SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon

[JES]

Well, I know that if this were real life, if I were offered the job of taking on the Pokemon League's Champion, I'd be flattered, but ultimately turn it down, because that'd mean not being able to travel as much any more, and that means having less time to raise your Pokemon, not to mention new team members. Possibly one of my utmost favorite parts about this whole series is being able to explore.

And I think most ten year olds would choose being able to continue traveling, especially like Ash, to other regions, and continue catching and/or raising new Pokemon, to taking on the responsibility of League Champion, because it seems hinted that is quite a responsibility.

 

[BlackButterfree]

I think that the PC canonically always lets the previous Champion stay in that position. A regent Champion, like a regent Pharaoh, who would rule for the Pharaoh until they're of age. In fact, the oldest Player Characters are Calem and Serena at 16-17. Behind them are all four Unova PC's, who are each 14 during their respective games. All the others are 10. So... maybe the "former" Champion stays as Champion until the PC turns into an adult? After all, Alder is an elderly man and all the other Champions seem to be in their mid-20's (Lance, Wallace, Steven, Cynthia, Diantha) with Iris looking like she's... maybe 19 or so.

The only exception to this is Blue, who remains the regent Champion for Red/Leaf, despite being ten as well. Although that could be attributed to him having been the official Champion when you beat him, so maybe the regent Champion always has to be the former. And when Blue decided to become a Gym Leader, and Red left to train, the role of regent Champion falls on the strongest Elite 4 member, AKA Lance.

 

[Hulavuta]

That makes me wonder who was the champion before Blue? We never meet him or her during the story like with any of the other champions. Maybe Kanto never had a champion before that? I find that unlikely, since the region and Pokemon League system seemed to be around for a long time. People reference many events that happened in the past, like Saffron having two gyms for a long time before Sabrina's became the only official one.

 

[Detective Barricade]

That makes me wonder who was the champion before Blue? We never meet him or her during the story like with any of the other champions. Maybe Kanto never had a champion before that? I find that unlikely, since the region and Pokemon League system seemed to be around for a long time. People reference many events that happened in the past, like Saffron having two gyms for a long time before Sabrina's became the only official one.

Given what he says when you beat him in the Kanto games, I suspect the previous champion was Lance, who retakes the position three years later during the Johto games. Of course, that then leaves the question of who was the Elite Four member that got booted out when Lance was beaten, if he was indeed the champion before Blue.

 

[Hulavuta]

Given what he says when you beat him in the Kanto games, I suspect the previous champion was Lance, who retakes the position three years later during the Johto games. Of course, that then leaves the question of who was the Elite Four member that got booted out when Lance was beaten, if he was indeed the champion before Blue.

I've thought about it, but when I do I think there wasn't enough time for this to happen. You battle Blue before Victory Road, meaning that he could not have defeated the Elite Four any more than a few hours or so before you got there. What Professor Oak and Lance say also heavily imply that it just happened in the same day ("I came when I heard you'd beaten the Elite Four" "He beat the Elite Four before you"). I don't think any of the games suggest that when the champion loses, he or she is just "bumped" down a spot. So Lance would have had to have somehow gotten back the Elite Four spot, meaning that an Elite Four member had to retire or be removed (and to be clear we're not really sure of this process either). Was there really enough time for all this to go down?

My best theory would be that the champion recently retired or died around the start of the game, leaving a vacancy. It is believable that it wasn't filled over the period of time the game takes place in.

 

[Detective Barricade]

I've thought about it, but when I do I think there wasn't enough time for this to happen. You battle Blue before Victory Road, meaning that he could not have defeated the Elite Four any more than a few hours or so before you got there. What Professor Oak and Lance say also heavily imply that it just happened in the same day ("I came when I heard you'd beaten the Elite Four" "He beat the Elite Four before you"). I don't think any of the games suggest that when the champion loses, he or she is just "bumped" down a spot. So Lance would have had to have somehow gotten back the Elite Four spot, meaning that an Elite Four member had to retire or be removed (and to be clear we're not really sure of this process either). Was there really enough time for all this to go down?

My best theory would be that the champion recently retired or died around the start of the game, leaving a vacancy. It is believable that it wasn't filled over the period of time the game takes place in.

True, and Alder didn't really get bumped when defeated by N in B/W... The truth of the matter is we'll likely never know who was champion before Blue, since it's not of importance to the Kanto games' plot. (you'll never face him/her no matter how quickly you clear through the 8 gyms and the Elite Four, Blue always beats you to it)

 

[Lady Vader]

I don't think there was a champion originally considering Lance's statement after you beat him:
"I still can’t believe my dragons lost to you, RED! You’re now the Pokémon League champion! …Or, you would have been, but you have one more challenge ahead. You have to face another trainer! His name is… BLUE! He beat the Elite Four before you. He is the real Pokémon League champion!"

 

[Pikachu315111]

I generally agree with Hulavuta theory. Either:

1. The Elite Four was so powerful there was no previous Champion that when someone, in this case Blue, finally defeated them they were offered the Champion position.
2. There was a previous Champion who wanted to retire/go journeying but didn't want to leave the Champion spot empty so waited until the first person to beat him to hand the position over to, of course it being Blue.
3. A combination of the above two, there was a previous Champion but he died/retired leaving the Champion spot vacant and so the first trainer to then beat the Elite Four, Blue, was offered the Champion position.

Eitherway, being an egotist Blue accepted though maybe after a year (or even a few months, I don't think he was Champion for long) he wanted to start journeying again and with the only other qualified person, Red, also journeying then Lance probably instead challenged Blue for the title of Champion and won, letting Blue free to travel (until he was called back to temporarily run the Viridian Gym).

But once again this is all speculation, and remember this was the first game so not only was the plot simple but there was maybe some early installment weirdness.

Another mystery, but more on a meta sense:

Now that Deoxys is available in-game, does it no longer count as a Mythical Pokemon? For those who may not know, in recent times the Pokemon Company had given the Legendary Pokemon which could only be gotten through events the title of "Mythical" Pokemon. The list of Mythical Pokemon of Gen VI is Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, Deoxys, Darkrai, Manaphy, Shaymin, Arceus, Victini, Meloetta, Genesect, Diancie, Hoopa, and Volcanion. A Mythical Pokemon usually can only be acquired through special ways but never catchable in the game. However, ORAS has made Deoxys catchable, so the question is does Deoxys no longer count as a Mythical Pokemon? The main ORAS website says Deoxys is a "Legendary" Pokemon instead of "Mystical" as they called Diancie and Hoopa.

In my opinion I don't think we should remove its title as Mythical Pokemon because it was only made available in-game for one (set) of games. In addition in order to even "encounter" Deoxys we had to destroy a meteor in space so it's still technically not findable in Hoenn. All the normal Legendaries have been made catchable in more then one (set) of games, so I say we wait for it to be made catchable a second time before yanking its title of "Mythical" away.

 

[Norne]

I generally agree with Hulavuta theory. Either:

1. The Elite Four was so powerful there was no previous Champion that when someone, in this case Blue, finally defeated them they were offered the Champion position.
2. There was a previous Champion who wanted to retire/go journeying but didn't want to leave the Champion spot empty so waited until the first person to beat him to hand the position over to, of course it being Blue.
3. A combination of the above two, there was a previous Champion but he died/retired leaving the Champion spot vacant and so the first trainer to then beat the Elite Four, Blue, was offered the Champion position.

Eitherway, being an egotist Blue accepted though maybe after a year (or even a few months, I don't think he was Champion for long) he wanted to start journeying again and with the only other qualified person, Red, also journeying then Lance probably instead challenged Blue for the title of Champion and won, letting Blue free to travel (until he was called back to temporarily run the Viridian Gym).

But once again this is all speculation, and remember this was the first game so not only was the plot simple but there was maybe some early installment weirdness.

Another mystery, but more on a meta sense:

Now that Deoxys is available in-game, does it no longer count as a Mythical Pokemon? For those who may not know, in recent times the Pokemon Company had given the Legendary Pokemon which could only be gotten through events the title of "Mythical" Pokemon. The list of Mythical Pokemon of Gen VI is Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, Deoxys, Darkrai, Manaphy, Shaymin, Arceus, Victini, Meloetta, Genesect, Diancie, Hoopa, and Volcanion. A Mythical Pokemon usually can only be acquired through special ways but never catchable in the game. However, ORAS has made Deoxys catchable, so the question is does Deoxys no longer count as a Mythical Pokemon? The main ORAS website says Deoxys is a "Legendary" Pokemon instead of "Mystical" as they called Diancie and Hoopa.

In my opinion I don't think we should remove its title as Mythical Pokemon because it was only made available in-game for one (set) of games. In addition in order to even "encounter" Deoxys we had to destroy a meteor in space so it's still technically not findable in Hoenn. All the normal Legendaries have been made catchable in more then one (set) of games, so I say we wait for it to be made catchable a second time before yanking its title of "Mythical" away.

Is it in a game where you can restart it to get multiple copies of it without needing to download anything nor go to a event?

It's not a mythical pokemon anymore, also even tough you go trough the annoying cutscene hell for him and catch him in space he says sky pillar. So yep it's hoenn.

 

[JES]

People reference many events that happened in the past, like Saffron having two gyms for a long time before Sabrina's became the only official one.

I think that was probably that Fighting Dojo. Seeing as how most things seem to be settled by battles, there was probably a competition to see which Gym was superior and more worthy to be handing out badges in Saffron. Naturally, the Fighting Gym was at a disadvantage, and naturally lost the competition. Too bad that Scrafty was available in Kanto, eh?

And I disagree with Deoxys no longer being a Mythical Pokemon. If Deoxys was once a hard-to-obtain Pokemon, I still consider him a Mythical Pokemon. Game Freak just kindly made it easier for us to get him this time. It wouldn't surprise me if they were originally going to make the Delta Episode more of an event (you have to catch Rayquaza to trigger it, in addition to some trigger item), but then the development team thought "aw, the hell with it, lets just program the event to be unlocked". I kind of wish they did the same for Jirachi and Manaphy, seeing as how there hasn't been an event for any of those yet. Not a problem for me, but definitely a problem for the new-comers who need these to complete their 'Dexes.

Do we really want to go all Pluto on Deoxys anyways? Maybe they'll also make the events for Darkrai, Shaymin, and Arceus unlocked if they remake D/P. Would that make them no longer Mythical in your eyes?

 

[Hulavuta]

I think that was probably that Fighting Dojo. Seeing as how most things seem to be settled by battles, there was probably a competition to see which Gym was superior and more worthy to be handing out badges in Saffron. Naturally, the Fighting Gym was at a disadvantage, and naturally lost the competition. Too bad that Scrafty was available in Kanto, eh?

Oh, it was definitely the Fighting Dojo, I'm almost certain it was outright stated, including the duel (which is why I didn't feel the need to say it, I assumed everyone just knew what I was referring to).

Anyway, I'm not sure if the whole Deoxys situation counts as a mystery, it seems more as just a debate about semantics and definitions. If it's available in-game and the big P no longer classifies it as Mythical, then it really isn't. The difference is not really significant though, within the context of the Pokemon universe.

 

[Lady Vader]

I find debating the term "Mythical Pokémon" to be pointless. It's just a marketing term for Event-only Legendaries. It's not as defined as Legendary is.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Oh, it was definitely the Fighting Dojo, I'm almost certain it was outright stated, including the duel (which is why I didn't feel the need to say it, I assumed everyone just knew what I was referring to).

Anyway, I'm not sure if the whole Deoxys situation counts as a mystery, it seems more as just a debate about semantics and definitions. If it's available in-game and the big P no longer classifies it as Mythical, then it really isn't. The difference is not really significant though, within the context of the Pokemon universe.

Yup, the Fighting Dojo was originally the Saffron Gym who trained Fighting-types but then Sabrina moved in and claimed the title of Gym Leader and built her own Gym. Its leader (the guy you fought for the Hitmonlee/Hitmonchan) was name Kiyo, and as of Gen VI apparently he moved to Lumiose City and tried to open a Karate Dojo there... which many had mistaken for a dance studio (poor guy just can't catch a break). Though that makes me wonder what happened to the Fighting Dojo in Kanto. Also it must have been annoying for him to have Sabrina visit the Fighting Dojo when the player rechallenges her in HGSS.

Yeah, I guess it isn't exactly a mystery, just a random thought that came to mind and thought it might have made for an interesting discussion. I guess what I should have asked if whether they'll ever treat Deoxys like an Event Pokemon (needing to wait for an Event) or now that you can catch one in-game it may be catchable in future games? Like this is just a special bonus they thrown in which they probably won't do again (at least with Deoxys, I can see maybe them doing this for other Event Legendaries).

 

[rufus drumknott]

In a more Watsonian point of view, I would consider the difference between 'mythical' and 'legendary' Pokemon to be that legendaries are like extremely rare and powerful Pokemon and legendary usually describes their power or status (as in legendary, adjective: 2 remarkable enough to be famous; very well known); whereas 'mythical' Pokemon are like the Loch Ness monster: so elusive that nobody is really sure they exist. That's why you can catch legendary Pokemon in the games themselves whereas mythical Pokemon are traditionally distributed through events.

Going off this explanation, then Deoxys is still very much a mythical Pokemon. Nobody but the MC sees Deoxys while in space, and even if you don't catch it so that Deoxys lands on the Sky Pillar, normal people aren't allowed to go into the Sky Pillar and nobody who can (Wallace; I don't think you can meet Zinnia again after the Delta episode? Doesn't matter though) mention seeing Deoxys, so Deoxys would still remain very much a myth. Therefore, in-game, Deoxys is still a mythical Pokemon.

 

[KingHeracrossTheBug]

That makes me wonder who was the champion before Blue? We never meet him or her during the story like with any of the other champions. Maybe Kanto never had a champion before that? I find that unlikely, since the region and Pokemon League system seemed to be around for a long time. People reference many events that happened in the past, like Saffron having two gyms for a long time before Sabrina's became the only official one.

I think it's pretty much implied that Kanto did not have a champ, since when you beat Lance at the E4 he says that you would've been the Champion if you had arrived a little sooner (LGFR Spanish dub)

 

[Pikachu315111]

I think it's pretty much implied that Kanto did not have a champ, since when you beat Lance at the E4 he says that you would've been the Champion if you had arrived a little sooner (LGFR Spanish dub)

He also says it in the English version in both the original and remake:

RBY:

I still can’t believe my dragons lost to you, (PLAYER)! You’re now the Pokemon League champion! ...Or, you would have been, but you have one more challenge ahead. You have to face another trainer! His name is... (RIVAL)! He beat the Elite Four before you. He is the real Pokemon League champion!

FRLG:

I still can’t believe my dragons lost to you, (PLAYER). You are now the Pokémon League Champion! ...Or, you would have been, but you have one more challenge left. There is one more Trainer to face! His name is... (RIVAL)! He beat the Elite Four before you. He is the real Pokémon League Champion.

I'm assuming he says it in all versions. Remember how it usually works is that the English version is translated from the Japanese version and then everything else is translated from the English script (except maybe other Asian countries which probably also translates it from the Japanese script like China and Korea since I imagine it would be easier due to similarities between their languages).

 

[Hulavuta]

Yeah KingHeracrossTheBug and Pikachu315111 that's pretty much what I've been saying. It makes me wonder how the Pokemon League could have been around for so long with no champion (as I already stated, it's pretty clear it's been around for a long while). Hence my theory that it didn't, and the previous champion either retired or died shortly prior to the begininng of the games.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Yeah KingHeracrossTheBug and Pikachu315111 that's pretty much what I've been saying. It makes me wonder how the Pokemon League could have been around for so long with no champion (as I already stated, it's pretty clear it's been around for a long while). Hence my theory that it didn't, and the previous champion either retired or died shortly prior to the begininng of the games.

I think the main question should be can a League exist without a Champion for a long period of time? Obviously we don't know and I think we're going to start going around in circles. I was going to suggest another mystery but I can't really think of any unless we go ridiculous. Since my mystery is ridiculous, I'll put in spoilers, you don't need to answer if you don't want to:

Hide

Would religions (or certain religions) be dedicated to certain Legendary Pokemon? Are there even religions in Pokemon?

 

[KingHeracrossTheBug]

I think the main question should be can a League exist without a Champion for a long period of time? Obviously we don't know and I think we're going to start going around in circles. I was going to suggest another mystery but I can't really think of any unless we go ridiculous. Since my mystery is ridiculous, I'll put in spoilers, you don't need to answer if you don't want to:

Hide

Would religions (or certain religions) be dedicated to certain Legendary Pokemon? Are there even religions in Pokemon?

Maybe the Champ was supposed to be whoever beat the last E4 (a.k.a. Lance) but everyone was so weak no one could beat him so he was pretty much standing there, waiting for a Champ.

There's a church in Hearthome City, and people in Sinnoh seem to 'praise' the Lake Trio and Dialga/Palkia, but that's about it. We have people praising Ho-Oh and Lugia too in GS and remakes. Actually, the 2nd and 4th Generations were the only ones to show religion (or at least worship) in all their games

 

[Lady Vader]

Maybe the Champ was supposed to be whoever beat the last E4 (a.k.a. Lance) but everyone was so weak no one could beat him so he was pretty much standing there, waiting for a Champ.

There's a church in Hearthome City, and people in Sinnoh seem to 'praise' the Lake Trio and Dialga/Palkia, but that's about it. We have people praising Ho-Oh and Lugia too in GS and remakes. Actually, the 2nd and 4th Generations were the only ones to show religion (or at least worship) in all their games

That is an odd element that is rarely touched upon in the series, though it could be Game Freak (wisely) avoiding a topic that some people will jump down your throat about.

On a side note, I loved that area in Heartholme as it was the only place without music, which let my badges really shine through. Also, it let the Pokédex's cry function to be heard.

 

[KingHeracrossTheBug]

That is an odd element that is rarely touched upon in the series, though it could be Game Freak (wisely) avoiding a topic that some people will jump down your throat about.

On a side note, I loved that area in Heartholme as it was the only place without music, which let my badges really shine through. Also, it let the Pokédex's cry function to be heard.

That's true. Religion isn't a big deal in Japan, but GF are smarter than that and know that religion is a thing on the Western world

 

[JES]

If there were ever a single dominant Pokemon that people worshipped, it was probably our lord and savior Arceus. Heck, there are even memes for him in the Pokemon Community!
It is likely that as science took a front seat, the church and state were separated, just like in reality (or at least in the U.S. I don't know what church and state's relationship is in other countries for members from other countries), and religion became less and less of a dominant factor in people's lives.

And Game Freak probably has wisely avoided exploring the subject in any more detail than they have dared.

 

[Hulavuta]

I wouldn't be so sure about that explanation JES. The big difference here as compared to something like Greek mythology is that it's pretty clear these legendary Pokemon are real. Arceus is real and pretty clearly did create the universe, Dialga and Palkia are pretty clearly real and control Space and Time, Groudon and Kyogre made land and sea, and on and on. So there's pretty clear proof these gods exist and controlled elements of the universe, science doesn't change that. It wasn't something like "we don't know where lightning comes from, so we'll say Zeus is throwing it down from above the clouds, but as soon as we find out how lightning is really formed we'll just forget about him." We can clearly observe that Pokemon can create lightning, and we can observe that the other legendary Pokemon control certain elements of the planet and even the fabric of reality.

I think the best answer is that in the Pokemon universe, everyone is a deist. While these Pokemon are equivalent to gods in terms of power, you have to keep in mind that they are still animals. So while everyone certainly believes that they exist, there's nothing that they really demand. The "Arceus is our lord and savior" bit is a funny meme but in the Pokemon universe not entirely accurate. Keep in mind religion is not only based on the belief that God/gods exist, but also the belief that they have set forth certain rules and lifestyle choices and offer eternal salvation. In the Pokemon universe, although Pokemon have god-like powers, they do not act like gods in that sense. Arceus may have created the universe but he didn't set the Ten Commandments or promise Heaven for humans, or say that you have to eat Kosher or anything. So while everyone accepts that certain legendary Pokemon have god-like power, they've given humans no reason to actually worship them. If anything, people try to use their power to get that lawmaker position themselves and push their own agendas as a religion, like Cyrus.

 

[JES]

I wouldn't be so sure about that explanation JES. The big difference here as compared to something like Greek mythology is that it's pretty clear these legendary Pokemon are real. Arceus is real and pretty clearly did create the universe, Dialga and Palkia are pretty clearly real and control Space and Time, Groudon and Kyogre made land and sea, and on and on. So there's pretty clear proof these gods exist and controlled elements of the universe, science doesn't change that. It wasn't something like "we don't know where lightning comes from, so we'll say Zeus is throwing it down from above the clouds, but as soon as we find out how lightning is really formed we'll just forget about him." We can clearly observe that Pokemon can create lightning, and we can observe that the other legendary Pokemon control certain elements of the planet and even the fabric of reality.

I think the best answer is that in the Pokemon universe, everyone is a deist. While these Pokemon are equivalent to gods in terms of power, you have to keep in mind that they are still animals. So while everyone certainly believes that they exist, there's nothing that they really demand. The "Arceus is our lord and savior" bit is a funny meme but in the Pokemon universe not entirely accurate. Keep in mind religion is not only based on the belief that God/gods exist, but also the belief that they have set forth certain rules and lifestyle choices and offer eternal salvation. In the Pokemon universe, although Pokemon have god-like powers, they do not act like gods in that sense. Arceus may have created the universe but he didn't set the Ten Commandments or promise Heaven for humans, or say that you have to eat Kosher or anything. So while everyone accepts that certain legendary Pokemon have god-like power, they've given humans no reason to actually worship them. If anything, people try to use their power to get that lawmaker position themselves and push their own agendas as a religion, like Cyrus.

Fair enough point.

 

[noobcubed]

Actually, on religion, Nintendo has a very strict policy against allowing religious motifs in their games. I hear it's why The Binding of Isaac never got ported to Nintendo systems, for example.

On PokeGods, to argue against Hulavuta - you are looking at the concept of God from a Christian (or at least Abrahamic) viewpoint. Many cultures acrross the millennia have believed in Gods that don't intervene much, don't care about humans or are even actively sadistic - beyond being creators (which PokeGods are too and is their principle feature, lorewise) there is little that unites varying cultures' Gods.

Read the Odyssey, for example. The Gods in that book watch over Odysseus as though they were watching a film. They rarely help him, and when they do intervene it is mostly out of oneupmanship against another God.