Yea that's what I meant lol
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Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter R8
- Start date
What a wonderful day for National Dex OU. The biggest two broken threats leaving the tier is a blessing for team building. Huge shout-out and thanks to the hardworking council for putting so much effort in this tier!
Besides Sneasler, at this point nothing else feels particularly egregious or contentious. Maybe that's a bit of a bold claim, but teambuilding already was improving post Gholdengo in the sense that hazard removal could be relied on more, and balance/bulky structures weren't being stuffed by the string cheese man. This should help even more, and it'll be interesting to see where the meta game develops from here. There's a whole host of underexplored and underused options from MVenu to Celesteela to Skeledirge to Manaphy. I'm looking forward to the possibilities!
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I do want to agree with this - there's a LOT of cool things to mess with in teambuilder now because of these bans. This is how natdex should feel. I'm feeling really positive about the tier, and I want to stop my discussionposting for a moment just to spend some time here and be positive about where we are.
Over the last few weeks we've made huge strides and I've had maybe more fun in the teambuilder and in matches today than I have in a long, long time. Since the ghold ban I've been been doing things like running Cradily and Tera Ground Regice on ladder. Not going to make top #1 but they're viable around 1700 and it's been a super fun time hanging out with people from the natdex room and battling together, enjoying the massive diversity in options we have now. I'm really enjoying the meta right now and things are only looking up.
Thank you to the council for your wisdom and hard work. You've done everyone in natdex a great service, and because of your actions, this is now the most enjoyable metagame I have ever played on Showdown, and I've been here over a decade.
(Edited for misphrasing a sentence)
A 4-hit stab icicle spear does 150 counting stab vs 160 from a supereffective iron head, while a 5-hit icicle spear does 187.5 vs 160 spereffective iron head.
#dontrunideahongarchompandkyurem
I think that some strategies are kinda dying in the current meta while others are rising. Mega Bannette over the last few months for example has risen from RU all the way up to OU by pure usage meaning that prankster is a more common strategy. While others like teams built around Kartana for it to sweep at the end are kinda gone. Kartana has dropped to UU and has gotten banned to UUBL. Basically some more favorable/unfavorable strategies are rising. I’ll say the metagame right now is good. The only thing bad/annoying is Mega Bannette.
Well ladies n gentlemen, at long last where finally freed from the claws of the bear, and the roar of godzilla. However, I would like to take this opportunity to point out a certain mon that is been in this tier, yet hasnt been used much due to Baxcalibur. Another Dragon Ice type, and a legendary at that... why none other than Kyurem...(todally not taking the spotlight from Oculars whatsoever)
Currently Kyurem is UUBL, meaning that it was too strong for the UU tier to handle, but it was overshadowed by Bax. But now with Bax gone, Kyurem has a real moment to shine in this meta. Kyurem has a decent amount of set that can be good. The most notable one is it's Subroost set, as the combination of Freeze-Dry + Earth Power means that no Heatran would want to come in, regardless of either if it's tera or not, and it can just pp stall a lot of mons under the combination of Sub + Pressure. However it can also go for a DD set as well, which could work similar to how Bax worked. But unlike Bax, this one is a bit more easier to exploit, for one, it doesn't have SD, meaning it can only truly go for DD, which is still a fine option. However the other big issue is it's lack of Earthquake, meaning that Heatran could beat this set, unless you go some way around it like Earth Power or Substitute and try and play around Heatran. The thing is that, there is potential for this mon to rise to OU.
Currently Kyurem is UUBL, meaning that it was too strong for the UU tier to handle, but it was overshadowed by Bax. But now with Bax gone, Kyurem has a real moment to shine in this meta. Kyurem has a decent amount of set that can be good. The most notable one is it's Subroost set, as the combination of Freeze-Dry + Earth Power means that no Heatran would want to come in, regardless of either if it's tera or not, and it can just pp stall a lot of mons under the combination of Sub + Pressure. However it can also go for a DD set as well, which could work similar to how Bax worked. But unlike Bax, this one is a bit more easier to exploit, for one, it doesn't have SD, meaning it can only truly go for DD, which is still a fine option. However the other big issue is it's lack of Earthquake, meaning that Heatran could beat this set, unless you go some way around it like Earth Power or Substitute and try and play around Heatran. The thing is that, there is potential for this mon to rise to OU.
Mega Banette rose to OU due to cheese. Mainly the Revival Blessing Cheese made by about15guys and trended by PokeaimmD.I think that some strategies are kinda dying in the current meta while others are rising. Mega Bannette over the last few months for example has risen from RU all the way up to OU by pure usage meaning that prankster is a more common strategy. While others like teams built around Kartana for it to sweep at the end are kinda gone. Kartana has dropped to UU and has gotten banned to UUBL. Basically some more favorable/unfavorable strategies are rising. I’ll say the metagame right now is good. The only thing bad/annoying is Mega Bannette.
kyurem is not the next baxc imo. While it may use dd, you're missing An incredible draco meteor, a breaking freeze dry And earth power Give it a v good coverage. But it'll surely suffer Even more From the need of loaded dice. baxca could get ko more easely And now the bulk of kyurem will push you to switch in And out more. With rocks up kyuren doesnt last long.
Kyurem is finally not mid as hell?? (Its probably still mid and we are coping) I mean at least subroost is pretty ok
The mega banette overhype is wild. While this thing has a niche use now and isn't just flat-out BAD, it's still pretty unimpressive compared to other wallbreakers. Encore does threaten most walls that would usually threaten it out but sadly you're beaten out by other priority options like Scizzor's Bullet Punch and Dark Types just ruin Mega Banette because while it can use destiny bond, it's essentially just a 50-50 that's mostly in favour of the opponent as they can choose which pokemon they lose.I think that some strategies are kinda dying in the current meta while others are rising. Mega Bannette over the last few months for example has risen from RU all the way up to OU by pure usage meaning that prankster is a more common strategy. While others like teams built around Kartana for it to sweep at the end are kinda gone. Kartana has dropped to UU and has gotten banned to UUBL. Basically some more favorable/unfavorable strategies are rising. I’ll say the metagame right now is good. The only thing bad/annoying is Mega Bannette.
ND is the most fun it's been since the Eleki cesspool meta(i miss it) rn. Of course, there are still brokens in the tier like Sneas, Lele, and Iron Valiant(val and lele less so), but that doesn´t make it any less fun. For a while, it felt like there was nothing we could do to fix the meta, but these bans changed that a lot. It´s honestly really diverse and as Eve L. Duhr said, this is like how ND should be. Also, does ladder enjoy losing or something, whats with bannette the mons ass don't use it.
So now that that's over with
let's get a sussy weasel suspect going on soon. Sneasler isn't necessarily outright broken but it is definitely uncompetetive.
let's get a sussy weasel suspect going on soon. Sneasler isn't necessarily outright broken but it is definitely uncompetetive.
I definetly want An action on ival. Slap psychic/shock And nothing can viably switch in on specs. Nothing But aegislash can take the assaults And that's one outta 1018 mons released. You dare think msciz has luck? Nah 40% on MOONBLAST. heatran is owned by fighting stab While spdef steela is neutralized by tbolt. The problem is mainly The Eterrain support And that's Why i'd argue about a KOKO ban as it is The main reason of val And sneasler being problematic, And is A menace to every water/flying/dragon/fighting pokemon in the tier, Even the more defensive ones, can run brave bird to kill grass And in general is quite dangerous. While you can Have a bad mu against fighting, its presence punishes any Not excellent mu against Elec. Not mentionning its speed And possibility to switch out If you bRING a counter/check in
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 122 SpD Scizor-Mega: 97-115 (28.1 - 33.4%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
Nice 40%
Joking aside. Specs Valiant has plenty of defensive counterplay. MZor works fine with bulkier spreads, and even regular offense is fine as you threaten fo shatter it with BP so 40% isnt an issue. Aegislash is a perfect stop to special sets, Corv sats all hits but tbolt, mega venusaur eats all but psyshock, toxapex can pivot in with spdef sets, scout, ans pivot out. Heatran pivots in on all but fighting stab. Galar Slowking walls it completely. And Volcarona is great into it too.
There's probably many more but the point I'm making is many teams will have one of these, if nof two, and/or multiple resists to its coverage forcing predictions.
Valiant is worth keeping an eye on because of its innate tendency to adapt to counterplay by virtue of its offensive toolkit, but not because of one set alone.
Sneasler gets countered by ghost types unless it's running fling,which is a one time move. Broken=/=Uncompetetive,something unfun to fight against doesn't mean it is banworthy.
The analysis writers hadn't caught on whats with banette. OH yeah i think it rose ever since pokeaimed trolled with it in augustI think that some strategies are kinda dying in the current meta while others are rising. Mega Bannette over the last few months for example has risen from RU all the way up to OU by pure usage meaning that prankster is a more common strategy. While others like teams built around Kartana for it to sweep at the end are kinda gone. Kartana has dropped to UU and has gotten banned to UUBL. Basically some more favorable/unfavorable strategies are rising. I’ll say the metagame right now is good. The only thing bad/annoying is Mega Bannette.
There aren't any good OU ghosts rn, bannette is terrible. It is uncompetitive bc of Dire Claw is a bs move, and it's broken because it hits incredibly hard and is incredibly fast. It is both uncompetitive and overpowered.
Were that the case, there never would have been a ban on King's Rock. However, it's generally agreed that it's better for a metagame to reward skilled play, and not the whims of xorshift128+ (the current method of pseudorandom number generation). Hence,
was banned.So yes, we CAN ban things for being wildly uncompetitive. In my mind, Sneasler is an even worse offender than
because it's an extremely viable mon with a great deal of usage. How many ladder games do you think have been decided by Dire Claw's randomness since Sneasler was first introduced? And is this something we should tolerate in National Dex?I would say that just ban dire claw. Sneasler is still s=good without it without being blantantly opWere that the case, there never would have been a ban on King's Rock. However, it's generally agreed that it's better for a metagame to reward skilled play, and not the whims of xorshift128+ (the current method of pseudorandom number generation). Hence,
So yes, we CAN ban things for being wildly uncompetitive. In my mind, Sneasler is an even worse offender than
Why would Dire Claw be banned if Sneasler is the only Pokemon that has access to the move? The move will not be banned unless more than one Pokemon gains access to the move to prove that it is the move which is the problem rather than the Pokemon. Dire claw isn't even the worst part about Sneasler and is blown way out of proportion. It's the fact that it has Unburden and a attack stat of 130. Previously the strongest unburden abuser was hawlucha, which was already very good on koko screens offenses despite having 92 attack, sneasler is wayyy stronger and if Dire claw were theoretically banned rather than sneasler itself for some odd reason sneasler would just use Gunk Shot and still be broken/controversial.
"bulkier spreads". yes, indeed. I Don't know How many times people Have been saying aegislash is unviable (tho untrue) corv is nuked by tbolt sorry, especially witg Elec Terrain up, mega venu is hit by psyshock as you said, toxapex is also hit by tbolt/psychic coverage, heatran is Still weak to its stab And will Never win a real duel, nonetheless, you got a point on glowking And volc
This is possibly the stupidest thing I've seen all day... Its called dire claw. Sneasler is the only one to get the move meaning the move itself shouldnt be banned and the move is uncompetetive which is one reason why it should be banned. Second there aren't really any good ghosts right now and even then they get ohkod or 2hkod anyways in most cases. Also if we ban dire claw it will still just shred teams but with gunk shot instead of dire claw.
I would like to provide my opinions on some Pokemon considered problematic currently. I won't attempt to sway the votes, just share my perspective.
Iron Valiant: This is indeed the most versatile Pokemon of all time, being a staple in most of the offensive meta. It is a fantastic sweeper able to fit in a variety of roles, running physical, special, and even mixed sets without much issue, as well as running Life Orb and the Choice items very well. The only thing it really lacks is that it doesn't have any utility and is fairly frail.
Tapu Lele: In a similar vein to Valiant, Tapu Lele can pretty much be slapped on any team that needs a special sweeper without much issue. I actually remember the days when the most common set people ran for Lele was a Scarf sweeper set. I am unsure what the most common set now is, but Lele still proves to be a challenge.
Sneasler: The speed control itself. Sneasler is a massive threat thanks to the abuse of Unburden which allows Sneasler to completely mollywop an enemy team with very little competition. It has SD to wallbreak, Tera Flying Acrobatics is ridiculously strong, and Dire Claw shenanigans are kinda crazy. It definitely needs to go as soon as possible.
Iron Valiant: This is indeed the most versatile Pokemon of all time, being a staple in most of the offensive meta. It is a fantastic sweeper able to fit in a variety of roles, running physical, special, and even mixed sets without much issue, as well as running Life Orb and the Choice items very well. The only thing it really lacks is that it doesn't have any utility and is fairly frail.
Tapu Lele: In a similar vein to Valiant, Tapu Lele can pretty much be slapped on any team that needs a special sweeper without much issue. I actually remember the days when the most common set people ran for Lele was a Scarf sweeper set. I am unsure what the most common set now is, but Lele still proves to be a challenge.
Sneasler: The speed control itself. Sneasler is a massive threat thanks to the abuse of Unburden which allows Sneasler to completely mollywop an enemy team with very little competition. It has SD to wallbreak, Tera Flying Acrobatics is ridiculously strong, and Dire Claw shenanigans are kinda crazy. It definitely needs to go as soon as possible.
Humble beginner question, When was the Cheese boy banned? Last time I checked it was still in over 20% of teams, and I can't find the usual announcement of its ban who I'm sure was a suspect test.
PS: Nevermind, I found the link. I feel this post should have a mention of those recent bans, so I'll mention Goldhengo having the narrowest ban I've ever seen, as well as Baxcalibur and Bloodmoon's quickban/Sneasler being the next suspect test, so people knows what is happening in the tier atm.
PS: Nevermind, I found the link. I feel this post should have a mention of those recent bans, so I'll mention Goldhengo having the narrowest ban I've ever seen, as well as Baxcalibur and Bloodmoon's quickban/Sneasler being the next suspect test, so people knows what is happening in the tier atm.
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THE STEADY RISE OF STALL...
Some of you love it, some of you hate it, but if there is one thing we all believed is that stall is dead in gen9nd.... or is it?
Ever since generation 9 came, several game changes caused stall to take a drastic pitfall to the abyss. From the Heal move's PP nerf from 16 to 8, to the faster and stronger powercreep, to anti status mons like Gholdengo and Garganacl, to Terastalization making these already powerful monsters into behemoths. For a long while, stall was considered nothing more than a noobtrap, a low ladder terror, a joke. If fact, many players believed that stall was the absolute worse archetype in the metagame, right below other archetypes also considered not very good like Sand and Trick Room. However, very recently, stall has began to see a steady rise in usage. So, how did we got here? Usually whenever a new meta starts, people mostly looks for most broken and unstoppable forces in the meta, like Baxcalibur and Bloodmoon Ursaluna were previously before they were banned, but as the storm calms down, people then start looking for answers to said treads. This is where stall comes in, as it turns out, all stall needed to do is adapt. A popular stall core nowadays is the cloddozo core, which involves Clodsire and Dondozo, as having both Unaware mons that can sponge both sides of the attacking spentrum can allow stall teams to grab momentum and make their plays. Another aspect of stall's adaptment was the change of Blissey's moveset during the time Gholdengo was in the tier. Typically Blissey mainly just ran 1 attacking move, Seismic Toss, which does a set amount of damage, and then the other moves where softboiled, status + utility. However, the problem is that it couldn't hit Gholdengo, even if it can sponge its hits well, it doesn't matter if it couldn't do anything in return. But then people started experimenting with Calm Mind Blissey (myself included) allowing it to efforthlessly wall Gholdengo, and potentially even kill it. This version of Blissey was also able to withstand Bloodmoon Ursaluna with much greater ease, while it was allowed. But recently Gholdengo was banned, and few weeks later, Baxcalibur and Bloodmoon were also banned, which opened up the posibilities for stall to thrive even more. Now Blissey or Chansey can just go back to their standard sets and Clodsire no longer needs to run Amnesia for example. A pokemon that also deserves a mention for volunteering at stall rising from the abyss is Alomomola, which after the last dlc, it gained access to Flip Turn, which may not sound like much at first, but the ability of having a slow pivot wishpasser is invaluable for many teams, not just stall. This allows stall the ability to pivot around the opponent, and keep itself healing without the need to use healing moves, granting it insane longevity. Mons like Dondozo and Ting-Lu greatly appreciate Alomomola's wishpassing, allowing them to keep up with their gameplan. This also makes Alomomola great with a Regerator core, alongside mons like Toxapex or Galar Slowking. All of these factors combined and more, have gained the interest of players to actually return to use stall once again. However it isn't without roadblocks of course, Gholdengo is gone sure, but there are still several behemoths to worry about, mons like Gliscor and Garganacl do very well against stall, and breakers like mixed Iron Valiant and Mega Gyarados can also cause issues. Other tactics like Taunt, Encore and tricking Choice items can ruin them as well. And with these new bans, the meta is currently also shifting. But if they're is one thing to be sure, is that stall is no longer dead.
Some of you love it, some of you hate it, but if there is one thing we all believed is that stall is dead in gen9nd.... or is it?
Ever since generation 9 came, several game changes caused stall to take a drastic pitfall to the abyss. From the Heal move's PP nerf from 16 to 8, to the faster and stronger powercreep, to anti status mons like Gholdengo and Garganacl, to Terastalization making these already powerful monsters into behemoths. For a long while, stall was considered nothing more than a noobtrap, a low ladder terror, a joke. If fact, many players believed that stall was the absolute worse archetype in the metagame, right below other archetypes also considered not very good like Sand and Trick Room. However, very recently, stall has began to see a steady rise in usage. So, how did we got here? Usually whenever a new meta starts, people mostly looks for most broken and unstoppable forces in the meta, like Baxcalibur and Bloodmoon Ursaluna were previously before they were banned, but as the storm calms down, people then start looking for answers to said treads. This is where stall comes in, as it turns out, all stall needed to do is adapt. A popular stall core nowadays is the cloddozo core, which involves Clodsire and Dondozo, as having both Unaware mons that can sponge both sides of the attacking spentrum can allow stall teams to grab momentum and make their plays. Another aspect of stall's adaptment was the change of Blissey's moveset during the time Gholdengo was in the tier. Typically Blissey mainly just ran 1 attacking move, Seismic Toss, which does a set amount of damage, and then the other moves where softboiled, status + utility. However, the problem is that it couldn't hit Gholdengo, even if it can sponge its hits well, it doesn't matter if it couldn't do anything in return. But then people started experimenting with Calm Mind Blissey (myself included) allowing it to efforthlessly wall Gholdengo, and potentially even kill it. This version of Blissey was also able to withstand Bloodmoon Ursaluna with much greater ease, while it was allowed. But recently Gholdengo was banned, and few weeks later, Baxcalibur and Bloodmoon were also banned, which opened up the posibilities for stall to thrive even more. Now Blissey or Chansey can just go back to their standard sets and Clodsire no longer needs to run Amnesia for example. A pokemon that also deserves a mention for volunteering at stall rising from the abyss is Alomomola, which after the last dlc, it gained access to Flip Turn, which may not sound like much at first, but the ability of having a slow pivot wishpasser is invaluable for many teams, not just stall. This allows stall the ability to pivot around the opponent, and keep itself healing without the need to use healing moves, granting it insane longevity. Mons like Dondozo and Ting-Lu greatly appreciate Alomomola's wishpassing, allowing them to keep up with their gameplan. This also makes Alomomola great with a Regerator core, alongside mons like Toxapex or Galar Slowking. All of these factors combined and more, have gained the interest of players to actually return to use stall once again. However it isn't without roadblocks of course, Gholdengo is gone sure, but there are still several behemoths to worry about, mons like Gliscor and Garganacl do very well against stall, and breakers like mixed Iron Valiant and Mega Gyarados can also cause issues. Other tactics like Taunt, Encore and tricking Choice items can ruin them as well. And with these new bans, the meta is currently also shifting. But if they're is one thing to be sure, is that stall is no longer dead.
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