Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

[DoW]

I think to M-Scizor bulky, Chansey with T-Wave, to any scarf with Rock, Fire, ice, flying move to revenge-kill, Mega-Pinsir is too a great Revenge-killer,...

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158148192 Is Shaymin-Sky was invicible? I used and i've been easily beaten by a Steel Team.
I've a good level i think, so, you can see that stop Shaymin-S is possible.
You have just know play, that's all.

Hang on just a minute, bringing Skymin in on ferrothorn then saying it's bad when it doesn't win isn't exactly great playing. Sure grass was going to struggle against steel there, but saying it's bad because it didn't get the three 60% chances it would have needed does not equal a bad pokemon, that's just playing badly. Ferrothorn needs to be weakened before you can send in Skymin, otherwise you're just using it badly.

It's like sending in MegaZard Y against terrakion, and saying it's a bad poke when Stone Edge OHKOs.

 

[Belgian Fírnen]

Hang on just a minute, bringing Skymin in on ferrothorn then saying it's bad when it doesn't win isn't exactly great playing. Sure grass was going to struggle against steel there, but saying it's bad because it didn't get the three 60% chances it would have needed does not equal a bad pokemon, that's just playing badly. Ferrothorn needs to be weakened before you can send in Skymin, otherwise you're just using it badly.

It's like sending in MegaZard Y against terrakion, and saying it's a bad poke when Stone Edge OHKOs.

Steel teams aren't afraid by Shaymin-S, M-Scizor, Scarf Exadrill, Scarf Genesect (at the moment) and Empoleon can easily beat Shaymin-S.

I'm not using Shaymin-S badly, please, i think i know how to use one Pokemon like this...
Shaymin-S is less broken than Kyurem-White who can destroy a lot of teams.


Articuno,please, show me some replays where you're destroy teams with Shaymin-Sky against correct players and i'll listen you.
It's easy too talk without prooves.

 

[Ads20000]

I really like this new Monotype tiering system. This will hopefully make Monotype a far more balanced and enjoyable tier. I fully agree with Naten's previous post saying that bringing down Ubers to certain types and banning some new Pokemon is what needs to be done because it is true, this should balance types better. Kyurem-White has brought a fantastic buff to Ice and Skymin will for Grass too.

The complex bans on Dragon and Steel are much appreciated from me as a Fairy user (I have trouble with Dragon weirdly). Also Mega Mawile isn't too good, as proved in this replay, with things like Gengar around it is just too hard to predict to always succeed (and low accuracy on Play Rough and Fire Fang, although I know I predicted very poorly in that battle) and it is a useful buff for Fairy vs. Steel (due to Fire Fang).

 

[Anttya]

Yo its not about "Walling" Genesect when it can literally escape and punish all those situations or Switch ins with U-turn

Their is a reason shit is Banned man

Ik which is why I put stuff in the aftermatch place. I'm saying that Genesect can easily U-turn out into Mega Pinsir or Heracross who'd easily destroy Genesect's checks / walls

 

[Anttya]

>8 spa on a tbolt genesect

Seeing it in your perspective, you expect the Genesect user to stay into the checks, as AV Azumarill easily gets worn down after 252 SpA Thunderbolts after Stealth Rock: 252 SpA Expert Belt Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 137-163 (39.7 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 137-163 (39.7 - 47.2%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Genesect can punch holes through anything, and Hyper Offensive teams like Ice stand an even worse chance VS Genesect. Mixed Genesect can break through ANYTHING. The things it can't break through are easily handled by its powerful teammates, like 4 Attacks Scizor-Mega checks Chansey and other Bulky Normal-Types that threaten Genesect. With the unbanning of Genesect, we have opened a huge gate for Hyper Offensive Bug to destroy the ladders. Pinsir-Mega, Choice Band Scizor, Galvantula, and Genesect honestly might be too much for this Metagame to handle, and only extremely bulky types stand any chance against Hyper Offensive Bug.

CALCS:

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Staraptor: 130-153 (34.8 - 41%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Staraptor: 194-229 (52 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

There it is, literally the only check to Scizor in Mono Normal. Everything else is literally bopped by a Choice Banded Superpower, and if you really want, you don't even need to use Pinsir-Mega. Also, a new playstyle I foresee is Volt-Turn Bug. Volt Switch Galvantula + Choice Band/Scizorite can easily play by any check thrown at it. But, the only downside is being so weak to Stealth Rock. You'd need a reliable Defogger in Mega Scizor or a Rapid Spinner of choice, preferably Armaldo to give your team even more offensive presence even while you're setting Stealth Rock, so you don't lose that much offensive presence when pivoting into your Rapid Spinner.

Nah, I see it to be a pivot like Assault Vest Azu vs Kyurem-W.But Azumarill could easily Waterfall if Scizor's offensive and they don't carry a Forretress.

 

[Crazy Horse]

and Empoleon can easily beat Shaymin-S.

Ha that's funny.
252 SpA Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 133-157 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- 90.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 265-313 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You have the same chances of countering scarf skymin with empoleon as a stone edge miss. If you gotta bank on 20% chance to "beat" it...

4 SpA Empoleon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-S: 360-424 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Oh and SubSeed Skymin can have some fun with empoleon.

I fully agree with Naten's previous post saying that bringing down Ubers to certain types and banning some new Pokemon is what needs to be done because it is true, this should balance types better.

Um Unbanning pokes doesn't help balance a tier typically. I hate to be the guy that says this, but if we are really going this route can we make an Uber Monotype with all the unbans and a Regular OU Monotype with bans but no unbans for the people who don't feel they should be going against broken pokemon.

I also like how you guys are saying Shaymin-S isn't "very broken" well you are conceding to the fact its broken so how the hell does it balance mono if we're allowing a brokenMon to the tier? Oh and even if that was a real argument seeing how skymin is the first Unanimous Vote Ban in Smogon OU History. I think its Broken Level speaks for itself.

Before in Grass vs Water it would be a pretty competitive matchup as long as the water user had something for Mega Venusaur. Now with Skymin they have to bank on Sap Sipper Azu not getting flinced to death. Seeing how Sap Sipper azu is niche in the first place, if they don't have it they are screwed. There is literally nothing they can do. Even if they come up with some miracle strat Skymin's teammates will handle it without much effort.

vs Ice. Another "Fun" Matchup. If ice isn't packing an ice sharder to force skymin out it can just flinch the entire competition to death. Rotom-F does give it some problems but isn't a fan of taking Seed Flares at -2.

vs Ground. LOL gl with that. This poke makes grass vs ground so one sided its not even funny. Ground already had limited teambuilding as mid-tier monotype but now it has an auto-loss clause in Skymin.

vs Fire. Rotom-H forces Skymin out but is completely walled by Mega Venusaur and Cradily. Even then if its SubSeed Skymin Rotom-H loses. Fire has nothing to stop this monster.

vs Electric. Once again Skymin has no counters and can just run a muck here. Pretty much Seed Flare the entire game or just have fun flinching with SubSeed.

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 133-156 (34.6 - 40.6%) -- 47.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 164-194 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

68 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-S: 222-262 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

What that shows is that zapdos has to get a stone edge miss, then from there be able to hit two Heat Waves along with possible roosts. Skymin chooses its counters depending on its set. It could be lefties offensive, Offensive subseed, LO, Specs, Scarf, Bulky Speed SubSeed. Not only that this thing has Healing Wish just to spit in your face.

vs Steel. While you would think it would be at a slight disadvantage that is not true. If it is SubSeed Skarmory has to win a hax war just to whirlwind it and thats a bout all you can do if its subseed. If it is LO w/ Healing Wish...

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 79-95 (23.6 - 28.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. -2 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 201-238 (60.1 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

just hope you win another hax war.

vs rock. Cradily is the only thing that can hope to stop it and guess what?

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cradily in Sand: 110-133 (29.2 - 35.3%) -- 16.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
from there...

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cradily in Sand: 220-261 (58.5 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

and that is cradily best case scenario(being in sand). Even if shaymin doesn't get Stat Drop first turn.
4 Atk Cradily Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 174-206 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

it gets another chance. Lefties Offensive has no Problem, Sub Seed laughs at cradily as it tries to win hax war. Specs...lol. Scarf, once it gets stat drop its over.

vs Flying even against Flying this thing is uncontested.

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 113-134 (26.7 - 31.6%) -- 50.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 120-142 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Mandibuzz isn't Pulling through.

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 78-94 (20.9 - 25.2%) -- 29.2% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

can get the chance to do this vs Lano and pokes with low HP. but since you can alrdy guess how that turns out I'll just go the route without seed flare.

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 99-118 (26.5 - 31.6%) -- 51% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

togekiss won't be having a fun time :[ Other sets that run right through flying or atleast starts a hax war is: Specs, Scarf, SubSeed

I think I'm going to stop there. Point is Adding broken to bad types doesn't make it balanced it makes it broken. Please stop excusing adding ubers in OU Monotype to give this new falsified and unresearched sense of balance.

Oh and as for genesect.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158098022

it took me a timed 2 minutes and 48 seconds to make the team. I unconsciously made a team that supports Genesect. That guy's answer to genesect was that empoleon and once i realized that I put a huge dent into it. My heatran has 40 speed to outspeed mega mawile so it wasn't a speed tie. Mega Mawile just sat there as a win condition and didn't even need to come in because the rest were enough. After Trapping his Empoleon, OutPlaying heatran, and then confirming his genesect set he loss. This battle shows what genesect does though. It was more of a formulaic battle than a skillful one. My premise of winning was simple as:
P1) Get Up Rocks & sac cobalion
P2) Get Genesect in safely and U-Turn his Heatran's AB and switch to appropiate poke
P3) Confirm Genesect Set
P4) Flamethrower sweep

this was interrupted when he switched empoleon into genesect and then from there all I had to do was trap it.
Mega Mawile provides tremendous team support as a win condition. Like I said though if anyone is Pro-Unban can you please justify allowing these pokes in OU Monotype despite their reasoning of being banned having a magnified effect in Monotype. With this please provide counter arguments to their ban reasons. Adding Broken Pokemon to a metagame makes absolutely no sense and doesn't balance it at all. The only premise to unban something is if that pokemon is broken in the other tier but not Monotype. However that is not the case, the only justification has been "It helps type-x and type-y" Sure at the cost of a balanced metagame. Once again adding UberMons is only logical if it's not broken but even pro Unbans have been saying "it isn't very broken" and it "helps". Good Luck Proving Kyu-W, Shaymin-S, Genesect, Mega Mawile, and Aegislash(I'm mixed about him) isn't broken. I will happily rebuttal you.

 

[Dece1t]

Well, I'll say its nice to have Monotype being an independent meta, although I think some of the unbans right now, are gonna ruin the meta. Genesect has usable speed, a huge movepull for wrecking, and is dangerous when scarfed, there's a reason it was sent to ubers. Kyurem W, that's not a horrible one, but what makes it better from Kyurem B, Kyurem B had a horrible physical movepull, so it was usable in OU. Kyurem w has an amazing special attack, and amazing coverage within its wide movepull, so make it scarf, and it is dangerous to a lot of teams. That's why that thing was uber. Skymin, I have no idea why you even had the balls to unban that. It was unanimously banned to Ubers because of 60% flinch air slashes, its high ass speed, and firing strong seed flares killing a lot in its way. So, nothing else to say there, that thing is the stupidest thing I've seen unbanned thus far. The other thing that's confusing is the fact that some pokemon are banned from certian types, example, aegislash being banned use for steel types. If we end up banning half of everything dual types, you cna imagine things will get confusing, so honetsly, either you ban, or you don't ban, period.

The other thing I have to say. 90% of the people who play monotype, are in Leagues, or are associated with Frost. In most leagues, if you were to challenge them, 8 times out of 10, they're gonna use an OU team. You can imagine for a league challenge, with all the unbans in mono, things will get confusing. I mean yes, unbanning aegislash and mawile again were great moves, but the other stuff, just.....no. If you want my 2 sense on things, keep Mono as close to OU as possible to prevent what i mentioned above. If not, I do have some pokes that would be nice to unban, following the rules of what's going on in mono right now: Talonflame (for fire only) and Mega Lucario (maybe fighting only? idk.) But ya, that is my 2 sense on wtf is going on right now. It's honestly ridiculous AF, shaymin and Kyurem w both are badly wrecking.

 

[diabolic]

http://gyazo.com/fbed34f254241581d89d90f578019282 I can honestly say this is the easiest ladder rank I've gotten. Steel is super super super super broken again, like why is genesect unbanned lol.

 

[Belgian Fírnen]

Ha that's funny.
252 SpA Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 133-157 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- 90.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 265-313 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You have the same chances of countering scarf skymin with empoleon as a stone edge miss. If you gotta bank on 20% chance to "beat" it...

4 SpA Empoleon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-S: 360-424 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Oh and SubSeed Skymin can have some fun with empoleon.

That's funny too:


4 SpA Empoleon Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-S: 360-424 (105.5 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO


If you want show somes calculs, show all calculs...

 

[Croven]

Welp, this isn't that much, but might as well post games of how the new meta is trending. I, as usual, was using Flying, and came across a SubSeed Skymin on the ladder. The user was skilled, at least in my opinion, preserving his Skymin and not letting it die unnecessarily. However, my team was somewhat anti-Grass. Using a Scarf Togekiss (cough Arifeen made me use it cough) can pretty much take on Grass monos singlehandedly. However, if I wasn't using Flying or using a Scarf Toge, it would've been quite difficult to beat this team. Here's just how it's going, not sure how much this will contribute, because Flying >> Grass anyway, especially with a Scarfed Toge. I'll be laddering with a couple other types to see how it's going.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158244219

 

[fail_at_battling]

I think to M-Scizor bulky, Chansey with T-Wave, to any scarf with Rock, Fire, ice, flying move to revenge-kill, Mega-Pinsir is too a great Revenge-killer,...

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158148192
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158159352
Is Shaymin-Sky was invicible? I used and i've been easily beaten by a Steel Team.
I've a good level i think, so, you can see that stop Shaymin-S is possible.
You have just know play, that's all.

Steel doesn't need Genesect to be a great type.

First of all, bringing a shaymin in against a ferrothorn? lol
Second of all, you have only proven my point I made earlier that shaymin-s would only promote matchup-based games (much like talonflame did). Shaymin-s does improve grass, but not to the point that it can compete with top-tier types. However, Shaymin-s can destroy fighting and water teams, and with a little predictions destroy ground teams as well. (Hm, what does this remind me of?) In other words, shaymin-s does not help grass that much with becoming better (as people have brought up so far), but improves the type by creating matchup-based wins. You still have not proved that shaymin-s is not unhealthy for the metagame.

There's another thing I thought of that I wanted to add to this. Keeping in mind that this is monotype, and not OU, pure offensive threats would be more difficult to counter. However, it is true that teams which have a type advantage would have an easier time checking or countering certain threats than other teams. This results in games becoming more matchup-based; while this does have the possibility of balancing types, it would remove some skill factor from games. For example, kyurem-w would become to flying and dragon teams what talonflame was to bug/grass/fighting; shaymin-s would destroy fighting teams and centralize grass v grass, etc. On the other hand, giratina is known as one of the great walls of ubers. It was banned because it could wall some of the most powerful threats in OU; monotype has even fewer options in order to overcome this kind of wall. Only types with powerful super effective STAB attacks would be able to easily overcome it without too much loss (dragon types and dark types). If we want to make games more matchup-based for the sake of balancing types, then I have no arguments. However, I do realize there wouldn't be too much harm if stuff are tested before they are unbanned.

There's yet another thing I wanted to add to my post; not only is shaymin-s uncompetitive by introducing matchup-based games to the meta, but also through pure hax, much like swagger. Unlike togekiss, shaymin-s's air slashes can actually do damage, allowing flinch haxes to be much easier (which is more likely than confusion damage, remember). In addition, seed flare's special defense drop makes shaymin-s incredibly difficult to counter (which for some reason people don't seem to realize).

 

[Croven]

First of all, bringing a shaymin in against a ferrothorn? lol
Second of all, you have only proven my point I made earlier that shaymin-s would only promote matchup-based games (much like talonflame did). Shaymin-s does improve grass, but not to the point that it can compete with top-tier types. However, Shaymin-s can destroy fighting and water teams, and with a little predictions destroy ground teams as well. (Hm, what does this remind me of?) In other words, shaymin-s does not help grass that much with becoming better (as people have brought up so far), but improves the type by creating matchup-based wins. You still have not proved that shaymin-s is not unhealthy for the metagame.


There's yet another thing I wanted to add to my post; not only is shaymin-s uncompetitive by introducing matchup-based games to the meta, but also through pure hax, much like swagger. Unlike togekiss, shaymin-s's air slashes can actually do damage, allowing flinch haxes to be much easier (which is more likely than confusion damage, remember). In addition, seed flare's special defense drop makes shaymin-s incredibly difficult to counter (which for some reason people don't seem to realize).

Pretty much the truth right here. Skymin doesn't make it a better matchup against fire or flying, it's still relatively easy to beat Grass with those types. What it does, is ensure a victory over water, making that more matchup based, and doing close to the same thing with ground. Now grass can easily take down fighting with just one poke. Skymin does not make he game less matchup based and more skill reliant; it does the polar opposite. In my opinion, Skymin has even more reason to be banned here than it did in regular OU, and OU had a 100% ban vote. I think you all can see where I'm going with this.

 

[Crazy Horse]

That's funny too:


4 SpA Empoleon Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-S: 360-424 (105.5 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO


If you want show somes calculs, show all calculs...

Oh I see you missed the calc vs BulkySpeed SubSeed Shaymin. Ice beam doesn't OHKO it. Its fairly obvious it would OHKO the rest of the sets. Instead of trying to find some shade in my post how about you tackle the other points i brought up :)

 

[Eminegg]

Genesect is overpowered! :(

It's like an Infernape but on STEROIDS (Download) along with better all-round mixed stats AS WELL (120/120 as compared to 104/104) and with a really good movepool including ExtremeSpeed which means that a Choiced set pretty much can ruin your day because of 1.) being really fast/powerful and 2.) the option to switch itself in on a Knock Off if needs a wider coverage than Speed or power.

True, Fire destroys it, but Scarf variants can always get away with huge chunks of damage to weaken the other team and give you more ease to deal with it.

If anyone wants more solid proof, or has counter-arguments related to this you can encourage me to prove my point better with perhaps a larger post, so please don't bitch!

E: oh, and neutral opponents? Bye-bye! :)

 

[Belgian Fírnen]

First of all, bringing a shaymin in against a ferrothorn? lol
Second of all, you have only proven my point I made earlier that shaymin-s would only promote matchup-based games (much like talonflame did). Shaymin-s does improve grass, but not to the point that it can compete with top-tier types. However, Shaymin-s can destroy fighting and water teams, and with a little predictions destroy ground teams as well. (Hm, what does this remind me of?) In other words, shaymin-s does not help grass that much with becoming better (as people have brought up so far), but improves the type by creating matchup-based wins. You still have not proved that shaymin-s is not unhealthy for the metagame.

Shaymin-Sky would destroy water and fighting teams?

Grass destroys already these types, water, i hadn't to explain and fighting, Treerevenant, Célébi, Gourgeist, Mega-Venu, Whimsicott are perfect to destroy Fighting, so, it's not a proof that with Shaymin-Sky, grass destroy ,thanks to him, fighting and water teams, it was already the case before.
For ground, Grass is the best counter, with and without Shaymin-Sky, i'm a ground user, i know well weaknesses of ground. And, for ground, you can destroy Shaymin-Sky with somes solutions: Mamo, Excadrill Sand Rush, Nidoking Scarf, Landorus-T Scarf and with stealth Rock, your Shaymin-Sky, like i said, won't resist a lot of time.

So, you still have not proved that Shaymin-Sky is unhealthy for the metagame.

 

[DoW]

Shaymin-Sky would destroy water and fighting teams?

Grass destroys already these types, water, i hadn't to explain and fighting, Treerevenant, Célébi, Gourgeist, Mega-Venu, Whimsicott are perfect to destroy Fighting, so, it's not a proof that with Shaymin-Sky, grass destroy ,thanks to him, fighting and water teams, it was already the case before.
For ground, Grass is the best counter, with and without Shaymin-Sky, i'm a ground user, i know well weaknesses of ground. And, for ground, you can destroy Shaymin-Sky with somes solutions: Mamo, Excadrill Sand Rush, Nidoking Scarf, Landorus-T Scarf and with stealth Rock, your Shaymin-Sky, like i said, won't resist a lot of time.

So, you still have not proved that Shaymin-Sky is unhealthy for the metagame.

I'm sorry what?
Saying that water auto-loses to non-Skymin grass is just silly. Considering how bulky water can be, along with multiple ways to hurt venusaur and the majority of their pokemon carrying ice moves as coverage, I'd say that without skymin bulky water does at least neutrally against grass, if not better than that. After all, water is a top-tier threat with a very large number of pokemon to choose from, whereas grass is somewhat restricted and water is more than capable of revenge killing their few good attackers or dealing masses of damage to their walls if they choose to switch out.

However with Skymin around bulky water is almost forced to resort to the sap sipper azu + empoleon combination, which is pretty bad outside of simply countering air slash + seed flare spam, and certainly water doesn't need the grass immunity outside of seed flare. Its normal revenge killers don't work, with keldeo and greninja being outsped and destroyed by skymin and scarf varients potentially being locked into and ice move only for venu to come in. And as shown expertly by Sae Sae here, even that combination is by no means certain to win despite having used two pokemon specifically to try and counter it. I mean, if you're using two of your pokemon specifically to try and counter one certain threat, and they don't even do that 100% of the time, that's bad.
The replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oumonotype-158071451

As has been said before, Skymin makes grass more powerful but makes the metagame far less competitive, as suddenly it's extremely matchup-based. Whereas in the OMPL for example, OU monotype was a best of one because of it being reasonably fair (and I didn't feel I had a massive advantage when my flying played against a fighting team), now it would have to be a best-of-three much like the 1v1 was, due to it being far more matchup-based (and thus far less to do with skill and far more to do with luck of the draw).

 

[Belgian Fírnen]

Water loses 90-95% against a good grass user, that's the truth.
I'm aggree with you about Water, it's a top tiers and have a good coverage but like every types, it isn't impossible to win everytimes...
I know Sae, he's a good water user, but don't forget he has built him team for old meta, so, without Shaymin-Sky, it's "normal" he has lost against your Grass team because he didn't build him team having though to Shaymin-Sky.
You can deny this.
Oh and you can ask to Sae (if you don't believe me), i've faced him with a grass team without Shaymin-Sky one time against the same team Majulous played.
I've won 6-1... I've no replay just a pastebin who shows it and Sae.
So " bulky water does at least neutrally against grass, if not better than that." is completely false.
Grass stays better than Water, that's all.

Shaymin-Sky makes Grass more powerfull but not like Kyurem-White with Ice, it isn't Shaymin-Sky against one team.
I've lost against Fighting team at the moment where i'm writting this comment, because my opponent has made a good switch,...

I wait others cases that them you've explain who are completely false. (Grass wins everytime against Water, Fighting now,...).

 

[SketchUp]

Played a lot monotype past few days and I was surprised that I didn't face many grass monotypes. I faced a lot of steel (genesect) and fire (counter grass and steel) and other types I faced often were water, flying and grass. I don't know how it is higher at the ladder, because I didn't went above 1480s after the unbans. Played with a lot different teams and I can say that Genesect and Shaymin-Sky both do great things, but because of many checks/counters, I can't use them like in for example ubers or other metagames. A few days ago I was not sure about it but now I'm sure that Genesect and Shaymin-Sky both need to be banned again. Other unbans like Aegislash in ghost type and Deoxys in psychic type doesn't seem to have a big impact on the game and I don't think they need to be rebanned.

 

[megacrazyhand]

I have played a little bit of monotype the past day or so (I've been pretty busy so I've mostly been watching battles) and I've been using a bug mono with Expert belt and Sticky Web support. Of course this is matchup based of course, the sticky web being required to add confusion to the set as it becomes harder to figure out if I am or am not scarfed and expert belt to provide just a little more damage on super effective hits (its what I ran when it was allowed in OU). Against a team like a flying mono, the sticky web means nothing but against any team with grounded offense, you get the ability to bluff scarfed U-turns. Anyways most of what I saw with Genesect has been mostly covered, its also important to note that it makes the opponent play safely. Where as in OU the most viable "counter" to Genesect is Heatran, in Mono only two types of teams can run it meaning that your team likely has no preexisting counter (or may not have a counter at all). Add to it that you do have the possibility of having Douse Drive Techno Blast which has perfect accuracy, ten more power then Hydro Pump and can be coupled with Shift Gear, Rock Polish or Extremespeed to compensate for the lack of a scarf and you have what is possibly the most game breaking Pokemon I have ever tested (it will be noted here I haven't tested Skymin, but from the battles I've watched it looks like it can get some pretty nast hax and force the use of some very niche counters like AV sap sipper Azu and certainly is far from healthy for the meta).

 

[fail_at_battling]

Shaymin-Sky would destroy water and fighting teams?

Grass destroys already these types, water, i hadn't to explain and fighting, Treerevenant, Célébi, Gourgeist, Mega-Venu, Whimsicott are perfect to destroy Fighting, so, it's not a proof that with Shaymin-Sky, grass destroy ,thanks to him, fighting and water teams, it was already the case before.
For ground, Grass is the best counter, with and without Shaymin-Sky, i'm a ground user, i know well weaknesses of ground. And, for ground, you can destroy Shaymin-Sky with somes solutions: Mamo, Excadrill Sand Rush, Nidoking Scarf, Landorus-T Scarf and with stealth Rock, your Shaymin-Sky, like i said, won't resist a lot of time.

So, you still have not proved that Shaymin-Sky is unhealthy for the metagame.

I am just following the talonflame precedent. Using your logic, talonflame should not have been banned, since flying and fire destroys grass and bug anyways, and since flying destroys fighting anyways. Just because a type has the advantage, it is not an auto-win. Basically, what I am saying is that shaymin-s is similar to talonflame. It actually was possibly for bug, flying, and grass to defeat talonflame before. Similarly, it is possibly for water, fighting, and ground to beat shaymin-s. However, shaymin-s makes the matchups excessively lopsided. With your ground example, it helps that ground just happens to have what is perhaps one of the best checks in the game to shaymin-s. However, nothing you have mentioned can switch into skymin, other than excadrill. Also, if you have to dedicate four team slots and pile on scarves in order to check shaymin-s enough, something is wrong. You still have not proven how shaymin-s is different than talonflame.

In addition, this problem extends beyond just types. Due to the effects of seed flare and air slash (seed flare especially), shaymin-s makes stall rather unviable. This in turn forces teams to shift more towards hyper offense, damaging the diversity of teams within types. (Basically, each team of each type starts to look even more the exact same, with the lack of team options as a contributing factor.)

So far, my arguments are as follows, in case you want to counter them all:

• Shaymin-s only makes grass better by introducing matchup-based games (the reason talonflame was banned)
• Shaymin-s is uncompetitive due to its ability and air slash, much like swagger
• Shaymin-s is difficult to counter at all thanks to its ability, seed flare, and speed
• Shaymin-s harms the diversity of team composition.

 

[Crazy Horse]

Water loses 90-95% against a good grass user, that's the truth.
I'm aggree with you about Water, it's a top tiers and have a good coverage but like every types, it isn't impossible to win everytimes...
I know Sae, he's a good water user, but don't forget he has built him team for old meta, so, without Shaymin-Sky, it's "normal" he has lost against your Grass team because he didn't build him team having though to Shaymin-Sky.
You can deny this.
Oh and you can ask to Sae (if you don't believe me), i've faced him with a grass team without Shaymin-Sky one time against the same team Majulous played.
I've won 6-1... I've no replay just a pastebin who shows it and Sae.
So " bulky water does at least neutrally against grass, if not better than that." is completely false.
Grass stays better than Water, that's all.

Shaymin-Sky makes Grass more powerfull but not like Kyurem-White with Ice, it isn't Shaymin-Sky against one team.
I've lost against Fighting team at the moment where i'm writting this comment, because my opponent has made a good switch,...

I wait others cases that them you've explain who are completely false. (Grass wins everytime against Water, Fighting now,...).

I'm sorry where are you getting those numbers from? From water users I know and my experience on both frost and main Water vs Grass has always been neutral or better for water so long as they had a reliable mega venusaur killer. Since some bulky water users started implementing sap sipper azu they can't just spam grass moves either. Using one match as a basis is erroneous and not a real representative of hte truth.

 

[inscribe]

I'm sorry where are you getting those numbers from? From water users I know and my experience on both frost and main Water vs Grass has always been neutral or better for water so long as they had a reliable mega venusaur killer. Since some bulky water users started implementing sap sipper azu they can't just spam grass moves either. Using one match as a basis is erroneous and not a real representative of hte truth.

'Reliable Mega Venusaur Killer'

There's not really anything like that unless you wanna run Assault Vest Slowking, since Tentacruel honestly gets easily worn down by hazards if it continuously switches into Sludge Bombs and other moves. Anyways, I agree with Belgian Fírnen . Water was and is pretty easy to defeat with Grass even before the Shaymin-Sky unban.

+

+

Ultimately, your Sap Sipper Azumarill + Assault Vest Slowking + Tentacruel core is going to get worn down by hazards, due to Azumarill and Tentacruel not having reliable recovery. Of course, there's another three Pokemon to worry about, and they probably can absolutely destroy a Grass Team if you can somehow preserve Azumarill, but honestly, if the Grass User plays smart, he wouldn't just spam Grass moves like willy-nilly. All in all, this core can destroy a Grass Mono, but it's pretty counter-teamy, honestly. If you build a Water monotype just around defeating Grass Monotypes, you won't get very far. Any Hyper Offensive typing, like Fighting, or even Fire, can break through this core. Of course Azumarill poses a bit of a threat to both of them, but honestly, Azumarill doesn't enjoy switching in on a Breloom's Rock Tomb, or a Charizard-Y's Sun boosted Fire Blasts or Air Slashes. I still like this core a bit, and I think I'm going to make a team around it.

 

[S. Court]

Mmm just a dumb question, did you consider unban Zekrom for mono-electric? and if you did but he's still banned, which were the reasons to keep his ban in OU Monotype?

 

[Anttya]

Mmm just a dumb question, did you consider unban Zekrom for mono-electric? and if you did but he's still banned, which were the reasons to keep his ban in OU Monotype?

I wrote why Zekrom shouldn't be unbanned here

Nononono no mega Saur means RIP Grass. Even though it screws Electric, you can always find a way around it (Psychic, Sky Drop etc as you said). Chansey and Porygon2 are troublesome and they could get suspected but I really doubt it.
The reasons why Zekrom shouldn't be allowed is because it's not weak to Rocks (Unlike Kyurem-W), it isn't weak to Mach Punch and all of those other common priority moves (Bar Ice Shard). Also Zekrom has 100/120/100 defenses which could let it be a defensive mon or a Banded monster with its 150/120/90 attacking stats. You could argue that you could always switch in stuff like Mega Saur then abuse the fuck out of it, but no, it gets moves like Volt Switch which lets it gain momentum against threats like Ferrothorn. It also gets reliable recovery in the name of Roost, so it can run a bulkier sweeper set with Hone Claws and Roost. I can go on and on, but it's obvious that Zekrom would absolutely annihilate Monotype.

 

[inscribe]

Mmm just a dumb question, did you consider unban Zekrom for mono-electric? and if you did but he's still banned, which were the reasons to keep his ban in OU Monotype?

Zekrom is honestly a really strong Pokemon, and in the state the Metagame is in now, it would promote more diversity, and honestly, I'm kinda underwhelmed with how Skymin and Kyurem-White are performing. With how these two are performing, I wouldn't really mind a Zekrom unban, to see how it'll fair in the current Metagame.