Metagame np: DOU Stage 3 - Smooth Criminal | Marshadow Remains DOU!

#26
After playing around 200 games on the suspect ladder(lmfao rip me), both with and without marshadow, I'll post something that's probably fairly unpopular, likely incorrect and irrelevant, but important to my playstyle.

Benefits:
- Spectral Thief - This is a no-brainer, it makes marshadow what it is. It gives marshadow the capability of stealing all positive stat changes(no negative ones) and take them, and then attack the opponent.
- 125 Base Speed - This translates into 383 speed, which is an insane speed tier. Can outspeed and OHKO un-scarfed Tapu Lele, and other threats.
- Beautiful Coverage - Fighting/Ghost STAB is incredible, allowing unresisted coverage for any type.

These 3, added together, make an incredibly broken pokemon that crushes everything in it's path.

BUT

Let's consider the amount of things we can do about this.

- Trick Room: Once trick room is up, marshadow gets flattened by anything that doesn't hit like a pack of slightly wet instant noodles. It's useless, apart from whatever it can tickle with it's "technician boosted" shadow sneak.
- Intimidate: Yes, many physical attackers are crippled by intimidate, and they've always been able to play around it. However, keeping marshadow switching out means that eventually, you'll be hitting it on the switch in. If it doesn't, then it hits like a pack of slightly wet instant noodles.
- Tapu Fini: After playing against many fini, i've realized that spectral thief really doesn't counter Fini at all. Sure, it can steal a calm mind boost, but let's look at this- 252 Atk Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 127-151 (36.9 - 43.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO. Meanwhile, marshadow's getting cucked by unboosted moonblasts.
- Tailwind: suddenly, 383 speed doesn't matter because your opponent outspeeds you anyways, and Salamence-Mega won't be touched after an intimidate or a tailwind.
- Diancie-Mega: This new pokemon took our metagame and changed it greatly, and it's yet another pokemon that beats Marshadow. Spectral thief does less than a pack of slightly wet instant noodles, and dies instantly to a moonblast. The argument to be made here is that it can take diancie's defense boosts away, but it's the kinda pokemon that gets them back anyways.
- pokemon with a higher speed tier: Looking at Tapu Koko, Deoxys-Attack, Gengar-Mega, and Shaymin Sky. All of these pokemon are used fairly frequently, and with marshadow coming in, they still continue to run circles around it. (Hint: increase usage)

BUT

I understand that i've lowballed marshadow's abilities by a bunch with this point, but as a marshadow user myself, these are all the things that I greatly struggled against. You can definitely pair it with teammates who counter these counters, which is why I believe that marshadow is not broken enough to be banned. Change the meta? yes. However, it's in no way unhealthy, since many common playstyles/pokemon already put it in check.

Final word: Apologies if this seems biased, it is, because i struggled a lot getting reqs to vote here. For the last hundred games or so, i lost to a lot of shit even though I had a marshadow on my team. (this is still biased)
 
#27
- Diancie-Mega: This new pokemon took our metagame and changed it greatly, and it's yet another pokemon that beats Marshadow. Spectral thief does less than a pack of slightly wet instant noodles, and dies instantly to a moonblast. The argument to be made here is that it can take diancie's defense boosts away, but it's the kinda pokemon that gets them back anyways.
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie-Mega: 230-270 (95.4 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

that is a fuck ton of wet noodles, my friend

EDIT: it has occurred to me that you said Spectral Thief, but that still does 71% minimum, which isn't a lot of chip damage; regardless, you shouldn't just throw Diancie in front of Marshadow unless you have Intimidate support
 
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kamikaze

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#28
Marshadow Voting

The following users will vote on Marshadow in Doubles OU

If your name is on the list but you dont have posting privileges in this forum by tomorrow, just shoot a PM to Memoric or I and we'll have you added.

NOTE TO NEW VOTERS: your vote will not show up until the end of the suspect test, even to yourself, so don't resubmit it.
 
#30
Let's talk about about the recent metagame shifts.


  • This thing is pretty great, and in many regards it's even better than in ORAS. Diamond Storm now gives a +2 Defense boost, as opposed to last generation's +1. This is nice since it allows Diancie to eat up Landorus's Earthquakes more reliably, and also shrug off other physical attackers so long as RNG is in your favor. While I've heard some people express concerns about Diamond Storm saying it's too powerful, the metagame is so specially oriented anyways that I don't think it's a problem.
  • Fire-types (namely Mega Charizard Y and Heatran) suck even worse now with Diancie's introduction. This should allow Fire weak Pokemon such as Ferrothorn and Celesteela to prosper.
  • Zapdos doesn't appreciate the addition of a strong Rock-type attacker, and Tapu Fini lost one its greatest assets in Swagger. Perhaps we'll see these sorts of balanced Tapu Fini teams drop off in favor of more offensive ones.
  • Salamence and Gengar now have some competition as the best Mega Pokemon, which I'm happy to see. I felt as though there was a weird dynamic going on while teambuilding, since options for good Mega Pokemon were pretty limited.

  • CM Tapu Fini is still as good as always, but with the Swagger ban it lost its best set. Time will tell if it keeps its place as a top tier mon.
  • Zygarde and Snorlax (especially Zygarde) are a lot worse without Swagger. They're susceptible to Intimidate shuffling now, and they often can't get boosted fast enough before being knocked out.
  • Imo Marshadow wasn't affected very much by the Swagger ban cause teams reliant on Spectral Thief + + Swagger were kinda gimmicky to begin with.

These are just my thoughts, if you disagree go ahead and share yours too!
 
#31
From the games I've played with Diancie I don't think it's that great at all. While it does beat zapdos and the occasional tran (which was rubbish anyway) it struggles against rain which is more popular/good than it was in ORAS while not doing too well vs faster more offensive teams, which we are seeing more of since marshadow was introduced. the speed creep hurt it a lot, as now base 110 speed is only 'good' not great. Its early days, but i dont see it being anymore than a tier 2 mon, and definitely not one that competes with the top megas in the format. Im sure it will still be a decent pick to deal with mence/zapdos tho.

While im here i urge you to try mega venusaur. Its surprisingly good when ive used it due to there being few fires and it walls the finizap core. with intimidate support this thing is kinda strong. ofc its walled by steels (you can still leech seed it down, few steels are really doing anything back) but lando-t makes a good partner. s/o lorda for showing me this.

i dont think fini is gonna lose its place in the meta because the terrain control it gives is too important, like its a tapu that doesnt mind switching into stuff. i think cm is still ok but heal pulse protect still helps setup sweepers.
 
#32
Yeah the general speed creep from 350 being the fastest common non scarf stuff to the 372-394 range being really populated is pretty bad for diancie since relied so much on being able to outspeed and use offensive pressure to not take hits. This generation its frailness is just much more problematic since so many things like mega gengar, tapu koko and marshadow can outspeed and hit for massive damage. Whereas last gen it had a lot of really good matchups in common mons that it narrowly outspeeds in the deer, talonflame, hydreigon, thundurus, and kangaskhan. I think this has really limited the turns can stay out on the field and the fact that I always feel like im trying to hit and run with it lost mega diancie the ability to dominate a match.

Like everyone was saying diamond storm would be so killer but I think the cons by far outweigh the pros and diancie is much less viable than last generation.
 
#33
For the love of God, can we please talk about this thing?!

I mean, I know the Tapus are everywhere in this format, but think about it. A Dragon Z-move that hits BOTH opponents AND gives you an Ancient Power boost. In fact, this'll probably make them even more prevalent than they already are.

Or maybe I'm just over-hyping it, who knows. But my point is, this seems like a very interesting topic of discussion. Salamence and Zygarde may have some competition as the best Dragons in Doubles.
 

DaAwesomeDude1

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#35
I think you're overhyping it just a bit. Even tho it's a really good move, Kommo-O is still a pretty bad Pokémon. It's held back by a lack of a solid fighting stab and it's mediocre speed. Dragon types also aren't viable this gen at all and Kommo-o getting a good dragon type move won't change that. The only viable dragon types (zygarde, mega mence, kyurem-b) aren't like your traditional dragon types. Outside of sharing the same typing, they don't really do dragon-type things if that makes sense. They have other tools that help them succeed in this meta but most importantly they don't rely on their dragon type stabs unlike more traditional dragon types like hydreigon and latios both of which saw a huge decrease in play in SM.
 
#37
I think you're overhyping it just a bit. Even tho it's a really good move, Kommo-O is still a pretty bad Pokémon. It's held back by a lack of a solid fighting stab and it's mediocre speed. Dragon types also aren't viable this gen at all and Kommo-o getting a good dragon type move won't change that. The only viable dragon types (zygarde, mega mence, kyurem-b) aren't like your traditional dragon types. Outside of sharing the same typing, they don't really do dragon-type things if that makes sense. They have other tools that help them succeed in this meta but most importantly they don't rely on their dragon type stabs unlike more traditional dragon types like hydreigon and latios both of which saw a huge decrease in play in SM.
Yeah, I can see what you're trying to get at. I myself feel like people are overhyping this (The most liked comment on the trailer said Kommo-o is going to Ubers), but don't discount it entirely due to lack of Fighting STAB. Remember, move tutors are likely going to be a thing, and with that comes new possibilities for Fighting tutor moves. Drain Punch and Superpower are both fine additions (if it gets them), and who knows, we might even see Close Combat as a tutor move. I doubt it'll be tearing apart every playstyle like people scream it will, but I also don't think it'll be complete dead weight.
 

DaAwesomeDude1

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#38
Yeah, I can see what you're trying to get at. I myself feel like people are overhyping this (The most liked comment on the trailer said Kommo-o is going to Ubers), but don't discount it entirely due to lack of Fighting STAB. Remember, move tutors are likely going to be a thing, and with that comes new possibilities for Fighting tutor moves. Drain Punch and Superpower are both fine additions (if it gets them), and who knows, we might even see Close Combat as a tutor move. I doubt it'll be tearing apart every playstyle like people scream it will, but I also don't think it'll be complete dead weight.
I think you're missing the main point. Lack of a solid fighting stab is a reason why I don't think kommo-o will be very good but the most important reason on why I think it won't be good is that it relies heavily on its dragon stab and the meta right now doesn't really favor dragon types that rely on their dragon stab (decrease in play of latios and hydreigon in favor of kyub and zygarde). Like Arcticblast said, it's still too early to talk about this, since we don't have confirmation of move tutors or anything, but as of right now, kommo-o doesn't look too good.
 
#39
Another point against Kommo-o and its Z-Move is the subject of the thread. Marshadow. Consider that the Z-Move increases the stats by a stage each and that Marshadow's specila move is one that steals the stats first. Between that and Fairies means that the Kommo-o player would need to account for when to use it. Too early and either it gets walled or Marshadow would steal the boosts.

With what we know right now. Kommo-o might be better off then it was before but would still be on the lower end of viability in OU or DOU without fighting-type moves or team support to back up those boosted stats.
 
#41
Even if it gets fighting type moves, it's safe to say that every tapu bar bulu will run circles around it. (for now). With haze, tailwind, and spectral thief in the game, I can see it being a good move yes, but more of a gimmick, similar to z-conversion porygon-z. Usage? sure, but broken, no
 
#42
Problem with kommo is that in the current meta I look at teams being used and I look at my very few up to date teams and I see 1, 2 or even 3 fairies. Dragons and fightings have to have extreme superb perks to warrant using them atm, for example marshadow's speed tier and spectrical thief. Kommo is slow af, dragon is the worst stab ever atm and it's fighting stab moves are lol, with z move its not strong enuf off the bat to make use of its coverage and I don't think it has the space in this meta to be able to set up without heavy support that could be used to support another behemoth. I can't see this mon being very viable
 

Bughouse

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#43
kommo-o to me seems like a largely inferior z-conversion porygon in the sense that it really needs 3 move coverage, not just 2, alongside with its boosting z move. So even though its boosting move is itself an attack, you don't free up an extra slot for something neat. You just need all attacks. Since the move presumably comes from Clanging Scales, it means that you'll want to be using special kommo-o or at least mixed. I could see a set of z-Clanging Scales, Focus Blast (lol), Poison Jab/Flash Cannon, and Protect. Not entirely clear to me why this is anything more usable than P-Z as a set up sweeper.

on the other hand, 75/125/105 bulk is nothing to sneeze at and it will not be easy to take down with good defensive typing and +1 to both defenses, outside of using a fairy. So I think it will pair nicely with Amoonguss and could be threatening in that situation. But as others have said... Amoonguss also pairs well with many other set up sweepers, that's nothing new.
 
#44
yeah, it doesnt really hit hard enough to sweep through teams on its own, without significant team support that is.

The only thing kommo-o is good for is Psych Up gimmicks tbh since its much bulkier than porygon z. I could see kommo-o + psych up mega metagross being a pretty fun gimmick for not-serious games.