I've actually never thought about it that way. I really like your reasoning here! This could work, I never put it together like you did. =o It would be interesting if a future game revealed this sort of backstory.
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SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon
- Thread starter stage7_4
- Start date
The Radio Tower has nothing to do with Team Rocket. I still don't know why the built the Radio Tower over the Pokemon Tower (seriously, there was no other place? Like how about Saffron City? It's the center of Kanto, connected to Goldenrod via the Magnet Train, and if you need a place to build it how about the Fighting Dojo since they're not getting their Gym status back and their master essentially abandoned it), but it didn't have anything to do with Team Rocket. Team Rocket only took over the Radio Tower in Goldenrod to contact Giovanni, they didn't own that and they only did so in a desperate last ditch attempt. I suppose they may have been planning on using the Radio Tower's later to send out those evolution inducing signals but those would still be takeovers.
Who says it was a desperate last ditched attempt? Given the "We did it, boss!" part of the message, I suspect that this had been in the works since before Giovanni disbanded Team Rocket. They had already infiltrated the Goldenrod radio tower well before you arrive there for the first time. (some time after officially being disbanded the first time) Why does the Director refuse to allow access to the floor above the one for Buena's Password? Because he's a Team Rocket executive posing as the Director, waiting for the experiment in Mahogany Town to be complete so they can get the inducement wave ready to be installed into the Radio Tower.
Technically the Mirage master found enough data on him through hacking other researchers works, but oh well take that with a grain of salt.
That does fit in with my suggestion quite nicely. There is ALWAYS records around. Always.
Technically, Mewtwo wiped everyone's memories of the encounter on the Island, and did destroy the lab, but some files and journals of his creation nonetheless survived the Ordeal. Was it ever actually proven that Mewtwo did anything to wipe out the lab records after erasing everyone's memory in the first movie?
Giovanni goes to great lengths trying to recapture Mewtwo over the course of that movie, holding the clones hostage, building machines specifically to neutralize his powers with the energy field they trapped him in, sending a spy and bringing a sizable number of his men, not to mention going on the mission personally. This leads me to believe Giovanni thought it was still a more worthwhile endeavor to recapture Mewtwo rather than try to create a new one.
I recall one exchange between him and Domino (I believe that was her name) about how Mewtwo is at risk of being destroyed resisting, and she warns that "it could take years to clone it again." Do we have any real record of how long the actual process of cloning Mewtwo took once the scientists had found the sample of Mew's DNA to use? I would imagine between the numerous attempts it would take to get a survivor (since the Amber and Starter clones evidently died in their attempts at the process), it was an extremely difficult process for the accomplished scientists, much less for Team Rocket's research team. I actually imagine Mewtwo might have started out as a Mew clone, but the changes made to his biology were to make him stronger not only as a Battle weapon, but to allow him to survive the cloning process in the first place. That said, considering Mewtwo was in turn able to recreate the cloning device in such a streamlined manner after rebuilding the lab, I figure by the time he was complete they had the process perfected. Team Rocket's concern over re-cloning him likely means they don't have the notes on how the process worked.
As far as Team Plasma, was it established if Mewtwo or the Genesect came first as experiments? I have a theory, but it's only worth sharing if I have an idea of that timeline.
While back ups are an extremely logical thing to do in an experiment of this magnitude, the Mewtwo Returns special offers me too much reason to believe that if they exist, Team Rocket didn't have them.
Giovanni goes to great lengths trying to recapture Mewtwo over the course of that movie, holding the clones hostage, building machines specifically to neutralize his powers with the energy field they trapped him in, sending a spy and bringing a sizable number of his men, not to mention going on the mission personally. This leads me to believe Giovanni thought it was still a more worthwhile endeavor to recapture Mewtwo rather than try to create a new one.
I recall one exchange between him and Domino (I believe that was her name) about how Mewtwo is at risk of being destroyed resisting, and she warns that "it could take years to clone it again." Do we have any real record of how long the actual process of cloning Mewtwo took once the scientists had found the sample of Mew's DNA to use? I would imagine between the numerous attempts it would take to get a survivor (since the Amber and Starter clones evidently died in their attempts at the process), it was an extremely difficult process for the accomplished scientists, much less for Team Rocket's research team. I actually imagine Mewtwo might have started out as a Mew clone, but the changes made to his biology were to make him stronger not only as a Battle weapon, but to allow him to survive the cloning process in the first place. That said, considering Mewtwo was in turn able to recreate the cloning device in such a streamlined manner after rebuilding the lab, I figure by the time he was complete they had the process perfected. Team Rocket's concern over re-cloning him likely means they don't have the notes on how the process worked.
As far as Team Plasma, was it established if Mewtwo or the Genesect came first as experiments? I have a theory, but it's only worth sharing if I have an idea of that timeline.
If you mean his own lab that he used to make more clones, I'm pretty sure he would be smart enough to destroy any notes before leaving.
If you're talking about the first time Mewtwo blew up the lab I would assume after convincing Mewtwo to join him that Giovanni had a recovery squad inspect the area for anything they can salvage (don't want to leave any incriminating evidence you were doing illegal genetic experiments just lying around on an island). I doubt Mewtwo had any notes when he made his more organic lab, he just knew how to do it.
Maybe the cost and amount of resources needed wasn't worth it a second time for Giovanni? I think it's pretty clear the Mewtwo project was a failure as Mewtwo wouldn't listen to him. And as you said who knows how long it'll take to create a new Mewtwo, and I'd imagine running the equipment to develop it takes a lot of money (and that is if the specimen survives, if it doesn't they'll have to start all over again costing even more money and resources). Speaking of resources, aside the money issue you do need some of Mew's DNA and I can't imagine there being a lot of that around. Even if they take tiny pieces of it at a time they still probably need a certain amount of genetic material to make a stable clone (heck, Mewtwo could be a result of there not being enough genetic material causing a mutation to fill the gaps).
BW's Mewtwo and the Genesect Army have no relation so it doesn't matter who came first. I just want to point out that in the prologue episode to M16 that the people who created BW's Mewtwo hired a Pokemon Hunter to get it back. Had Team Plasma made Mewtwo I highly doubt they'd hire a Pokemon Hunter instead of just using their own members, if only to try and keep it secret.
It is stated in the audio that at least it takes some time for it to be born normally as it had enough time to have chats via telepathy with another clone suspect.
Not to mention that the cloning staff relied on a few heavy work minds to push it forward, after their retirement, or should I say change of heart, lab destruction and possible cover ups that could go as far as getting e4 permission to access it's habitat one could say the statement of cloning a Mewtwo from scratch even with access to the samples would be hard.
But again I'm pulling the straws and getting my info on other cloning cases, as Mewtwo isn't a straight clone but a Savage enhanced version so one could asume that cloning mew is relatively easy, but getting the genetic blue print that allow the genes to trigger in the way needed to get a Mewtwo is somewhat harder, kind of like trying to get a glowing sheep or reproduce cyclop pigs for genetic studies on mutation as China apparently tried to do.
So a combination of lack of blueprint, process know how, lack of ability to do a low profile experiment of this magnitude, financial problems or lack of ability in the triggering of the right changes via hormonal or environment changes in the incubator controlled environment by lack of key staff could explain the effort.
Best theory, also rule of cool!
Let's be honest, Pokémon animation wise is inconsistent with the whole taking itself seriously, especially with the director rotation ruining it.
The anime takes itself seriously? I stopped watching it around Sinnoh so I'm not aware if it ever tried taking itself seriously...
I wouldn't say the anime is serious but more that they play things straight. A "dangerous"/life threatening situation is treated seriously but a comedic situation is treated with lightheartedness. For the most part I never really feel the anime is treating a situation out of tone. Sure maybe they treat a battle with a bit more drama like when one of the protagonists Pokemon faints or they're losing/have a disadvantage in some way, but that can be written off as the show being about battling/Pokemon performing so of course that's going to get some drama and suspense written into it.
The anime had a long list of problems (main ones are resetting Ash & Pikachu each region, characters developing slowly and/or not a lot, and general accuracy between it and the games), but to me tone never was top of the list.
Also "rule of cool" isn't why there's a second Mewtwo. Karxrida is right about why there's a second Mewtwo: the writers didn't want the extra baggage that comes with continuity. The ONLY continuity we got was Ash recognizing a Mewtwo on sight, but after that he might as well have never seen one. You'd think after seeing the Mewtwo acting distant like the original Mewtwo that Ash, who at least remembers his second meeting with the original Mewtwo, would try to help. But NOPE, in that movie Ash & co. are pretty much just viewers to the action taking place. There was no reason I cannot think of they couldn't use the original Mewtwo otherwise. Making parallel relation with the Genesect army? The original Mewtwo would have served as a better parallel since he had gotten past his cloning blues. Wanting Mewtwo not hold back? When has the original Mewtwo ever held back? Heck, having the original Mewtwo be there would make sense since the last time we saw Mewtwo he was in a New York-like city!
The only good thing we can take from this is that maybe the original Mewtwo can maybe have the Mega Mewtwo X form, he seems the type of Mewtwo who would prefer it.
Wow, lotta Mewtwo going around. Let's slow down and take stock of Mewtwo-two because there is a lot of cross continuity going on.
First, anime-only Mewtwo-two wasn't built by Team Rocket at all, but these shmucks:
who hired a guy called Dirk to recapture it, which led to the Genesect movie prequel episode (and then the movie itself of course). They seem to have used the same process as Team Rocket's (i.e. getting Mew's DNA and cloning it). Why? Who knows. It's Syence, emphasis on the misspelling.
What Mewtwo-two isn't is a recon, because it seems the original Mewtwo is still alive and kicking somewhere. He might have made a tiny reappearance in the intro for the Mega-evolution specials with his counterpart. And as predicted, he did turn into Mega Mewtwo X. Right here:
are both of them. No idea there they are going with this, but they didn't forget him at least.
I mean, unless there is a third Mewtwo and this cameo is entirely pointless. Which there is! But he's a mirage Mewtwo and went away with that tech. Unless there's a FOURTH! Maybe.
One point of contention is that complaints about the execution, tone, or quality of the anime are better done in the unpopular opinion thread. We might not like the canon we're given, but it's the canon we got and we can't defile that. At least here.
Edit*The Mega evolution cameo section, to make it more uncertain.
First, anime-only Mewtwo-two wasn't built by Team Rocket at all, but these shmucks:
who hired a guy called Dirk to recapture it, which led to the Genesect movie prequel episode (and then the movie itself of course). They seem to have used the same process as Team Rocket's (i.e. getting Mew's DNA and cloning it). Why? Who knows. It's Syence, emphasis on the misspelling.
What Mewtwo-two isn't is a recon, because it seems the original Mewtwo is still alive and kicking somewhere. He might have made a tiny reappearance in the intro for the Mega-evolution specials with his counterpart. And as predicted, he did turn into Mega Mewtwo X. Right here:
are both of them. No idea there they are going with this, but they didn't forget him at least.
I mean, unless there is a third Mewtwo and this cameo is entirely pointless. Which there is! But he's a mirage Mewtwo and went away with that tech. Unless there's a FOURTH! Maybe.
One point of contention is that complaints about the execution, tone, or quality of the anime are better done in the unpopular opinion thread. We might not like the canon we're given, but it's the canon we got and we can't defile that. At least here.
Edit*The Mega evolution cameo section, to make it more uncertain.
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I'm pretty sure the Mewtwo X thing was just there for the sake of showing off all of the then Megas. I don't believe they ever confirmed if Newtwo retconned to original away or not.Wow, lotta Mewtwo going around. Let's slow down and take stock of Mewtwo-two because there is a lot of cross continuity going on.
First, anime-only Mewtwo-two wasn't built by Team Rocket at all, but these shmucks:
who hired a guy called Dirk to recapture it, which led to the Genesect movie prequel episode (and then the movie itself of course). They seem to have used the same process as Team Rocket's (i.e. getting Mew's DNA and cloning it). Why? Who knows. It's Syence, emphasis on the misspelling.
What Mewtwo-two isn't is a recon, the original Mewtwo is still alive and kicking somewhere. He even made a tiny reappearance in the intro for the Mega-evolution specials. And as predicted, he did turn into Mega Mewtwo X. Right here:
are both of them. No idea there they are going with this, but they didn't forget him at least.
I mean, unless there is a third Mewtwo and this cameo is entirely pointless. Which there is! But he's a mirage Mewtwo and went away with that tech. Unless there's a FOURTH! Maybe.
One point of contention is that complaints about the execution, tone, or quality of the anime are better done in the unpopular opinion thread. We might not like the canon we're given, but it's the canon we got and we can't defile that. At least here.
Hold it, I think you got a few things crossed:Wow, lotta Mewtwo going around. Let's slow down and take stock of Mewtwo-two because there is a lot of cross continuity going on.
First, anime-only Mewtwo-two wasn't built by Team Rocket at all, but these shmucks:
who hired a guy called Dirk to recapture it, which led to the Genesect movie prequel episode (and then the movie itself of course). They seem to have used the same process as Team Rocket's (i.e. getting Mew's DNA and cloning it). Why? Who knows. It's Syence, emphasis on the misspelling.
What Mewtwo-two isn't is a recon, the original Mewtwo is still alive and kicking somewhere. He even made a tiny reappearance in the intro for the Mega-evolution specials. And as predicted, he did turn into Mega Mewtwo X. Right here:
are both of them. No idea there they are going with this, but they didn't forget him at least.
I mean, unless there is a third Mewtwo and this cameo is entirely pointless. Which there is! But he's a mirage Mewtwo and went away with that tech. Unless there's a FOURTH! Maybe.
One point of contention is that complaints about the execution, tone, or quality of the anime are better done in the unpopular opinion thread. We might not like the canon we're given, but it's the canon we got and we can't defile that. At least here.
1. The Mega Mewtwos that appear at the beginning of the Mega Evolution Special mean nothing, they're just there so that all the Mega Evolutions (at that time) have been shown.
2. The Mirage Mewtwo was a hologram, it's not an actual Mewtwo so it doesn't count (only the Mirage Mew had a soul of some kind).
Ash knows what a Mewtwo is already in the movie and since the only Mewtwo Ash has met is the original it hasn't been retcon. But since this is an entirely new Mewtwo they don't have Ash push the topic (I would have maybe liked to see recounting meeting a Mewtwo to Iris and Cilan or maybe at the end of the movie tells the new Mewtwo she isn't alone and there's another Mewtwo out there).
OK, I was replaying Platinum and went to Dr. Footprints house. Just for fun, I showed him my Gyarados and Rotom. He points out that those Pokemon don't have feet (fair enough) but gives me a reading anyway. How??? (I know Gameplay and Story Segregation but am thinking of an in-universe reason)
There are other ways to do what he does, but footprints are the easiest way. That's my best guess.
Well, yeah the Mirage Mewtwo was just a hologram. I was just making a joke. It's the third seperate Mewtwo appearance overall, even if it doesn't count as a pokemon. Fun fact though, one of the quotes in that special was "This may not be the Mewtwo you're all familiar with" said the scientist to Ash and Pikachu, suggesting that they remembered Team Rocket-Mewtwo at that point in the anime.
But as for the beginning of the Mega Evolution Special, while it is ambiguous to draw a solid conclusion, it's not unprecedented. They've hidden a ton of cameos in the openings, closings, and pre-movie clips (usually of the previous movie pokemon flying or swimming elsewhere, or game protagonists having an anime battle). Heck, an anime-opening is the only thing we have to go on about whatever happened to Ash's Butterfree. TR-Mewtwo appeared explicitly up until about Rise of Darkrai, but it's not that odd to bring him back for a quick cameo. And it appears that the Mega Evolution Speical and the regular anime are linked, given the Sycamore episode flashbacks.
I agree that it ain't much to go on, but it's all we got at the moment.
Edit*:I did go and edit my post a bit to make the Mega Evolution cameo less a "for sure" fact, though. I can see the problem with the original, because the cameo is kind of a long-shot instead of explicit.
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Ash forgot meeting the original Mewtwo though, or has Mewtwo appeared in another movie besides Genesect? So many movies, hard to keep track of.
It was the Mewtwo Returns Special where Ash met Mewtwo again and this time he didn't wipe Ash & co.'s memory:
The Mewtwo Returns Special noted above is both the first encounter with Mewtwo that Ash & Co. are allowed to remember.
The original just kind of ended on the ambiguous departure. The special then reveals Mewtwo and the others were hiding out somewhere in Johto (Mew appeared, but I'm not sure if it was supposed to be real or just a vision by Mewtwo). The movie ends with Mewtwo letting the clones go off to live on their own, and the last shot is Mewtwo on a Roff-Spire overlooking a city.
Here's something I wonder about: Does the anime establish how Newtwo is able to Mega Evolve? I realize this was before X&Y were officially released, but Newtwo basically seems to be able to change forms at will, compared to actual evolution requiring both the Stone and some kind of connection to a trainer or human. Rayquaza is the only immediate exception I can think of, but I could explain the bond thing as being more a camaraderie or trust thing than outright friendship.
Newtwo is at best indifferent to humans, so that criteria's out the window. What if part of the experiments performed on it compared to the original Mewtwo was a way to force the Mega Evolution upon it?
The more I look into this though, the more it seems like this movie would have worked with the original Mewtwo instead. Ash at least knows him for the human half of the Mega Evolution, and being part of the form change would give them something to do besides sit around and pretend to be important by bonding with one of the Genesect.