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Muk (QC 3/3) (GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by lars, Jan 30, 2012.

  1. lars

    lars

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    [​IMG]

    [Overview]

    <p>When looking for a defensive Poison-type in RU, Weezing is often the first choice and Muk is overlooked. However, Muk has many desirable defensive—and even offensive—traits that allow him to compete just as effectively. He boasts a base HP stat 50 points higher, a base 100 Special Defense, and the wonderful ability Sticky Hold over Weezing. With resistances to common Grass-, Bug-, and Fighting-type moves, Muk can effectively wall many different attackers in RU while retaining the ability to deal massive amounts of damage thanks to his oft-forgotten base 105 Attack. His extensive movepool also allows for several viable sets, and he can serve as a consistent Toxic Spikes absorber. Unfortunately, all is not roses when you smell as bad as Muk; his weakness to Psychic-type moves and the common Ground-type attacks can make tanking difficult, and despite his good Attack stat, there are many Pokemon that can wall him due to his terrible Poison-type STAB. His Speed isn't helping his sweeping potential either. Play him right and his strengths greatly overshadow his flaws. Give Muk a chance and some support; he can certainly carry his weight.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Gunk Shot / Poison Jab
    move 2: Focus Punch / Fire Punch
    move 3: Ice Punch
    move 4: Shadow Sneak
    item: Choice Band
    ability: Sticky Hold
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Perhaps surprisingly, this might be Muk's best set for RU; it is also the easiest to use. Wait until any Steel- and Ground-types have been removed, and then pound your opponent into the ground with STAB Gunk Shots. Muk's natural bulk lets him take a hit and retaliate, making his poor Speed less of an issue. Poison Jab has better accuracy but disappointing power for a Choice Band-boosted attack. The other moves work well for general coverage. Fire Punch can be used if your team has problems with Scolipede and Ferroseed, while Focus Punch is notable as Muk's biggest answer to his counters. Steel-types expecting a Gunk Shot are obvious switch-ins, so when Steelix takes 56.6–66.7% and standard defensive Aggron, Magneton, and Kabutops are all OHKOed, the appeal of Focus Punch is obvious. Finally, Muk also packs emergency priority in Shadow Sneak, which lets him pick off the last bit of HP on a threatening sweeper.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>252 HP EVs give Muk the best mixed bulk and 252 Attack EVs provide the much-needed power. Other EV spreads are usually not as useful, but if a little investment can stop the OHKO or 2HKO from a particular threat, feel free to take some EVs from Attack. Dry Focus Punches are almost taboo and a little tricky to pull off consistently, so Brick Break can be used to hit Kabutops and Omastar harder than Fire Punch would. Even with the huge nerf, Explosion does respectable damage on this set, and it can help a frail sweeper get a free switch-in. Stench can be used for the rare but useful flinch on Steelix or other slow walls, but Sticky Hold is much more consistent and allows Muk to be used as a counter to a predicted Trick. With a little prediction, this set is excellent as a defensive pivot against some Choice-locked special sweepers, such as Galvantula, Rotom-C, and Accelgor.</p>

    <p>Steelix is Muk's biggest counter in RU; he can do major damage with Earthquake or use Roar to force Muk out, so having a team member that can help remove Steelix will help tremendously. Due to his ability to take hits aimed at Muk's lower Defense stat, as well as his good type synergy with Muk, Tangrowth makes an excellent partner; additionally, Muk can tank Bug Buzzes that Tangrowth fears. On the offensive side of things, Honchkrow is unparalleled as a teammate. Immunities to both of Muk's weaknesses give him several opportunities to switch in and do what he does best. Mandibuzz shares Honchkrow's typing and is also a wonderful companion; she usually carries Toxic and Whirlwind, which in conjunction with entry hazards can help bring the opposition into Shadow Sneak KO range. Last, but not least, Sigilyph can spread around burns to supplement Muk's physical bulk, and it can switch into attacks that he is weak to.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Tank
    move 1: Gunk Shot / Poison Jab
    move 2: Focus Punch
    move 3: Ice Punch / Shadow Sneak
    move 4: Fire Punch / Pain Split
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Sticky Hold
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Although this set looks similar to the Choice Band set, it plays very differently. The ability to switch moves gives Muk several opportunities to dish out respectable damage while still sponging many common special attacks. Poison Jab and Gunk Shot are equally viable on this set; Gunk Shot will, in the long run, do more overall damage than Poison Jab would, but 100% accuracy is always nice. Muk's STAB will lure out most Steel-types, so Focus Punch is often a good move to follow up with if there is a likely switch. Ice Punch beats Gligar and Claydol, and Fire Punch deals with Ferroseed; as coverage moves, they complement Poison and Fighting well in RU. Shadow Sneak is pretty weak here, but it can still pick off a weakened sweeper. Pain Split can help improve Muk's longevity. Muk should be used on a team that can best capitalize on his unique traits and advantages over other special walls: Sticky Hold, immunity to Toxic, and the ability to absorb Toxic Spikes.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>RU is an offensively biased tier, and the EV spread reflects this. As a tank, EVs can certainly be taken from Attack to boost Defenses. Keep in mind that 200 HP EVs give Muk a Leftovers number, so that should be the lowest mark that you put HP. Brick Break shares coverage with Focus Punch and can be used more reliably; however, Muk should probably be switching out when facing threats that Brick Break would hurt more than his other moves. The recommended moves provide impressive coverage in RU, with only Qwilfish resisting all of them. Taunt can be somewhat useful in preventing hazards or status. Although extremely situational, Muk boasts resistances to the STAB attacks of the most common sleep users in RU, namely Butterfree, Lilligant, and Amoonguss, so Sleep Talk can be used over Focus Punch to make him an excellent sleep absorber. Good general teammates include Tangrowth, Mandibuzz, Sigilyph, Uxie, Lilligant, Ludicolo, Slowking, and any Pokemon that doesn't like Toxic Spikes.</p>

    [SET]
    name: SubPunch
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Focus Punch
    move 3: Gunk Shot / Ice Punch
    move 4: Shadow Sneak / Pain Split
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Sticky Hold
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Def / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Focus Punch is Muk's best answer to his enemies and allows him to cripple common counters. Substitute makes Focus Punch much more reliable and eases the need for prediction; hence, a SubPunch set is obvious. Gunk Shot is preferred as the STAB attack for its sheer power; additionally, on this set, Muk usually has the safety of a Substitute to buffer an untimely miss. The combination of Poison- and Fighting-type attacks only misses neutral coverage on Poison- and Ghost-types, which Muk's fourth move should provide. Ice Punch decimates Gligar, Claydol, and Roselia, and Pain Split provides semi-reliable recovery; however, Muk's rather large HP stat makes Pain Split difficult to use.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>As always, Steelix is public enemy number one in Muk's book. Focus Punch is a 3HKO on the standard Steelix, who can break Muk's Substitute with Earthquake or use Roar to rack up hazard damage. However, the listed EVs do well against most other checks. Focus Punch is a clean OHKO on common Aggron sets after Stealth Rock breaks Sturdy, and also does heavy damage to Magneton. 212 HP EVs give Muk 101 HP Substitutes that cannot be broken by Seismic Toss or Night Shade. However, the use of these moves in BW RU is fairly rare, with Clefable being the only common user of Seismic Toss, so this standard and somewhat aged benchmark could be disregarded and EVs can be moved to Speed as desired (44 Speed EVs beats the standard support Omastar).</p>

    <p>Alternatively, an EV spread of 212 HP / 96 Atk / 200 SpD can be used for better special tanking. Fire Blast and a Brave nature is specifically useful for Tangrowth, Scolipede, and Ferroseed, letting Muk 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 2HKO without hazards, and circumvent Iron Barbs damage, respectively. This still leaves Muk with enough power to 2HKO standard Magneton after Stealth Rock with Focus Punch followed by Fire Blast, and the boost in Muk's Special Defense means Magneton will only do 32-38% to Muk with a Modest Thunderbolt, and a Choice Scarf Volt Switch will manage to break his Substitute less than 20% of the time.</p>

    <p>Tangrowth and Honchkrow make excellent teammates to Muk due to their typing and stat spread. Choice Scarf Galvantula and Accelgor can help eliminate Psychic-types that resist Focus Punch with their super effective STAB. Accelgor can also lay Spikes that ensure certain KOs for Muk.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Curse
    move 1: Curse
    move 2: Poison Jab
    move 3: Fire Punch
    move 4: Shadow Sneak / Pain Split
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Sticky Hold
    nature: Careful
    evs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>What sets Muk apart from other Curse users is his excellent ability, Sticky Hold. With no fear of being Tricked a Choice item, Muk can switch in on a wall or weaker special attacker and start to Curse up. After two or three Curse boosts, only a strong Earth Power or Psychic will take Muk out. Poison Jab is preferred on this set for its higher PP and consistent damage. Fire Punch and Shadow Sneak provide additional coverage and become respectably powerful after a few Curses. Shadow Sneak also leaves even the normally dirt-slow Muk with a means of attacking quickly.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>More Defense EVs can be used to survive certain attacks, but Muk should begin his setup against offensively weak walls that lack Will-O-Wisp or Haze. It is perfectly fine (and to some preferable) to place only 200 EVs in HP to give a Leftovers number, with the remaining 56 EVs going into Defense. Setting up on Pokemon such as defensive Omastar and even Choice Scarf Galvantula can be possible, but be sure a +2 (or so) Shadow Sneak can finish the opponent off.</p>

    <p>Different moves can be swapped in this set, but note that Muk should not attempt to run a mono-attacking set of Rest, Sleep Talk, Curse, and a STAB move because Poison-type STAB has garbage coverage—pardon the pun. Rest is certainly useful to nullify damage and status, but Muk will rarely find space for it. Ice Punch or Fire Punch are better moves to use on a mono-attacking Curse set, but Muk likes coverage and is generally outclassed when using a Curse set with moves other than the recommended ones. Brick Break can be considered over Fire Punch for the utility of breaking dual screens and the excellent neutral coverage with Shadow Sneak.</p>

    <p>Good team members for Muk are somewhat situational for this set; he does not fear Toxic, Trick, or even hazards as this set won't be switching out very often. Although Magneton shares a Ground-type weakness, he can trap and remove the opponent's Steelix, a common phazer. Uxie can provide dual screens support to protect Muk as the Curse-fest begins.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Muk has a respectable offensive movepool and a few usable support moves. While Thief, Taunt, Torment, and Toxic make a nifty alliteration, Muk usually shouldn't be using them. He can summon sun and rain for your team, but Muk has a pretty bad case of four moveslot syndrome as it stands, and can't really spare a spot on any of the listed sets. Muk can force switches with Screech and surprise stat boosters with Haze; he can also use Pain Split for semi-reliable recovery. Memento can allow a frail sweeper a free switch in, but can be hard to use effectively with such low Speed. Other notable offensive moves include: Thunder, Thunderbolt, ThunderPunch, Focus Blast, Sludge Wave, Facade, Dark Pulse, Rock Slide, Shadow Ball, Giga Drain, and Explosion, but the listed moves generally offer better coverage. As a Poison-type, Muk has access to Black Sludge which can be used similarly to Leftovers due to Sticky Hold. For sheer surprise factor, Muk can equip a Choice Scarf to outpace all base 97 Speed foes, such as Sigilyph.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Steelix, Steelix, and Steelix again. Bulky Steel-, Rock-, and Ground-types will usually counter Muk to some extent. Aggron and Gligar are good examples, but the former must watch for boosted Focus Punches, and the latter for Ice Punch. Maintaining physically offensive pressure will leave Muk with few opportunities to switch in, and sleep will completely shut down all but the odd Sleep Talk variants. Will-O-Wisp will also cripple Muk and severely undermine his bulk. Hazers and phazers such as Steelix, Cofagrigus, Hariyama, and Drapion stop Curse sets, and smart switching will limit the effectiveness of Choice sets. Muk is exceedingly easy to revenge kill if he lacks a Substitute or a boosted Shadow Sneak, so any strong Psychic- or Ground-type attack will usually lead to his demise.</p>

    [Unreleased]

    <p>Muk receives Poison Touch from the Dream World. If Muk's team doesn't have many other status users, Poison Touch is competitive on the Choice Band set. On the other hand, regular poison is often more of a gift than a hindrance to opponents, as they can avoid Toxic poison or other more crippling status. Sticky Hold is one of the few advantages Muk has to offer over his peers and should always be considered first.</p>
  2. BTzz

    BTzz spams overhand rights
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    This isn't in propper format. Please follow the Queue System shown here.

    In short:

    1) Start out with the (Quality Control) tag and break up your information in bullet points so it's easier for the QC team to determine what you should include

    2) once you get 3 approvals from QC members you change the tag to (Copyediting). At this point you can begin writing

    3) The GP team looks over your grammar / spelling. Once you get 2 GP members approval, your analysis is done

    Some other things:

    1. Unbold everything
    2. All your sets should follow this format

    name:
    move 1:
    move 2:
    nove 3:
    move 4:
    item:
    ability:
    nature:
    evs:

    here's a Muk
    [​IMG]

    hope this helped :)
  3. SuperJOCKE

    SuperJOCKE Lowtier Warrior!
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    Brizznetz, you forgot to mention the stats (and the link is wrong as well). Anyways, it's:

    evs: HP / Atk / Def / SpA / SpD / Spe. In that exact order.
  4. lars

    lars

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    I've seen the above posts, I'll delete the paragraphs and go to bullets as soon as I can

    Thanks for the help and the Muk

    and my sets follow this format. Unless I need to make them all lower case...?
  5. SuperJOCKE

    SuperJOCKE Lowtier Warrior!
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    Yes, all lower case. Also, don't forget to unbold everything when do the changes like he said.

    And don't forget to change the stats too.
  6. Pearl.

    Pearl.

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    This is how the Choice Band set should look like:

    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Gunk Shot / Poison Jab
    move 2: Fire Punch
    move 3: Explosion / Ice Punch
    move 4: Shadow Sneak
    item: Choice Band
    ability: Sticky Hold
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe

    Fire Punch kind of outclasses Brick Break because of Durant's existence. Leave it in AC. If you give me a good reason, then you can slash Focus Punch with it. Shadow Punch is useless, and the ability to actually revenge kill stuff (such as offensive Rotom) is one of Muk's unique traits compared to other Pokemon similar to it. Explosion is, unlike many people think, very good on Choice Band Muk, since Explosion allows it to hit some of the Pokemon that love switching into it hard and most importantly, gives one frail Pokemon such as Accelgor a free switch. Ice Punch hits Gligar though, so it should be slashed. Gunk Shot VS Poison Jab is like Flamethrower VS Fire Blast and with even less accuracy than Fire Blast, I'd definitively opt for Poison Jab, but that's relative so keep it there. Also, Stench should be left in AC / OO with Sleep Talk, Brick Break, Focus Punch and Shadow Punch.

    Once these changes are done... nevermind, this isn't finished yet. Just one quick note: Remove the Sleeper's Nemisis set, as it's unreliable. If you really want to mention Sleep Talk somewhere, do it in AC or OO. Even Curse / Rest / Sleep Talk /Poison Jab Muk is awful, due to how bad Poison STAB is. I also dislike the slashes on the Curse and the SubPunch sets, but we can solve that once you're done with the entire skeleton.
  7. lars

    lars

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    I completely agree with the removal of Shadow Punch, it was really only an after thought. Poison Jab and Gunk Shot, as you said, is certainly up to personal preference. When I tested this set, if I had Gunk Shot, I didn't carry explosion. the difference will only be 70 bp when all is said and done and Explosion doesn't leave you with a second chance. TBH, I didn't test it with dry Focus Punches much, I might try to do that a little over the next few days before I decide for or against it in the main set. (I'll AC it otherwise)

    Also Poison Jab / Gunk Shot is 120 vs 180 (factoring STAB) and Flamethrower Fire Blast is 95 vs 120. Poison Jab was always slightly disappointing to me power-wise. (Really enjoyed the OHKO on Gallade, Sigilyph, etc with Gunk Shot on the switch)

    ^ done now
  8. -Tsunami-

    -Tsunami- ¡YA HA!
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    The second set seems pointless. I don't think Muk needs a set specifically to absorb sleep and use Sleep Talk; Sleep Powder isn't even that common in RU.
  9. Honko

    Honko
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    Hey, not bad for a first analysis. Nice to see you clearly put some effort into this. It's a little hard to read the Other Options / Checks and Counters / Dream World sections, so please add a space between each of them, and make sure to add an Overview tag at the top.

    As for the sets:
    Change the Choice Band set to the one Pearl posted. Fire Punch is the best coverage move, but definitely mention Brick Break in AC and specifically note that it hits Aggron, Kabutops, and Omastar, who can all set up on the rest of Muk's moves. Also, the 4 extra EVs should go in Speed to beat Tangrowth. The only thing I disagree with Pearl is I think Gunk Shot should stay the first slash. It's true that it's less accurate than Fire Blast, but Poison Jab is also much less powerful than Flamethrower, and over the long run Gunk Shot will do more damage than Poison Jab. Considering Muk's good-but-not-great Attack, I think the much higher power makes Gunk Shot worthy of being the primary slash.

    Get rid of the 2nd set. You can mention in OO that Muk makes a decent sleep absorber, but it's not worth a set.

    Adamant with 212 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Def / 4 Spe should be the main spread for the SubPunch set. Muk needs all the power it can get. Also, remove the Fire Blast slash. Surprising Durant is pretty cool, but you end up completely walled by Ghost-types, and Durant actually takes quite a bit from Focus Punch. Definitely give Fire Blast a blurb in OO though.

    I usually don't like Curse sets this gen, but Muk seems decent since Earthquakes and strong Psychics are fairly rare in RU right now. Rest shouldn't be slashed though, especially with his STAB move. The moves should be Curse, Poison Jab, Brick Break / Fire Punch, and Shadow Sneak / Payback.

    Also, I disagree with your Dream World section. Poison Touch will probably be Muk's best ability once it's released, at least for the CB set.
  10. Pearl.

    Pearl.

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    I do agree 212 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Def / 4 Spe with an Adamant nature is a very good EV spread for the SubPunch set. What about this?

    [SET]
    name: SubPunch
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Focus Punch
    move 3: Gunk Shot / Ice Punch
    move 4: Shadow Sneak / Pain Split
    item: Leftovers / Black Sludge
    ability: Sticky Hold
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Def / 4 Spe

    Due to the lack of something to boost its attack, Poison Jab's power is kind of underwhelming, so it should be left in AC. Ice Punch needs to be slashed with Gunk Shot though, since Gligar completely stops this set otherwise, and Fighting / Ice coverage is very good. Leftovers does exactly the same thing as Black Sludge due to Sticky Hold, so it should also be mentioned somewhere for the sake of it. Also, 105 / 75 / 100, despite the underwhelming Defense stat is very good, and there should be at least a tank set (which isn't outclassed as you have mentioned, due to its much higher Special Defense when compared to stuff like Rotom or Weezing. It also has recovery in form of Pain Split (even though it's kind of unreliable), which didn't even get an OO mention. The Curse set should look like what I'll show below. I won't mention the reasons though, since they're either pretty obvious or I've already said them before.

    [SET]
    name: Curse
    move 1: Curse
    move 2: Poison Jab
    move 3: Fire Punch
    move 4: Shadow Sneak / Rest
    item: Leftovers / Black Sludge
    ability: Sticky Hold
    nature: Careful
    evs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD

    For Pokemon to use as teammates, mention Pokemon that dislike Toxic Spikes, such as Slowking and Tangrowth, and stuff that benefits from having the Steel-types Muk attracs down. The best example I can find is SubRoost Honchkrow, which also has an amazing synergy with Muk. Also, I only noticed now this is your first analysis. Good job! I've probably forgot something, but I'll post it later if it's very important.
  11. SuperJOCKE

    SuperJOCKE Lowtier Warrior!
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    No Pearl., that's not considered Speed creep. lars, do as Honko said about that.
  12. Pearl.

    Pearl.

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    kk just removed the part of my post where i spoke about speed creep
  13. lars

    lars

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    Ok, I don't have quite enough time to make all the fixes right now, but I hid the Sleep absorber by popular demand.

    -In the original post that is Hidden at the top I included many more OO and AC such as teammates, I will pull some of those out into the skeleton later.

    All the changes suggested mostly make sense to me.

    I do want to note, I've seen Seismic Toss a whole 2 times ever in RU. 404 HP standard isn't even important; although, I suppose it's as good as any EV spread so I guess I'll keep it.

    Focus Punch certainly deserves a slash on the CB set. and it might even deserve to be a main move. STAB poison lures out ghosts, steels, and rocks anyway which take loads more damage (steels and rock) from Focus Punch than Explosion. (I know FP doesn't make a case vs ghosts, but at least you didn't kill Muk for nothing.)

    Whenever I was using the CB set with Explosion, I wished I had Focus Punch or at least Brick Break, and never vice-versa. Explosion will certainly remain a slash though.

    I've only been in 2 battles vs a Muk in RU so its nearly impossible for me to develop an "opponent's" opinion on him unfortunately.

    I really think the moves for Choice Band should be
    move 1: Gunk Shot / Poison Jab
    move 2: Focus Punch & Brick Break tied. Personally leaning to FP
    move 3: Fire Punch
    move 4: Shadow Sneak (Payback can be slashed here)

    I could use advice on where Ice Punch, Explosion, etc should be slashed.

    and @ Honko, yes Poison Touch is OK for CB set, my teams usually spread para or use sleep so often Posion (especially regular poison) is just to their advantage. I'll mention that, but I really do think Sticky Hold is much better for any Curse, SubPunch, or Tank sets. Especially since his STABs spread regular poison too.

    Thanks for all the advice!
  14. Pearl.

    Pearl.

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    Brick Break is (kind of) pointless with Fire Punch. If you really want to include Focus Punch, then just slash it with Fire Punch. Like this:

    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Gunk Shot / Poison Jab
    move 2: Fire Punch / Focus Punch
    move 3: Explosion / Ice Punch
    move 4: Shadow Sneak
    item: Choice Band
    ability: Sticky Hold
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe

    I'm not sure though, can you provide me a log or two of Focus Punch Muk being useful? That should probably be enough to make me change my mind.
  15. lars

    lars

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    I'll make some logs of Muk sets. I am fairly busy during the week so there might be a slight delay in bent ready for QC. Although as far as I can tell, a Muk analysis isn't exactly in high demand... so the delay will probably not bug anyone.

    Whoops I noticed I still had the 4 Def typo on CB, that should be Spe for sure
  16. lars

    lars

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    Double post sorry

    I think I am ready for QC now, all in all this is looking a lot like the 4th gen UU analysis, but I suppose it still all works similarly


    I've played over 150 battles with Muk on my team in the last 2 weeks. I'll be glad when all this is over; I'm getting a little tired of him now lol.

    I've taken most of the suggestions and altered the sets accordingly.

    Quick questions
    I feel like Muk fills an Offensive tank role better than a mixed wall or a more defensive set (especially with the lack of WoW and T-wave) and I've personally had more success with the posted Tank set than any different "Tank" set Muk could run, but I'm open to suggestions there for sure.


    I feel like Rest could go in place of any of the listed Curse moves, but is there a specific one it should just be placed? I think Shadow Sneak is important so the ability to negate the speed drop is always there... Pain Split could possibly deserve a slash, but if Muk is going with a healing move on that set, Rest seems like the better choice to me at least.


    Any expected time that Poison Touch will be released? I assume not soon


    Now a few set comments

    On the Choice Band set, most of Muk's common switch ins resist or are immune to Explosion. This combined with the unfortunate Nerf really puts it as a secondary move. Focus Punch hits common counters harder, doesn't kill him, and serves as a good way to make his counters wary of coming in (after showing off one Focus Punch, Aggron certainly won't be switching in as confidently) Obviously it requires some pretty good prediction, but this CB set really does anyway.

    Gunk Shot is listed as first choice on all but the Curse set because of its substantially better damage output. Yeah 70% sucks, but (180)(.7) > 120 and it will do slightly more damage on average. Poison Jab is slashed with it for everyone who dislikes hax.

    Focus Punch is even better on the Tank set, Gunk Shot something for good damage, Focus Punch the steel switch in.

    Brick Break is usually just an AC because of Focus Punch (really only viable damage wise on the CB set) as for the secondary utility, Muk loses to the common dual screeners in RU anyway.

    I don't really agree that Fire and Fighting have the same common coverage in RU. Kabutops/Omastar, Aggron, Durant, Scyther, Accelgor, Scolipede, Crawdaunt/Sharpedo, and Rhydon all have effectiveness at least 4x different. I do agree that Fire Punch is better than Brick Break on Muk.

    * A few logs displaying Focus Punch on both CB and Tank sets
    Show Hide


    CB 1
    Start of turn 6
    Muk test called Manectric back!
    Muk test sent out Muk!
    Muk is hurt by spikes!

    The foe's Ferroseed used Protect!
    But it failed!

    Start of turn 7
    Muk is tightening its focus!
    The foe's Ferroseed used Spikes!
    Spikes were scattered all around the feet of Muk test's team!

    Muk used Focus Punch!
    It's super effective!
    The foe's Ferroseed lost 82% of its health!
    The foe's Ferroseed's Iron Barbs hurts Muk

    Start of turn 8
    Muk test called Muk back!
    Muk test sent out Kabutops!
    Kabutops is hurt by spikes!

    Shampain called Ferroseed back!
    Shampain sent out Slowking!

    Kabutops restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

    CB 2


    Start of turn 18
    Manectric used Switcheroo!
    Manectric switched items with the foe's Clefable!
    Manectric obtained one Leftovers!
    The foe's Clefable obtained one Choice Scarf!

    The foe's Clefable used Toxic!
    Manectric was badly poisoned!

    Manectric restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
    Manectric is hurt by poison!

    Start of turn 19
    Manectric used Volt Switch!
    The foe's Clefable lost 41% of its health!
    Muk test called Manectric back!
    Muk test sent out Muk!
    Pointed stones dug into Muk!

    The foe's Clefable used Toxic!
    But it failed!

    Start of turn 20
    Muk is tightening its focus!
    [Drac]Blazeisback called Clefable back!
    [Drac]Blazeisback sent out Bouffalant!
    Pointed stones dug into the foe's Bouffalant!

    Muk used Focus Punch!
    It's super effective!
    The foe's Bouffalant lost 87% of its health!
    The foe's Bouffalant fainted!

    [Drac]Blazeisback sent out Clefable!

    Also...
    I have KOed Klinklangs and Magnetons on the switch, sorry I don't have the logs

    Tank
    Start of turn 2
    blah ra called Hitmonchan back!
    blah ra sent out Uxie!

    Muk used Gunk Shot!
    The attack of Muk missed!

    Muk restored a little HP using its Black Sludge!

    Start of turn 3
    The foe's Uxie used Trick!
    But it failed!

    Muk used Gunk Shot!
    The foe's Uxie lost 47% of its health!

    Muk restored a little HP using its Black Sludge!

    Start of turn 4
    Muk is tightening its focus!
    blah ra called Uxie back!
    blah ra sent out Aggron!

    Muk used Focus Punch!
    It's super effective!
    The foe's Aggron lost 100% of its health!
    The foe's Aggron fainted!

    Muk restored a little HP using its Black Sludge!
    blah ra sent out Slowking!





    Ok! I hope it's all good! (Hey everybody, this guy can actually be pretty good, try him out!)
  17. Pearl.

    Pearl.

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2010
    Messages:
    318
    Make the Choice Band set look like this:

    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Gunk Shot / Poison Jab
    move 2: Focus Punch / Fire Punch
    move 3: Ice Punch
    move 4: Shadow Sneak
    item: Choice Band
    ability: Sticky Hold
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe

    And change the SubPunch set to this:


    [SET]
    name: SubPunch
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Focus Punch
    move 3: Gunk Shot / Ice Punch
    move 4: Shadow Sneak / Pain Split
    item: Leftovers / Black Sludge
    ability: Sticky Hold
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Def / 4 Spe

    101 HP Substitutes along with Pain Split is actually very good. If you really feel like it, then slash Payback with Shadow Sneak and Pain Split. The Curse set should be this one:

    [SET]
    name: Curse
    move 1: Curse
    move 2: Poison Jab
    move 3: Fire Punch
    move 4: Shadow Sneak / Pain Split
    item: Leftovers / Black Sludge
    ability: Sticky Hold
    nature: Careful
    evs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD

    Rest is disappointing, especially with the nerf it suffered. I don't like the EV spread you're using on the Tank set, but I don't have a better idea, so just wait for the other QC members. Once those changes are done...

    [​IMG]

    QC APPROVED 1/3

    And don't ignore them like you did with most of the changes I suggested in the past, or I'll be VERY mad.

    EDIT: Forgot to remind you of something I said in another post and you totally ignored:

  18. -Tsunami-

    -Tsunami- ¡YA HA!
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winneris a SPL Winner
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,745
    Add what Pearl stated pl0x.

    QC APPROVED 2/3
  19. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2009
    Messages:
    7,630
    What Shake said

    QC APPROVED 3/3

    The above being conditional on the implementation of Pearl's changes
  20. lars

    lars

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    265
    I'm sorry if it appeared otherwise, but I do take this very seriously. I have ignored nothing suggested. I have tested suggested sets fairly rigorously and made changes accordingly.

    As for the leftovers / Black Sludge issue, I was simply following a precedence set by the 4th Gen Muk analysis and I did mention Leftovers in the OO where I do admit it got kind of lost in the wall of text.

    -I tried other EVs for the Tank set, in the end he almost always ended up being the most useful with max power...


    Again, I meant no offense. I'm sorry.

    You certainly gave me the most advice and I appreciate it.


    All Suggestions Added, moving on to GP I guess

    Edit wow, just noticed. 100 posts. O.o
  21. lars

    lars

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    265
    Sorry for the delay. Having no internet sucks >.>

    ready for GP
  22. sirndpt

    sirndpt
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    1,124
    [​IMG]

    c/p (open)
    [Overview]

    <p>When looking for a defensive Poison-type in RU, Weezing is often the first choice and Muk is overlooked. However, Muk has many desirable defensive, and even offensive, traits that allow him to compete just as effectively. He boasts a base HP stat 50 points higher, a base Special Defense stat of 100, and the wonderful ability Sticky Hold. With resistances to common Grass-, Bug-, and Fighting-type moves, Muk can effectively wall many different attackers in RU while retaining the ability to deal massive damage thanks to his oft-forgotten base 105 Attack. His extensive movepool also allows for several viable sets and he can serve as a consistent Toxic Spikes absorber. Unfortunately all is not roses when you smell as bad as Muk; his weakness to Psychic-type moves and the common Ground-type attacks can make tanking difficult, and despite his good Attack stat, there are many Pokemon that can wall him due to his terrible Poison STAB. His Speed isn't helping his sweeping potential either. Play him right and his strengths greatly overshadow his flaws. Give Muk a chance and some support; he can certainly carry his weight.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Gunk Shot / Poison Jab
    move 2: Focus Punch / Fire Punch
    move 3: Ice Punch
    move 4: Shadow Sneak
    item: Choice Band
    ability: Sticky Hold
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Perhaps surprisingly, this might be Muk's best set for RU; it is also the easiest to use. Wait until any Steel- and Ground-types have been removed, and then pound your opponent into the ground with STAB Gunk Shots. Muk's natural bulk lets him take a hit and retaliate, making his poor Speed less of an issue. Poison Jab has better accuracy but disappointing power for a Choice Band. The other moves work well for general coverage. Fire Punch can be used if your team has problems with Durant and Ferroseed. Focus Punch is notable as Muk's biggest answer to his counters. Steel-types expecting a Gunk Shot are obvious switch-ins, so when Steelix takes 56.6 – 66.7% and standard defensive Aggron, Magneton, and Kabutops are all OHKOed, the appeal of Focus Punch is obvious. Finally, Muk also packs emergency priority in Shadow Sneak, which lets it pick off the last 10% or so of HP on a threatening sweeper.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>252 HP EVs give Muk the best mixed bulk and 252 Attack EVs provide the much-needed power. Other EV spreads are usually not as useful, but if a little investment can stop the OHKO or 2HKO from a particular threat, feel free to take some from Attack. Dry Focus Punches are almost taboo, so Brick Break can be used to hit Kabutops and Omastar harder than Fire Punch would. Even with the huge nerf, Explosion does respectable damage on this set and can help a frail sweeper get a free switch in. Stench can be used for the rare, but useful flinch on Steelix or other slow walls, but Sticky Hold is much more consistent and allows Muk to be used as a counter to a predicted Trick. With a little prediction, this set is excellent as a defensive pivot against some Choice-locked special sweepers, such as <examples>.</p>

    <p>Steelix is Muk's biggest counter in RU; he can do major damage with Earthquake or use Roar to force Muk out, so having a team member that can help remove Steelix will help tremendously. Due to his ability to take hits aimed at Muk's lower Defense stat, as well as his good type synergy with Muk, Tangrowth makes an excellent partner, and Muk can tank Bug Buzzes that Tangrowth fears. On the offensive side of things, Honchkrow is unparalleled as a teammate. Immunities to both of Muk's weaknesses give him several opportunities to switch in and do what he does best. Mandibuzz shares Honchkrow's typing and is also a wonderful companion; she usually carries Toxic and Whirlwind, which in conjunction with entry hazards can help bring the opposition into Shadow Sneak KO range. Last, but not least, Sigilyph can spread around burns to supplement Muk's physical bulk, and it can switch into attacks that he is weak to.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive Tank
    move 1: Gunk Shot / Poison Jab
    move 2: Focus Punch
    move 3: Ice Punch / Shadow Sneak
    move 4: Fire Punch / Pain Split
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Sticky Hold
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Although this set looks similar to the Choice Band set, it plays very differently. The ability to switch moves gives Muk several opportunities to dish out respectable damage while still sponging many common special attacks. Poison Jab and Gunk Shot are equally viable on this set; Gunk Shot will, in the long run, still do more overall damage than Poison Jab would, but 100% accuracy is always nice. Muk's STAB will lure out most Steel-types, so Focus Punch is often a good move to follow up with if there is a likely switch. Ice Punch beats Gligar and Claydol, and Fire Punch deals with Ferroseed; as coverage moves, they complement Poison and Fighting well in RU. Shadow Sneak is pretty weak here, but it can still pick off a weakened sweeper. Pain Split can help improve his longevity. Muk should be used on a team that can best capitalize on his unique traits and advantages over other special walls: Sticky Hold, immunity to Toxic, and the ability to absorb Toxic Spikes.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>RU is an offensively biased tier, and the EV spread reflects this. As a tank, EVs can certainly be taken from Attack to boost Defenses. 200 HP EVs give it a Leftovers number. Brick Break shares coverage with Focus Punch and can be used more reliably; however, Muk should probably be switching out when facing threats that Brick Break would hurt more than his other moves. The recommended moves provide impressive coverage in RU with only Qwilfish resisting all of them. Taunt can be somewhat useful in preventing hazards or status. Although extremely situational, Muk boasts resistances to the STABs of the most common sleep users in RU, namely <examples>, so Sleep Talk can be used over Focus Punch to make him an excellent sleep absorber.</p>

    <p>Good general teammates include Tangrowth, Mandibuzz, Sigilyph, Uxie, Lilligant, Ludicolo, Slowking, and any Pokemon that doesn't like Toxic Spikes.</p>

    [SET]
    name: SubPunch
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Focus Punch
    move 3: Gunk Shot / Ice Punch
    move 4: Shadow Sneak / Pain Split
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Sticky Hold
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Def / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>As previously alluded to, Focus Punch is Muk's best answer to his enemies and allows him to cripple common counters. Focus Punch is also much more reliable behind a Substitute and eases the need for prediction; hence, a SubPunch set is obvious. Gunk Shot is still preferred for its sheer power; additionally, on this set, Muk usually has the safety of a Substitute to buffer an untimely miss. Poison and Fighting only miss neutral coverage on Poison and Ghost, which Muk's third move should provide. Ice Punch decimates Gligar, Claydol and Roselia; Pain Split provides semi-reliable recovery.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>As always, Steelix is public enemy number one in Muk's book. Focus Punch is a 3HKO on the standard Steelix, who can break Muk's Substitute with Earthquake or use Roar to rack up hazards damage. However, the listed EVs do well against most other checks. Focus Punch is a clean OHKO on common Aggron sets after Stealth Rock breaks Sturdy, and also does heavy damage to Magneton. 212 HP EVs give 101 HP Substitutes that cannot be broken by Seismic Toss or Night Shade. However, the use of these moves in BW RU is fairly rare, so this standard and somewhat aged benchmark could be disregarded <what would it be then? move the def evs to hp? move the hp evs to speed? what do the 4 speed evs do anyway? looks like speed creep to me>.</p>

    <p>Alternatively, an EV spread of 212 HP / 96 Atk / 200 Spd can be used for better special tanking. Fire Blast and a Brave nature is specifically useful for Tangrowth, Durant, and Ferroseed, letting Muk 2HKO after Stealth Rock, OHKO, and circumvent Iron Barbs damage respectively. This still leaves Muk with enough power to 2HKO standard Magneton after Stealth Rock with Focus Punch followed by Fire Blast, and the boost in Muk's Special Defense means Magneton will only do 32 - 38% to Muk with a Modest Thunderbolt, and a Choice Scarf Volt Switch will manage to break his Substitute less than 20% of the time.</p>

    <p>As also described above, Tangrowth and Honchkrow make excellent teammates. Durant appreciates the absence of Magneton and Aggron, whom Muk will typically lure out. Choice Scarf Galvantula and Accelgor can help eliminate Psychic-types that resist Focus Punch with their super effective STAB. Accelgor can also lay Spikes that ensure certain KOs for Muk.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Curse
    move 1: Curse
    move 2: Poison Jab
    move 3: Fire Punch
    move 4: Shadow Sneak / Pain Split
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Sticky Hold
    nature: Careful
    evs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>What sets Muk apart from other Curse users is his excellent ability, Sticky Hold. With no fear of being Tricked a Choice item, Muk can come in on a wall or weaker special attacker and start to curse up. After two or three Curse boosts, only a strong Earth Power or Psychic will take Muk out. Poison Jab is preferred on this set for consistent damage. Fire Punch and Shadow Sneak provide respectable additional coverage and become respectably powerful after a few Curses. Shadow Sneak also leaves even the normally dirt-slow Muk with a means of attacking quickly.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>More Defense EVs can be used to survive certain attacks, but Muk should begin his setup against weak attacking walls that lack Will-O-Wisp or Haze. It is perfectly fine (and to some preferable) to place only 200 EVs in HP to give a Leftovers number, with the remaining 56 EVs going into Defense. Setting up on Pokemon such as defensive Omastar and even Choice Scarf Galvantula can be possible, just be sure a +2 (or so) Shadow Sneak can finish the opponent off.</p>

    <p>Different moves can be swapped in this set, but note that Muk should not attempt to run a Cro-Muk set of Rest, Sleep Talk, Curse, and a STAB move because Poison STAB has garbage coverage—pardon the pun. Rest is certainly useful to nullify damage and status, but Muk will rarely find space for it. Ice Punch or Fire Punch are better moves to use on a mono-attacking Curse set, but Muk likes coverage and is generally outclassed when using a Curse set with moves other than the recommended ones. Brick Break can be considered over Fire Punch for the utility of breaking dual screens and the excellent neutral coverage with Shadow Sneak.</p>

    <p>Good team members for Muk are somewhat situational for this set; he does not fear Toxic, Trick, or even hazards much as this set won't be switching out very often. Although Magneton shares a Ground weakness, he can trap and remove the opponent's Steelix, a common phazer. Uxie can provide dual screens support to protect Muk as the Curse-fest begins.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Muk has a respectable offensive movepool and a few usable support moves. While Thief, Taunt, Torment, and Toxic make a nifty alliteration, Muk usually shouldn't be using them. He can summon sun and rain for your team, but Muk has a pretty bad case of four moveslot syndrome as it stands, and can't spare a spot on any of the listed sets. Muk can force switches with Screech and surprise stat boosters with Haze; he can also use Pain Split for semi-reliable recovery. Memento can allow a frail sweeper a free switch in, but can be hard to use effectively with such low Speed. Other notable offensive moves include: Thunder, Thunderbolt, and ThunderPunch, Focus Blast, Sludge Wave, Facade, Dark Pulse, Rock Slide, Shadow Ball, Giga Drain, and Explosion, but the listed moves generally offer better coverage. For sheer surprise factor, Muk can equip a Choice Scarf to outpace all base 97 Speed foes, such as Sigilyph.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Steelix, Steelix, and Steelix again. Bulky Steel-, Rock-, and Ground-types will usually counter Muk to some extent. Aggron, Registeel, and Gligar are all good examples, but the former two must watch for boosted Focus Punches, and the latter for Ice Punch. Maintaining physically offensive pressure will leave Muk with few opportunities to switch in, and sleep will completely shut down all but the odd Sleep Talk variants. Will-O-Wisp will also cripple Muk and severely undermine his bulk. Hazers and phazers such as <examples> stop Curse sets, and smart switching will limit the effectiveness of Choice sets. Muk is exceedingly easy to revenge kill if he lacks a Substitute or a boosted Shadow Sneak, so any strong Psychic- or Ground-type attack will usually lead to his demise.</p>

    [Dream World]

    <p>Muk receives Poison Touch from the Dream World. If Muk's team doesn't have many other status users, Poison Touch is competitive on the Choice Band set. On the other hand, regular poison is often more of a gift than a hindrance to the opponent, as they can avoid Toxic poison or other more crippling status. Sticky Hold is one of the few advantages Muk has to offer over his peers and should always be considered first.</p>
  23. lars

    lars

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    265
    ): Does this mean I have a lot longer to wait?

    I thought it was written pretty well, how long do this checks take to do usually?
  24. TrollFreak

    TrollFreak (╮°-°)╮┳━┳ (╯°□°)╯ ┻━┻
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,249
    well, considering the amount of sets + changes sirnpdt made, she actually finished than what I would have expected

    Waiting patiently is a good thing.
  25. lars

    lars

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    265
    I'm sorry, I realize my previous post had an impatient tone. I am in no personal rush.

    Thank you Sirnpdt, you made it flow so much better while leaving my writing style and voice intact. You are truly talented at this.

    *Durant is BL2 so I will remove all mention of him.

    *4 Speed EVs allow him to out speed Tangrowth with no investment and avoid Sleep powder and leech seed. It also allows him to break sturdy on Support Aggron (most sets that aren't Rock Head ability don't run any speed evs)

    *Everything looks awesome and I agree with every change except the crossing out of Black Sludge... while Sticky Hold makes it nearly the same, Cofagrigus is pretty common and I have faced a Trick user while my ability was made Mummy. If the item slashes aren't protocol, wouldn't it be better to error on the side of caution and recommend Black Sludge?

    *I will be implementing Sirnpdt's G/P check and adding <examples> where noted tomorrow.

    Thanks again!

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