that was my origional idea, with timid. fire blast would be good, but i have terrible luck with accuracy but i'll give it a shot. i think i will go with dragon pulse for now. thanks.
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New and "creative" moveset/EV spread thread. Mk. 3
- Thread starter Tangerine
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Ability: Keen Eye
Nature: Bold (+Def -Atk)
EV: 252 HP, 252 DEF, 6 SpAtk
@Leftover
-ShadowBall/DarkPulse
-Will-O-Wisp
-Recover
-CalmMind
I've already tried this Sabley on WI-FI and I must say, he can be damn annoying.
First of all you must play him against physical Attackers, else he would be OHKO by Special Attackers (or 2), and he will survive for sure a physical Attack and with W-o-W of course, the Atk Stats will become lower. The first move to use is W-o-W, so that Sableye can survive a few more hits. Than, depends how much HP he has, you use CalmMind or Recover. Meanwhile when you are boosting your Stats, your Opponent will be burning, except if he changes the PKMN. And when you think the right moment is there, attack with ShadowBall or DarkPulse. ShadowBall has the better option to lower the SpDef of the opponents PKMN, but has no effect against Normal PKMN so for those who wants, you can use DarkPulse.
After a few CalmMinds, Sableye will survive some SpAttackers
There are maybe People who will tell that Spiritomp is better in Stats, wich is true, just Sableye has a better Recovery Move. And btw, you can use him in UU.
I wrote that its better against certain special sweepers, namely its better against infernape which regular skarmbliss cant stop. It can KO back Heatran, infernape and salamence (with SR) without posing an "inmediate threat", by this I mean that ppl will normally expect to kill the physical tank with an special attack to get a surprise. I didnt mean to replace blissey, im just saying its immune to regular spec. walls weaknesses, namely fighting moves and explosion (pretty common if you ask me).
Good set, but bad Pokemon. It'd be pretty good in NU and earn you some cool points in UU, but uh.... 50/75/75/65/65/50 isn't a great set of base stats.
Ability: Keen Eye
Nature: Bold (+Def -Atk)
EV: 252 HP, 252 DEF, 6 SpAtk
@Leftover
-ShadowBall/DarkPulse
-Will-O-Wisp
-Recover
-CalmMind
Hey, if it's been working well for you, props.
You should use Dark Pulse over Shadow Ball so Normal types with status healing moves don't wall this. The flinch chance isn't really useful, but oh well.
I'm going to preface this by saying that I know this isn't that New or "Creative", but it's not listed on the strategy page and it's a real monster
SubOrbSwine:
Mamoswine @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 Attack/ 4 Def/ 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly
Ability: Snow Cloak
Moves:
Ice Shard
Earthquake
Stone Edge
Substitute
Simple enough, bring Mamo in on one of the many choiced Electric attacks flying around (SpecsJolt's Tbolt, ScarfZone's Tbolt, ScarfRotom's Tbolt) or on Blissey's Thunderwave and set up a Substitute as they switch out. This also helps Mamo not be completely ruined by the ever so common CB Scizor, as it can get a solid EQ in while Scizor breaks his sub, dealing roughly 60%. But behind a sub, you get a "free" hit on their Mamo counter, which is often enough to break open a team and result in multiple KOs.
SubOrbSwine:
Mamoswine @ Life Orb
EVs: 252 Attack/ 4 Def/ 252 Speed
Nature: Jolly
Ability: Snow Cloak
Moves:
Ice Shard
Earthquake
Stone Edge
Substitute
Simple enough, bring Mamo in on one of the many choiced Electric attacks flying around (SpecsJolt's Tbolt, ScarfZone's Tbolt, ScarfRotom's Tbolt) or on Blissey's Thunderwave and set up a Substitute as they switch out. This also helps Mamo not be completely ruined by the ever so common CB Scizor, as it can get a solid EQ in while Scizor breaks his sub, dealing roughly 60%. But behind a sub, you get a "free" hit on their Mamo counter, which is often enough to break open a team and result in multiple KOs.
To Wildfire, your set does interest me, you might mention something Hail being used but I guess that's a given. Life Orb and Substitute is never a good idea since you will be losing a lot of damage. Why run Ice Shard with Jolly run Ice Fang for the extra power since with Jolly you don't get as much damage output from Ice Shard. Also Bronzong walls you and thats your best Counter so you wont be doing a lot of damage.
With Life Orb, Stealth Rock, and Substitute you will be losing too much damage, u only get 2 switch ins since on one switch in you should lose around 47% with Stealth Rock, Substitute, and Life Orb, not very productive, Leftovers seems better.
Also the name of this thread is to be New and Creative, this seems like Life Orb set with a slightly different EV Spread and Substitute over Blizzard.
I like the idea but the set could use some work.
With Life Orb, Stealth Rock, and Substitute you will be losing too much damage, u only get 2 switch ins since on one switch in you should lose around 47% with Stealth Rock, Substitute, and Life Orb, not very productive, Leftovers seems better.
Also the name of this thread is to be New and Creative, this seems like Life Orb set with a slightly different EV Spread and Substitute over Blizzard.
I like the idea but the set could use some work.
Hail isn't necessary at all, I run it in Sandstorm actually. Snow Cloak is just chosen because it is the better ability overall. In fact, if you're running Hail, Blizzard becomes a better option for that last slot and you may as well just run the standard MixMamo.
As for Ice Fang vs. Ice Shard, I completely disagree, as most things that I want to be Icing are a lot faster than Mamo: Salamence, Flygon, Latias Zapdos, etc. The beauty of this set is that many teams are LO Mamo weak due to the abundance of Steel and Dragon types in Standard, but their checks for it are things like Choice Scarf Heatran/Magnezone, who get reamed by Earthquake after Sub eats their attack and then their entire team. Earthquake outspeeds and OHKOs common threats like Adamant Lucario, Jolly Tyranitar, and Timid Heatran
As for LO versus Leftovers, LO is definitely the way to go. Sub isn't necessary on every switch in, just the ones where you're fairly sure the opponent is going to switch out. Also, being immune to Sandstorm and Hail increases his longevity a bit. Frequently, once Mamo is in and gets a Sub up, it's game over for the opponent, or at very least he loses 2-3 Pokemon before dying, so multiple switch-ins isn't a problem.
Also I prefaced the post by saying that I knew it wasn't too New or Creative, but it certainly works.
Yes, Sub + SR + 1 Attack is about half of Mamo's HP, but it still has the other 50% to use 6 more attacks, which will more often than not sweep a team with a Mamo Weak (which is more than you'd think). If you're really worried about it, run a Wish passer or Leech Seed Passer, but it works better than you might think. I have to reiterate, don't Sub unless you've got a good idea of what their team consists of and can sweep through most of what you've seen.
What team is not mamo-weak? I've run a team with Gyarados, Infernape and Scizor and still been swept by Mamo on occasion.
Metagross@Life Orb/Leftovers/Choice Specs
Nautre: Modest
252 HP/236 Sp. Attack/12 Def/8 Spe
1. Psychic
2. Flash Cannon
3. Signal Beam/Icy Wind
4. HP Ice/Ground
I have had moderate success. It always takes out the opponent's Physical Wall. Metagross's base Sp. Attack is 95, which isn't THAT bad. On the contrary, it's quite decent. Psychic/Flash Cannon are two powerful STABS, Signal Beam for Cresselia/Celebi/Darks/Psychics, and any Hidden Power of your choice for coverage.
Icy Wind+HP Ground provides great coverage capable of sweeping most teams. HP Electric may also be an option.
If Metagross was allowed in UU this would be decent, but seeing as it won't ever be (hopefully) this is a very bad idea. In OU, a pokemon needs an attacking base stat of at least 100 or extra bulk/speed. This Metagross set doesn't have that luxury. In addition, Blissey ruins this set, setting up all it wants (and possibly using Flamethrower!) while you do jack shit to it. Also, going up against a special sweeper means getting hit with moves such as Fire Blast, Surf, Earth Power, Thunder(bolt), etc. Metagross' special defense is relatively low, so these will hurt from Pokemon like Heatran, aforementioned Blissey, Shaymin, Vaporeon, Salamence, occasionally Tyranitar, Infernape, Latias(yes it is OU without Soul Dew), Gengar, Zapdos, etc.
Metagross@Life Orb/Leftovers/Choice Specs
Nature: Modest
252 HP/236 Sp. Attack/12 Def/8 Spe
1. Psychic
2. Flash Cannon
3. Signal Beam/Icy Wind
4. HP Ice/Ground
I have had moderate success. It always takes out the opponent's Physical Wall. Metagross's base Sp. Attack is 95, which isn't THAT bad. On the contrary, it's quite decent. Psychic/Flash Cannon are two powerful STABS, Signal Beam for Cresselia/Celebi/Darks/Psychics, and any Hidden Power of your choice for coverage.
Icy Wind+HP Ground provides great coverage capable of sweeping most teams. HP Electric may also be an option.
A sweeper Pokemon usually needs all the attack/special atk it can get, and then a lot of speed.
Steel-type attacks get horrible type coverage. With 135 base Attack, you can get away with using Steel-type moves on Metagross like the powerful Meteor Mash and prioritized Bullet Punch, but a simple 80-power special move coming from Metagross' 95 special attack is terrible.
If you want a Metagross set like this, read Metagross' analysis page. It has a mixed set that may appeal to you.
I guess people didn't see the moderate success part? I too was skeptical, but I tried out when i was bored and it DID work. Sure may not the best ever, but it gets the job done. Maybe the set I provided could have HP Fire or Grass Knot, but with or without those additions it does work. People should try out wierd looking set BEFORE they try to argue it's usefulness. I'm not flaming anyone, but I know what it's like question a set that seems that it may fail, only to be surprised and proved wrong.
"Not a toxic stall Infernape":
Infernape (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 HP / 192 Spd / 60 Atk
Naive nature (+Spd, -SAtk/SDef)
- U-Turn
- Toxic
- Taunt
- Fire Blast / Close Combat
This Infernape relies on your opponent sending out regular Infernape counters. Vaporeon, Latias, Cresselia, Zapdos, Hippowdon, Swampert, Salamence, Dragonite - None of these things like getting Toxicked, since they are usually running recovery moves that do not remove status (Roost, Recover, Wish) which severely limits their walling ability. Once Toxic is in play, you predict. Walls such as the above will usually want to recover any damage, safe in the knowledge that your Infernape will switch out - so you Taunt their recovery while Toxic whittles them away. If your opponent still has most of their HP, they may try to hit you - this is your cue to scoot right out of there with U-Turn. If you've managed to Taunt them, you can safely switch to a bulky sweeper with the knowledge that there is no Thunder-Wave or Will-o-Wisp on the way.
I have paired the above Infernape with CBTyranitar - Pursuit will do a lot of damage to the Psychics and Ghosts who like to come in on Infernape. This can often clear the way for a physical sweeper like Metagross, Salamence or Gyarados without fear of being walled or crippled.
The EVs and nature are debatable... I've just used what seems to be standard - perhaps there is a magic speed or a magic attack stat but I haven't figured them out yet. He needs to be fast, though!
Infernape (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 HP / 192 Spd / 60 Atk
Naive nature (+Spd, -SAtk/SDef)
- U-Turn
- Toxic
- Taunt
- Fire Blast / Close Combat
This Infernape relies on your opponent sending out regular Infernape counters. Vaporeon, Latias, Cresselia, Zapdos, Hippowdon, Swampert, Salamence, Dragonite - None of these things like getting Toxicked, since they are usually running recovery moves that do not remove status (Roost, Recover, Wish) which severely limits their walling ability. Once Toxic is in play, you predict. Walls such as the above will usually want to recover any damage, safe in the knowledge that your Infernape will switch out - so you Taunt their recovery while Toxic whittles them away. If your opponent still has most of their HP, they may try to hit you - this is your cue to scoot right out of there with U-Turn. If you've managed to Taunt them, you can safely switch to a bulky sweeper with the knowledge that there is no Thunder-Wave or Will-o-Wisp on the way.
I have paired the above Infernape with CBTyranitar - Pursuit will do a lot of damage to the Psychics and Ghosts who like to come in on Infernape. This can often clear the way for a physical sweeper like Metagross, Salamence or Gyarados without fear of being walled or crippled.
The EVs and nature are debatable... I've just used what seems to be standard - perhaps there is a magic speed or a magic attack stat but I haven't figured them out yet. He needs to be fast, though!
Just saying you had 'moderate success' doesn't mean a damn thing. Why not post a few good logs?
If you had HP Fire and maybe Explosion that set could be decent, but the way you made doesn't seem very good at all.
Explosion, why didn't I think of that? Lol, I'll try it out. Thanks!
Why not have 252 Speed/192 HP for more Speed? Other than that, I must say that set can catch people by surprise. Good job.m0nkfish said:
The "Not a Toxic Stall Infernape" set seems very reliant on prediction. If you predict incorrectly even once, Infernape could get hit with something like a STAB Thunderbolt or Surf. Some of the aforementioned Infernape counters often carry healing moves, such as Rest or, in Latias's case, Refresh. Many of the Pokemon listed wouldn't even switch into Infernape because Mixape could 2HKO or OHKO them, such as Swampert and Hippowdon. When you have an Infernape in, and you expect a counter to enter play, it would usually be just as effective to U-Turn out of the situation instead of running a dubiously viable move to deal with a few Pokemon.
Yeah, that's why I haven't posted it as a suggestion for the article. Prediction is the whole point - and it is why the set is not massively successful, because everyone gets things wrong. However, Infernape's reputation lends itself well to predicting a counter.
I suggest making this set more so that it can take out standard Metagross counters. Meteor Mash with Life Orb, no Attack EVs, and a Neutral Nature will still 2HKO 0/252 Bold Blissey with Rocks and Leftovers taken into account. This gives you your "STAB", now everything else can be made to cover specific threats or for overall type coverage. Grass Knot takes on Hippowdon and Swampert, two common switch-ins. HP Fire is for Skarmory, Forretress, Scizor, etc. The set can be rounded out with a number of options: Explosion for the standard free KO, Earthquake for coverage against Magnezone/Heatran, or Psychic for his strongest Special STAB.
Metagross@Life Orb/Leftovers/Choice Specs
Nautre: Modest
252 HP/236 Sp. Attack/12 Def/8 Spe
1. Psychic
2. Flash Cannon
3. Signal Beam/Icy Wind
4. HP Ice/Ground
I have had moderate success. It always takes out the opponent's Physical Wall. Metagross's base Sp. Attack is 95, which isn't THAT bad. On the contrary, it's quite decent. Psychic/Flash Cannon are two powerful STABS, Signal Beam for Cresselia/Celebi/Darks/Psychics, and any Hidden Power of your choice for coverage.
Icy Wind+HP Ground provides great coverage capable of sweeping most teams. HP Electric may also be an option.
You know, I was recently thinking of trying out Special Metagross too, but it really doesn't have the best moves for it. Steel and Psychic are pretty bad attacking types, and most of its other special attacks are pretty weak.
Metagross@Life Orb/Leftovers/Choice Specs
Nautre: Modest
252 HP/236 Sp. Attack/12 Def/8 Spe
1. Psychic
2. Flash Cannon
3. Signal Beam/Icy Wind
4. HP Ice/Ground
Now, if I were you, I'd add Shadow Ball to smack Metagross's major counter, Rotom (if you predict it switching in), and Trick with Choice Specs to screw up Blissey somewhat. And throw a physical attack on somewhere so that monster attack doesn't go to waste (and you can actually do decent damage without your Specs). Maybe also Grass Knot or HP Fire like people are suggesting.
Well, it has 130 base Defense, I'd call that "extra bulk". Coupled with its awesome type combo, it can get in pretty easily. The thing is, having a special set can let it surprise a few things that usually counter it... if you have the right moves.Articblast said:
Ok, first of all, I have to disagree with the statement that a pokemon needs 100+ base offensive to do decent damage in OU (Arctic, if you really believe that, you are a moron). I think the perfect anti-case to this is Sub-Boah, who can even perform extremely well with Modest, all-special f-thrower/ice beam/dark pulse. Not only does this boah destroy common switch ins like Steel Types, Heracross, Breloom, and even has a chance of killing relaxed swamperts (they could very well get killed if they switch in on dark pulse or take a turn to sr, or get flinched), but it easily sets up on weaker special attackers like Jolteon, and destroys Rotom-A (who never switches out fearing pursuit, and always takes a turn to reflect/w-o-w only to get blasted by dark pulse).
Also Sub-Tar destroys Blissey if it has focus punch, and even without focus punch Blissey can do nothing to TTar's massive special defense, superior speed and 101 subs. TTar can stay in and fight until blissey has to heal, and then switch in a fighting type teammate on the heal-turn. If Blissey lacks seismic toss, TTar can even pp stall it to death (Obi's Toxic-fthrower-wish-protect blissey always loses 1 on 1 to sub-ttar, even without any physical attacks).
Also, relaxed pert commonly carries special attacks. The point is that you don't need a monster special attack stat to hit hard in OU. However, if you do use a 95- offensive stat you need either a ridiculously powerful move (like explosion), or you need to play at weaknesses, especially weaknesses of common switch ins.
I'd agree that metagross probably needs HP Fire, and maybe Grass Knot for swampert. Also, how is this a set if you've listed 3 different items for it? -.-
Anyway, there was my blurb on using weaker offensive stats, though I doubt special metagross would ever be as good as special TTar, as 101 subs really do make a difference with that pink bitch around.
Also Sub-Tar destroys Blissey if it has focus punch, and even without focus punch Blissey can do nothing to TTar's massive special defense, superior speed and 101 subs. TTar can stay in and fight until blissey has to heal, and then switch in a fighting type teammate on the heal-turn. If Blissey lacks seismic toss, TTar can even pp stall it to death (Obi's Toxic-fthrower-wish-protect blissey always loses 1 on 1 to sub-ttar, even without any physical attacks).
Also, relaxed pert commonly carries special attacks. The point is that you don't need a monster special attack stat to hit hard in OU. However, if you do use a 95- offensive stat you need either a ridiculously powerful move (like explosion), or you need to play at weaknesses, especially weaknesses of common switch ins.
I'd agree that metagross probably needs HP Fire, and maybe Grass Knot for swampert. Also, how is this a set if you've listed 3 different items for it? -.-
Anyway, there was my blurb on using weaker offensive stats, though I doubt special metagross would ever be as good as special TTar, as 101 subs really do make a difference with that pink bitch around.
ArcticBlast: This is completely incorrect. The aforementioned Tyraniboah is a great example, but Nidoking can rip some shit up too(I run Earth Power, Superpower, Megahorn/Ice Beam, and Thunderbolt).
Sure, you need versatility to utilize attacking stats, but it isn't fair to say that you need 100+ offensive stats to utilize the moves.
I think that Metagross would be awesome, since most Rotom-A I see don't invest in Special Defense too often(don't know why with Reflect/WoW), and Shadow Ball would easily 2HKO.
Sure, you need versatility to utilize attacking stats, but it isn't fair to say that you need 100+ offensive stats to utilize the moves.
I think that Metagross would be awesome, since most Rotom-A I see don't invest in Special Defense too often(don't know why with Reflect/WoW), and Shadow Ball would easily 2HKO.
As regards to > 99 Offensive stats, keep in mind some items really do negate this... Think Life Orb Shiftry... in Ubers! With only base 90 Special Attack. Or LO Kingdra without Dragon Dance.
Heck, some people even use Abomasnow with hardly any offensive EVs and just depend on Blizzard and Wood Hammer to do damage based on their high base power.
And remember, an Adamant Choice Banded Relincath's Head Smash is stronger than a Life Orb Rhyperior's Stone Edge/EQ.
Also CB Dugtrio, (Gyro Ball, Explosion, EQ) Bronzong, Special Electivire, etc. don't mind using their "weaker" offensive stats to do some serious damage, either due to Base Power or their items.
Also several Pokemon with higher Base Attack/SpA. don't hold boosting items, making weaker offensively oriented Pokemon with boosting items more viable sweepers.
(think 130 Breloom vs 95 Atk Kingdra):
Max Atk + Adamant Breloom (Toxic Orb) = 394
Max Atk + Adamant Kingdra (Life Orb) = 412
Which is 18 higher Attack, not to mention it can sweep with Rain Dance to increase its Power and Speed, and has great STAB coverage, plus its moves (barring Focus Punch) are stronger, and even when including Focus Punch, Kingdra's often forgotten Hydro Pump can out damage it under Rain.
Ultimately remember the use of items commonly attached to weaker offense oriented Pokemon in addition to the base power of their most common moves before determining them "too weak" to be offensive.
Heck, some people even use Abomasnow with hardly any offensive EVs and just depend on Blizzard and Wood Hammer to do damage based on their high base power.
And remember, an Adamant Choice Banded Relincath's Head Smash is stronger than a Life Orb Rhyperior's Stone Edge/EQ.
Also CB Dugtrio, (Gyro Ball, Explosion, EQ) Bronzong, Special Electivire, etc. don't mind using their "weaker" offensive stats to do some serious damage, either due to Base Power or their items.
Also several Pokemon with higher Base Attack/SpA. don't hold boosting items, making weaker offensively oriented Pokemon with boosting items more viable sweepers.
(think 130 Breloom vs 95 Atk Kingdra):
Max Atk + Adamant Breloom (Toxic Orb) = 394
Max Atk + Adamant Kingdra (Life Orb) = 412
Which is 18 higher Attack, not to mention it can sweep with Rain Dance to increase its Power and Speed, and has great STAB coverage, plus its moves (barring Focus Punch) are stronger, and even when including Focus Punch, Kingdra's often forgotten Hydro Pump can out damage it under Rain.
Ultimately remember the use of items commonly attached to weaker offense oriented Pokemon in addition to the base power of their most common moves before determining them "too weak" to be offensive.
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