Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

Thanks to Funbot28 sniping that before I could get my thoughts out (was factchecking), so I’ll just put this in a hide and y’all can judge. It’s not the main reason for posting now.

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I’d rather not get into the intricacies of Complex Bans yet again (it seems any Suspect Test or relating topic I have any interest in has arguments supporting them for whatever reason), but I’ll keep this simple: Complex Bans are really only used in absolutely specific reasons—see Gen 5’s Weather Speed Abilities as a prime example. The point of this metagame, as far as I can guess, is to properly emulate how transferring previous Pokémon would work and implement the exact same limitations as the cartridge would; for example, Gen 5 Ho-Oh with Regenerator was incompatible with one of Roost or Recover (can’t entirely remember and the fact that the analysis was updated later hampers our ability to history check), Wooper was incompatible with Unaware + Aqua Tail, etc. Obviously this would translate with new Egg Moves and Event Moves as it always has throughout the generations, so to limit moves further due to GameFreak stupidly removing transfers Dexit only to update later would be ludicrous.

Okay, so...Dugtrio and Genesect. Here we go again, eh? Dugtrio’s Arena Trap is a complete nuisance to the metagame with Genesect being the ultimate beneficiary. No surprise. I’m in favor of Quickbanning Arena Trap and keeping it out for good (did we not learn from Gen 6?) and giving Genesect a Suspect Test in a metagame without easily trapping checks; yeah there’s Magnezone, but it also fears Heatran, so honestly, trapping Genesect’s checks will more often than not involve U-Turn into a Pursuit user or check to Genesect’s check that can take full advantage.

Also, Zygarde’s looking to be more troublesome after Genesect bites the dust.

Finally, Galarian Darmanitan isn’t as easily exploitative in National Dex; with the staple defensive cores, it becomes even more reliant on prediction than ever before, plus a couple more Pokémon capable of tanking it than in normal OU. To be honest, it could have an argument with the potential 50/50 scenarios it can create, but keep in mind that Scarf cuts its potential power somewhat while Band leaves it open to be outsped by even more Pokémon than ever. Is it problematic? Nowhere near as much as Zygarde, Genesect, or Dugtrio, which I believes needs more immediate action.

Apologies for the somewhat scattered post, I’m about to start work and I’m trying to get my ideas out quickly before I do.

 

[Solaros & Lunaris]

Yeah GalarDarm is not the menace it was in SS for the reasons stated above. The existence of things like Mega Scizor, Slowbro, and the several other Icicle switch-ins we have in the tier lock it into undesirable coverage that can be exploited. For example, locking into Icicle or Flare lets it become fodder for Mtoise.

Anyway, here’s a few sets I’ve been experimenting with

Rain Core

Dragapult @ Choice Specs / Expert Belt
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Shadow Ball / U-turn
- Thunder
- Surf

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball

Rain Dragapult is something I’ve wanted to experiment with for a while as a replacement for Koko/Gren. Well, that, and I wanted another offensive answer to Vish, who is a headache to rain because CB + Rain has no switch-ins. Draga outspeeds positive-natured Scarf Vish and nukes it with Draco Meteor. Water+Electric coverage is also quite hard to switch into, while Pult’s STABs bring the hurt to typical rain checks like Tangrowth. It blocks Spin and hurts Defoggers, so Dual Hazards Ferrothorn is the primest partner that I could think of. Setting hazards on Pult and Pert checks means rain never loses momentum, and the two have a great set of resistances to abuse.


Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Light Metal
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Curse
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Roost

The tier’s undisputed best physical wall. Curse Scizor is not a meta innovation by any means, but it compresses the role of a role of a Zyg counter, MMeta counter, pivot and soft Psychic check. Genesect also needs Flamethrower to touch it, but +2 Thunderbolts can be very annoying. Fantastic mon right now that should be used more.


Weavile @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pickpocket
EVs: 252 Atk / 20 SpD / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Icicle Crash
- Punishment

Not saying MToise is healthy but this is one way I’ve been trying to deal with it. Punishment OHKOs it from full and has a general good damage output against anything that has set up. This is great because most of the meta has no issue taking a hit while setting up (see ZardX, Toise and SG Genesect) which puts them into the range of Punishment. Scarf Pursuit also slams MegaZam and you can fake CB initially to scare non-BP Metagross. 20 SpD EVs are filler, but 236 Jolly outruns Sunny Venusaur and +2 Dragonite.

 

[Cold Apple Soda]

Hey i'm fairly new to National Dex but i've played a good amount of games and i have a decent grasp on the meta rn. Even read this entire thread to see about some threats that are popping up nowadays. I've noticed that Genesect is pretty powerful with it's unpredictability and Dugtrio with its trapping capabilities. Along with Darm being very strong with scarf and band variants. I wanna say that i've been using Moltres to amazing success to deal with these mons.

Moltres @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 208 HP / 60 Def / 240 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Defog
- Toxic/Will-O-Wisp/Roar/U-Turn
- Flamethrower

Edit: You can also run Hidden Power Ground if u really wanna hit Tran since he 100% fucks you over.

As you could guess Heavy Duty Boots was a blessing cause of it's typing, and this allows it to defog much easier on rockers such as Ferrothorn. This mon is capable of even dealing with Volcarona's that don't run Z-Psychic. As well as having pressure + roost to stall out some mons attacks and burn pp. Toxic allows it to put mons that can switch into it fairly well on a timer such as Zygarde, Chansey, T-Tar, Slowbro, etc. Flamethrower is there cause this allows it to directly kill Darm without investment, kill Kart, 2hko Ferrothorn, hit Excadrill and Bulu. Will-O can be run for the same reasons as before but it fucks over physical attackers a bit more, specifically Medicham and Lopunny and Metagross (all mega). U-Turn for momentum. Basic stuff. This post is pretty messy but i hope you guys try this out cause it's actually pretty nice.

Calcs

252 Atk Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 208 HP / 60 Def Moltres: 151-178 (40.4 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darmanitan-Galar: 380-450 (108.2 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 159-187 (42.6 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 144-169 (38.6 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Kartana Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 208 HP / 60 Def Moltres: 139-164 (37.2 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[Predator145]

I'm afraid the Gorilla Tactics in the calculator doesn't work. When I put another ability in the damage is the same. So Scarf Darm will 2HKO the HP only invested Moltres. Rotom Heat however, with a defensive spread with 240 speed to outspeed Ada Bisharp can do similarly what you described (taking 4 crashes from CS Darm to be KOed ) but will have to sacrifice recovery.

 

[Lameflame]

I know taking a position that isn't lockstep with public opinion is a death sentence on these forums but I'd like to explain why Genesect, while very good, isn't as problematic right now as it is being made out to be.

First of all, I think the biggest issue with the tier right now is Arena Trap (aka Dugtrio). Arena Trap has allowed a ton of top-tier offensive threats to limit their already shallow pool of defensive checks, amplifying their effectiveness in a way that rewards offensive counterplay more than defensive counterplay. Offensive pokemon with access to U-turn and a wide movepool benefit from this even further, because they often have the upper hand in forcing the opponent to guess whether they will click a STAB/coverage move or pivot out into Dugtrio. Genesect may very well be the best abuser of Arena Trap, because it has access to a strong U-turn and the best countermeasures to it are mostly trapped and killed by Dugtrio.

However, for those of us that were around for the ORAS Mega Metagross suspect test, I want to refer to that as precedent. ORAS M-Meta had a fair number of defensive checks, and because those checks functioned well with each other as cores in the metagame to cover other pokemon as well, M-Meta often found itself suffering from 4MSS at times. What pushed it over the line for most people was the combination of Mega Metagross + Gothitelle, which allowed Meta to trap and kill its defensive answers, free up its moveslots to better handle offensive counterplay and become unmanageable quickly. Even though public opinion was in favor of a Metagross ban at first, it was ultimately the trapper Gothitelle that was deemed the problematic element, not the abuser itself. I think most of the same logic applies here.

For those who argue that, notwithstanding Arena Trap, Genesect still doesn't have many "true" counters, welcome to Pokemon in 2020. Broken checking broken is a separate concept from accepting the reality of the game you're playing. Almost every pokemon in this tier has some way of taking advantage of its defensive answers, through its own movepool or Z-moves. I question whether you can be successful in this tier with the mentality that you need to counter or hard-check every single mon from S through A- on the viability rankings (and if you feel you can do so without Genesect around, I encourage you to share). Rather, I view success in pokemon as being able to manage risk and reward better than your opponent. Managing that risk changes every single turn of every battle, which is why blanket statements about what Genesect can do with its vast movepool are less persuasive than a judgment about what your opponent might do with it in the context of an actual game, where you can calc damage and scout its sets. For a pokemon to be healthy, you have to be entitled to a reasonable level of certainty about what it might do (or often does in that metagame) in order to react with defensive counterplay. In Genesect's case, there exists a fair number of checks and/or prominent cores that do well in the metagame in other ways besides solely checking Genesect itself. For offensive counterplay, its speed is poor by the offensive standards of this tier, and the sets that can remedy that (Scarf, SG+3atk) do so at the expense of either its wallbreaking ability or the breadth of its coverage. 326 speed is passable to do damage against Balance teams with the right set/coverage, but Balance is suffering as a playstyle as a whole right now in favor of HO and some stall builds, and Genesect shouldn't be the scapegoat for that.

If it is not abundantly clear at this point, my position is to just quickban Arena Trap and give the meta time to unfold from there. I understand Genesect has been banned in previous OU generations and therefore has a stigma associated with it as a banworthy pokemon, but I would like to see it tested properly in a metagame free from other constraining influences (DeoSharp HO, STag/Arena Trap, Pheromosa, etc.).

 

[Cabneet]

I know taking a position that isn't lockstep with public opinion is a death sentence on these forums but I'd like to explain why Genesect, while very good, isn't as problematic right now as it is being made out to be.

First of all, I think the biggest issue with the tier right now is Arena Trap (aka Dugtrio). Arena Trap has allowed a ton of top-tier offensive threats to limit their already shallow pool of defensive checks, amplifying their effectiveness in a way that rewards offensive counterplay more than defensive counterplay. Offensive pokemon with access to U-turn and a wide movepool benefit from this even further, because they often have the upper hand in forcing the opponent to guess whether they will click a STAB/coverage move or pivot out into Dugtrio. Genesect may very well be the best abuser of Arena Trap, because it has access to a strong U-turn and the best countermeasures to it are mostly trapped and killed by Dugtrio.

However, for those of us that were around for the ORAS Mega Metagross suspect test, I want to refer to that as precedent. ORAS M-Meta had a fair number of defensive checks, and because those checks functioned well with each other as cores in the metagame to cover other pokemon as well, M-Meta often found itself suffering from 4MSS at times. What pushed it over the line for most people was the combination of Mega Metagross + Gothitelle, which allowed Meta to trap and kill its defensive answers, free up its moveslots to better handle offensive counterplay and become unmanageable quickly. Even though public opinion was in favor of a Metagross ban at first, it was ultimately the trapper Gothitelle that was deemed the problematic element, not the abuser itself. I think most of the same logic applies here.

For those who argue that, notwithstanding Arena Trap, Genesect still doesn't have many "true" counters, welcome to Pokemon in 2020. Broken checking broken is a separate concept from accepting the reality of the game you're playing. Almost every pokemon in this tier has some way of taking advantage of its defensive answers, through its own movepool or Z-moves. I question whether you can be successful in this tier with the mentality that you need to counter or hard-check every single mon from S through A- on the viability rankings (and if you feel you can do so without Genesect around, I encourage you to share). Rather, I view success in pokemon as being able to manage risk and reward better than your opponent. Managing that risk changes every single turn of every battle, which is why blanket statements about what Genesect can do with its vast movepool are less persuasive than a judgment about what your opponent might do with it in the context of an actual game, where you can calc damage and scout its sets. For a pokemon to be healthy, you have to be entitled to a reasonable level of certainty about what it might do (or often does in that metagame) in order to react with defensive counterplay. In Genesect's case, there exists a fair number of checks and/or prominent cores that do well in the metagame in other ways besides solely checking Genesect itself. For offensive counterplay, its speed is poor by the offensive standards of this tier, and the sets that can remedy that (Scarf, SG+3atk) do so at the expense of either its wallbreaking ability or the breadth of its coverage. 326 speed is passable to do damage against Balance teams with the right set/coverage, but Balance is suffering as a playstyle as a whole right now in favor of HO and some stall builds, and Genesect shouldn't be the scapegoat for that.

If it is not abundantly clear at this point, my position is to just quickban Arena Trap and give the meta time to unfold from there. I understand Genesect has been banned in previous OU generations and therefore has a stigma associated with it as a banworthy pokemon, but I would like to see it tested properly in a metagame free from other constraining influences (DeoSharp HO, STag/Arena Trap, Pheromosa, etc.).

I definitely agree with the notion that Genesect will be significantly easier to handle once arena trap is gone.
I'd like to think it will be a close suspect, but hes still among the 3 I think should be re-tested. I dont think gene is so much of an issue as gene + the terror boys in tandem are.

 

[theotherguytm]

Broken checking broken is a separate concept from accepting the reality of the game you're playing.

I think this is a very good argument overall and I fully agree Gene should be given time without Duggy, but this point is a bit of... Well... Exactly what led to Gen 7 being a matchup-based mess TBH.
What this is saying is "We can choose to accept the whole tier is a broken mess that could take years to fully fix thanks to decisions not made by us last gen." You can read more about last gen and the complaints with it here:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/state-of-sun-moon-ou.3654499/
And to a lesser degree here:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/z-moves.3642013/
Some quotes I find enlightening:

Hey there, I’d like to discuss the current state of SM OU. It’s no secret that there are numerous complaints about the imbalance in the current metagame. There’s simply too much to cover and too many mons that force building to be an absolute nightmare. I believe that the metagame has reached a state where builders have to ignore threats in order to make successful teams. The tier has become destabilized to the point where many top players have accepted that it’s become a “matchup meta”. While matchup is prevalent in many tiers and generations, it is most prominent in SM OU, with many significant games being decided or near decided at team preview.

when i was on the council early-gen we made the same mistake. we took months to ban pheromosa for the sake of exploring whether or not the metagame could adapt to it properly, leaving it available for merely the entire of spl 8. then, after recognizing that this thing was ridiculously broken, we decided to do the same exact thing for the next 3 years. it took us how long to get a zygarde suspect test going? and now, as the generation nears its end, we're running out of time to fix it during its heyday once again, leaving it open to predatory suspects in the future over god knows what. so, in that case, no more of this lackadaisical tiering. the OU council is not the supreme court; your objective is not to legislate reactionary when challenged, but to actively survey the metagame and decide if there is a problem at hand.

kartana is absolutely the root of the wider issues in the tier right now. obviously nothing is a guaranteed switch in to kart in the whole game, not just ou, but theres other mons that fit that bill that aren’t broken or even top tier in some cases; kyurem-b for example. it’s important to look at what kartana does in games, but i think the actual issue & what separates it from other breakers with no real counters are the things you are forced to do to compensate for it in the builder, more so than what its doing in games. sure there’s a few things that can pivot in like pex & scarf lando, but if u pivot in on an sd with anything slower or that cant ohko, get ready to lose 1; main point being that these unreliable pivots don’t solve the issue of covering kartana in the builder.

So the question is: Are we happy with the decisions made last gen or not? Do we want to go for roughly the same power level, lower it, or possibly raise it? But if we aren't banning mons for the sake of not banning mons, or we're just accepting the game is busted, then we may as well play Ubers UU.

 

[Funbot28]

Just a small announcement to make but I would like to announce that Jho has joined the National Dex OU council! Their recent yet expansive interest in the tier has been adequately displayed throughout smogon, discord, and the PS room and we feel they would be a great addition in making tiering decisions! Congratulations!

To add on to this, expect more updates regarding tiering (ie: bans / suspects) very soon.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

Thank Christ, Arena Trap has once again received the ban hammer. Now we can more readily see if Genesect is still as problematic without Dugtrio helping it (I think it’s somewhat questionable in theory, but I’m gonna eventually see the full effects at some point after work).

 

[LORD SAGIS]

Gonna leave a cool mon I've been using.


Mantine @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Roost
- Toxic
- Defog / Ice Beam / Haze

The new Heavy-Duty Boots allows Mantine to become a more effective Defogger than it was last gen. It means that it can run less SpD and still be able to take 3 Greninja Dark Pulses. This new defensive investment makes it more able to check the Grounds that it used to struggle with on a consistent bases. However the main draw is that Water Immunity. Meaning Dracovish will have a hard time breaking through it. This why its such good role compression at the moment since it feels in Defogger, water immunity, Greninja check.

Possible Meta Trends


Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 204 SpD / 52 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm / Lava Plume
- Earth Power
- Toxic
- Taunt / Protect / Stealth Rock

Probably the biggest boon from the Arena Trap ban. Now Heatran can actually check Genesect and Darm-G and not get U-turned on and trapped. I can see Specially Defensive as great glue consider that it counters Genesect bar HP Ground or gimmicky Douse Drive sets. But Z-Move Stallbreakers sets can also be effective with Firium, Steelium, and Grassium all being strong wallbreakers.


Volcanion @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 24 HP / 156 Def / 228 SpA / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Defog / Substitute

With Arena Trap gone, I can see this thing becoming a lot better. Probably the best Water Immunity for Offensive teams because of how easy it can punish many of its checks with a burn. Great defogger as well considering how easy it can force out Heatran and Ferrothorn. It also run Sub to prey on those switch outs as well. Forgot what the EVs are for so use your imagination.



I can see Aegislash being a bit less prevalent because of Arena Trap ban. One of biggest reasons I used it was because it was one of the few Genesect checks that couldn't be trapped by Dugtrio. Still, Subtoxic is a excellent set and one of the most annoying things to deal with for more passive teams.



This is probably the weirdest case for a "broken" pokemon I've ever seen. Right now it pretty bad because of all the sturdy resists and water immunities. But if no runs brings it, people will stop using water immunites. But when that happens people will bring Dracovish again and shred those teams apart. Not calling for a suspect. I just find it funny how bad it does when its face when just a single water immunity is on the other team. If you are gonna use it make sure you use Earthquake because that hits Volcanion.

Final Note



I think we should wait until the first Tour is finished before Suspecting/Q-Banning this thing. Dugtrio being gone is a big change for a lot of checks like Heatran, Toxapex, and many others. After the Tour is over we can get a clear view of what a Metagame with Genesect is like and see if we like it or not. Only time will tell I guess.

 

[Jordy]

I completely, wholeheartedly disagree that we should wait with quick banning Genesect. While it's true that Dugtrio played a relatively big part in how overwhelming it was, the same principle still applies; Genesect has the option to U-turn out of all its checks with little to no repercussion. On top of that, its sheer versatility makes it way too hard to account for every set; between Expert Belt, Choice Scarf, Shift Gear, and even some niche Douse Drive sets, it's really not plausible, especially when considering Genesect's many coverage options. Download also adds another layer to the game that takes control away from the opposition; the Genesect player just has to get the right boost and Genesect will then almost always be able to force a switch and subsequently claim a KO. You could argue that what boost Genesect gets can somewhat be controlled by the opposition, but it's not very practical.

With all of these things in mind, I really don't see an argument to keep Genesect unbanned.

 

[Guard]

Sets

Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 112 Def / 148 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Flamethrower
- Bug Buzz
- Roost

Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 188 Def / 72 Spe
Bold Nature
- Flamethrower
- U-turn
- Roost
- Toxic/Will-o-Wisp/Whirlwind/Defog

*Spe EVs are for outspeeding Modest Heatran
** Will-o-Wisp might seem moot with Flame Body, but is actually quite clutch in many situations when you need a burn in a pinch. Toxic allows you to punish defensive water-types, which are left unharmed otherwise (you can U-turn on them though). Whirlwind gives it a much better matchup against the likes of CM Magearna, Clefable, Mega Latias and Reuniclus. Defog is also interesting, since it denies hazards from the likes of Ferrothorn, Gliscor, Clefable, Mega Metagross and Toxapex. However, if you run Defog on this, it should not be your only means of hazard control.

I believe Heavy Duty Boots variants of Volcarona are quite underexplored as the defensive fire-type in a team and have a few advantages over Heatran which might merit some exploration at the least. First of all, it is actually one of the most reliable Genesect-checks in the metagame, being able to stomach all relevant moves from it bar Banded, Download-boosted Extreme Speed and Blaze Kick, Specs Download-boosted Thunderbolt and Flamethrower, and Douse Drive Techno Blast, while having the potential of punishing U-turn through Flame Body. In addition to this, it is also a more durable check to (non-ZH) Mega Metagross, Magearna, Melmetal and Mega Mawile than Heatran due to its accesss to recovery and key resistances, is harder to U-turn on since it can punish that while also checking other potent Pokemon such as Kartana, Tapu Bulu and Scarf Darmanitan.

However, it does have its flaws of course. It is more prone to Knock Off than Heatran (albeit, it can punish it), which is unfortunate, as that makes it a less reliable check to Kartana, Mega Mawile and Mega Scizor. It also does not have much offensive presence in most Balance matchups, and may therefore be passive/a momentum drain (although the more defensive set can mitigate this through U-turn/Whirlwind). Lastly, it also faces 4MSS.

Nevertheless, its access to Roost, phasing/hazard removal, U-turn and its unique checking prowess gives it a distinct niche over Heatran, which allows for experimentation with different Balance structures.

 

[theotherguytm]

Volcanion @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 24 HP / 156 Def / 228 SpA / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Flamethrower
- Earth Power
- Defog / Substitute

With Arena Trap gone, I can see this thing becoming a lot better. Probably the best Water Immunity for Offensive teams because of how easy it can punish many of its checks with a burn. Great defogger as well considering how easy it can force out Heatran and Ferrothorn. It also run Sub to prey on those switch outs as well. Forgot what the EVs are for so use your imagination.

You probably want boots on this especially if you want to use it as a defogger.
But I made a post a while back on why Volc makes a bad Vish check. Basically, if Vish predicts you and uses Psychic Fangs, you die. In fact, Vish even wins on a double switch 1v1 most of the time. Using your set:
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Psychic Fangs vs. 24 HP / 156 Def Volcanion: 133-157 (43.3 - 51.1%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Psychic Fangs vs. 24 HP / 156 Def Volcanion: 133-157 (43.3 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Yep, you need Boots)
228+ SpA Volcanion Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dracovish: 128-151 (39.8 - 47%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (You're slower)
So you have a 38.7% chance to beat Vish with Volc if you successfully predict them going hard into Vish and go to Volc on the same turn, assuming no prior chip and you have rocks up. I would hardly call that a check.
To reliably beat Vish, you need Hidden Power Dragon (you know you're desperate when you're resorting to obscure HPs) or Will-O-Wisp.
228+ SpA Volcanion Hidden Power Dragon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dracovish: 170-202 (52.9 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw burned Dracovish Psychic Fangs vs. 24 HP / 156 Def Volcanion: 66-78 (21.4 - 25.4%) -- 0.3% chance to 4HKO
228+ SpA Volcanion Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dracovish: 128-151 (39.8 - 47%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage (with the 3 turns of burn you kill)
And you might want to play with your EVs so Fangs never 2HKOs (24 HP/188Def if you need the 24HP for something or equivalent).the
Oh and good luck if it has Edge/Quake.
252+ Atk Choice Band Dracovish Earthquake vs. 24 HP / 188 Def Volcanion: 204-242 (66.4 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[LORD SAGIS]

Heres some other cool mons I've been using.


Dracozolt @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bolt Beak
- Outrage
- Fire Fang
- Substitute

I used to think that Dracozolt was mediocre because of how easy it could be taking advantage of by Ground Types and inconsistent ability in hustle. But for the last few days I've been enjoying this set that made me believe that Dracozolt is a underrated pick in the current metagame. Z-Outrage preys on Grounds like Zygarde and Landorus-T who thought they could come in for free. I've found this set in particular a very strong anti-defense option because of how hard it hits thanks to hustle. Of course Hustle is double edge sword but I think the destruction this set can cause makes it worthy anti-meta pick in the right hands.


Rotom-Heat @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 188 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Will-O-Wisp / Pain Split

Rotom-H is really cool choice right now. It has a pretty good match up against Genesect and Darmanitan-G and also makes a pretty decent Balance breaker thanks to its unique STAB combo. W-O-W lets Rotom-H punish Zygarde who otherwise would be allowed to come in for free. Pain Split can also be used to gives it some form of recovery and exploits Chansey switching in. Theres also the option to ditch Nasty Plot for both W-O-W and Pain Split which I haven't used but I think its probably still pretty good. 188 Speed EVs lets Rotom-H outspeed Modest Heatran.

 

[Cabneet]

Heres some other cool mons I've been using.


Dracozolt @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bolt Beak
- Outrage
- Fire Fang
- Substitute

I used to think that Dracozolt was mediocre because of how easy it could be taking advantage of by Ground Types and inconsistent ability in hustle. But for the last few days I've been enjoying this set that made me believe that Dracozolt is a underrated pick in the current metagame. Z-Outrage preys on Grounds like Zygarde and Landorus-T who thought they could come in for free. I've found this set in particular a very strong anti-defense option because of how hard it hits thanks to hustle. Of course Hustle is double edge sword but I think the destruction this set can cause makes it worthy anti-meta pick in the right hands.


Rotom-Heat @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 188 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Will-O-Wisp / Pain Split

Rotom-H is really cool choice right now. It has a pretty good match up against Genesect and Darmanitan-G and also makes a pretty decent Balance breaker thanks to its unique STAB combo. W-O-W lets Rotom-H punish Zygarde who otherwise would be allowed to come in for free. Pain Split can also be used to gives it some form of recovery and exploits Chansey switching in. Theres also the option to ditch Nasty Plot for both W-O-W and Pain Split which I haven't used but I think its probably still pretty good. 188 Speed EVs lets Rotom-H outspeed Modest Heatran.

Just a thought, but wouldn't you actually want your Rotom-H to be SLOWER than heatran? You know, seeing as tran can't really touch rotom with anything but toxic, I'd think you would want rotom to be the one taking a resisted hit and pivoting out into something that threatens it offensively.

 

[Jho]

Excellent segway into talking about heattom

Just a thought, but wouldn't you actually want your Rotom-H to be SLOWER than heatran? You know, seeing as tran can't really touch rotom with anything but toxic, I'd think you would want rotom to be the one taking a resisted hit and pivoting out into something that threatens it offensively

Not necessarily since Heattom really doesn't want to be Toxiced as it greatly limits its longevity, and its forced to check quite a lot in the current meta and being able to do so is what makes it really great currently imo. That being said, I think you want to run a much faster / offensive Heattom in the meta rn namely, this set made by Jordy , I've been using it quite a bit and I know quite a few others can attest to it as well:


Rotom-Heat @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 216 HP / 68 SpA / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Nasty Plot

This set maintains Rotom-Heats bulk, allowing it to serve as a decent check to many common Pokemon such as Genesect, Darmanitan-G, Magearna etc but also creeps Choice Band Zygarde, which is otherwise one of the best ways to force Heattom out. Couple that with Nasty Plot and Hidden Power Ice and you have a Rotom-Heat which actually cant be revenge killed by most Zygarde. This gives it a lot more opportunities to break teams, especially when most teams are relying on Bulky Grass + Bulky Water defensive cores in order to check Mmeta and Zygarde, as Heattom just blows through those.

 

[Predator145]

How does the traditional utility RotomH with WoW/Twave and Defog compared to the new Nastyplot one in a FWG core? If you have breakers already is it better to run a utility one with either defensive spread or just hp with speed? Being able to role compress ground immunity, hazard control, Darm and Genesect check and bulky/slow pivot is great.

 

[KirbCena]

What's the reasoning behind running Volt Switch over Thunderbolt for Heattom? I understand that it's able to compress both a wallbreaker/balance breaker and a pivot, which is amazing, but not running Pain Split means it's much more easy to wear down, especially since it has to run HDB over Leftovers in order to not get crippled by Stealth Rock. Wouldn't it at least theoretically be better run other mons that can pivot into those threats more consitently so Heattom can wallbreak more efficiently? Especially since once they know Volt Switch is your only Electric move, they can easily exploit that with switchins like Gastrodon/Seismitoad to reduce momentum, as well as pivoting mons like FerroPex(albeit a very risky move, but it can still prevent Heattom from putting in work with proper prediction). I'm not saying it's a bad choice, it's definitely got a lot of merit to it, but aren't there better mons who can pivot in and out with Voltturn against the aforementioned threats without being whittled down as easily?

 

[Unowninator]

I don't understand; why was Snowmanitan banned instead of Gorilla Tactics, while Arena Trap was banned instead of Dugtrio?

 

[astralydia]

I don't understand; why was Snowmanitan banned instead of Gorilla Tactics, while Arena Trap was banned instead of Dugtrio?

GDarm's not banned in NatDex - the reason Gorilla Tactics isn't banned in Galar Dex is because the ability itself isn't inherently uncompetitive - it would be atone to banning Huge Power / Pure Power

 

[astralydia]

Z moves in National Dex
​

Z moves in SM were at some point considered broken. With the release of SS, there appear to be less effective Z move users around, and with competing items such as Heavy-Duty Boots, it can be tougher to fit them than in the last gen. However, that does not mean they have decreased in viability a single bit. Here are some Z move users I have found pretty threatening:


Rotom-Heat @ Firium Z / Electrium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 108 HP / 176 SpA / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
- Overheat
- Thunderbolt / Volt Switch
- Hidden Power Ice / Pain Split
- Nasty Plot

It may seem a little unconventional for Rotom-Heat to run Z moves when Heavy-Duty Boots are such an important item for it, but hear me out: Firium absolutely annihilates balance compared to Boots: it has calcs that Boots wishes it could replicate. For example:

+2 176 SpA Rotom-Heat Inferno Overdrive (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Hydreigon: 271-319 (83.3 - 98.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+4 176 SpA Rotom-Heat Inferno Overdrive (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 315-371 (74.1 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 176 SpA Rotom-Heat Inferno Overdrive (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 324-382 (102.2 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

HP Ice doesn't achieve these targets as easily, and this is what also frees up Pain Split for these variants. Electrium is also useful if you want to keep pivots but want to break Toxapex balances.

Hydreigon @ Groundium Z / Darkinium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 224 SpA / 32 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse / Draco Meteor
- Earth Power / Flash Cannon
- Nasty Plot
- Roost

Those of you in the NatDex Discord know I talk about this mon quite a bit, and as of right now I feel it has some great utility for a wallbreaker. The Z sets happen to provide a great threat for balances right now, forcing Fini to stay high to handle it and pushing more Special Defense investment on Clefables. Darkinium Z is a more general alternative that warrants better support against Fairies but also hits mons such as Corviknight and Tangrowth much easier.

Gengar @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot

This mon has very little switchins and is probably my favourite stallbreaker right now. Ghostium Z is enough for it to churn out some serious damage against most bulky cores: take a look at the damage below

+2 252 SpA Gengar Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Magearna: 342-403 (94.2 - 111%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Gengar Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 236 HP / 196+ SpD Zygarde: 408-481 (98 - 115.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Gengar Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-Therian: 286-337 (95.3 - 112.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

For a lot of bulky targets that would be able to check it pre Z move they all tend to drop once the button is clicked. This mon usually claims at least one before fainting - it's probably the most effective Z user on this list.

Aegislash @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Claw
- Close Combat
- Shadow Sneak
- Swords Dance

This mon is alike to Gengar but has more variability under its belt and the capability to tank certain moves (such as Thousand Arrows from non Choiced Zygarde, Knock Offs from Tornadus-Therian). Its low speed can make breaking somewhat tough but the Z move will often remedy that as long as you're able to get Aegislash on the field.


Kartana @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance

Finally we have Kartana, a mon already known for how good of a Z user it was in SM. Due to the drop in usage of Flying types like Tornadus-T and Zapdos and teams instead opting to use Aegislash and Corviknight, this moveset is arguably the best that Kartana can use right now. It also helps make the occasional Volcarona easier to deal with by removing Heavy Duty Boots (the same goes for Tornadus).

 

[Guard]

This tier undoubtedly got healthier with the Arena Trap quickban, but in my opinion still leaves a lot to be desired (especially from a teambuilding perspective) and therefore, I think it is in the best interest of this tier if we start discussing our way forward from here. Personally, I think there are two main culprits that warrant immediate action.


Although using Genesect has become less brainless without Dugtrio support, Genesect is in my opinion still part of the epicentre of issues in this tier. Foremost, Genesect’s immense set versatility along with its access to U-turn makes it impossible to be safely accounted for in the teambuilder. Scarf Genesect still remains nigh impossible to take advantage of, while it in turn easily abuses its checks through U-turn, proper teammates, hazards and Knock Off support. Expert Belt, Band and Specs variants forgo the pivoting prowess to some extent, instead opting to break down a ridiculously large array of the defensive metagame exceedingly easily with the right Download boost under its (expert) belt and hazards. Z-move variants (mainly Steelium, but I have also seen Firium, Electrium and Psychium being situationally successful) only add to the strain it puts on teambuilding, albeit needing more support overall. As was expected, the removal of Arena Trap was not enough to lower its viability to a healthy level.


Zygarde causes similar issues from a teambuilding perspective and it is just as, if not more, versatile as/than Genesect. Even though Zygarde does not have the ability to directly pivot out of unfavourable matchups like Genesect, it trades that for an unhealthy amount of bulk for a set-up sweeper and the ability to cheese past its checks regardless through Glare, Toxic, Weakness Policy, certain EV spreads or a situational Z-move such as Groundium Z and Steelium Z. Due to these factors, it is similar to Genesect in the fact that it too is impossible to be accounted for in the teambuilder.

My current stance on these is that they do not warrant a suspect test and should be quickbanned instead, though I am eager to hear opinions.

 

[The Amazonian Rainforest]

Hrm.....



Quickban Genesect, Zygarde, Mega Blastoise.

Suspect Galarian darmanitan, Mega Metagross, Aegislash.

Come up with a final and consistent verdict on Z-Moves, whether Mega Evos are considered Pokemon in their own right, and structurally illegal sets.

Come to a decision on whether long-time twats like and even are unhealthy for the metagame.
Make National Dex room public; averaging about 50 users on prime time.

Boom, meta fixed, a clear pathway to a less-hyper offensive Overwatch match and instead an actually skill based fun meta void of the nearly unstoppable setup sweepers and Scott-free nukes that plague the tier.

 

[Predator145]

I've been testing the Slowbro+spDef Heatran core. Ice beam in lieu of t wave/toxic makes Bro very passive/set up fodder despite Teleport. Without it however it can't check Zygarde. Things like Roost+DD Zard can set up in it's face quite comfortably as what ever teleports out is gonna face it boosted. Is teleport really that good that it's not optional?

 

[Sputnik]

A lot of people seem to have Mega Blastoise as a top priority right now, so I know will some people will disagree with me on this, but I'm just gonna say it.

Mega Blastoise isn't worthy of a quickban, and I'm not sure it even warrants a suspect.

People might say that the turtle has a limited number of checks. This isn't necessarily incorrect, but it still has more than enough.

The main thing is that most of these checks are easy to fit on a wide variety of playstyles.

It would be different if we were being forced to run Mantine or some shit on random teams to make sure that this didn't run through teams after a Shell Smash. But the counterplay to this thing is viable and generally pretty easy to fit on most teams.

More Balanced teams have some great choices for counterplay that can really do well. Tapu Fini, AV Tang, Extreme Speed users such as Genesect and Zygarde, and Ditto are the main tools available. Spdef Unaware Clef does well against all sets, and standard Unaware Clef does well against sets without Hydro Pump. Ferrothorn and Chansey also can beat sets without Aura Sphere, which is becoming somewhat less common, and Pex can take a hit and Haze away the boosts barring flinch hax. More fringe options like AV Bulu and Guss are also viable choices for some teams. Bulkier squads can deal with it as well with some of the aforementioned tools. Mega Lopunny is great right now, and with double priority becoming standard it can revenge kill Mega Toise pretty easily. Other strong priority from Aegislash and Medicham also does the trick. It is also possible to cripple it with status before it begins its sweep.

Now, a lot of people have been saying that the counterplay is limited. It is true that the list of things that beat Mega Toise is relatively short. I don't see this as a huge issue, however. The list of counterplay is varied enough to still keep teambuilding interesting, and most of the aforementioned Pokemon fit on a wide variety of teams. A good builder can work around Mega Blastoise with the tools available in my opinion, and it definitely shouldn't be quick banned, and I'm not even sure a suspect is in order.