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New and "creative" moveset/EV spread thread "Mark 2"
- Thread starter gengod
- Start date
- Status
Here's to more horrible gimmick sets that have netted me one kill:
Swampert @ Choice Specs
252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 Spe; Modest / Quiet
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Surf
- HP Electric / Focus Punch
Pretty obvious, really, but it's cool to see Swampert hitting stuff really hard. Focus Punch is for Blissey, I never tried it though.
Swampert @ Choice Specs
252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 Spe; Modest / Quiet
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Surf
- HP Electric / Focus Punch
Pretty obvious, really, but it's cool to see Swampert hitting stuff really hard. Focus Punch is for Blissey, I never tried it though.
This would probably better go in a "moveset help" thread, but forum search says that thread doesn't exist.
Hitmontop @ Something useful. Not sure yet.
Adamant | Technician
252 Atk, 252 Spe, 6 HP
~ Rolling Kick
~ Aerial Ace
~ Stone Edge/Pursuit
~ Mach Punch/Bullet Punch/Fake Out
I've been looking for a moveset to completely abuse Technician on Hitmontop. I haven't tested this on shoddy yet. I'm also not sure if all that speed wouldn't be better invested in HP...yea this is far from being finished. Help and criticism would be appreciated.
Anyway, if my math is right, Rolling Kick becomes a 120 BP move after Technician and STAB, the downside being its 85% accuracy; in exchange it has a 30% flinch chance and doesn't lower defenses like CC does. Aerial Ace also gets a huge boost from Technician. Stone Edge is pretty much mandatory to hit flying types for SE damage, but Pursuit is there if you'd rather kill Ghosts. Too many possible choices for slot 4. Not a huge fan of Fake Out because it's useless after one use, until switch out of course. I even considered Bulk Up to boost things even more. Thoughts?
Hitmontop @ Something useful. Not sure yet.
Adamant | Technician
252 Atk, 252 Spe, 6 HP
~ Rolling Kick
~ Aerial Ace
~ Stone Edge/Pursuit
~ Mach Punch/Bullet Punch/Fake Out
I've been looking for a moveset to completely abuse Technician on Hitmontop. I haven't tested this on shoddy yet. I'm also not sure if all that speed wouldn't be better invested in HP...yea this is far from being finished. Help and criticism would be appreciated.
Anyway, if my math is right, Rolling Kick becomes a 120 BP move after Technician and STAB, the downside being its 85% accuracy; in exchange it has a 30% flinch chance and doesn't lower defenses like CC does. Aerial Ace also gets a huge boost from Technician. Stone Edge is pretty much mandatory to hit flying types for SE damage, but Pursuit is there if you'd rather kill Ghosts. Too many possible choices for slot 4. Not a huge fan of Fake Out because it's useless after one use, until switch out of course. I even considered Bulk Up to boost things even more. Thoughts?
Look on the analysis...This would probably better go in a "moveset help" thread, but forum search says that thread doesn't exist.
Hitmontop @ Something useful. Not sure yet.
Adamant | Technician
252 Atk, 252 Spe, 6 HP
~ Rolling Kick
~ Aerial Ace
~ Stone Edge/Pursuit
~ Mach Punch/Bullet Punch/Fake Out
I've been looking for a moveset to completely abuse Technician on Hitmontop. I haven't tested this on shoddy yet. I'm also not sure if all that speed wouldn't be better invested in HP...yea this is far from being finished. Help and criticism would be appreciated.
Anyway, if my math is right, Rolling Kick becomes a 120 BP move after Technician and STAB, the downside being its 85% accuracy; in exchange it has a 30% flinch chance and doesn't lower defenses like CC does. Aerial Ace also gets a huge boost from Technician. Stone Edge is pretty much mandatory to hit flying types for SE damage, but Pursuit is there if you'd rather kill Ghosts. Too many possible choices for slot 4. Not a huge fan of Fake Out because it's useless after one use, until switch out of course. I even considered Bulk Up to boost things even more. Thoughts?
Sucker Punch/Fake Out/Mach Punch/Filler seems very potent. Max Attack, and HP.
I'm pretty sure the threat of Sucker Punch is enough to make Gengar run in terror. If I was using Gengar, I would most likely run, because there is a chance that they didn't Pursuit you (ie night slash or sucker punch) so you can get away safely.
heat wave is certainly a great addition to honchkrow, allowing him to lead more effectively without resorting to hp fire. also, on specspert, consider hammer arm to hit random blisseys and whatnot. I'd rather cc to rolling kick on technitop, so the technitop set seems largely pointless.
etc etc etc
/bad attempt to cover a large span of shit in one two-line post
etc etc etc
/bad attempt to cover a large span of shit in one two-line post
So I theorymon'd up this new set for Ambipom using those new moves he picked up in Platinum. It is designed to force the hand of the two most common suicide leads on the Suspect Ladder: Aerodactyl and Azelf (and can also handle Deoxys almost as well in Standard). Before I get into the mechanics, here's the set:
Ambipom @ Life Orb
EVs: 112 HP / 180 Atk / 216 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Ability: Technician
- Fake Out
- Return
- Ice Punch
- Taunt
The idea of the set is that, faced with either an Aerodactyl or Azelf lead, Ambipom can force them to make a choice: Either set up rocks and die, or attack Ambipom and die. Whatever they choose, their effect on the match will be significantly lowered (especially in Azelf's case, who usually likes Exploding after setting up Rocks). Deoxys gets a little more leeway, but is still forced into a decision. Here's how:
Ambipom vs Naive, 0 HP / 0 Def Suicide Azelf
Fake Out: 46.39% - 54.63%
Return: 78.35% - 92.09%
Minimum Damage: 124.74%
Ambipom vs Jolly, 4 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl
Fake Out: 23.25% - 27.57%
Ice Punch: 79.06% - 92.02%
Minimum Damage: 102.31%
Ambipom vs Timid, 252 HP / 4 Def DualScreen Deoxys
Fake Out: 35.85% - 42.76%
Return: 60.52% - 71.38%
Minimum Damage: 96.37%
As you can see, with the exception of Deoxys, Ambipom is assured comfortable 2HKO's on these common set-up leads. Even Deoxys is 2HKO'd most of the time (unless it sets up Reflect, obviously). In Azelf and Aerodactyl's case, this means they only have one turn to do anything in the match, and thanks to Taunt, Deoxys can only set up one of either Reflect/Light Screen/Stealth Rock before being forced to retreat (if Deoxys uses that turn to Taunt, it runs the risk of dying to Return. It's a guessing game, here).
But of course you may have noticed a problem: The Life Orb. In order to Fake Out + Second Attack, Ambipom will be taking 20% Life Orb recoil. On the second turn, Azelf and Aerodactyl have a chance to attack you. Can Ambipom really survive all this and still do his job?
Yes, he can.
Naive, 252 SpA Azelf Psychic vs Ambipom
63.22% - 74.60%
Jolly, 252 Atk Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs Ambipom
61.44% - 72.72%
Neither one of them can achieve the 80% necessary for Ambipom to be killed after his second recoil from Life Orb (and even if they could, Ambipom would still kill them before Life Orb kills him).
To keep the advantages coming, Ambipom hits 352 speed with the given spread, outrunning Timid Gengar and Taunting the incoming Hypnosis. Gengar's Life Orb'd Focus Blast will easily OHKO, of course, but without the risk of being put to sleep, a lot of things become better switch-ins to Gengar. Any Timid Gar running HP Ice over Focus Blast (so like, Hypnosis/Shadow Ball/Thunderbolt/HP Ice) can only 2HKO with Thunderbolt, and is 2HKO'd by the faster Ambipom with Ice Punch.
Taunt also disables the slower utility Pokemon (ie. everyone who isn't Azelf, Aerodactyl or Deoxys) from using their set-up moves at all, which means this Ambipom is capable of either stopping Stealth Rock outright, or at least making sure that whatever lays it is not going to have any further input into the match.
I haven't actually used this yet, but it looks like a lot of fun to screw with three very common leads and lower the threat level of many others. Personally, I'd recommend this for Suspect more so than Standard; The match-up against Deoxys-E is far from a sure thing, requiring a little luck on the RNG and winning the guessing game on Turn 2. Still, on paper at least he's looking like a fantastic little anti-lead.
Ambipom @ Life Orb
EVs: 112 HP / 180 Atk / 216 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Ability: Technician
- Fake Out
- Return
- Ice Punch
- Taunt
The idea of the set is that, faced with either an Aerodactyl or Azelf lead, Ambipom can force them to make a choice: Either set up rocks and die, or attack Ambipom and die. Whatever they choose, their effect on the match will be significantly lowered (especially in Azelf's case, who usually likes Exploding after setting up Rocks). Deoxys gets a little more leeway, but is still forced into a decision. Here's how:
Ambipom vs Naive, 0 HP / 0 Def Suicide Azelf
Fake Out: 46.39% - 54.63%
Return: 78.35% - 92.09%
Minimum Damage: 124.74%
Ambipom vs Jolly, 4 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl
Fake Out: 23.25% - 27.57%
Ice Punch: 79.06% - 92.02%
Minimum Damage: 102.31%
Ambipom vs Timid, 252 HP / 4 Def DualScreen Deoxys
Fake Out: 35.85% - 42.76%
Return: 60.52% - 71.38%
Minimum Damage: 96.37%
As you can see, with the exception of Deoxys, Ambipom is assured comfortable 2HKO's on these common set-up leads. Even Deoxys is 2HKO'd most of the time (unless it sets up Reflect, obviously). In Azelf and Aerodactyl's case, this means they only have one turn to do anything in the match, and thanks to Taunt, Deoxys can only set up one of either Reflect/Light Screen/Stealth Rock before being forced to retreat (if Deoxys uses that turn to Taunt, it runs the risk of dying to Return. It's a guessing game, here).
But of course you may have noticed a problem: The Life Orb. In order to Fake Out + Second Attack, Ambipom will be taking 20% Life Orb recoil. On the second turn, Azelf and Aerodactyl have a chance to attack you. Can Ambipom really survive all this and still do his job?
Yes, he can.
Naive, 252 SpA Azelf Psychic vs Ambipom
63.22% - 74.60%
Jolly, 252 Atk Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs Ambipom
61.44% - 72.72%
Neither one of them can achieve the 80% necessary for Ambipom to be killed after his second recoil from Life Orb (and even if they could, Ambipom would still kill them before Life Orb kills him).
To keep the advantages coming, Ambipom hits 352 speed with the given spread, outrunning Timid Gengar and Taunting the incoming Hypnosis. Gengar's Life Orb'd Focus Blast will easily OHKO, of course, but without the risk of being put to sleep, a lot of things become better switch-ins to Gengar. Any Timid Gar running HP Ice over Focus Blast (so like, Hypnosis/Shadow Ball/Thunderbolt/HP Ice) can only 2HKO with Thunderbolt, and is 2HKO'd by the faster Ambipom with Ice Punch.
Taunt also disables the slower utility Pokemon (ie. everyone who isn't Azelf, Aerodactyl or Deoxys) from using their set-up moves at all, which means this Ambipom is capable of either stopping Stealth Rock outright, or at least making sure that whatever lays it is not going to have any further input into the match.
I haven't actually used this yet, but it looks like a lot of fun to screw with three very common leads and lower the threat level of many others. Personally, I'd recommend this for Suspect more so than Standard; The match-up against Deoxys-E is far from a sure thing, requiring a little luck on the RNG and winning the guessing game on Turn 2. Still, on paper at least he's looking like a fantastic little anti-lead.
I don't have a whole lot of time to respond, but that looks like a good anti-lead ambipom, and I think that it's generally good for a team.
Nice set. I can imagine against Bronzong, it would taunt and switch out, or taunt and predict a switch, after fake-out of course. Otherwise, it would give him some problems.
Nice set. I can imagine against Bronzong, it would taunt and switch out, or taunt and predict a switch, after fake-out of course. Otherwise, it would give him some problems.
lead ambipom doesn't seem to be nothing new but-- I do see quite a few of them on wifi. Handles Honchkrow fairly well too (fake out, then you might want to run from super power/sucker punch). Unfortunately, that's about all it can do.
Only issue is it's absolutely screwed by gyarados/salamence, and unfortunately leadtar is pretty much stronger than you too even if you carry brick break. Heatran/Scizor (who are everywhere) also have an easy switch in. Forget facing hippo, pert, or bronzong. Gengar also wins with focus blast. Yanmega can protect your fake out, and then smack you really hard. Overall, leadpom is just not that scary imo (then again I almost always run gyara lead so . . .).
Only issue is it's absolutely screwed by gyarados/salamence, and unfortunately leadtar is pretty much stronger than you too even if you carry brick break. Heatran/Scizor (who are everywhere) also have an easy switch in. Forget facing hippo, pert, or bronzong. Gengar also wins with focus blast. Yanmega can protect your fake out, and then smack you really hard. Overall, leadpom is just not that scary imo (then again I almost always run gyara lead so . . .).
This is my very own set for Kingdra. I had been hoping for this set to come out since d/p came out and now, in Platinum, I can finally have my wish.
Naib's Kingdra: The King of Dragons (sweeper)
Item: Lum Berry
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 120 Hp, 252 Att, 136 Spe
-Dragon Dance
-Outrage
-Rest
-Waterfall
Ability: Sniper
The EV's aren't quite solid, but the moves are definitely optimal. I've tested this set on Shoddy for two whole days and have won over 75% of the time. This set is unmistakable efficient at what it needs to do. It get's STAB on both attacks and hits neutral or better damage on every single pokemon in the game barring Empoleon. The idea is to dragon dance 2-3 times and sweep. When Outrage's side effect kicks in, Lum Berry activates. Alternatively, rest can be used to stack up Dragon Dance, and then sweep. Exploding steels are able to counter this set by switching in while Kingdra is in Outrage. However, even many steels are ko'd by Outrage if Sniper kicks in. Waterfall for STAB and flinch abuse. This set works great for me and I hope it will work for everyone else.
All constructive criticism is appreciated.
Edit: Srry, i meant Att, not SpA
Item: Lum Berry
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 120 Hp, 252 Att, 136 Spe
-Dragon Dance
-Outrage
-Rest
-Waterfall
Ability: Sniper
The EV's aren't quite solid, but the moves are definitely optimal. I've tested this set on Shoddy for two whole days and have won over 75% of the time. This set is unmistakable efficient at what it needs to do. It get's STAB on both attacks and hits neutral or better damage on every single pokemon in the game barring Empoleon. The idea is to dragon dance 2-3 times and sweep. When Outrage's side effect kicks in, Lum Berry activates. Alternatively, rest can be used to stack up Dragon Dance, and then sweep. Exploding steels are able to counter this set by switching in while Kingdra is in Outrage. However, even many steels are ko'd by Outrage if Sniper kicks in. Waterfall for STAB and flinch abuse. This set works great for me and I hope it will work for everyone else.
All constructive criticism is appreciated.
Edit: Srry, i meant Att, not SpA
In a metagame where every single team is: Scizor/Heatran/Salamence/Shaymin/Bulky Water/(Lead or Tyranitar-Gengar-Mamo)
At least this Kingdra has a place (bulky [sorta] water). At least this one is not weak to seed flare lol. Now all you have to do is find a lead and your team is all set. That or Tyranitar-Gengar-Mamo[/end cynicism]
At least this Kingdra has a place (bulky [sorta] water). At least this one is not weak to seed flare lol. Now all you have to do is find a lead and your team is all set. That or Tyranitar-Gengar-Mamo[/end cynicism]
Wait, what? Salamence? An Intimidated Ice Punch does 82.17% minimum, a 2HKO without Ambipom even taking damage thanks to Fake Out (16.61% minimum, so okay it won't 2HKO if both attacks do absolute minimum damage). I don't know if you meant leading Salamence specifically, but Salamence certainly can't switch in against it first-turn anyway, so... yeah I don't get how Salamence screws it?
Fake Out is doing roughly the same minimum to Gyarados, and then you're being Taunted while your non-boosted, Adamant/252 Atk LO Waterfall is pretty unlikely to KO Ambipom even with LO recoil factored in (you've got a 30% chance of getting the kill). If Ambipom survives, you're taking 41.56% minimum from a -1 Return. Let's calculate that: 16% from Fake Out, 10% from Life Orb, 41.56% from Return and a further 10% from Life Orb as you kill Ambi. That's 77.56%. I don't know about you, but I'd hardly say Gyarados "screws" this Ambipom; You might be killing my anti-lead, but I'm crippling an extremely powerful Pokemon. Doesn't sound like a bad trade.
Adamant LO Honchkrow has the same chance of killing Ambipom with Sucker Punch as Adamant LO Gyarados does with Waterfall. Unlike Gyarados, that Honckrow has a 0% chance of surviving Fake Out + Return/Ice Punch.
The other things you mentioned are problematic, but they can all be Taunted and while I haven't run calcs I think Ambipom can survive whatever they might throw at him unboosted. Aside from Heatran and Tyranitar who Ambipom will run from (unless maybe DD or Stealth Rock is expected from Tyranitar, although mispredicting and getting a LO Stone Edge won't be nice).
I'm not saying this is the best Pokemon ever but it certainly has more use than you're making out.
edit: I just ran some calcs, and it turns out that if outspeeding Gengar and Taunting him isn't that big of an issue, we can drop 64 EVs from Speed (dropping Ambipom down to 334 Speed, the old "beats-Garchomp" magic number) and add them to HP, giving Ambipom 176 HP EVs. This way, he takes a maximum of 89.85% from Gyarados' Waterfall and Honchkrow's Sucker Punch, ensuring him the kill of Honckrow and the crippling of Gyarados. I think that is actually better than outspeeding Gengar, so I'm changing the spread slightly:
Ambipom @ Life Orb
EVs: 176 HP / 180 Atk / 152 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Ability: Technician
- Fake Out
- Return
- Ice Punch
- Taunt
@Subversion-- let me be more specific then because this is really what I had in mind: You're fucked by Intimidate, and steel types. It's easy to think of Fake out as a free turn and a bit of damage, but it's not. It, like protect, is weak to a good predicted switch (and since technician STAB fake out is ambipom's #1 go to toy, it's too damn predictable). Every team is carrying Scizor these days, and if they aren't they're carrying metagross, or at least Heatran or Jirachi. Any of these pokemon can read your fake out (or really wall you completely) and would love to switch in and set up or smack your next pokemon really really hard. You won't get a lot of success over the long run if your lose Ambipom half the time while trying to taunt to stop Agility/Swords Dance while getting hit by U-Turn/Bullet Punch/Meteor Mash (potentially CB'd), if you run you let them set up, and even if you do predict taunt correctly, they still get to get at least 1 turn to smack something. Meanwhile, as long as said steel type is around (along with enemy ttar or whatever), ambi is essentially sitting on the bench and you're playing 5-6 the rest of the game. Getting hit by intimidate from a leadmence or gyara only to be fucked more by a steel switch in who can essentially shake off your fake out with leftovers is just humiliating.
I guess the point of this post would be that this ambipom is such easy set-up bait, pokemon like Gyara or Salamence don't even need to stay in on it to have it beat.
In retrospect, my issue with Ambi is not that his coverage as a lead is imperfect (afterall, pretty much everything is imperfect), but the fact that he can't really do anything if he fails and you're stuck with almost a 5-6 battle. The suicide leads are designed to achieve their mission almost sure-fire (though imo, paying too much of a price by sacrificing), but offensive leads like TTar and Gyarados, even if they can't beat the enemy lead, they are still useful later on-- they also keep the enemy guessing because they are major threats.
I guess the point of this post would be that this ambipom is such easy set-up bait, pokemon like Gyara or Salamence don't even need to stay in on it to have it beat.
In retrospect, my issue with Ambi is not that his coverage as a lead is imperfect (afterall, pretty much everything is imperfect), but the fact that he can't really do anything if he fails and you're stuck with almost a 5-6 battle. The suicide leads are designed to achieve their mission almost sure-fire (though imo, paying too much of a price by sacrificing), but offensive leads like TTar and Gyarados, even if they can't beat the enemy lead, they are still useful later on-- they also keep the enemy guessing because they are major threats.
I have been theorymoning up a Lead Raichu...
Raichu @ Focus Sash
Hasty
252 Speed, 234 Sp. Atk, 24 Atk (very loose, need some help)
-T-Bolt
-Fake Out
-Grass Knot/HP Ice/Grass
-T-Wave/Knock Off/Focus Punch/Sweet Kiss
Come out, start with a bit of a Fake Out. Maybe go a little more ATK EVs, I have no idea right now. Then, T-Wave or Knock Off on their lead, or whoever they decide to switch to. You'll be guaranteed to get his off due to the Sash. I just got a hold of a Hasty Surf Pikachu, but unfortunately Fake Out is an Egg Move.
You might be able to predict a Ground Switch and hit them with a GKnot or HP. With some SR support, Raichu can act as a poor man's Ambipom but with the abillity to cripple with T-Wave. Its fairly fast with 100 base speed, so you can switch it out after the Sash fades and bring it in when you have a Free Switch. Focus Punch with more Attack EVS for Blissey if you are brave as hell. Or, take it into UU as a new poor man's Ambipom. If you are even ballsier than the average Chu user, you can try Sweet Kiss...but sounds 75% chance to take a chance is not appealing with this piece of glass.
Raichu @ Focus Sash
Hasty
252 Speed, 234 Sp. Atk, 24 Atk (very loose, need some help)
-T-Bolt
-Fake Out
-Grass Knot/HP Ice/Grass
-T-Wave/Knock Off/Focus Punch/Sweet Kiss
Come out, start with a bit of a Fake Out. Maybe go a little more ATK EVs, I have no idea right now. Then, T-Wave or Knock Off on their lead, or whoever they decide to switch to. You'll be guaranteed to get his off due to the Sash. I just got a hold of a Hasty Surf Pikachu, but unfortunately Fake Out is an Egg Move.
You might be able to predict a Ground Switch and hit them with a GKnot or HP. With some SR support, Raichu can act as a poor man's Ambipom but with the abillity to cripple with T-Wave. Its fairly fast with 100 base speed, so you can switch it out after the Sash fades and bring it in when you have a Free Switch. Focus Punch with more Attack EVS for Blissey if you are brave as hell. Or, take it into UU as a new poor man's Ambipom. If you are even ballsier than the average Chu user, you can try Sweet Kiss...but sounds 75% chance to take a chance is not appealing with this piece of glass.
PURE THEORYMON TIME
Solrock @ Leftovers
252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef; Calm
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Light Screen / Will-o-wisp
- Explosion
A fantastic counter to Heatran and Azelf with Sand support. He resists Fire, Ground, Psychic, Normal, and doesn't weigh very much for Grass Knot, meaning switching in on these two is trivial. The best Heatran can do, a Choice Specs Fire Blast, fails to 2HKO without 2 straight hits, Stealth Rock, and good damage both times. Meanwhile, he has a pretty potent Earthquake to hurt him with. Azelf can't begin to touch him without Shadow Ball either.
Will-o-wisp or Light Screen is dependent on how you want to support the team. Explosion kicks ass as always and is just there to go out with a bang.
Solrock @ Leftovers
252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef; Calm
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Light Screen / Will-o-wisp
- Explosion
A fantastic counter to Heatran and Azelf with Sand support. He resists Fire, Ground, Psychic, Normal, and doesn't weigh very much for Grass Knot, meaning switching in on these two is trivial. The best Heatran can do, a Choice Specs Fire Blast, fails to 2HKO without 2 straight hits, Stealth Rock, and good damage both times. Meanwhile, he has a pretty potent Earthquake to hurt him with. Azelf can't begin to touch him without Shadow Ball either.
Will-o-wisp or Light Screen is dependent on how you want to support the team. Explosion kicks ass as always and is just there to go out with a bang.
- Status