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Non-Ubers in Ubers Discussion

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by DittoCrow, Sep 1, 2012.

  1. DittoCrow

    DittoCrow
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    As we all know, Ubers is full of the most powerful Pokemon in the game. This doesn't give much room for lower tier Pokemon to shine, as they are usually too weak to handle stuff like Groudon. However, there are a few Pokemon that have niches in the Ubers metagame and are in lower tiers, such as Terrakion from OU or even Kabutops from all the way down in RU. Most new players normally wouldn't think about using these Pokemon in such a high-powered tier, so this thread will be used to explore and discuss the roles of Pokemon in the Ubers metagame who are not actually Uber themselves! Post any non-uber that you think is usable in the Ubers metagame, so we can discuss the sets that they should be using and other traits about that Pokemon.

    I'll start it off I guess:

    Terrakion

    Terrakion is a great Pokemon in OU, but I also feel that it does well in Ubers. Its Rock typing gives it some good resists, such as a resistance to ExtremeSpeed from ExtremeKiller Arceus and Sacred Fire from Ho-Oh. With a Choice Scarf, Terrakion can outspeed and deal massive damage to these threats with one of its STAB moves; Close Combat does major damage to Arceus and Stone Edge OHKOes Ho-Oh. Close Combat also hits a lot of other Pokemon in the metagame for super effective damage, such as Arceus Steel and Rock, Darkrai, and Dialga. This makes Terrakion a pretty good revenge killer in my opinion, and it can do a good amount of damage to certain teams. I found that Terrakion has some trouble with Groudon and Giratina-O, but neither have reliable recovery, so the rest of Terrakion's team can wear them down. If your team doesn't have a solid counter to Terrakion, such as a bulky Ghost-type, Terrakion will make for a great revenge killer. I haven't really used many of the other sets, since I'm fairly new to Ubers, so maybe someone else can discuss that if they know another cool set :3.

    Also, please discuss some other Pokemon while you're at it! Good posts in this thread can help you earn the "Best Forum Poster" Award!
  2. cmurph

    cmurph

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    Isn't there already a thread on this? http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3449451

    The only non-uber I've used extensively is Kingdra, although I've also been successful with Kabutops on occasion. Kabutops is a great addition to any rain team that wants some extra security against EK Arceus. I used a choice band with waterfall, superpower, stone edge, and rapid spin (not the best option for this slot, I just really wanted a spinner). This set has great power, perfect coverage, amazing speed and that great normal resistance. In other words its a perfect revenge killer for the Ubers metagame. Just watch out for Giratina.

    Choice specs Kingdra is similar to Choice Band Kabutops. You lose the ability to counter EK arceus, but you gain quite a bit of extra killing power thanks to hydro pump and draco meteor. Hydro Pump smashes through everything except for Latias, Palkia and Giratina, and those are taken care of easily by Draco Meteor. Even Ferrothorn can't switch into hydro pump without getting 3khod before it can kill you with power whip. Surf and Dragon Pulse round out the set by giving you more reliable sweeping moves that still pack quite a punch
  3. pwnage77

    pwnage77

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    Scizor

    We all know about Scizor's great typing, well defensively speaking. It's got an underrated bulk for Ubers but still quite good thanks to being a Steel-type resisting the all common Dragon-type moves that run rampant in Ubers. What makes it so threatening? No, it's not just its type and reliable recovery (hi Forretress). It has 130 base attack stat and the ability to counter most choiced Dragons. It's not limited to Dragons only but it can also be used to screw over Darkrai and Shaymin-S. Due to their weak defense and Scizor's STAB Technician Bullet Punch, which is also a priority move, there is little to fear from these Pokemon. It's not just that. Scizor resists their STAB moves bar Shaymin-S' Air Slash but Scizor fears little of this move as Bullet Punch will go first meaning the Flinch rate of Air Slash doesn't matter. However, due to the rise of Regenerator Ho-Oh (or any Ho-Oh in general), Scizor is pretty easily walled. Add in Giratina and you've got your Scizor having a hard time (Bullet) punching holes into your opponent's team. This is where U-turn comes in. You can simply U-turn out, see his Pokemon, and bring in a solid counter. I'm not saying that Ho-Oh has a solid counter (IMO, its true counter is Stealth Rock), but Terrakion is a good partner since with Scarf, Ho-Oh cannot hope to outspeed. However, with pros comes with cons. Scizor's typing gives it a lot of resistances but with a single 4x Fire weakness. This is why Kyogre is a good partner. Not only does Kyogre bring rain, but it also can threaten out Scizor's checks namely Ho-Oh, Giratina, Groudon, and Lugia.

    Well I can't think of a good closing so I'll end it here.
  4. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    Alright, so like cmurph said, this thread is extremely similar to this one as it is right now. (Silly DC <3) Thus, I'm going to give it a twist over the other one.

    Each 2 or 3 days, we will have a discussion about the specific Pokemon we will talk about. Now, because DittoCrow started the thread with Terrakion, we'll do Terrakion first. I don't want to hear any "LOL BEST OFFENSIVE EKILLER CHECK YADA YADA", I want to discuss other sets rather than Choice Scarf. I want you to discuss what can counter it effectively, outside of its normal counters. I want you to basically analyze the Pokemon, what can it do and what stops it, thoroughly. This shold give this thread a niche over the other one, which is simply "I like x cuz its good in this meta XP".
  5. polop

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    Why is nobody posting ;_;.

    I tried Sub Swords Dance Terrakion a bit later after Poppy posted it and I can testify to its effectiveness at luring in BOTH of the spin blockers and swiftly eliminating both of them with a +2 Stone Edge. Terrakion can even set up Swords Dances in front of Giratina-a if it lacks Roar which lets it become a fantastic stall breaker, seeing that the other Great Wall, Lugia, is OHKOed by +2 Stone Edge.

    Oh and if you run Salac Berry (Pocket I'm looking at you) you can even sweep teams unexpectedly! Its high base Speed coupled with a resistance to ExtremeSpeed makes it nearly impossible to revenge kill after the Speed boost (assuming it hasn't Close Combated yet) and nothing except Groudon likes tanking its +2 STAB moves.

    Oh and its the only thing that can be a sure fire check to both Swords Dance and Dragon Dance Rayquaza if it runs a Choice Scarf. Its also hilarious seeing Scarf Terrakion used against Calm Mind Dark Arceus !_!, being able to revenge so many threats to Uber Stall makes it a really cool choice if you can find a way to put it on anywhere IMO.

    Also again credits to Pocket for the fantastic Sub SD Salac Berry Terrakion set (he almost swept me with it !_! well then Stone Edge missed).

    Choice Band is a fine lure if you think Roar Giratina-a is too common for 2HKOing Specially Defensive variants with Stone Edge after Stealth Rock also, but Stone Edge PP drops FAST. It also 2HKOes Groudon after a layer of Spikes if it thinks it can waltz in and absorb this blow.
  6. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    The Choice Scarf Terrakion is a fantastic revenge killer and late-game sweeper. It really shines on a sun team (no pun intended), where it's weakness to Water is diminished. But the real point of using Choice Scarf Terrakion, outside of revenge killing the Extreme Killer Arceus, is that if your opponent is foolish enough to switch that Choice Specs Kyogre on Terrakion, it will get sad that it loses most of its health to Close Combat. Choice Scarf Terrakion 2HKOes Choice Specs Kyogre! The only problem is that you must hit Kyogre on the switch, as it can OHKO you with even a weakened Water Spout. If you don't believe on me, here is the calculation:

    252Atk Terrakion (Neutral) Close Combat vs 252HP/0Def Kyogre (Neutral): 52% - 62% (213 - 252 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    252Atk Terrakion (Neutral) Close Combat vs 252HP/252Def Kyogre (+Def): 37% - 44% (151 - 178 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    Even with Terrakion using a neutral nature and Choice Scarf, and Kyogre with maximum investiment in HP, Terrakion 2HKOes him. The only chance that it has to survive is investing in physical defense, but even then, it's a 3HKO, and still has a chance to 2HKO with Stealth Rock and/or Spikes.

    For this feat and for being capable of revenge killing Extreme Killer Arceus, I recommend Terrakion to any Ubers sun team. It's always good to have an alternative to win the weather war; Terrakion does just that! Just don't rely on him to win the weather war for you. Apart from this, Terrakion is a good Double Dancer and Choice Bander. I am having more sucess with Choice Scarf, though.
  7. TheStarRapper

    TheStarRapper

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    My offensive experiences with Terrakion:

    Besides checking Ekiller, Stab Stone Edge theoretically slays Ho-Oh. However, while in OU Scarfrakion can switch into a +1 Volcarona without taking damage from its stabs, Ho-Oh is a different matter.

    If you somehow avoid the burn from Sacred Fire, and can stomach the 43.2 - 50.92% sun-boosted hit, Ho-Oh can just switch out (and is actually rewarded for doing so if SR is not up). Brave Bird also deals a massive chunk (68.82 - 81.48%). Therefore, it is much easier to revenge Ho-Oh than to come in and actively check it.

    His biggest problem: Landing Stone Edge Choosing between Stab Moves that will hurt one enemy but not the other (IE Lugia is out with a Gira-O in the wings).


    Solution: Toxic as the fourth move. Though unorthodox, this functions as a great way to preserve your momentum and wallbreak. Additionally, SD or CM Ghostceus (really any non rest or refresh late game Arceus that is not heavily damaged by his STABS or X-Scissor) can now be put on a timer.

    I am not just theorymonning (I have replays but cannot easily find them), it has worked very well for me in the past and is worth a shot to run Toxic on Terrakion.

    I would definitely like to hear other experiences with using boosting Terrakion, as otherwise his power can be underwhelming.
  8. polop

    polop
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    Actually what annoys me about switching Terrakion into Ho-oh is the fear it might Sub up. I think I'm not the only one who thinks Sub Roost Ho-oh is probably the most common (and probably most effective) set in the meta.

    Remember, Terrakion IS one of the few users of STAB physical Rock-type moves (Rock Arceus and Kabutops being the others), so that really gives it the edge in a sense. It also is the only one who gets Taunt and Fighting STAB (now, I'm not going to make a Stall breaker set just yet but it IS possible to use Taunt to beat the pulp out of Roar + WoW Gira-a while Substitute beats Dragon Tail + WoW Gira-a (which has been getting a lot less common 0_0)).

    In my experience, Double Dance Terrakion has got to be one of THE hardest things to set up that exists. You could try throwing Lum Berry out there to help it setup more (absorb the WoW to get an exta SD) but at that point you lose so much power needed from that Life Orb boost. For example, +2 Stone Edge doesn't even 2HKO Physically defensive Giratina-a after Stealth Rocks (well you have like a 12% chance but seriously...), Life Orb is such a crux its sad. Unlike Groudon, you can't Swords dance on the switch and beat Giratina-a up with Lum Berry (+2 EQ 2HKOes) so it has some competition going there, but Rock and Fighting STAB really helps it out against Skarmory and Giratina-O, Skarm is actually OHKOed by +2 Close Combat while 0 HP variants of Giratina-O is OHKOed by +2 Life Orb Stone Edge.

    Actually Stone Edge is annoying, but the PP lost from a miss annoys me much more IMO. Substitute patches those scenarios up A LOT since the amount you have to predict decreases so much, thats why I like Substitute + SD so much. Also Rock Slide is perfectly viable on the last slot of Choice Scarf Terrkaion O_O, you do give up the ability to revenge kill Bulk Up Dialga with Sacred Sword though but I haven't seen those in ages... Toxic is still a cool way of dealing with stuff since I've missed two Stone Edges in a row far too many times DX.

    Also what do you guys think of Terrakion with Roar? It may sound awkward at first but it could do something a little bit like Poppy's Sub Roar Blaziken! Unlike Blaziken though, it can abuse the Rock-typing to take the annoying ExtremeSpeed from Rayquaza and Arceus and dish damage back out. You could even try Taunt over Substitute to do stuff like beat Gira-a and prevent it from Resting. Its only real disadvantage is its inability to beat Spinners, but you kind of have to run a spin blocker even if you ARE running Blaziken so... opinions?
  9. Sweep

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    My favorite non-Ubers are as follows...

    Bisharp @ Blackglasses
    Ability: Inner Focus
    4 HP, 252 Attack, 252 Speed
    Nature: Adamant

    -Sucker Punch
    -Night Slash
    -Swords Dance
    -Low Kick

    Sucker Punch is a great priority move that obliterates scarfers at +2. Night slash hits Giratina and Lugia that try to play around Night Slash very hard. Low Kick hits bulky EKiller, Arceus-Dark and Arceus-Steel quite hard. Inner Focus is the preferred ability to turn Shaymin-S choice-locked into Air Slash into set-up bait. Though it requires prediction, Bisharp is extremely threatening.

    Omastar @ Life Orb/Focus Sash
    Trait: Swift Swim
    4 HP, 252 Special Attack, 252 Speed
    Nature: Modest

    -Shell Smash
    -Hydro Pump
    -Ice Beam
    -Surf/Earth Power/HP Rock/HP Dragon

    With many teams running double scarfers for some reason, Omastar is having an easier time getting off smashes nowadays. If Omastar smashes, and you have hazard support thanks to Deoxys-S and a spinblocker, you basically win. Even without a Smash, this this is extremely threatening, OHKOing stuff like Mewtwo and Darkrai. A Focus Sash set is viable with Magic Bounce support, but it becomes less capable of revenging stuff. HP Rock is its best 4th move, as it hard counters the dangerous Ho-Oh in any weather so long it does not carry Earthquake. Surf is viable if you have hazard support if you fear Hydro Pump's mediocre accuracy. Dangerous pokemon, especially when used alongside Genesect which it compliments nicely.

    Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    252 HP, 40 Attack, 208 Special Defense, 8 Speed
    Nature: Careful

    -Thunder Wave
    -Spikes
    -Power Whip
    -Leech Seed

    Simple set. TWave prevents switch-in Rayquaza and Ho-Oh from doing much for the rest of the match, Power Whip hits hard with a little investment, Leech Seed annoys and replenishes its health, and Spikes provides entry hazard support. Ferrothorn also does a great job handling most scarfers, like CS Zekrom. It's a pokemon that's easy to hate unless you are using it.

    Kabutops @ Choice Band
    Trait: Swift Swim
    4 HP, 252 Attack, 252 Speed
    Nature: Adamant

    -Waterfall
    -Stone Edge
    -Low Kick
    -Aqua Jet

    Aqua Jet allows it to beat Scarf Terrakion in Rain, making up for Kabutop's Adamant nature. It also allows Kabutops to do a ton to Excadrill, even in Sand. Low Kick hits EKiller and Ferrothorn extremely hard, and Stone Edge is great for stuff like Lugia and Shaymin-S. The CHoice Band strips Kabutops of its coverage and ability to use Rapid Spin effectively in exchange for greater power and a loss of Life Orb recoil. This is one of the best late game cleaners out there.


    By the way, I would say Genesect if it weren't moved up to Ubers a few months ago. Genesect is sickeningly good due to Download and its fantastic movepool.
  10. Salamence97

    Salamence97

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    I'm assuming that this thread isn't only about Terrakion.
    Other than that, Iv found another really nice Poke that I felt like mentioning - Terrakion's fellow fighting type Heracross.
    While Terrakion might be best utilized with a Choice Scarf, Heracross's Choice Band set is equally good. The exact set is -

    Heracross @CB
    Adamant
    Max Atk/Spe
    Guts
    Close Combat
    Megahorn
    Stone Edge
    Sleep Talk
    After a Guts boost, this becomes retardedly powerful. To put its power into perspective, a Guts boosted CC does 66-78% to 252 HP/252 Def Impish Groudon. The combination of moves seems to be the best I could figure out - Night Slash is also nice, but it leaves Darkrai with a chance to survive, and leaves you at the mercy of Ho-Oh.

    I find this set works best as a partner for Ghost Arceus, the reason being that Heracross can switch into practically any and every Darkrai, which happens to be the most common check to Ghostceus. Also,CM Ghostceus can easily deal with bulky ghosts that trouble Heracross, as well as some random physical walls that can survive this bug's onslaught.

    Jolly might seem useful, as it allows you to outpace neutral natured base 90s, however, the KOs/2HKOs that Adamant gives will surely be missed (I rarely leave Heracross in for more than 2 turns anyways). For example,
    > Adamant guarantees the KO on Darkrai even with Stone Edge, meaning that if it decides to stay in, it will surely go down.
    > Also, Adamant allows you to always 2HKO 252 HP Ghostceus without entry hazards(50.5% min.), and always 2HKO Specially Defensive Giratina with SR (44.9% min.)
    > Other than that, Adamant Stone Edge will always OHKO standard Lugia (252 HP/176 Def Bold) after SR (79.1% min)
    > If running Night Slash, with Adamant you always 2HKO physically defensive Giratina after SR (46% min).
    I've haven't done any calcs for Giratina-O, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't fare better against Heracross than any of those mentioned above.
  11. trixter109

    trixter109

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    Ferrothorn

    We all know about the infamous iron thorn. Possibly the best check to Kyogre and just about all dragons. The Spiker that can come in on one of its many resisted move and set up. The SubSeeder that can wear down the bulkiest of pokemon.In fact Ferrothorn is so prominent in the Ubers meta that most dragons carry a Fire-type move just to get rid of it. Yes, Ferrothorn is all these and more. But what makes it so good? What is its "claim to fame"? Is it its great defenses? Is it the SudSeed strategy that it employs to annoy so many? Lets look further into it.

    While it's true that Ferrothorn's 74 / 131 / 116 base defenses are nothing to laugh at, it's the fact that it has access to Spikes, an entry hazard that has the power to change the game in Ubers, along with its excellent Grass/Steel typing. It is only weak to Fire and Fighting and come with resists to Normal, Water, Electric, Grass, Rock, Ghost, Dragon, Dark, and Steel. It also comes with a immunity to Poison. The best of its resistances is by far Dragon. Ferrothorn can take repeated Draco Meteors from the likes of Choice Scarf Dialga and Outrages from Choice Band Rayquaza. And we all know an Outrage from Choice Band Rayquaza is nothing to laugh at. Ferrothorn can can also take one of Choice Scarf Ho-Oh's Sacred Fires in the rain and live to tell the story. Also in the rain, Ferrothorn eludes a OHKO from Life Orb boosted Psycho Killer Mewtwo's Fire Blast and can sometimes elude a 2HKO from the Bulky Attacker variant of Mewtwo. Also a Life Orb Deoxys-A will have to be extremely lucky to OHKO Support Ferrothorn with Superpower. Ferrothorn can also very good at pulling off a Protect + Leech Seed strategy. It can set up Leech Seed on whatever has the misfortune to oppose it and then alternate between an attack or hazard and Protect to get recovery. Support Ferrothorn also has its faults. For instance, common Fire moves, such as V-Create on Rayquaza, can easily KO it even in rain. Also, Ferro is slow. Like really slow. Just about any Uber mon will outspeed it. Ferro is also set-up bait. Pokemon like Psycho Killer Mewtwo can come in and easily set-up one or two CMs before you can deal with it. Ferro also lack reliable recovery, and with the amount of hits it takes can be a problem late game when you need it to take an Outrage or two. Nonetheless, Support Ferrothorn is still the best Spiker in the Ubers meta, and one the best mixed walls out there.

    Ok so we've talked about Support Ferrothorn. Now let's talk about the lesser used Ferrothorn set, the Choice Band set. This set runs Choice Band with max attack and HP. As for moves, it usually runs Power Whip, Gyro Ball, Bulldoze, and Explosion. While at first it may seem absurd to play offensively with such a defensive Pokemon, once you look at Ferro's stats again you stop ogling over the defenses and see the base 94 attack stat, which may seem low for Ubers standards. Once you slap a Choice Band on it and max the EVs and give it a +Attack nature it hits pretty respectable Attack. Choice Band Ferro can switch into an Outrage from Rayquaza and KO back with Gyro Ball. Gyro Ball has the possibility to OHKO 4/0 Mewtwo and is garunteed OHKOs against Darkrai and Shaymin-S with Gyro Ball. Gyro Ball also is garunteed 2HKO vs. 252/64 Lugia, 4/0 Reshiram after SR, 4/0 Arceus, and 0/0 Giratina-O. Power Whip is no different as it OHKOs all versions of Kyogre and 2HKOs Groudon. Power Whip also 2HKOs 4/252 Chansey and OHKOs 0/0 Tyranitar. Power Whip also has a chance to OHKO Palkia after SR. Bulldoze hits anything that Power Whip and Gyro Ball don't and can even 2HKO Jirachi. Explosion blows it up when it's health is low and obliterates the enemy. Spikes can be used in place of Explosion because Ferrothorn is the best Spiker in the meta, but being locked into Spikes might not work out to well.

    Well that pretty much concludes my post on Ferrothorn. I really hope this helped you out in some way.All calculations will be under a spoiler tag below and thanks, as always, for reading.

    Support Ferro Set
    Show Hide
    Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    Sassy Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    EVs: 252 HP / 48 Atk / 208 SpD
    - Spikes
    - Power Whip / Gyro Ball
    - Gyro Ball / Leech Seed
    - Stealth Rock / Protect / Thunder Wave


    Choice Band Ferro Set
    Show Hide
    Ferrothorn @ Choice Band
    Trait: Iron Barbs
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
    - Power Whip
    - Gyro Ball
    - Bulldoze
    - Explosion / Spikes


    Support Ferro's Calcs
    Show Hide
    252+ Atk Choice Band Rayquaza Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 142-168 (40.34 - 47.72%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Reshiram Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn: 140-165 (39.77 - 46.87%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252+ SpA Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn: 93-111 (26.42 - 31.53%) -- possible 4HKO

    252 Atk Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn in rain: 256-304 (72.72 - 86.36%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 260-307 (73.86 - 87.21%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    52 SpA Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 176-208 (50 - 59.09%) -- 67.19% chance to 2HKO

    4 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-A Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 299-354 (84.94 - 100.56%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO


    Choice Band Ferro's Calcs
    Show Hide
    252+ Atk Choice Band Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rayquaza: 351-414 (100 - 117.94%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252+ Atk Choice Band Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo: 352-415 (99.43 - 117.23%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO

    252+ Atk Choice Band Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 352-415 (124.82 - 147.16%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252+ Atk Choice Band Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 408-481 (120.35 - 141.88%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252+ Atk Choice Band Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Lugia: 244-288 (58.65 - 69.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252+ Atk Choice Band Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Reshiram: 161-190 (47.07 - 55.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ Atk Choice Band Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 276-325 (68.48 - 80.64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252+ Atk Choice Band Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (136 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Giratina-O: 292-345 (66.21 - 78.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252+ Atk Choice Band Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre: 398-470 (98.51 - 116.33%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ Atk Choice Band Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 294-348 (72.77 - 86.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252+ Atk Choice Band Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 373-439 (58.09 - 68.38%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252+ Atk Choice Band Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 474-560 (117.32 - 138.61%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252+ Atk Choice Band Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Palkia: 258-304 (80.12 - 94.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


    Thanks for reading,
    trixter109
  12. lousy918

    lousy918

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    mention that gyro ball and power whip has high bp and ferrothorn has 74 base HP, not 34
    also tbh I don't think it can utilize subseed effectively, so far leech seed + protect seems to work better due to its crap speed and prediction goes both ways
    also why does it have 4 sp EVs, whats sp
  13. trixter109

    trixter109

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    Hey, thanks for pointing that out. I don't know why I said SubSeed. I guess I was thinking of a different mon. Anyway, what I meant was that it use Protect and Leech Seed and utilize it as a form of recovery. Also the sp on the Choice Band set was supposed to be SpD. Thanks for pointing out those mistakes.

    Thanks for reading,
    trixter109
  14. justinjiaxinghu

    justinjiaxinghu

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    Terrakion? I use it as a Darkrai/Arceus-Normal counter, and it can even come into Darkrai's Dark Void!
    Terrakion@Choice Scarf
    EVS: 252 Atk; 252 Spe; 4 SpD
    Trait: Justified
    Nature: Jolly
    -Close Combat
    -Stone Edge
    -X-Scissor
    -Sleep Talk

    Close Combat can OHKO Arceus Normal after SR, Stone Edge for Ho-oh, X-Scissor for coverage, and Sleep Talk so I can crush Darkrai even in sleep.
  15. lousy918

    lousy918

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    Close Combat minimum roll on 240 HP Arceus is actually 76%.
    also imo the 4 EVs should go in HP so iron head and u-turn aren't boosted
    yeah my bad, however its only gonna be taking extra damage from 3 layers of spikes, so O=
  16. jackm

    jackm

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    Dec 12, 2011
    Messages:
    349
    the 4 EVs should go into Def... U-Turn and Iron Head aren't boosted, and you get a potential extra turn against residual damage.
  17. Donkey

    Donkey

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2011
    Messages:
    529
    Here is my opinion on Terrakion. Terrakion is a very strong pokemon but people tend to use him wrong. He is a cleaner; arguably the best or one of the best cleaners in the game. With a STAB hard hitting CC he can pretty much beat almost all other scarfers after they have taken some chip damage.

    However, Terrakion is used by some people as a crutch. What I mean by this, is their logic is as follows: "I am weak to SD Arceus and Rayquaza. I will add a Terrakion to fix this." This generally weakens a team in my opinion and forces Terrakion into a role that is not his best role. And that is that.
  18. justinjiaxinghu

    justinjiaxinghu

    Joined:
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    Really? Then what set would you use? I've actually only seen CS Sets on the PS ladder..>.>
  19. RotomPoison

    RotomPoison

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    1,317
    I would just like to throw this out there: Cofagrigus is a perfect Arceus counter, what it isn't immune to makes them lose their typing through Mummy, or if it's EK, it's immune to ESpeed and Shadow Claw at +2 does not OHKO and Cofagrigus can burn it. Giratina can do the same, however, Cofagrigus can use it as setup for Trick Room (which is rare in ubers, but throwing it out there)
  20. Donkey

    Donkey

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    Oct 30, 2011
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    ...I would use choice scarf, but I would not use it as a crutch
  21. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    relying on terrak to switch into those pokemon is a guessing game because they can easily choose to kill it on the switch, and if you don't then you risk them boosting and losing another pokemon.

    pretty much what donkey means
  22. Go10

    Go10 Storm Vanguard !

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    Messages:
    830
    That's why Terrakion isnt a counter but a check to these guys. Also, Terrakion is a fantastic lead :

    Terrakion @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock / Toxic
    - Taunt / Toxic
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge

    The only downside is that you need toxic to cripple Groudon defensive (the offensive variant is 2hkoed), but you can just taunt>toxic>close, hes going to be at 60% and can no longer wall your team. Also, deo can setup two layer of hazards. Other than that, mot of his matchup are good, and his dual stab allow him to punch easily some hole in your opp's team.
    Toxic is only for defensive Groudon and Arceus, Taunt for SRer lead, forre, Gira (the origin is 3hkoed so he need to take care of SE on the switch) and skarm.
  23. justinjiaxinghu

    justinjiaxinghu

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
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    Sub SD sets seem to be okay lol so many people expect CS and you can Sub on the switch in. At +2 it's dual stabs run through everything bar that stupid groudon ;_;

    Terrakion@Salac Berry
    EVS: 252 Atk, 252 Spe, 4 Def
    Nature: Jolly
    Trait: Justified
    -Close Combat
    -Stone Edge
    -Subsitute
    -Swords Dance

    All of u prob already know this but Kabutops is amazing o.o

    Kabutops@Life Orb
    EVS: 252 Atk; 252 Spe; 4 SpD
    Nature:Adamant
    Trait: Swift Swim
    -Waterfall
    -Rapid Spin
    -Stone Edge
    -Aqua Jet/Low Kick
  24. Sheen

    Sheen

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    23
    Tyranitar
    Many of you have talked about how other pokemon can be effective on the tier. I would like to talk about our old favorite: Tyranitar. This Pokemon is what you could call and antimetagame mon, and it also could be an important member, so that you can keep your sand during the match, to give that 1.5x SpD boost to your Rock Arceus, or even your Terrakion, and double the speed of Excadrill. Personally, I will talk about a Tyranitar set I love using due to its versatility.
    Tyranitar (M) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EVs: 200 Atk / 56 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Lonely Nature (+Atk, -Def)
    - Crunch
    - Stealth Rock
    - Low Kick
    - Fire Blast

    I mostly use this Tyranitar as a suicide lead, but.. who would expect that? If paired with Excadrill, people would think that I want to keep it alive as long as possible, but nah, that's not the idea. The concept in fact, is quite easy to understand. It pretty much fills the niche Aerodactyl used to have last gen, set up rocks and die, or keep attacking if you have the chance. Crunch is used as its mandatory STAB, and hurts most things. Low Kick is used for the big butts in Ubers, (Which are many btw) such as Dialga, ExtremeKiller Arceus, Steel Arceus, Rock Arceus, Opposing Tyranitar, Blissey, Chansey, Terrakion, and it doesn't have the nasty recoil of Superpower. Fire Blast is used to deal with the ever-present Ferrothorn, and the ocassional Skarmory and Forretress. Stealth Rock is the move I always find myself using when I don't see a spinner, and even if I see one, I would most likely use it, so I can grab a boost with any Poke on the rest of my team, as the opponent attemps to spin them away. Focus Sash is used so that you can ensure you'll set the rocks, and no EQ, SuperPower, or Water Spout will ruin that, and you will live with 1HP, so you can scout what your opponent is going to do, and respond accordingly, so later on you can use Ttar as death fodder to bring up a Poke safely. You can even take down Focus Sash Deoxys-A or Deoxys-S trying to set up Stealth Rock and Spikes together, but they won't be able to set up both, thanks to Sand Stream
    However, this is not the only set Tyranitar can run. It can go from Physically-based scarfed, to Specially defensive, Dragon Dance (which is not quite useful as it used to be), or Choice Banded. All in all, you never know what to expect from a Tyranitar, and if used correctly it can give you momentum over your opponent.
  25. KidChameleon

    KidChameleon

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    169
    what a genius idea, nice and original moveset, you must be a really strong player, i like the speed spread against kyogre, you know it's spec or scarf whether it outspeeds you or not


    i don't know why, i feel you could play this set with a kyogre, a palkia, an excadrill, and even a kabutops, you should try it, just a clue
    the last pokemon, nothing comes in my mind, just put a random EKceus

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