venusaur-Mega is 3HKOing you with Giga Drain).

 

[RedsCharizard]

Poison almost always uses Venusaurite, although I think you still get to 3HKO after Sandstorm damage and Giga Drain recovery (without Sand you're only getting 4HKO but Venusaur-Mega is 3HKOing you with Giga Drain).

Sorry about that - I was sure I put Mega Venusaur into the calculator. That's fixed now.

 

[Freeroamer]

Just wanted to point out the actual calc:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 149-177 (40.9 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage

The thing is, a lot of the answers that have been mentioned are good answers, but due to Ground's heavy physical offense style, will often get overwhelmed before Exca comes in. Take the mention of Weezing for example, you could keep it just for Exca but then the rest of your team is going to get peppered with EQ's from the likes of Mamoswine and Garchomp, by which point Exca won't even need to sweep because your team will be in pieces. I think to assume that Ground is so good just because of Excadrill is being ignorant of the whole team structure. The team is literally built to pressure Excadrill's checks to the point where they can no longer check it. This is why Slowbro and Skarmory are so annoying for Ground, Slowbro in particular because it's extremely difficult to pressure it and wear it down into the range of the 40% you need it to be at so Exca can sweep. A well played Skarmory can achieve the same, unless it's up against the Gravity Landorus which has become popular to allow Exca to spam banded EQ's with little risk. I can honestly tell you from personal experience that checks like Weezing and Garchomp, who have no recovery and are pretty easy to wear down have never really stopped Exca from sweeping in my team.

 

[DoW]

Just wanted to point out the actual calc:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 149-177 (40.9 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage

The thing is, a lot of the answers that have been mentioned are good answers, but due to Ground's heavy physical offense style, will often get overwhelmed before Exca comes in. Take the mention of Weezing for example, you could keep it just for Exca but then the rest of your team is going to get peppered with EQ's from the likes of Mamoswine and Garchomp, by which point Exca won't even need to sweep because your team will be in pieces. I think to assume that Ground is so good just because of Excadrill is being ignorant of the whole team structure. The team is literally built to pressure Excadrill's checks to the point where they can no longer check it. This is why Slowbro and Skarmory are so annoying for Ground, Slowbro in particular because it's extremely difficult to pressure it and wear it down into the range of the 40% you need it to be at so Exca can sweep. A well played Skarmory can achieve the same, unless it's up against the Gravity Landorus which has become popular to allow Exca to spam banded EQ's with little risk. I can honestly tell you from personal experience that checks like Weezing and Garchomp, who have no recovery and are pretty easy to wear down have never really stopped Exca from sweeping in my team.

I agree entirely. I think however that exca itself has been shown (at least against the vast majority of types) not to be broken, so something along the lines of a smooth rock ban, or smooth rock on ground ban, would perhaps be a good way to deal with its overcentralisation.

 

[Dece1t]

Hey I'm aware there is a lot of talk about Smooth Rock getting suspected/banned, primarily for the sake of hindering Excadrill a bit, but I thought I'd pop and and give my 2 take on the situation.

So the main probable reason behind this is like for a lot of the same reasons there were type bans placed in the first place: Makes the type overpowering overall to the metagame, and noobs can use the generic cores and actually beat some of the biggest pro's around without luck. In Excadrills case, I do agree someone can pick up a Hippo and Exca, and proceed to wreck, however this is to an extent. It isn't like it cannot be walled at all, frankly it can get walled, I'll post a couple examples real quick just to prove my point:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 86-101 (28.3 - 33.3%) -- 95.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 69-82 (20.6 - 24.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 87-103 (24.5 - 29%) -- possible 6HKO after Poison Heal

Granted this is only a few, but I think that does get the point across that it can definatley be walled. However I do believe some types, such as Ice (ik it's weak to everything, but again just for an example), it's pretty much unstoppable, similar to the old Talonflame situation. The way I look at it, it's pretty much considered one of the fastest pokemon in the metagame right now, and with a very deadly attack stat thanks to life orb/choice band, it now can have the ability to smack walls such as Ferrothorn, pretty hard on switch in. So in some cases, it can be considered a wallbreaker. You have to remember as well, it's not like someone is gonna start with Excadrill, and just go right for the sweep, in most cases if the person is smart, they'll try and save for once the opponent's walls are down, and it can clean up late game. So usually, there will be a lot of coring around it to ensure it can be sent in safely, and it has the proper team mates to handle these threats/major walls. Do I think there should be a buff to Excadrill? Maybe, however, there's also the point in considering to ban a major member of the core of a Ground team, i.e. Flying's Zapdos ban. Where I'm trying to go here is, the generic ground team usually consists of: Hippo, Gastro, Mega Chomp, Lando-I, Mamoswine, and of course, Excadrill. Chomp and Lando are the main wallbreakers, while Hippo and gastro are the defensive core. Mamo is good coverage against grass, ice, and flying, as well as chip on some weaker threats/anything 4x weak to ice shard, with exca being the late game sweeper. Where I'm trying to go is, why not maybe ban one of the pokes who play a major role in paving the way for Excadrill? It's definatley a different philosophy of thinking, and I think maybe it should be talked about. For example, Ban Landorus I, who right now already pretty much wrecks a lot of the meta game, so Ground would need to resort to a better special sweeper, and if it happens to be Mega Camel, Chomp will be used a lot less for wallbreaking, and now they'd need to find a new wallbreaker, and ect. Excadrill in itself, if its banned from Ground, things are definatley gonna take a hit in the gut, and Grass, Ice, Water (Biggest 1 on this list), Fire, Electric, Psychic, Fairy, and Dragon will definatley become much harder matchups, and Ground would become a bit lower tiered on usage, because it would be weak to a lot more teams.

In simple terms, I don't think it is Excadrill so much that is the problem, I think it's the strategy and the team members behind it that make it a lot easier to use. So my opinion would be, hold off on Smooth Rock Suspect. I hope this helps any to the current discussion.

 

[all falls down]

Hey I'm aware there is a lot of talk about Smooth Rock getting suspected/banned, primarily for the sake of hindering Excadrill a bit, but I thought I'd pop and and give my 2 take on the situation.

So the main probable reason behind this is like for a lot of the same reasons there were type bans placed in the first place: Makes the type overpowering overall to the metagame, and noobs can use the generic cores and actually beat some of the biggest pro's around without luck. In Excadrills case, I do agree someone can pick up a Hippo and Exca, and proceed to wreck, however this is to an extent. It isn't like it cannot be walled at all, frankly it can get walled, I'll post a couple examples real quick just to prove my point:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 86-101 (28.3 - 33.3%) -- 95.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 69-82 (20.6 - 24.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 87-103 (24.5 - 29%) -- possible 6HKO after Poison Heal

Granted this is only a few, but I think that does get the point across that it can definatley be walled. However I do believe some types, such as Ice (ik it's weak to everything, but again just for an example), it's pretty much unstoppable, similar to the old Talonflame situation. The way I look at it, it's pretty much considered one of the fastest pokemon in the metagame right now, and with a very deadly attack stat thanks to life orb/choice band, it now can have the ability to smack walls such as Ferrothorn, pretty hard on switch in. So in some cases, it can be considered a wallbreaker. You have to remember as well, it's not like someone is gonna start with Excadrill, and just go right for the sweep, in most cases if the person is smart, they'll try and save for once the opponent's walls are down, and it can clean up late game. So usually, there will be a lot of coring around it to ensure it can be sent in safely, and it has the proper team mates to handle these threats/major walls. Do I think there should be a buff to Excadrill? Maybe, however, there's also the point in considering to ban a major member of the core of a Ground team, i.e. Flying's Zapdos ban. Where I'm trying to go here is, the generic ground team usually consists of: Hippo, Gastro, Mega Chomp, Lando-I, Mamoswine, and of course, Excadrill. Chomp and Lando are the main wallbreakers, while Hippo and gastro are the defensive core. Mamo is good coverage against grass, ice, and flying, as well as chip on some weaker threats/anything 4x weak to ice shard, with exca being the late game sweeper. Where I'm trying to go is, why not maybe ban one of the pokes who play a major role in paving the way for Excadrill? It's definatley a different philosophy of thinking, and I think maybe it should be talked about. For example, Ban Landorus I, who right now already pretty much wrecks a lot of the meta game, so Ground would need to resort to a better special sweeper, and if it happens to be Mega Camel, Chomp will be used a lot less for wallbreaking, and now they'd need to find a new wallbreaker, and ect. Excadrill in itself, if its banned from Ground, things are definatley gonna take a hit in the gut, and Grass, Ice, Water (Biggest 1 on this list), Fire, Electric, Psychic, Fairy, and Dragon will definatley become much harder matchups, and Ground would become a bit lower tiered on usage, because it would be weak to a lot more teams.

In simple terms, I don't think it is Excadrill so much that is the problem, I think it's the strategy and the team members behind it that make it a lot easier to use. So my opinion would be, hold off on Smooth Rock Suspect. I hope this helps any to the current discussion.

First of all, your calcs don't seem to help your argument much:

• Rotom has no reliable recovery, and is mostly used on Electric teams. This leaves one check to Excadrill, while your entire team is already weak to EdgeQuake and will inevitably have Excadrill weaken Rotom. With so much pressure to want to switch in Rotom in on everything (and you will need to switch it on on some things like Mamoswine), realistically it will never be at full HP and with constant hazard damage, it is very easy to weaken it for Exacdrill to kill it. It doesn't help that Gastrodon completely walls Rotom either.
• One of Ground's main goals is to kill Skarmory. It has so many ways to pressure it, from Fire Blast Garchomp, Gravity (doesn't even need to be gravity) Landorus, Gastrodon, Mamoswine flinches, Stealth Rock, and sometimes even Nidoking or Rock Slide flinches. With all this pressure, and Skarmory being the only Pokemon to switch in to the likes of Mamoswine and Excadrill, it can be easy to crack your opponent because they will be forced to make safe switches into Skamory, and one slip up can spell doom for the Flying team.

I think the point that I'm getting at here is that while (very few) types do have counters to Excadrill, the sheer amount of pressure that Ground is able to put on teams through Hazards, Sandstorm damage, and two of the best wallbreakers in the entire OU and Monotype tiers (in Landorus and Excadrill), this minuscule amount of counters are easily worn down; once they are gone, Excadrill has free reign to sweep the rest of the team. Like DM said, Ground teams are almost built to clear the team for Excadrill; they all have Earthquake + Flying coverage move (Stone Edge or Icicle Crash/Shard) and this effectively gives the same checks and counters as Excadrill, letting them help each other.

As for your argument that something else should be the thing to go, Landorus is the only thing that would come to mind like you said. It is indeed an insane wallbreaker and I could think of a couple reasons to get it banned as well. However the real problem is that Excadrill's 8 turns of rampage just leave some types helpless--they can't even edit their teams to help it. Landorus compliments Excadrill perfectly, but it isn't needed for Excadrill to sweep. Banning Landorus would just be avoiding the problem.

Aside from Landorus and Smooth Stone, quite literally nothing would deserve getting banned, so not sure what you mean there.

In simple terms, I don't think it is Excadrill so much that is the problem, I think it's the strategy and the team members behind it that make it a lot easier to use.

That's precisely why we aren't discussing banning Excadrill itself, but rather Smooth Stone (which is literally the "strategy and team members that make it easier to use" like you say) Without Excadrill Ground is still an amazing type (and perhaps still even too powerful), but 5 turns of Sand is much more manageable. The reason Zapdos was banned was because there was no one Pokemon that made sense to target to ban, aside from Charizard X; and banning Charizard X wouldn't even hurt it enough. With Ground, it is very easy to target bans. What's too powerful? Excadrill and Landorus. What makes Excadrill so powerful? Hippowdon and Smooth Stone. With this it makes much more sense to target something like Smooth Stone to ban rather than targeting a perfectly normal support Pokemon.

Do I think there should be a buff to Excadrill? Maybe

I sincerely hope you misspoke.