np: Doubles OU Stage 4 - Infamous | Jirachi (Stays in DOU) | Swagger is Banned

[Paraplegic]

Since this is the hot topic as of now, figured I'd share my thoughts:

Honestly I think this whole thing with banning swagger is stupid. And before anyone goes there, I don't give a fuck about "preserving the integrity of the game". I just think its stupid that people are clamoring for a ban/nerf for something that has never been a problem. Imo, this whole thing has been blown way out of proportion. Sure, occasionally a game is won by bullshitting the opponent with swagger, but honestly who gives a fuck? We play mons for christ's sake. This entire game is based off of luck. If we ban/nerf this element of the game for its luck based side effects, who's to say where it could stop? I hate to be the one to say it, but "slippery slope" is a thing (also I obviously understand that were not going to bad everything with an element of luck, just trying to make a point). So in conclusion, I guess what I'm trying to say is that while swagger may be annoying, its not really broken or uncompetitive, and it does have legitimate competitive applications. It really doesn't need to be touched, because tbh, its just another luck based element in a sea of things that make us want to blow our brains out on a daily basis.

 

[emma]

Since this is the hot topic as of now, figured I'd share my thoughts:

We play mons for christ's sake. This entire game is based off of luck. If we ban/nerf this element of the game for its luck based side effects, who's to say where it could stop?

"luck based side effects"
confusion isn't a side effect, it's the entire reason you click swagger. a luck based side effect is the confusion chance on hurricane. you don't hurricane primary for the confusion, you use it for damage. the only reason you click swagger (besides the dumb selfswagger) is for the confusion.

Since this is the hot topic as of now, figured I'd share my thoughts:

Sure, occasionally a game is won by bullshitting the opponent with swagger, but honestly who gives a fuck? We play mons for christ's sake. This entire game is based off of luck.

lol we play to win. how would you feel if you lose a game of basketball or baseball because the official makes a shit call? the same goes for pokemon.

 

[ScizorMaSter123]

Swagger........
Combine that with prankster klefki, and sableye you have a real problem on your hands. IMO i think it was kinda good they banned it

 

[Pocket]

Derivatives, the point that you're missing is that we aren't banning things based on gimmicky shit that bad players use in Doubles. We're only thinking about high-level plays. Nobody is going to bring Swagger Keldeo to a seasonal, unless they suck that badly. That is why we haven't banned Attract, Quick Claw, Focus Band, and other uncompetitive elements that 'noobs' may try to exploit to steal a lucky victory once every 100 games. However, skillful players like SamVGC taking advantage of unrestricted Prankster Swagger to win games is something that needs to be addressed.

Elise - I personally think that broad mechanic issues like this are the few times where combo bans/clauses are warranted to reduce collateral damage. However, I also know where you and the rest of the anti-Swagger folks are coming from. I just cannot agree with your camp's sentiments, because I do NOT believe that Swagger is the root of all evil, but rather a manageable RNG element that becomes unmangeable when combined with the right wielder (Prankster users).

Option A & C may have some mechanical problems, except not really. The coding would NOT intrude in most matches, because the player would simply opt for a different attack rather than pressing Swagger to confuse a second opponent on the field (or only Swagger their partner if we go with Option C), so you would never see "Thundurus used Swagger! The move failed!" message. These rules/clauses can easily be recreated irl through a gentleman's agreement, so these clauses aren't warping our game into something totally different, and such rules have existed since RBY.

 

[Bughouse]

For what it's worth, it's not that hard to envision a reason to bring Swagger Keldeo to a game. If you really don't need Icy Wind or Quick Guard or dual water stab for accuracy/power and all you really need is a better Amoonguss matchup, you totally would bring Swagger.

I'm still fine with doing the confusion clause a la sleep clause. But let's not pretend Swagger is totally without merit as a filler move on any old reasonably fast Pokemon. It can hax any match, regardless of Prankster or not.

 

[Elegyy]

I think confusion clause is our best option. It will allow us to keep selfswag and swagplay as competitive (i cant believe we're arguing for the integrity of those strats tho lol.) A confusion clause would be nice for, say, Kyle's Swagger Amoonguss, but there is still a huge obstacle with a confusion clause: if you have to keep in your confused mon if you want to keep the other mon healthy. That means that you still might be at that 50/50 risk, as you can't switch lest you reset the confusion clause. However, thats a really minor issue, and I don't even think its all that important, itd just make the clause potentially inefficient. Also I wanna shout out GiraGoomy

 

[Arcticblast]

I'm currently theorycrafting a Confusion clause; I don't like the idea of wholly removing the ability to confuse the opponent but Swagger is rude

Still wish everyone would just git gud once in a while

 

[kamikaze]

Welcome to the fourth suspect test of ORAS Doubles OU. For the next two weeks we'll be looking at Jirachi. A longtime veteran of the Doubles metagame, Jirachi is one of the rare suspects we have that primarily functions in a supportive role. Jirachi boasts the ability to redirect attacks with Follow Me, provide speed control in multiple forms (Icy Wind, Thunder Wave, Trick Room), and even have offensive presence due in part to its Serene Grace ability giving it a 60% chance to flinch with Iron Head. This is all combined together with its solid Base 100 stats around the board and its Steel/Psychic typing offering multiple resists. However only recently have people deemed Jirachi a problem due in part to its ability to enable easy setup for its partners thanks to all the support it offers. For these reasons, we have decided to suspect Jirachi to deem if it should remain in the tier.

This test will run for about two weeks. As usual, there will be battling requirements to qualify for voting (No posting requirements this time around). Battling reqs will consist of either laddering or suspect tournaments, and are still being determined at the moment. Even though there are no posting reqs, we advise everyone to actually read the arguments others present for and against its brokenness (or lack thereof) and still attempt to participate in discussion on this thread. A sheer volume of people saying one thing or another will change nobody's opinion so make sure you're actually doing something to make people think.

Remember to keep an open mind! Jirachi is a controversial Pokemon and many people's opinions are pretty set in stone already. All of these people, myself included, should remember that just because you believe in your side doesn't mean everyone else is wrong!

For clarity, yes Jirachi will be allowed on the Doubles OU suspect ladder

Like the Shaymin-Sky suspect, the B value for this test is 12. You'll need to achieve a coil of 2600 for the ladder.

Achieving Ladder reqs also requires a min GXE of 74.6 with a Game Limit of 60 games maximum

N=12.0/log2(40*GXE/2600)

(Google calculator is awesome for this kind of thing).

Here are some sample values:

GXE N
100 19
95  22
90  26
85  31
80  40
75  58
74  64 (try again)

Remember to be respectful to other players, and try not to shitpost.

tagging The Immortal to get up the Ladder

 

[Stratos]

it actually fucking happened wh0a

 

[Lolk]

Let me point out to all of the people who think suspect testing is a waste of time:

Even if you don't think a Pokemon is broken, holding a suspect test brings tons of pros and basically zero cons to the community.

1. It brings actual semi-intelligent discussion to the forums. Let's face it: Dubs has one of the most inactive forums when it comes to general meta discussion. Suspect testing forces all players to deeply analyze a very crucial factor in our metagame. People have been complaining about Jirachi for months, and almost zero discussion has occurred in the forums because people don't see any point to bring it up. I was genuinely surprised with the Swagger discussion in the meta thread, as I had not expected anything to happen without a suspect test forcing people to reach a consensus, so props to you guys for that discussion.

2. Once a test is completed, the community finally has a consensus about the problem. If we didn't suspect Mega Kangaskhan ever, people would still be complaining about it being broken to this day. You could argue that a Jirachi suspect is irrelevant if the community had already thoroughly discussed it in the forums, but we haven't, so you can't make that argument. I would love a Skymin and Mega Mence retest as well, because it took Mega Kang 3 tests before the community finally agreed with it's placement.

3. The ladder gets better during suspect tests. Saying that this doesn't matter, because everyone stops laddering after the tests, is a stupid af counterargument because every contribution to the community is important, no matter how small you perceive it. I personally believe an active ladder has massive boosts to the community that we can't even measure. Imagine all of the terrible ladder casuals that play Doubles and have never even joined the Dubs room. If they frequently encounter good players during the test, their teambuilding and playing skills will improve as well, creating almost a ripple effect spreading Doubles OU skills. They are also more likely to find their way to the doubles room and integrate into the community, which is massively important for our community.

4. It allows Dubs players to get the TC badge. I'm actually a bit annoyed with the doubles leadership for this point, and if I never left the council, I would have advocated for more frequent testing the past year. Even if you don't care about the pixels, several players could have received a badge and been granted inside scoop access by now. This is a big step for smogon users as it grants players an understanding of how everything works, and allows for users to take on more leadership positions within the community.

5. It gets other smogon members interested in Doubles. This one goes without saying, as every test we had has brought in people from every metagame. Usually a couple people like Doubles enough to stay and join the community after each test, but even if they are just here for the badge, getting outside perspectives of our metagame is very important when deciding whether or not something is broken.

Basically the only counter-argument I have seen for suspect testing is that it takes time and effort, which is a really stupid counter-argument (especially considering all of the good testing does for the community). I personally don't see Jirachi as broken or uncompetitive at the moment, but I am very excited for all of the discussion and benefits this test will have for the community. Even if it does get banned, just suck it up and understand that it's what the community wants. If there is even the tiniest hint at something being broken, suspect testing only brings positives to the community. We should have been doing it more frequently, so no one would even think about this being a waste of time. I really hope the council feels the same way as I do approaching S&M, because it could make all the difference how that meta (and our community) develops.

 

[Pocket]

4. It allows Dubs players to get the TC badge. I'm actually a bit annoyed with the doubles leadership for this point, and if I never left the council, I would have advocated for more frequent testing the past year. Even if you don't care about the pixels, several players could have received a badge and been granted inside scoop access by now. This is a big step for smogon users as it grants players an understanding of how everything works, and allows for users to take on more leadership positions within the community.

When Joim & I first drafted the tiering policy for Doubles, we included "maintenance" rounds every 3 month or so, where the suspect ladder goes up and people discuss whether there is anything suspect worthy that needs to be addressed during that suspect stage. Kind of like LC's tiering policy, where players get to nominate suspects as opposed to having a pre-determined suspect.

These suspect rounds have apparently been removed, which is understandable because it would be a tedious process. Inexperienced participants may have also fallen under the false "what to ban next" mentality, which is annoying to address.

As for Jirachi suspect itself, it is long overdue, but I personally wish it stays. I actually think it's healthy for the meta. I have played with Jirachi heavily since the beginning of XY, but I never felt cheap using it. I actually feel cheaper using BD Azumarill tbh, because it's unique typing allows it to set up BD effortlessly on a lot of Pokemon in the meta, and I've seen it nab multiple KOs in big games many times. You can read my stance about Jirachi (& Azumarill) here.

The only stance I would revise is about Azumarill. I don't think a lower skilled player can defeat a higher skilled player with Azumarill. However, given the two players are at equal level, I do believe that the one with an Azumarill is at a much greater advantage than the one without.

 

[Funbot28]

Finally this thing is getting suspected. Honestly I feel Jirachi to be a big strain to the meta compared to BW Doubles. Yes it has an added Ghost and Dark weakness, but there are so many more powerful offensive Pokemon who really can abuse redirection very well (BD Azumarill, Mega Kang, Mega Zard X and so much more). It's typing and stats is really what lets it redirect very well compared to other redirected such as Ammonguss and Clefairy/Clefable. It also has an amazing support move pool in Icy Wind, Thunder Wave, Iron Head flinching, etc that enables it to shut down most offensive moms who can threaten your setup sweeper. The strain it puts on team building and the amazing support it gives which is unparalleled currently leaves me to believe it should be banned.

 

[Pocket]

BD Azumarill + Jirachi is the only notable combo that can even be considered OP afaik. Kangaskhan is better paired with Togekiss, which can absorb Fighting-type moves better and discourage EQ spam from Landorus-T when both of them are out (also doesn't get lit by Charizard Y's Heat Wave). Mega Charizard X isn't even good in dOU, and Togekiss is arguably just as good as Jirachi, because it discourages EQ spam (whereas Jirachi discourage Rock Slide spam).

Volcarona + Jirachi and Fighting-type + Jirachi are strong combos, but far from perfect and hardly gamebreaking IMO. Fighting type + Jirachi still struggle with strong Fire- and Ground-type attacks as well as Aegislash. Volcarona + Jirachi also doesn't enjoy Sun-boosted Heat Waves or EQ spam, and both fare poorly against Heatran.

I've seen people hyping up Mega Diancie + Jirachi, but I haven't personally used the two together, so I don't have much to say here. I don't remember ever having trouble facing one, though.

Just to be clear, I am not saying Togekiss is better than Jirachi overall. I am stating that there are certain Pokemon that would benefit from Togekiss more so than Jirachi, esp in a team already vulnerable to EQs and Heat Waves.

 

[MaPa_Typhlosion]

Before I state my opinion on Jirachi, I'd just like to say that I've only recently gotten into Doubles and therefore my opinions may not be very good, so please don't bash me for them, thanks! :)

Anyway, onto the topic: I've not seen Jirachi much,even when I reached 1400 it wasn't present on the ladder so when I saw the suspect I was honestly confused. But after reading others' posts on this thread, I now see why it's such an issue. It has very good support options, plus great chances of flinching opponents.
I see why people would be frustrated by it, but I certainly don't think it's broken or deserves a ban. Jirachi has a lot of resists, yes, but also quite some weaknesses. Primarily to spread moves, such as EQ and Heat Wave. So, unless its partner has Wide Guard, the thing is gonna be down.

As I said, I may very well be wrong, but I just thought I'd share my thoughts. Thanks for reading!^^

 

[Itz ZecaroN]

This is a pretty neat suspect. Jirachi is a common place support pokemon when you think about team building for DOU. The versatility you can have from this one pokemon is amazing.
- Speed control in the forms of; Trick Room, Icy Wind, Thunder Wave
- Decent offenses when combined with Thunder Wave and Iron Head to lock down a pokemon or even a potential Scarf set that Clius enlightened me to as to help check certain common threats.
- It's typing and all around great stats make it very hard to get rid of in one hit, unless you predict the leads or switches.
- Steel Type with an access to Follow Me so great redirection allows it to just help glue teams together and help get your wincons into position.

All around such a great pokemon and I reallt enjoy using it, and I feel the suspect is well placed. There are plenty of pokemon to handle it but with all the different types of support it can give, you don't really know what you are up against. I am on the fence about whether to ban or not, but by the time I get reqs I am sure I will have a better idea.

 

[emma]

jirachi is a very common pokemon so when you ladder up a bit higher you will see it in action.

I think Jirachi is a bitch to play against being able to redirect anything but I do think it's not ban worthy. theres multiple ways to play against with powerful spread moves such as eq landorus (most common pokemon) and heat waves from volcanion or heatran. powerful, but not ban worthy

 

[xzern]

I don't particularly agree with a Jirachi ban, but I don't disagree either. Jirachi has either excellent or just plain darn good synergy with nearly every relevant threat / sweeper, particularly Azumarill, Mega Kangaskhan, Volcarona, and Mega Diancie. That being said, I think that the main problem with Jirachi is the fact that it easily creates nearly unpredictable situations due to how it can be OHKOed by some strong attacks and lives a lot more. For example, my Infernape vs a Jirachi & Kangaskhan could easily OHKO either of those, but its simply whether Jirachi presses Follow Me or Protect that decides to which side the momentum turns to. It could be argued that predicting the Follow Me vs Protect on Jirachi is just a matter of skill and experience, so I really don't have an opinion set in stone. It also seems difficult to really strongly advocate for this ban, as it's not Jirachi itself that is the perpetrator of this potential broken-ness, but its allies that are using its support. Anyone voting in this suspect definitely needs to consider the 2v2 dynamic that makes this suspect so controversial.

 

[BLOOD TOTEM]

hi it me

I don't intend to ladder for this suspect because Pokemon is a pretty bad game, but I am will drop some truth bombs in the thread. First I'll deal with Jirachi and then maybe i'll deal with Swagger another time if you guys still think it's an issue. (protip: it isn't)

The first thing I'm going to look at, is giving free turns to Fire-types. This is a really shitty trait, given that there are three of them in tier one of the viability rankings. Charizard is one of the most difficult Pokemon to switch into in the tier since a Y forme Overheat will often cleanly 2HKO common resists, furthermore if you mispredict and it turns out to be X you can often find yourself in a terrible position. The other big tier one threat that capitalizes on these Pokemon is Heatran, one of the best Substitute users in the tier alongside Aegislash, which coincidentally also has a cushy matchup vs Jirachi.

Taunt, a very standard move choice on most teams, is very effective against Jirachi. Sets not using Icy Wind are basically shut down by it assuming your answer to Jirachi isn't slower than it since all it can do is fire off a weak Iron Head. This is one of the reasons I don't think Pokemon like Scrafty or Volcanion are the most suitable checks since an Iron Head + Strong partner can really set you back if Jirachi gets the flinch. If it is running Icy Wind then Taunt is still effective, the fact that Icy Wind isn't permanent usually makes it less of a pain to deal with since you can just switch out to avoid the Iron Head flinches.

Other users in the thread have already mentioned this but I'm going to reiterate, Jirachi is weak to Heat Wave and Earthquake, the most common spread moves in the tier. This doesn't do Jirachi any favors as a redirector since it isn't able to effectively tank a hit from spread users whilst its partner protects and fire off a speed control option. Furthermore, spread move users tend to be some of the stronger and popular Pokemon in the tier such as Charizard Y, and Landorus-T. Furthermore, Pokemon like Volcarona, Volcanion, and Heatran call all punish a switch with a move like Quiver Dance, or Substitute.

Another factor that sets Jirachi back is the constraints on it's item slot. In an ideal world it would be able to run Sitrus Berry pretty much always in order to maximise it's staying power and get off some crucial redirects, Amoonguss means that more often than not it is forced to run Safety Goggles. Whilst Goggles aren't bad, it does highlight a big difference between Jirachi and Amoonguss. Amoonguss has Regenerator and thanks to being a Grass-type, can freely run Sitrus Berry. This mean it's notably easier to switch in and out of neutral hits and mispredictions are harder to punish since Sitrus Berry recovery and Regenerator quickly nets half HP with minimal effort.

As a final thought I think Jirachi encourages higher level of play. Follow Me / Protect mind games might be a clusterfuck on the ladder but in a tournament scenario we can expect people to be playing to maximize their odd and recognize all the possibilities they're facing. It's not to work out the safest way forward in some standoffs but having to work out the big brain plays means that the skillful player who can quickly see what needs to be done to win will usually beat a wose player, regardless of who has the Jirachi.

 

[Huston]

Honestly this kind of reminds me of how Aegislash was in OU. It is a never ending cycle of mind games until Rachi goes down, but at the same time spread moves take it to Hell and back. The bigger problem is when you get things like Rachi/Azumarill or even Kang/Rachi (Stax's team). That is when it gets a bit more threatening, but not broken by any means. Also, tbh I think Jirachi is shit on its own, and is only anywhere close to ban worthy when with Azu or a set up sweeper. It's annoying, but is not the easiest to use anyway in the Rachi/Azu teams. Volcanion checks it, nothing really destroys though and it can be a major issue on many teams under TR. Jirachi is just too slow in most cases to immediately use serene grace iron head, and is shut down by taunt unless it has icy wind, as it is slower so would likely go down before impacting the game to a great extent because of this. With that said, however, I would personally vote for the ban for those reasons, though there are credible arguments for and against a ban.

I don't particularly agree with a Jirachi ban, but I don't disagree either. Jirachi has either excellent or just plain darn good synergy with nearly every relevant threat / sweeper, particularly Azumarill, Mega Kangaskhan, Volcarona, and Mega Diancie. That being said, I think that the main problem with Jirachi is the fact that it easily creates nearly unpredictable situations due to how it can be OHKOed by some strong attacks and lives a lot more. For example, my Infernape vs a Jirachi & Kangaskhan could easily OHKO either of those, but its simply whether Jirachi presses Follow Me or Protect that decides to which side the momentum turns to. It could be argued that predicting the Follow Me vs Protect on Jirachi is just a matter of skill and experience, so I really don't have an opinion set in stone. It also seems difficult to really strongly advocate for this ban, as it's not Jirachi itself that is the perpetrator of this potential broken-ness, but its allies that are using its support. Anyone voting in this suspect definitely needs to consider the 2v2 dynamic that makes this suspect so controversial.

 

[ryo yamada2001]

Rei I think you bring up good points but common Earthquake users (Lando) and Heat Wave users (Heatran, Volcanion) are checked by Azumarill. Volcanion loses to +6 Knock Off without hurting Azumarill.

That's why I think Azu is the main offender here, considering you barely hear complaints about kang/diancie + jirachi. Azumarill just checks the stuff Jirachi normally loses to bar sun, but I guess that's a discussion for another day

 

[Huston]

Rei I think you bring up good points but common Earthquake users (Lando) and Heat Wave users (Heatran, Volcanion) are checked by Azumarill. Volcanion loses to +6 Knock Off without hurting Azumarill.

That's why I think Azu is the main offender here, considering you barely hear complaints about kang/diancie + jirachi. Azumarill just checks the stuff Jirachi normally loses to bar sun, but I guess that's a discussion for another day

Uh Azu checks sun even if Jirachi has goggles to redirect sleep powered from Venu. If Azu gets to +6, which is not the unlikely vs common sun teams , it is still a major force. Azu is a threat, on near the level of Jirachi; but that's off topic so I won't go into that now.

 

[Derivatives]

Rei I think you bring up good points but common Earthquake users (Lando) and Heat Wave users (Heatran, Volcanion) are checked by Azumarill. Volcanion loses to +6 Knock Off without hurting Azumarill.

That's why I think Azu is the main offender here, considering you barely hear complaints about kang/diancie + jirachi. Azumarill just checks the stuff Jirachi normally loses to bar sun, but I guess that's a discussion for another day

Definitely don't think that Jirachi+Kanga or Jirachi+Diancie should be ignored, they are comparable to Jirachi+Salamence in their ability to take apart teams late game when the few possible checks to them have been taken care of well enough (like in the case of mence you really needed like 30-40% done to them because mence could so easily deal the rest of the damage, but things like diancie and kang need 45-60% dealt to them).

 

[Pocket]

Derivatives, if the few checks to Kangaskhan and Diancie are taken care of they don't necessarily need Jirachi to help finish off the team. An Amoonguss, a Fake Out user, or a good offensive partner can easily help potent juggernauts like Kangaskhan and Diancie finish off the opposing team. What you just stated doesn't seem extraordinary or particularly unique to Jirachi.

Azumarill in the other hand can start ripping off the opposing team early or mid-early game, since it can set up Belly Drum on numerous common OU mons. Its synergy with Jirachi is excellent, because it can prolong Jirachi's play time by exploiting Jirachi's counters to set up BD or taking them out with +6 priority AJ. Kangaskhan & Diancie, in the other hand struggle with similar answers to Jirachi, which is why they cannot let loose earlier in the game the way Azumarill can.

 

[Bughouse]

One of the biggest things I'm concerned about with removing Jirachi actually is if it will push Diancie and Kangaskhan and Gardevoir over (or closer to) the edge. It's one of the best checks to 3 of the top 4 megas. I think it will reduce the variety of teams that are possible because now basically every team needs Scarf Lando-T, Aegislash, and/or Ferrothorn.

On the other hand, it will make MegaGross way better which I think is cool.

 

[Pocket]

I also think Jirachi is a healthy component of our metagame that keeps major centralizing forces like Diancie, Kangaskhan, and Talonflame in check. It's obviously not as quintessential as a Landorus-T, but it does provide a glue that can fend off these powerhouses. My main concern with the absence of Jirachi is that it will only make Diancie, Kangaskhan, Talonflame, Sylveon, and Amoonguss even more centralizing and restrictive than they already are, which I find undesirable. Why we want to remove one of few options that can handle these prominent threats is beyond my comprehension.

Not only does Jirachi offer us an answer to all these centralizing forces, but it doesn't even restrict teambuilding either. It has the exact same weakness as Aegislash, which any team should be prepared to face. If you actually watch replays of tour games, you usually see Jirachi go down in 2-3 hits. Unlike Amoonguss, which will frequently last through the entirety of the match with Regenerator & Spore, Jirachi's presence in a game is short-lived.

Let's not be like this guy (Dawg's alt) and ban Jirachi because it flinched your mon. Serene Grace flinch is not a good reason to ban on its own, unless you think Togekiss needs to be banned, too, lol. Instead, finalize your decisions based on repercussions of banning Jirachi. Our metagame is actually smaller than Singles OU, because of super viable threats like Kangaskhan. What is the point of making these threats even more powerful and centralizing?

Personally, I think we should focus more on these super viable threats like Kangaskhan (for the nth time) and Azumarill if we want to aim for a more diverse and less centralized metagame we have now, rather than targeting support mons like Jirachi, but I know I am in the minority here :(