Announcement NatDex OU Suspect Test 1: The Bigger the Better [DYNAMAX BANNED]

[Baltimore Beedrills]

I dont think its unreasonable at all to want a seperate dmax metagame, what is unreasonable is the constant assertion that there's just NO WAY we could possibly know for sure that dmax is broken yet being used as an actual argument. Thats what I was addressing. Shit's wrong and frustrating.

I'm not sure if there's an actual argument for Dynamax not being broken. That said, even if something did exist, we have to consider all of the arguments considering why Dynamax is broken. The number of reasons that show how busted the mechanic is will undeniably outweigh the number of reasons for why it should stay. Let's take a look at the reasons for why Dynamax is unhealthy:

- Double HP boost can allow survival against not just x2 but possibly x4 effective moves
-Ridiculous >100 BP moves (yes, there are a couple of exceptions) with secondary stat-boosting/weather/terrain effects
-Moves go through Protect, and attacking Sub still grants the boost
-Cannot be flinched
-Cannot be forcibly switched out (unless you're Wolfey and used that eject button Grimmsnarl, and to be frank I think that only works in VGC)
-Cannot be Destiny-bonded (what the actual fuck)

Add to the fact that Ditto has at least a 33% usage in OU and it's a definite problem. To put that into perspective, Xerneas saw that much usage in XY Ubers, so yeah, go figure. Now let's consider the reasons for why Dynamax might not be broken:

-Breaks stall (shitty as this argument may be, I like it)
-Both sides get to Dynamax
-Only some mons are actually broken with this mechanic and THEY should be banned

These three arguments are the most common arguments I've seen for Dynamax, and even then these have holes in them. Dynamax may be for both players but it creates a risky 50/50 scenario. This is because we don't know who will Dynamax or when something will Dynamax, demonstrating that this can really screw around with predictions. In addition, it's true that some mons happen to be very good Dynamax abusers, but banning them is gonna rip a chunk out of the OU tier. And when those guys get banned, new Dynamax abusers will take the stage, and it's highly possible that those guys will get banned if enough complaints are sent, so technically you're back on square one by doing so. Being able to smash in Chansey's face is a weak yet probably the most legit argument (although I don't personally mind), but it's still outweighed by the negatives.

 

[Guard]

-

I fully understand your concern in Dynamax inevitably getting banned in one of the very few singles tiers it is still playable on. However, I believe it is fairly rude to assume that we as a tier are just following OU's policy in this. National Dex OU has its own council and policy. We are in no way expected to follow OU, except for very obvious universal policy decisions, such as Moody/STag/Sleep clause. It is also somewhat unfair to base your sentiment on the discussion in this thread, since the content here hasn't really been very on-point from what I've seen and doesn't per se come from high-ladder players solely.

As a high-ladder player myself, I can assure you that Dynamax is very broken in this tier, perhaps even more so than it was in regular OU. That is a notion all of us, whether that be high-ladder players or low-ladder players, agree upon and I am sure you would agree too, were you to actually play this format.

 

[Bold School]

I fully understand your concern in Dynamax inevitably getting banned in one of the very few singles tiers it is still playable on. However, I believe it is fairly rude to assume that we as a tier are just following OU's policy in this. National Dex OU has its own council and policy. We are in no way expected to follow OU, except for very obvious universal policy decisions, such as Moody/STag/Sleep clause.

"Format influenced by OU Suspect"

This was the first thing I saw when I clicked on this thread. I do think it was fair to believe this suspect was influenced by that decision on some level because you guys even reference that very suspect test. To be clear, I am not saying that you aren't making your own decisions or acting independently on any level. I apologize if I gave that impression. For the record, I was more trying to talk to potential voters in this thread than I was specifically the people in charge of this metagame/tier. (Although, my personal opinion is that I was surprised the suspect came now.)

I do think the general mind set here has been influenced by what happened there and this concerns me. I'm just not seeing a lot of people who even seem to want to give Dynamax a chance here. The general vibes I get right now appear overly dismissive to me. So I voiced my concerns. Have we really turned over every leaf on this first? Have we really approached the mindset of this tier as its own separate thing? I could be wrong, but this isn't the sense I'm getting here.

It is also somewhat unfair to base your sentiment on the discussion in this thread, since the content here hasn't really been very on-point from what I've seen and doesn't per se come from high-ladder players.

Well, thank you for being honest about the discussion here. However, I still find that to be problematic. Shouldn't there be in depth discussion about such an important decision? Did everything related to said discussion happen elsewhere and this is just a formality? And if that elsewhere was the regular OU suspect thread, I'm going to continue to be skeptical.

Whatever the case, I think there hasn't really been a healthy counterplay discussion here in this thread where it actually matters. If there was then I'm not sure I would have even bothered to post yet.

As a high-ladder player myself, I can assure you that Dynamax is very broken in this tier, perhaps even more so than it was in regular OU. That is a notion all of us, whether that be high-ladder players or low-ladder players, agree upon and I am sure you would agree too, were you to actually play this format.

I am going to play this format. I already said this. What conclusion I make remains to be seen. Please don't presume to know how I'll feel about it. One thing I won't do is form a peer pressure based opinion just because everyone else allegedly thinks a certain way. I think for myself.

 

[Sputnik]

Well, thank you for being honest about the discussion here. However, I still find that to be problematic. Shouldn't there be in depth discussion about such an important decision? Did everything related to said discussion happen elsewhere and this is just a formality? And if that elsewhere was the regular OU suspect thread, I'm going to continue to be skeptical.

Whatever the case, I think there hasn't really been a healthy counterplay discussion here in this thread where it actually matters. If there was then I'm not sure I would have even bothered to post yet.

I mean there has been quite a bit of discussion on the topic, but a lot of it hasn't been here, and I agree that some of the arguments from both sides have been a bit...lackadaisical.

But I can assure you that a lot of good, healthy discussion on the topic has occurred, in the Nat Dex room and other forum posts, as well as proof in the fact that most of the best players in the tier are stating that it is indeed broken and abusing it to the fullest (although the fact that some of this has devolved into hapless yelling back and forth isn't a good look, I'll admit).

And I once again can assure you that dynamaxing has been given more than its fair share of chances, but the unpredictability and sheer strength of the abusers has led to a large constituency of players (myself included) to conclude that it's banworthy.

 

[Guard]

"Format influenced by OU Suspect"

This means nothing else than the lay-out of the OP

I do think it was fair to believe this suspect was influenced by that decision on some level because you guys even reference that very suspect test.

We do, the reason being to compare Dynamax in regular OU to Dynamax in Nat Dex OU. We hypothesized that Dynamax would be less broken in this format due to a lesser degree in unpredictability, which, while being somewhat true, is far from the whole picture. There is a plethora of Pokemon that make overbearingly excellent use of Dynamax here (Kartana, Salamence, Lando-T, Weakness Policy variants of Zygarde, Magearna and Dragonite), to the point where non-Ditto Stall, Balance and Bulky Offense are borderline unviable. To be frank, any metagame with very high Ditto usage is a broken metagame and therefore not in line with Smogon policy. The cause of high-ditto usage here is clearly due to the volatility that is the product of Dynamax. Therefore, Dynamax needs to go, if we want to strive for healthy development.

(Although, my personal opinion is that I was surprised the suspect came now.)

This is insinuating a mistrust on the council (and skilled playerbase), contrary to what you allude to in the previous sentence.

I do think the general mind set here has been influenced by what happened there and this concerns me. I'm just not seeing a lot of people who even seem to want to give Dynamax a chance here. The general vibes I get right now appear overly dismissive to me. So I voiced my concerns. Have we really turned over every leaf on this first? Have we really approached the mindset of this tier as its own separate thing? I could be wrong, but this isn't the sense I'm getting here.

Shouldn't there be in depth discussion about such an important decision? Did everything related to said discussion happen elsewhere and this is just a formality? And if that elsewhere was the regular OU suspect thread, I'm going to continue to be skeptical.

This is because the horse that grazes in Dynamax-land has been beaten to death, reincarnated several times, and beaten to death again. Dynamax has been banned in OU and LC already and is being suspected in NFE. Every pro-ban argument given there still stands here, where Dynamax has more severe consequences (bar LC). There really isn't much else to add.

I am going to play this format. I already said this. What conclusion I make remains to be seen. Please don't presume to know how I'll feel about it. One thing I won't do is form a peer pressure based opinion just because everyone else allegedly thinks a certain way. I think for myself.

Imo you would have to be insane in order to defend such a blatantly restricting mechanic. I am merely assuming you are sane, not whether you are susceptible to peer pressure or not.

 

[Cabneet]

No. That's not what I'm saying. I'm not making any definitive statement on if it is broken or not like you are. I'm not even saying it can't be broken. For the record, I think banning Dynamax from regular OU was ultimately the right decision. That's a different metagame. In theory, there should be a lot more options to go through in Nat Dex and I'm not really seeing much discussion about any of that. So I'm concerned if this is being done for the right reasons.



You don't sound like you hate to break anything here. For clarity, how much of this sample size is from this metagame specifically? If you are just trying to snowball the same conclusions from other tiers, then you are proving my point. That's for the wrong reasons. If you truly have exhausted all the counterplay options available in THIS metagame then that's a different story. Needless to say, I'm a bit skeptical on that based on the discussion so far. One way or another, I'll revisit this topic soon when I have more information.



I had no idea a pokemon game would cause you so much "suffering." Clearly you don't like the mechanic. That's ok. But you shouldn't force your bias onto others who may feel differently.

I also said nothing about any timetable whatsoever. All I said was we should examine every alternative before we yeet it from the last real tier that it is left in. How long would that take? I don't know. I highly doubt it would take a year. It seems to me like it might take just a little longer than two weeks, though. This is why I was surprised this was happening here quite so soon. And before you distort my point again, no, I'm not saying anything definitive on outcome or timetable.



Nothing I actually said seems clear to you. Your recent posts are overly emotional and full of straw man arguments. Like verlis fans? Really? It just further proves my point that I think some people are doing this out of preconceived bias instead of objectively looking at it for this tier. The reason why I said generation defining mechanic is because it is an important decision. Not because that means you can't ban it. I never even said that. I just said you better be sure and have explored every option first. And that is because this is the last place it hasn't been banned from. Let me ask you a question:

Why does this tier exist? Why does the National Dex metagame exist?

There are no Z moves or Mega Evolutions in gen 8. Almost all of the pokemon not in gen 8 are in gen 7. Technically, you could get nearly everything you want from gen 7 OU right now without having to deal with Dynamax. Unlike with Anything Goes, that actually is a fairly reasonable alternative for those who want to play excluded pokemon, Z moves, and/or Mega Evolutions with no Dynamax. It already exists, too. Technically, I could tell you to go play gen 7 OU and then you wouldn't have to "suffer" so much.

Can you at least admit the magnitude of banning Dynamax from the last real tier that actually allows it? Again, I'm not even saying you can't do it. I'm just saying you need to be careful about it and do it for the right reasons because it is a big deal.



Who exactly made this point? I don't think you are responding to what you think you were responding to.

To answer your very long post very shortly; yes, the vast, VAST majority of players are VERY damn sure that it is broken to the point of being unsalvageable. This is pretty clear just from quick glances at any discussion on the matter, and the reasons for which are right out in the open for you to see (or ignore). Its also really not nearly as "big of a deal" as you are making it out to be. We all knew this shit would be big busted long before the game came out. This should not be a surprise.
And your whole argument that it should get special treatment just for posterity? That's literally what AG is for. Sorry you dont like AG, but that's literally where it belongs. Playing AG is more accurate to cartridge anyway. You are asking more for a custom mode tailored to your own personal preferences than what is best for everyone.
Oh, and yes my comment about verlis fans was abrasive, but you well understood the connection didnt you? Hmmst.

 

[Bold School]

We do, the reason being to compare Dynamax in regular OU to Dynamax in Nat Dex OU. We hypothesized that Dynamax would be less broken in this format due to a lesser degree in unpredictability, which, while being somewhat true, is far from the whole picture. There is a plethora of Pokemon that make overbearingly excellent use of Dynamax here (Kartana, Salamence, Lando-T, Weakness Policy variants of Zygarde, Magearna and Dragonite), to the point where non-Ditto Stall, Balance and Bulky Offense are borderline unviable. To be frank, any metagame with very high Ditto usage is a broken metagame and therefore not in line with Smogon policy. The cause of high-ditto usage here is clearly due to the volatility that is the product of Dynamax. Therefore, Dynamax needs to go, if we want to strive for healthy development.

Well, I'm glad that you at least admit that it is somewhat true that Dynamax is less broken is this format. That's a good starting point. It shows that there are indeed some differences in this tier. My issue comes from the fact that it seems most of the points on meta specific things are about all the new abusers in this metagame and not really much about options on the other side.

I'm also a little bit tired of the Ditto argument. It's not that so much Ditto represents a healthy metagame. I agree it doesn't. However, it seems more to me like people are using it as a go to solution because it worked in regular OU and not thinking about it too hard. Let me ask you this: Is Ditto going to be all that much less viable if Dynamax is banned? I say not at all. You still have a ton of stat boosting type builds Ditto can feed off of. Arguably, you have a lot more here than in regular OU. You have Speed Boost pokemon like Sharpedo, more Dragan Dance abusers, Volcorona, Magearna, Beast Boost, and Z move stat buffs like Z Conversion. I would contend that Ditto would be extremely impactful even without Dynamax.

This is insinuating a mistrust on the council (and skilled playerbase), contrary to what you allude to in the previous sentence.

I said it was earlier than I expected because I felt it would take longer for this meta game to be fully fleshed out and explored due reasons like its increased complexity and options. Those were just my personal expectations. I'm not saying those expectations are wrong or right. However, I do think it's relevant that I state my surprise here on the timing of this.

This is because the horse that grazes in Dynamax-land has been beaten to death, reincarnated several times, and beaten to death again. Dynamax has been banned in OU and LC already and is being suspected in NFE. Every pro-ban argument given there still stands here, where Dynamax has more severe consequences (bar LC). There really isn't much else to add.

This entire sentiment is troubling to me. You have an entirely new metagame with way more options available than in regular gen 8. You have a larger pokemon pool, Z moves, and Mega evolutions. This metagame has dynamics that the other gen 8 metagames just don't have. What do you mean there is nothing add here? Have you really examined national dex specific counterplay as thoroughly as should be warranted? If so, why aren't we talking about that in detail in this thread where we would vote on banning it?

Alright. Go ahead. Form your opinion. However, know this: you would have to be worse than insane in order to defend such a blatantly restricting mechanic. I am merely assuming you are somewhat sane, not whether you are susceptible to peer pressure or not.

I also find the connotation that you can't be sane and vote to keep Dynamax to be troubling. It's like the prevailing attitude is we are automatically crazy for disagreeing, if we even decide to do so. It's close minded and just generally hostile to the concept of Dynamax. It's stuff like this that starts to shake my ability in people here to objectively analyse it.

 

[Cabneet]

Well, I'm glad that you at least admit that it is somewhat true that Dynamax is less broken is this format. That's a good starting point. It shows that there are indeed some differences in this tier. My issue comes from the fact that it seems most of the points on meta specific things are about all the new abusers in this metagame and not really much about options on the other side.

I'm also a little bit tired of the Ditto argument. It's not that so much Ditto represents a healthy metagame. I agree it doesn't. However, it seems more to me like people are using it as a go to solution because it worked in regular OU and not thinking about it too hard. Let me ask you this: Is Ditto going to be all that much less viable if Dynamax is banned? I say not at all. You still have a ton of stat boosting type builds Ditto can feed off of. Arguably, you have a lot more here than in regular OU. You have Speed Boost pokemon like Sharpedo, more Dragan Dance abusers, Volcorona, Magearna, Beast Boost, and Z move stat buffs like Z Conversion. I would contend that Ditto would be extremely impactful even without Dynamax.



I said it was earlier than I expected because I felt it would take longer for this meta game to be fully fleshed out and explored due reasons like its increased complexity and options. Those were just my personal expectations. I'm not saying those expectations are wrong or right. However, I do think it's relevant that I state my surprise here on the timing of this.



This entire sentiment is troubling to me. You have an entirely new metagame with way more options available than in regular gen 8. You have a larger pokemon pool, Z moves, and Mega evolutions. This metagame has dynamics that the other gen 8 metagames just don't have. What do you mean there is nothing add here? Have you really examined national dex specific counterplay as thoroughly as should be warranted? If so, why aren't we talking about that in detail in this thread where we would vote on banning it?



I also find the connotation that you can't be sane and vote to keep Dynamax to be troubling. It's like the prevailing attitude is we are automatically crazy for disagreeing, if we even decide to do so. It's close minded and just generally hostile to the concept of Dynamax. It's stuff like this that starts to shake my ability in people here to objectively analyse it.

They literally said its MORE broken in natdex what are you saying. They said it was HYPOTHESIZED that it would be less broken, but that this is far from the case.
Why are you so adamant to get people to admit that it's less broken in natdex when it's really not?
Also wanna know why people are dismissive towards your arguments? Because they have been BEATEN TO DEATH OVER AND OVER. It's already been explained why megas and z moves dont make dmax less obscene in a meta with such strong abusers, but you ignore that just to repeat the same points again. Shit is infuriating.

 

[Funbot28]

Enough, we can discuss Dynamaxing without personal attacks on users / unnecessary comments that do not push forward the discussion in a postive manner. Anymore posts that do not follow these guidelines will be deleted and infracted.

 

[Bold School]

To answer your very long post very shortly; yes, the vast, VAST majority of players are VERY damn sure that it is broken to the point of being unsalvageable. This is pretty clear just from quick glances at any discussion on the matter, and the reasons for which are right out in the open for you to see (or ignore).

Yes, I keep hearing about the majority of players wanting to ban it. But I haven't heard about how they came to those conclusions and what options they explored or didn't explore. I'm still waiting on that. I'm still wondering where most of that conversation is and why no one else here deems it necessary.

Its also really not nearly as "big of a deal" as you are making it out to be. We all knew this shit would be big busted long before the game came out. This should not be a surprise.

Well if you make up your mind before the metagame even starts, then how can I expect you to have given it a fair look without confirmation bias? Aren't you just making my point for me that some of you guys prematurely decided ahead of time what the outcome should be? Seems like classic confirmation bias to me, which is what I'm afraid of here.

And your whole argument that it should get special treatment just for posterity? That's literally what AG is for. Sorry you dont like AG, but that's literally where it belongs. Playing AG is more accurate to cartridge anyway. You are asking more for a custom mode tailored to your own personal preferences than what is best for everyone.

Straw man again. I never said that. I also didn't say that this tier should be made to my own personnel preferences so I don't know where you got that from. What I said was that it was a big decision and it should be examined very thoroughly. I don't see why that is such a bad thing. You don't seem to want us to even consider Dynamax. Not everyone has to agree with that.

AG isn't really close to the same game for reasons I already stated. Whether I like it or not is irrelevant to that point. It's simply not a viable alternative. Ironically, gen 7 OU is a viable alternative to National Dex if you wanted to avoid Dynamax. Please don't take that out of context, too.

Before, I asked you why this metagame existed, particuarly when you could get most of this in Gen 7 OU. You ignored my question only to make more straw man arguments. However, the point of all that was because this very tier was made for people who wanted something that didn't exist in the regular gen 8 metagame. That's what this tier is about, right? So it's really hypocritical to criticize me for allegedly saying I want a custom mode tailored to my preferences (even though I never said that) when that is basically what National Dex metagame started as.

He literally said its MORE broken in natdex what are you saying

No, he said you could make the case it was more broken based on all the new abusers. He also said,"We hypothesized that Dynamax would be less broken in this format due to a lesser degree in unpredictability, which, while being somewhat true, is far from the whole picture." There are two sides to this. But as usual, you just seem to see what you want to see.

 

[Solaros & Lunaris]

Ok so...it is unlikely that I’ll be getting reqs, even though I’ve tried. My thoughts are gonna sound kinda all over the place, so apologies for that. Even so, I wanted to write this post so it was undeniably clear Dynamax is a broken mechanic and should be banned. I’ve felt like I’ve seen brainless mons before, but I would never think GF would introduce a mechanic that said “go big and if you don’t get go fuck yourself”. I’ve never seen metagames like this where offensive teams just get so much leeway in how much damage they do, while defensive squads literally get almost nothing except....a Ditto. With Dynamax on their side, way too many Pokemon simply become obscene. Kartana is nigh uncounterable when Dynamaxed, and even if it goes down (which is a remarkable task considering it’s bulk, power and speed) it has likely taken three of your mons and crippled a fourth. Dynamax Magearna is similar in that its crazy breaking prowess and bulk is augmented by a Special Attack boost for every kill. And don’t even get me started on the unkillable monster that is Max Quake Zygarde, which eventually accumulates enough SpDef to start 1v1ing its counters. And that’s the tip of the iceberg. One of the recent discussions in the NatDex room was on Dynamax Protean Greninja, which could abuse HP Flying, Gunk Shot and Hydro Pump to be a near-unstoppable force of nature, accumulating Speed and SpA boosts like nobody’s business. If Dynamax is to be kept in the tier, what else lies in the realm of unstoppable sweeper? This mechanic is clearly not competitive on both ends of the spectrum. If I am going to win through Dynamax or lose to it, I don’t feel better about my playing skill, because I didn’t need to predict a move or put myself into a position of winning. I just needed to click a move and watch one, two, three mons die. We really shouldn’t strive for a metagame where the best strategy is “Dynamax and wipe out everything”.

 

[Cabneet]

Yes, I keep hearing about the majority of players wanting to ban it. But I haven't heard about how they came to those conclusions and what options they explored or didn't explore. I'm still waiting on that. I'm still wondering where most of that conversation is and why no one else here deems it necessary.

How can one possibly respond to this politely without hyper-patronization? What else is there to say besides "please pay attention and read the thread people are literally doing just that in this very thread and you are ignoring it"?

Well if you make up your mind before the metagame even starts, then how can I expect you to have given it a fair look without confirmation bias? Aren't you just making my point for me that some of you guys prematurely decided ahead of time what the outcome should be? Seems like classic confirmation bias to me, which is what I'm afraid of here.

Just because you didnt properly extrapolate the consequences of announced mechanics without having to fiddle with them for hours doesnt mean myself and many others couldn't. Which isnt to say even though I knew it would be busted I wasnt willing to give it a chance. I did. It failed.

Straw man again

You keep using this phrase. I do not think you know what it means.

I never said that. I also didn't say that this tier should be made to my own personnel preferences so I don't know where you got that from. What I said was that it was a big decision and it should be examined very thoroughly. I don't see why that is such a bad thing. You don't seem to want us to even consider Dynamax. Not everyone has to agree with that.

The point of a suspect is to consider whether or not the mechanic stays or goes. You keep trying to take the position of somebody who is unbiased but statements like this one really seem to tell me you are just unhappy that signs are pointing very very strongly towards it getting banned almost unanimously.

AG isn't really close to the same game for reasons I already stated. Whether I like it or not is irrelevant to that point. It's simply not a viable alternative.

Why is AG not a viable alternative? The only reason I can think of is because you personally don't like it, because it most certainly IS a viable and competative alternative. It just lacks diversity at the highest level, but that is what happens when you allow uncompetitive mechanics like dynamax. The meta is less diverse. Hell, I've had loads of fun with AG in the past. Now AG has something special going for it besides evasion memes and mega ray.

Ironically, gen 7 OU is a viable alternative to National Dex if you wanted to avoid Dynamax. Please don't take that out of context, too.

Don't worry, I won't, because quite frankly I dont see what kind of point you are even trying to make here. I'm not playing natdex to avoid dynamax. This is just silly.

Before, I asked you why this metagame existed, particuarly when you could get most of this in Gen 7 OU. You ignored my question only to make more straw man arguments. However, the point of all that was because this very tier was made for people who wanted something that didn't exist in the regular gen 8 metagame. That's what this tier is about, right? So it's really hypocritical to criticize me for allegedly saying I want a custom mode tailored to my preferences (even though I never said that) when that is basically what National Dex metagame started as.

I ignored it because it's an irrelevant question with no real answer anyway. What matters is where the meta goes from here.

No, he said you could make the case it was more broken based on all the new abusers. He also said,"We hypothesized that Dynamax would be less broken in this format due to a lesser degree in unpredictability, which, while being somewhat true, is far from the whole picture." There are two sides to this. But as usual, you just seem to see what you want to see.

And you took that as admitting that it's less broken? Because that's very clearly not what was meant. "Somewhat true but far from the whole picture" is seriously a supportive statement to you? And you are saying that *I* have a confirmation bias?

 

[Bold School]

Snip

I'm going to cut this down because it is beginning to detract from the thread. I just want to highlight a few general points so that this conversation can get back on track.

1. My main concern is counterplay options. I keep hearing there is no counterplay, but I haven't seen much discussion here on the exploration of counterplay options or even potential counterplay options. This is my #1 biggest hangup right now. By all means, point me to that conversation.

2. The result here isn't as important to me as the process. If it is thorough and people vote yes or no for the right reasons, I'll take any result. As I have stated before, I believe the Dynamax ban in regular OU was ultimately the correct decision and done for the right reasons. My concerns with the process and general mindsets on this, particularly from a voter perspective, have been stated in my other posts. I could be wrong. I just haven't seen much in this particular thread to assuage my concerns on this.

3. AG is not a viable alternative to any sort of regulated tier. Please stop trying to insist it is. AG has things like 1HKOs and Uber legendaries. The dynamics of a metagame where such things exist create a totally different dynamic. This is the third time I have tried to explain this. At the point of any mechanic or pokemon being banned to AG, it's basically banned from the entirety of Smogon. You couldn't have a game where you Dynamax any normal pokemon because it would be noncompetitive. It would just be dynamaxing Uber Legendaries or worse, which may be fun for some people, but isn't really close to the same thing.

I'm not playing natdex to avoid dynamax.

So hypothetically, if we voted to keep Dynamax in Nat Dex OU, you would play Nat Dex and not Gen 7 OU instead? I'm not saying we will or won't ban Dynamax. I just get the sense you are simply saying that because you are banking on Dynamax being banned. So would it be different to you if it wasn't banned? If Dynamax was actually kept and I told you gen 7 was a viable alternative, would you agree with me or would you tell me to go pound sand?

And you took that as admitting that it's less broken? Because that's very clearly not what was meant. "Somewhat true but far from the whole picture" is seriously a supportive statement to you? And you are saying that *I* have a confirmation bias?

I saw it as a middle ground statement. He admitted it was somewhat true. He also said it wasn't the whole story. Saying it is somewhat true that Dynamax is less OP in the tier does not necesarrily mean that it isn't still definitively OP in their opinion. It is simply a slight concession that, yes, things are a bit different in this metagame at least on a small level. This is why I was happy he said it.

From there, I was hoping to talk about the differences between this metagame and others, but that part of the conversation never really materialized.

 

[Cabneet]

1. My main concern is counterplay options. I keep hearing there is no counterplay, but I haven't seen much discussion here on the exploration of counterplay options or even potential counterplay options. This is my #1 biggest hangup right now. By all means, point me to that conversation.

Every post before this conversation was that conversation. There aren't many suggestions for counterplay because there isn't much counterplay. Wow.

2.The result here isn't as important to me as the process.

If it is thorough and people vote yes or no for the right reasons, I'll take any result. As I have stated before, I believe the Dynamax ban in regular OU was ultimately the correct decision and done for the right reasons. My concerns with the process and general mindsets on this, particularly from a voter perspective, have been stated in my other posts. I could be wrong. I just haven't seen much in this particular thread to assuage my concerns on this.

It's a vote. People are voting. So, the process is wrong because it's a landslide? And you wonder why I think you are just upset with the results.

3.

AG is not a viable alternative to any sort of regulated tier. Please stop trying to insist it is. AG has things like 1HKOs and Uber legendaries. The dynamics of a metagame where such things exist create a totally different dynamic. This is the third time I have tried to explain this. At the point of any mechanic or pokemon being banned to AG, it's basically banned from the entirety of Smogon. You couldn't have a game where you Dynamax any normal pokemon because it would be noncompetitive. It would just be dynamaxing Uber Legendaries or worse, which may be fun for some people, but isn't really close to the same thing.

This whole post is very much just your opinion, especially implying that a meta with uber legends isn't competative. Many, many people unironically ladder AG for non-meme reasons and you are basically saying they aren't legitimate.

So hypothetically, if we voted to keep Dynamax in Nat Dex OU, you would play Nat Dex and not Gen 7 OU instead? I'm not saying we will or won't ban Dynamax. I just get the sense you are simply saying that because you are banking on Dynamax being banned. So would it be different to you if it wasn't banned? If Dynamax was actually kept and I told you gen 7 was a viable alternative, would you agree with me or would you tell me to go pound sand?

It is completely irrelevant. I knew from the first few games I played that dynamax wasnt going to stick around in natdex. Even when discussing balance before the suspect dynamax was hardly a thought in my mind because I knew it would get banned in short order and any thought out tactics would then be outdated. You see it as confirmation bias. I see it as simply *gasp* being correct about something.

I saw it as a middle ground statement. He admitted it was somewhat true. He also said it wasn't the whole story. Saying it is somewhat true that Dynamax is less OP in the tier does not necesarrily mean that it isn't still definitively OP in their opinion. It is simply a slight concession that, yes, things are a bit different in this metagame at least on a small level. This is why I was happy he said it.

From there, I was hoping to talk about the differences between this metagame and others, but that part of the conversation never really materialized.

I wonder why?

Also I see now why smogon hates caps/bold/italics abuse so much, because all that bold made formatting this post a pain in the ass when on mobile. I fixed it enough to not be a complete mess but enjoy that ugly sight.

 

[Bold School]

Every post before this conversation was that conversation. There aren't many suggestions for counterplay because there isn't much counterplay. Wow.

Not really. Let me spell it out for you. For example, if yawn is a potential counterplay, why don't we discuss why yawn does or doesn't work? Etc. Instead, all I hear are vague things about how there is no counterplay or it is extremely limited. I don't see much talk about the specific examples. I don't see much talk about examining all the options in real detail.

These aren't exactly in depth topics in this particular thread. Other people on here have even stated that the conversations here on both sides weren't exactly the best. People have tried to tell me better conversation for it exist, but I don't see them here because they aren't here. What is here isn't what I'm looking for.

It's a vote. People are voting. So, the process is wrong because it's a landslide? And you wonder why I think you are just upset with the results.

Another straw man argument about something I didn't say. The process is wrong if it hasn't had proper and in depth consideration related to this specific tier. It has nothing to do with landslide votes.

And so you don't get confused:

straw man
/ˌstrô ˈman/
noun

1. 1.
   an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

I'll ask you again to please stop misrepresenting my points.

This whole post is very much just your opinion, especially implying that a meta with uber legends isn't competative. Many, many people unironically ladder AG for non-member reason and you are basically saying they aren't legitimate.

Straw man. I didn't say those people aren't legitimate at all. What I actually said was that AG isn't a viable alternative for a Dynamax metagame. It's not my opinion that AG isn't really regulated like other tiers because the fact is it's not. It's more or less anarchy where the games become entirely different. I'm not saying this can't be fun or fulfilling for some people but it's really not debatable that AG is its own separate thing that doesn't play like the regulated tiers. This is fact, not opinion, and I won't address this with you again.

It is completely irrelevant. I knew from the first few games I played that dynamax wasnt going to stick around in natdex. Even when discussing balance before the suspect dynamax was hardly a thought in my mind because I knew it would get banned in short order and any thought out tactics would then be outdated.

It's 100% relevant because it is hypocritical to tell someone to go at AG (or support that position) and refuse to consider my point about gen 7 OU. Don't you understand that it's the same kind of argument? At least while you tried to dodge my question yet again, you admitted that you were always banking on Dynamax being banned.

I guess it is easier not to care when you figure it won't effect you. And yet when someone talks about potentially banning Dynamax, you ask how "long you have to suffer" though it. You aren't willing to go to gen 7 OU yourself, but you are perfectly willing to tell other people to go to the drastically different AG tier. If you still don't see the blatant double standard then I don't know what else to tell you.

You see it as confirmation bias. I see it as simply *gasp* being correct about something.

You can call it whatever you like. Your actual position isn't important so much as it is your refusal to accept anything that doesn't fit the preconceived notions you set beforehand. Whether you are correct or not (not saying you are or aren't) has nothing to do with confirmation bias. It's about a predetermined, closed state of mind that prevents one from being objective with their evaluations.

 

[Cabneet]

Not really. Let me spell it out for you. For example, if yawn is a potential counterplay, why don't we discuss why yawn does or doesn't work? Etc. Instead, all I hear are vague things about how there is no counterplay or it is extremely limited. I don't see much talk about the specific examples. I don't see much talk about examining all the options in real detail.

It is not the burden of everyone else to play devil's advocate for a position they don't agree with. Do it yourself.
As for your yawn example it's frankly laughable. It's basically matchup fishing based on which yawn user you bring to check which potential dmax abuser, and as it is brought up ENDLESSLY in these discussions, that doesnt work since you can potentially dmax 4 to 6 mons without negatively impacting teambuilding.
Not only that but since dmax moves boost your stats and many of its best abusers are moxie and beast boost mons, sacking a mon to yawn with it can still leave you in a bad position, especially considering an unlucky wake up and the fact that the mon who could get a yawn off was one of yours who already had a good matchup vs the dmaxer. Also sleep clause will likely interfere with this often.

These aren't exactly in depth topics in this particular thread. Other people on here have even stated that the conversations here on both sides weren't exactly the best. People have tried to tell me better conversation for it exist, but I don't see them here because they aren't here. What is here isn't what I'm looking for.

Well then why dont YOU tell us why you think it's not broken and all the wonderful and varied counterplay there apparently is that we simply aren't exploring. Or was "use yawn bro" it?

Another straw man argument about something I didn't say. The process is wrong if it hasn't had proper and in depth consideration related to this specific tier. It has nothing to do with landslide votes.

Some shit was here

I'll ask you again to please stop misrepresenting my points.

It was not misrepresented, it was abbreviated. Certainly not in a positive light, but that's not what makes something a straw man. Funny how you literally post the dictionary definition and still don't apply it right. There is also literally nothing to suggest that there hasnt been proper depth and consideration related to natdex ou.
Again, if you want to see these points made, make them yourself. I'm sure they've already been done to death though, and I'm guessing this is why you are playing these mental gymnastics instead of making those points.



As for your next whole point if you are going to say some trash like "I will not acknowledge this again" then I guess I dont need to bother dismantling it. This is tiring anyway.

it's 100% relevant because it is hypocritical to tell someone to go at AG (or support that position) and refuse to consider my point about gen 7 OU. Don't you understand that it's the same kind of argument? At least while you tried to dodge my question yet again, you admitted that you were always banking on Dynamax being banned.

Yeah, no, that analogy completely falls apart the moment you have to create a fantasy universe where dmax isnt getting banned for it to make any sense, that's why I didn't acknowledge it. You look at my view of the dmax ban being inevitable as being biased. I view it as being pragmatic.

I guess it is easier not to care when you figure it won't effect you. And yet when someone talks about potentially banning Dynamax, you ask how "long you have to suffer" though it.

Because I am tired of people clearly just trying to delay it by saying things like "but we need more time to see if its broken" without ever suggesting a GOOD reason why it might not be. We've seen the same old tired recycled arguments used in the gen 8 ou suspect with the most significant point in favor being that natdex has z crystals and megas so there may only potentially be 8 mons per game who can dmax instead of 12. Do I need to tell you why this argument really isnt a good one or can you read the thread yourself?

You aren't willing to go to gen 7 OU yourself

Speak for your damn self gen 7 OU was great.

but you are perfectly willing to tell other people to go to the drastically different AG tier. If you still don't see the blatant double standard then I don't know what else to tell you.

Well, if dmax gets banned (and you know as well as i do that its gone) where else will you go? Yeah, it's sad, but it's not my problem, and it's not anyone's responsibility to alter the voting process because that's what you want.

You can call it whatever you like. Your actual position isn't important so much as it is your refusal to accept anything that doesn't fit the preconceived notions you set beforehand.

You havent put forth anything that does! You have merely suggested that some might exist!

Whether you are correct or not (not saying you are or aren't)

well maybe you should start saying whether I am or not, because I grow tired of these games.

 

[Bold School]

It is not the burden of everyone else to play devil's advocate for a position they don't agree with. Do it yourself.

Well then why dont YOU tell us why you think it's not broken and all the wonderful and varied counterplay there apparently is that we simply aren't exploring. Or was "use yawn bro" it?

I believe I already stated two things. First, that I have no current position for or against it. Second, that I will both form my own position and try to examine counterplay in greater depth, once I get more experience in this particular tier. I didn't mean to get in a massive debate with people before I even finished forming a conclusion on it myself. I only wanted to voice a few concerns I had that seem to be increasingly validated by the responses in this thread, which tell me at least some people here seem to have the wrong attitude about this.

It isn't really responsible to vote banning dynamax without considering all the potential counterplay options. It shouldn't be up to just me to do this. This is something that we as a whole should have looked at thoroughly first. Allegedly, that has already been done. Having said that, I don't understand why people can't point to these conversations that allegedly totally exist already yet are nowhere to be found here in this thread. If your only response left is "Do it yourself" then you probably don't have anything.

It was not misrepresented, it was abbreviated. Certainly not in a positive light, but that's not what makes something a straw man.

Nonsense. You didn't abbreviate. You asserted the completely wrong reasons for why I said what I said and acted like that fake reason was where I was actually coming from. No, you weren't even close. This is a deliberate and blatant misrepresentation of my point. No, abbreviation is not a valid excuse for trying to replace my reasoning with a fake one of your own. That's a classic straw man.

Yeah, no, that analogy completely falls apart the moment you have to create a fantasy universe where dmax isnt getting banned for it to make any sense, that's why I didn't acknowledge it. You look at my view of the dmax ban being inevitable as being biased. I view it as being pragmatic.

Yeah, no. You are twisting yourself into a pretzel on this one. Bottom line is you are championing AG as an alternative and yet you refuse to acknowledge the other side of the same coin. It's a massive double standard on your part. The entire discussion stemmed from the importance of National Dex being the last place where it hasn't been banned. I was trying to show you how things might be reversed, and your only response is how things couldn't possibly be reversed because you don't think it could happen. Sorry, you don't get to have it both ways.

For the record, Dynamax hasn't been banned yet. It's just trending that way. So the possibility it doesn't happened isn't that far fetched. It could technically still happen. So saying it 100% can't isn't a valid excuse when the Suspect isn't over yet.

Because I am tired of people clearly just trying to delay it by saying things like "but we need more time to see if its broken" without ever suggesting a GOOD reason why it might not be.

Maybe what you consider "good" isn't what someone else considers good. Sorry if it's a big decision to ban Dynamax from the last place it isn't banned from yet, but it is. Yeah, I think that means it should be considered in greater depth than normal. What I mainly want to do is make sure there has been enough time to properly examine all counterplay options. I'm not necesarrily saying there has or hasn't been enough time. I just want to see the evidence in this thread that it has been before we definitely say that it has.

Speak for your damn self gen 7 OU was great.

Come on, now. You know I said that because you refused to answer the question about going to an alternative. Don't dodge the issue again. Or are you saying you would go back to Gen 7 if Dynamax wasn't banned? Answer the question now.

Well, if dmax gets banned (and you know as well as i do that its gone) where else will you go? Yeah, it's sad, but it's not my problem, and it's not anyone's responsibility to alter the voting process because that's what you want.

There are a subset of people who like Dynamax and want to use it. All I'm saying is it's a big deal to ban it from the last tier it isn't banned from. I'm not saying and have never said you can't vote to ban it because of that. Bans obviously don't work that way. I'm only bringing it up because it means that we should be more careful about this one.

You havent put forth anything that does! You have merely suggested that some might exist!

As I have said before, I'm waiting to state my findings until I build up more experience in Nat Dex. When it comes to other people stating their cases, you should know by now what I think is missing. Right now, I'm seeing far more about the conclusions people have already made dictating the arguments than actually good justification for said conclusions.

well maybe you should start saying whether I am or not, because I grow tired of these games.

Fine. You're wrong. The reason you are wrong is because of your mind set. I don't care about your conclusion. I care about the fact that the conclusion you already made prevents you from acknowledging any other possibility.

 

[damflame 3]

Please ban dynamax, it's just broken, ban this shit

 

[Genteam]

In my opinion, Dmax should be banned but not Gmax. Most play a better role with status movements, lost for max guard and others have weaknesses x 4 or poor coverage

 

[edfrick]

I think the way dynamax was first handled on the tier was perfect, choosing between having a mega and z user on your team OR the ability to dynamax is good, I think allowing you to use all three is absurdly unbalanced so instead of banning it I believe it should go back to that if not just BAN it

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

I’m just gonna get this out now since it popped up again: Gigantimax is being banned along Dynamax, they are basically the same but for specific mons, and it would be wholeheartedly unfair and still broken if one was allowed without the other. This is how the SS OU Council did it, it’s only fair to do it here as well.

I pray that y’all actually wanting to not ban Dynamax are actually getting reqs this time instead of sparking fires for the sake of burning shit, cause to me, all I see is Deja Vu but with even more powerful abusers.

 

[vapzitar]

req

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some pros and cons i do want to point out:

pros:
- 6 mon stall teams seem to have vanished completly from the ladder. I do think this isnt thanks to dynamaxing only though, but also due to pokemon with absurd attacking power such as dracovish.
- In battles where two semi-stall teams face off against eachother, dynamaxing enables a great way to get out of situations where both players cant really do much to eachother but switching around. Stall is way more comfortable to play against now, but at the same time stallmons are still as useful as they have always been. i made reqs with a balanced team consisting of 3 stall mons and 3 offensive mons. (Zapdos, Swampert, Toxapex, Dragonite, Heracross-m, Kartana)
- positive to point out is also the dynamic of the game itself. The course of each battle decides what Mon you want to dynamax. In the 38 games ive made every single pokemon has been dynamaxed. A format with dynamaxing being allowed will put more focus on the battles, instead of the teambuilding and planning process.

cons:
- The biggest problem i see here is the rise of Ditto. Ditto kinda destroys competitive gameplay by creating tons of situations where speedties decide the outcome of a game. Also if the opponent has a ditto and you dont, you cant really dynamax with mons, whos attacks boost their stats. And as these Mons are usually the strongest Dynamaxers, earlier or later you will be forced to play Ditto aswell. I predict Ditto getting a usage higher than Lando in the previous Gen on high ladder without dynamaxing being banned.
- Battles can quickly get out of hands. From one moment to the other you can suddenly find yourself in a horrible situation, even though you were in the way better position the whole battle before. Like 50% of my losses happened "all of a sudden", as i completly underestimated the dynamax power of the opponents active pokemon. I do wonder whether this is just a symptom of the start though and whether our brains would adapt to the new playstyle within a couple months.

 

[Baltimore Beedrills]

req

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View attachment 214725

some pros and cons i do want to point out:

pros:
- 6 mon stall teams seem to have vanished completly from the ladder. I do think this isnt thanks to dynamaxing only though, but also due to pokemon with absurd attacking power such as dracovish.
- In battles where two semi-stall teams face off against eachother dynamaxing enables a great way to get out of situations where both players cant really do much to eachother but switching around. Stall is way more comfortable to play against now, but at the same time stallmons are still as useful as always. i made reqs with a balanced team consisting of 3 stall mons and 3 offensive mons. (Zapdos, Swampert, Toxapex, Dragonite, Heracross-m, Kartana)
- What is also positive is the dynamic of the game itself. The course of each battle decides what Mon you want to dynamax. In the 38 games ive made every single pokemon has been dynamaxed. A format with dynamaxing being allowed will put more focus on the battles, instead of the teambuilding and planning process.

cons:
- The biggest problem i see here is the rise of Ditto. Ditto kinda destroys competitive gameplay by creating tons of situations where speedties decide the outcome of a game. Also if the opponent has a ditto and you dont, you cant really dynamax with mons, whos attacks boost their stats. And as these Mons are usually the strongest Dynamaxers, earlier or later you will be forced to play Ditto. I predict Ditto getting a usage higher than Lando in the previous Gen on high ladder without dynamaxing being banned.
- Battles can quickly get out of hands. From one moment to the other you can suddenly find yourself in a horrible situation, even though you were in the way better position the whole battle before. Like 50% of my losses happened "all of a sudden", as i completly underestimated the dynamax power of the opponents active pokemon. I do wonder whether this is just a symptom of the start though and whether our brain would adapt to the new playstyle within a couple mons.

Though I'm all for banning Dynamax, you hit the pros on the head quite nicely. Especially the latter two which no one has seemed to mention but at least makes more sense than the other anti-ban arguments I've seen on the thread.

The con you mentioned regarding how quickly Dynamax can change the tide of the battle is the biggest issue I have with the mechanic. Granted, you could adapt to the metagame should the mechanic stay around, but it's not going to be easy. I would say 50% of the losses coming out of nowhere is to be expected, but not because we can't adapt but because of the unpredictability. Every mon barring Megas (unless you're a Ditto that copied a Mega) is capable of Dynamaxing at any point in the battle, and predictions begin to involve a lot more than just "is he going to switch", "is he going to stay in and use this", "does he have this coverage move", etc. Say a team has Kartana, Landorus-T, and some other Tapu; all are great Dynamaxers, and trying to predict which one is going to Dynamax isn't exactly easy. If you get it right, good for you; if not, you're kinda fucked. I'm not saying that adaptation is not the right way to deal with the playstyle, but that the unpredictability doesn't really take adaptation into account.

 

[Sificon]

the fact that I got reqs shows to me how braindead and broken Dynamax is

 

[Hyrulean]

Oh boy I sure had fun steamrolling teams with my Kartana. Dynamax is busted in a way that I love, but it would be unfair of me to not vote ban. It got to go, sadly.