np: Doubles OU Stage 4 - Infamous | Jirachi (Stays in DOU) | Swagger is Banned

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Arcticblast

Arcticblast

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jirachi.gif

Welcome to the fourth suspect test of ORAS Doubles OU. For the next two weeks we'll be looking at Jirachi. A longtime veteran of the Doubles metagame, Jirachi is one of the rare suspects we have that primarily functions in a supportive role. Jirachi boasts the ability to redirect attacks with Follow Me, provide speed control in multiple forms (Icy Wind, Thunder Wave, Trick Room), and put on pressure due in part to its Serene Grace ability giving it a 60% chance to flinch with Iron Head. This is all combined together with its solid Base 100 stats around the board and its Steel/Psychic typing offering multiple resists. However only recently have people deemed Jirachi a problem due in part to its ability to enable easy setup for its partners thanks to all the support it offers. For these reasons, we have decided to suspect Jirachi to deem if it should remain in the tier.

This test will run for about two weeks. As usual, there will be battling requirements to qualify for voting (No posting requirements this time around). Battling reqs will consist of either laddering or suspect tournaments, and are still being determined at the moment. Even though there are no posting reqs, we advise everyone to actually read the arguments others present for and against its brokenness (or lack thereof) and still attempt to participate in discussion on this thread. A sheer volume of people saying one thing or another will change nobody's opinion so make sure you're actually doing something to make people think.

Remember to keep an open mind! Jirachi is a controversial Pokemon and many people's opinions are pretty set in stone already. All of these people, myself included, should remember that just because you believe in your side doesn't mean everyone else is wrong!

For clarity, yes Jirachi will be allowed on the Doubles OU suspect ladder

Like the Shaymin-Sky suspect, the B value for this test is 12. You'll need to achieve a coil of 2600 for the ladder.

Achieving Ladder Reqs also requires a min GXE of 74.6 with a Game Limit of 60 games maximum

N=12.0/log2(40*GXE/2600)

(Google calculator is awesome for this kind of thing).

Here are some sample values:
Code: 
GXE N
100 19
95  22
90  26
85  31
80  40
75  58
74  64 (try again)

Remember to be respectful to other players, and try not to shitpost.
 
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Really looking forward to Volcanion and how it checks Azu + Rachi kind of well, but Big Steamy Volcanion under Trick Room has been really scary in the test matches and not a whole lot switches into Volc + Hoopa/Gard. Interested to see how the meta develops with this monster in it
 
Well Volcanion was briefly legal on PS right when ORAS stuff came around. It can be used sort of like SubTran, except useful against Rain, but worse against some notable things like Kangaskhan, Thundurus, Dragons, and Talonflame (sort of). In general, I found it to probably be "better" than Heatran, but in the way where both will still definitely get used on different builds.

It was far from broken, though that was in a meta with Mega Mence lol... But anyway, no a quickban is definitely not necessary. I'm not sure a test ever will be. IMO it will be a welcome sight to the meta since it can help deal with the Jirachi/Amoonguss + Azumarill "cheese."
 
When I saw the title I got super fucking hyped and then was disappointed.

I haven't fully thought out my opinions on Jirachi yet, though it definetly warrants a suspect (but not necessarily a ban).

Volcanion is gonna be an awesome addition to the metagame. It has great STAB coverage allowing it to check some super popular threats like Landot, Amoonguss and all Steel-types (yeet). That said, it's mediocre speed and weakness to Ground and Electric (two rather common attacking types) hold it back substantially. Although it's going to be a top tier threat, I don't think it will deserve a suspect.

In other news, TR Volcanion is pretty much outclassed by ErupTran, my advice to you is not to use it.
 
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Jirachi is retarded. Its insane typing/bulk combined with an unorthodox method of clearance offensively is what makes me say it's retarded overall. There are like 5 things total in this meta game if even that which can OHKO it, which is a trait not shared with any other redirector in Doubles OU. Its most common partners benefit off of Jirachi either letting it literally just win or letting it get seriously close to. Also, its most common partners tend to take out Jirachi's few offensive checks ridiculously easily and Jirachi itself can aid its partner with easy-to-spam Icy Winds and Iron Heads like no other redirector in history has (aside from bw Jirachi). How is this balanced?

I also think Volcanion will not hinder but rather encourage Jirachi spam, which sounds kind of wrong when Hoopa+Volc is literally undefeated but it totally makes sense if you really think about how many partners can smash Hoopa/Volc when assisted by Jirachi, and how their use would also be encouraged just to not lose while not using Volcanion. In a meta game with a fucking water+fire that can OHKO literally everything that's weak to one of its STABs (may sound like old information for a strong powerful attacker™ but Landorus-T, Heatran, Keldeo, and Mega Diancie don't even have this trait and half of those are prone to intimidate whereas Volcanion is not) and burns or severely chunks everything that attempts to switch in to it, Jirachi madness may be one of few archetypes with a chance in the new meta.
Also something that sounds like a ridiculously selfish argument but is completely relevant in any tier involving urself: literally all of my teams suck ass against Volcanion. I would imagine the same sort of stuff was true around the time of the release of ORAS which is totally acceptable, but when we're introducing literally 1 new pokemon and this one new pokemon so far has a 100% winrate, games where it faced itself aside, why should we conform the meta game to it?
Someone pls answer me these questions because I think Volcanion is a really cool looking mon but like there's no such thing as winning against this unless 1) you use it urself or 2) you load your team full of Volcanion resists that don't lose to Hoopa-U (there are like almost 0 that i can think of lol). And I also want to make it clear that I don't want Hoopa-U to be to blame for this because Hoopa-U's coverage is super ass, it just happens to help Volcanion specifically to an impossibly grand extent.
 
Wooooooo finally a Jirachi suspect. I remember when I first started to play and I got through the low ladder pretty easily and then I was instantly stopped by Jirachi. Being a VGC player before, I had no idea what it does, and even now that I do, it's still hard to beat. Awesome typing, blessed pixie stats, and a better Rage Powder, I think Jirachi needs a suspect but I'm not completely not on board with a ban...... yet.
Volc? Volcan? Volcanion on the other hand does not need a quick ban and probably not a suspect either. Outclassed in TR by Eruptran and weak to the popular genie's STABs (Electric + Ground).
 
I dont understand "I want suspect, not sure about ban"
if jirachi suspect is anything like skymin suspect you'll have a bunch of randoms on ladder with out using jirachi then deciding on whether to ban this mon they havnt been using and only fought in like <10% of their battles

my question is
what information do you expect to get out of suspect that you dont already know now to decide ban or no ban?

I have used jirachi enough and battled it enough to know that it is in no way bad for the meta.

if you are struggling against it then you probably struggle winning in general
 
Common mons that can beat both Hoopa-U and Volcanion:

Keldeo
Mega Diancie
Mega Kangaskhan
Hydreigon
Lando-T (especially LO)
Kyurem-B

But no, of course basically nothing wants to switch into that combo... one is strong as hell and the other burns you. I don't see why this is surprising or a troubling thought. Nothing really wants to switch into Mega Diancie and Volcarona together, or plenty of other combos, either...
 
Every time something turns out to do really well in the meta someone always wants a suspect. Evidence being when Cresselia, Diancie, and Kyurem-Black rose in popularity. Playing against Jirachi is definitely not something a solid team can't manage. Admittedly it is a very strong pick, but it's no better than Kangaskhan, or Landorus-Therian.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 164 SpD Jirachi: 390-460 (96.5 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 92+ Def Jirachi: 464-548 (114.8 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
88+ SpA Charizard Overheat vs. 252 HP / 164 SpD Jirachi in Sun: 458-542 (113.3 - 134.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 252 HP / 164 SpD Jirachi: 398-470 (98.5 - 116.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 164 SpD Jirachi: 439-517 (108.6 - 127.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Chandelure Overheat vs. 252 HP / 164 SpD Jirachi: 432-510 (106.9 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 164 SpD Jirachi: 452-533 (111.8 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Blaziken Overheat vs. 252 HP / 164 SpD Jirachi: 398-470 (98.5 - 116.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 92+ Def Jirachi: 446-528 (110.3 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

While some of the set/mon choices may be peculiar, it's exactly what's intended with a meta. When something seems to be strong you prepare for it according to how threatening it is to your team. When you find that you can use something you haven't seen used much, or not used much yourself, and you and others use that strategy the meta develops, and as a result we get a fresher/more fun game. I'm sure there's tons of calcs out there that I did not include that would shows ways to take out Jirachi without have too much of an issue.
I personally like have a solid follow-me user that isn't Magmar, as Togekiss fell way off a long time ago, and is most likely going to stay there regardless of whether or not Jirachi gets banned.
 
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n1n1 said:
quick ban

leave jirachi alone
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this sort of shit is absolutely unacceptable in a discussion thread and honestly its the kind of stuff that makes me super glad that im not a mod anymore so I don't have to deal with you appealing the infraction i would give you to the senior staff, but considering you do this shit all the damn time and seem to have no clue why its unacceptable I figure I'll give you a hint.

Maybe you're confused because you sometimes see people like myself posting potentially controversial opinions in shorthand and think that it's okay to emulate that posting style. There's two problems wrong with that assumption.

First, at risk of sounding a little conceited, I've earned the right to post like that. People respect your opinion more when you're a top player because your ability to understand the meta is backed up by your results. If you consistently pull in wins, you obviously know what you're talking about, so people tend to give you the benefit of the doubt. If I come across, say, Memoric, or any other good player posting in a thread that, "Zard Y is a TR mega" with no explanation I would think huh, that's interesting, I wonder what Memoric sees that leads him to this conclusion and possibly post something like "hey why do you think zard is best in TR? [x, y, z thoughts on zard in/out of tr to start a conversation on the topic]." When I see n1n1 posting a statement in a thread that I disagree with like "Zard Y is a TR mega" with no explanation I just think "oh look theres n1n1 being fucking delusional again what else is new" and go on with my day. Unless you have proven success I'm not going to automatically assume you know what you're talking about, so if you go against something considered "established wisdom" you better come out the gate with arguments to back it up and convince me of your position or I'm just going to assume you're wrong. Any time you make a potentially controversial point you should be providing arguments in support, the more the better as long as you don't get redundant, yes even if you're me. But my success has earned me the privilege of my opinions on the meta coming with the inherent authority that allows me to be selfish and short-cut the system sometimes. I don't know what kind of respect you think never making it past top 32 in a seasonal earns you. You seem to fancy yourself a top player. Well here's a hint: you're fucking not, so you don't get the privileges of one.

Second, and this one is more relevant to the current topic of discussion: notice that i kept saying "potentially controversial" in the previous paragraph. That means things that haven't already been established to be controversial. If we're having a conversation about the ranking of Venusaur, and I say "Well Charizard Y is only good on TR anyways so Venusaur doesn't have a niche," or if we weren't talking about anything at all and I say "I think Zard Y is best on TR," that is a potentially controversial statement because I am the first to discuss Zard Y TR and am contributing by bringing a new topic to the discussion. If pressed on the matter I would then continue to provide my reasons why I think Zard Y is best on TR. But if someone's already mentioned that they think Zard Y isn't best on TR and I come in and say "Zard Y is best on TR" I'm not fucking contributing anything, I am wasting space. There's exactly one person to whom your personal opinions matter and it is you. If you are able to provide information or arguments that contribute to someone else's knowledge, and that new knowledge causes them to reconsider their personal opinions, well, that's the goal of a discussion. But just your raw opinion: it's entirely worthless to everyone. Keep it in your head.



As for thoughts on Volcanion: I built a team with it, it's brutal vs Trick Room. Status as a rain check is overhyped since Kingdra owns it anyways, as does every single other dragon. Didn't seem obviously suspect worthy to me, it did pretty well in some games but was far from just destroying opponents. It could potentially be sleeper suspect-worthy since my opponents seemed to have trouble OHKOing it and it hits pretty damn hard. I ran goggles and came across like three brelooms in 5 games, i guess it was hyped as a big steamy counter, which is cute because even at +0 it doesnt ohko big steamy with a 5 hit bullet seed. get owned kids lol. I didn't fight any opposing big steamy which is obviously a big part of forming your opinion about a mon so i dont know how infuriating it is to face yet so i cant really form a good opinion on if it's suspect worthy.

PS the nickname for volcanion is big steamy so we dont confuse it with volc(arona)
 
I'd like to say that, yes, the experience arguably means you can shortcut treating those types of argument, and I take stratos' argument as fully as an argument can be taken, but i'd prefer it if everyone stopped using one-liners / super-short posts in general. There are certainly edge cases where I can consider it justified (nearly everyone agrees that X is broken), but even then i'd prefer it if everyone just stopped doing that.

as with all suggestions that I set out I will inevitably break this one in spectacular fashion but until then I shall strive not to do so
 
I've been nicknaming it Vulcan, Star Trek reference and cool name overall without typing out the oh so long, "Volcanion." Which takes a whole three more letters. Nevertheless, we still need to abbreviate everything (and although I am being kinda sarcastic I do call it Vulcan, good name.)
Also I dunno why you guys are saying it beats Rachi Azu, all Azu has to do is run Knock Off and boop! It does do better than Heatran, admittedly, because of its Aqua Jet immunity. However, it by no means beats Rachi + Azu.
Edit: not saying Rachi is banworthy by the way, just sayin that Volcanion is only slightly better at checking it than, say, Bulky Zardy. And no, I'm not saying Bulky Zardy beats Azu Rachi
Second edit: sorry more to say qq
Stratos why do you say it (Vulcan qq) is brutal vs trick room?
 
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Volcanion performs quite well against Rachi Azu largely because of the pressure it applies, even when it isn't on the field.

Obviously this is somewhat based on theorymon because it is quite new, but I present the following scenario as an example: Let's say you have Rachi and a +6 Azu out against a fully healthy Lando-I + Ferrothorn. Normally, this would be a great situation for you, as Jirachi can click Follow Me and Azu AJets the Lando-I. However, if Volcanion is waiting in the back, Azu has to think twice about clicking Aqua Jet, because if it switches in on the Lando-I slot, you'd then have a Jirachi and Azu up against a healed Volcanion and Ferrothorn. In this case, Volc threatens Jirachi and doesn't even have to worry about Azumarill because it's faster, so the Heat Wave / Fire Blast Jirachi is incredibly free, leaving Ferrothorn able to target Azu.

Basically, Azumarill becomes a lot less scary when it can't use its priority attack and is left with lowish bulk and super low base 50 speed.
 
I understand the example and agree that Volcanion contributes to winning in that scenario, but lets say the Azu just knocks off the Ferro? Bop dash imo

Again just to clarify, I agree that Volcanion does kinda ease the matchup vs Azu Rachi, but it's only a check, not a counter
Edit: what the fuck am i doing typing out volcanion when i can use the obviously superior Vulcan
 
By the way, as a guy who did play with Knock Azumarill - Volcanion's capable of going before azumarill (depending of course on creep but short of full-on Jolly nature it shouldn't be that much), and using Sludge Bomb to do a metric ton to it (252+ SpA Volcanion Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 260-306 (64.3 - 75.7%), in addition to taking down Jirachi.

(I'm not really sure about other people's preferred Azumarill spreads, and I don't think anyone knows what the standard Volcanion spread will be yet - but either way, Sludge Bomb does a ton and i'm fairly certain that Azumarill can get outsped. Feel free to contradict me if i'm way off base as regards those EV spreads though. Also, I assume Volcanion will use Sludge Bomb because it's sort of short on fourth moves, though I could be wrong there too so feel free to disagree there too.)

edit:

by the way shouts to big steamy which I had a fling with as a name but it's time for the master race nickname which is -

-

Volcano
 
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I think the Jirachi issue overall boils down to A) getting rid of Jirachi quickly and B) having a game plan for how to beat +6 Azumarill when Rachi isn't there. At the end of the day it comes down to the fact Jirachi is hella difficult to OHKO. For instance, both CharY Heat Wave in sun and Life Orb Landorus-I Earth Power aren't guarenteed OHKOes on the standard Jirachi set, which I think puts into perspective how hard a task it is to get rid of Jirachi quickly.

This being said, if you have a good enough answer to a +6 Azumarill, you should be alright as long as you can get rid of Jirachi as fast as possible. I think what makes Jirachi hardest to deal with, however, is positioning. If you leave yourself too open to an Azumarill and Jirachi any given turn (or allow them to get in for free via a KO), you risk the pair switching in and then getting that Belly Drum off as you switch in the things to handle Jirachi, and this happening can have catastrophic consequences.

Overall, I think the compromise you have to make on this is that you can't give the two Pokemon that sort of opportunity. Playing around them is a similar strategy to playing against Perish Trap, where the measures you take generally need to be very thought out and you can't fall into any traps. Azu + Jirachi is a combination that forces very safe, calculated play. Whether that's truly "broken" is up to you, though I personally feel that it isn't broken, just annoying, and I think that is a distinction that is important to the discussion. I do agree Volcanion is likely to have an effect on Jirachi + Azumarill's effectiveness, so am interested to see where things go from here.

tl:dr Volcanion hyyyype!
 
Nollan said:
I think the Jirachi issue overall boils down to A) getting rid of Jirachi quickly and B) having a game plan for how to beat +6 Azumarill when Rachi isn't there. At the end of the day it comes down to the fact Jirachi is hella difficult to OHKO. For instance, both CharY Heat Wave in sun and Life Orb Landorus-I Earth Power aren't guarenteed OHKOes on the standard Jirachi set, which I think puts into perspective how hard a task it is to get rid of Jirachi quickly.

This being said, if you have a good enough answer to a +6 Azumarill, you should be alright as long as you can get rid of Jirachi as fast as possible. I think what makes Jirachi hardest to deal with, however, is positioning. If you leave yourself too open to an Azumarill and Jirachi any given turn (or allow them to get in for free via a KO), you risk the pair switching in and then getting that Belly Drum off as you switch in the things to handle Jirachi, and this happening can have catastrophic consequences.

Overall, I think the compromise you have to make on this is that you can't give the two Pokemon that sort of opportunity. Playing around them is a similar strategy to playing against Perish Trap, where the measures you take generally need to be very thought out and you can't fall into any traps. Azu + Jirachi is a combination that forces very safe, calculated play. Whether that's truly "broken" is up to you, though I personally feel that it isn't broken, just annoying, and I think that is a distinction that is important to the discussion. I do agree Volcanion is likely to have an effect on Jirachi + Azumarill's effectiveness, so am interested to see where things go from here.

tl:dr Volcanion hyyyype!
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thetalkingtree said:
Volcanion performs quite well against Rachi Azu largely because of the pressure it applies, even when it isn't on the field.

Obviously this is somewhat based on theorymon because it is quite new, but I present the following scenario as an example: Let's say you have Rachi and a +6 Azu out against a fully healthy Lando-I + Ferrothorn. Normally, this would be a great situation for you, as Jirachi can click Follow Me and Azu AJets the Lando-I. However, if Volcanion is waiting in the back, Azu has to think twice about clicking Aqua Jet, because if it switches in on the Lando-I slot, you'd then have a Jirachi and Azu up against a healed Volcanion and Ferrothorn. In this case, Volc threatens Jirachi and doesn't even have to worry about Azumarill because it's faster, so the Heat Wave / Fire Blast Jirachi is incredibly free, leaving Ferrothorn able to target Azu.

Basically, Azumarill becomes a lot less scary when it can't use its priority attack and is left with lowish bulk and super low base 50 speed.
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I don't understand why Volcanion exactly beats Jirachi+Azumarill. You don't just "use volcanion to play around it", you kind of just let it get fucked by Knock Off (hell even Play Rough still hits it pretty hard and if Jirachi dies there's always switching in something that annoys the fuck out of Volcanion) or attempt to KO the Jirachi with Overheat as the Azumarill kills it with Knock Off. Trick Room Volcanions also suck ass against Jirachi+Azumarill because a +6 Azumarill can just OHKO a Hoopa-U or w/e trick room setter is being used and sequentially KO the Volcanion since it outspeeds it.
As for it pressuring Azumarill, pretty much everything does "pressure" it. It's just a matter of what it's going to get rid of next, especially if it has Knock Off - there is no single pokemon that Azumarill cannot deal with given that coverage, like hell not even Amoonguss/Venusaur are fully safe esp when a Jirachi is in their way. Volcanion is not special just because it gets Water Absorb, this just means it can switch in IF the opponent uses Aqua Jet, and then it has to worry about either KOing the Jirachi and letting the opp send in something that takes out w/e Azumarill can't or possibly just dying like everything else which is likely given the # of trick room Volcanions I have seen so far.
e: this entire post was bad prediction lmao
 
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-snip-

I'll edit this later because Arcticblast clarified this is in fact not a suspect thread but a meta discussion thread.
 
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Volcanion is very threatening to a pre-belly drum azu + rachi because A. You have two mons, which means that during the belly drum + follow me turn you can easily take rachi down with a heat wave / any move from partner B. you cant aqua jet a volcanion, so you'd have to knock it off and, depending on how much speed that azumarill has rather than hp, sludge bomb can either KO from 75% or do a significant chunk before that happens, and C. It forces azu to either focus on volcanion for a turn or accept a 1-2 turn death (depending on what the opponent brings in of course).
 
for tr I've really been liking volcanion with Bronzong as a tr setter. it switches into dragons easily (bar hydreigon) and can hit hard with gyro ball as well as set up tr with ease. it resists ground and rock. volcanion can also take the fire attacks aimed at Bronzong. with a fairy type like sylveon as a switchin to strong dark attacks, you have a good tr core.
 
I really like Porygon2 to set trick room for Vulcan tbh. Ohkos lando, access to tbolt which is really nice next to Vulcan, and it beats dragons. Pretty sweet if you ask me
 
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