np Doubles OU Stage 1.5 - Leavin on a Jet Plane

[mimi]

Mega Salamence has officially been banned from the Doubles metagame

reason:

Mega Salamence solidified its self as one of the most centralizing, and powerful threats to ever be allowed in the Doubles metagame. The most common way that Salamence was used was a Dragon Dance set used in tandem with a Pokemon that could use a redirecting move such as Jirachi or Togekiss. With this set alone Mega Salamence was able to set up and beat a majority of the tier. There were ways to beat it after a Dragon Dance, but those were few and far between, and could often be stopped with simple support. As a result, teams would often have to run a hard counter, and 5 or 6 Pokemon that Salamence wouldn't have been able to set up on, because with one Dragon Dance alone Salamence was able to win games with very little effort. A lot of Pokemon dropped significantly in usage due to the simple fact Salamence was able to find room to set up on them, which heavily centralized the metagame. Due to these reasons, Salamencite has been suspected, and removed from the Doubles metagame and will only be allowed for use in the Doubles Ubers metagame.

This thread will be used to discuss post Salamence ban thoughts. What Pokemon will become good again? what Pokemon will fall in usage? How is the metagame going to change in the near future? What do you expect to see in SPL even?

Post them here :]

pwne edit: better song

 

[Morbid Mind]

Liked for the Metallica reference.

Tbh the ban was more than right. He's a really good, powerful mon who centralized the metagame and turned it boring because he was the King who ruled everything.

 

[kingofmars]

The only thing that will change is Jirachi loses some of its niche, Mence didn't have that large of an impact on what mons were good

 

[Laga]

hi I'm viable again :]

seriously though mega venusaur will become a great sleep spammer + rain stopper again without having to run the risk of seeing a mence and telling its trainer to forfeit. I expect it to get a hell of a lot more usage now. I disagree with KoM tbh, Hitmontop n scrafty kinda sucked when mence was around..

I definitely also expect to see musketeers shoot up again. Keldeo and Terrakion are great checks to mega Kanga, and also generally do a lot of damage to almost anything. Choice Scarf Landorus-T will probably start 'feeling' a lot more like the best mon in the meta (gotta admit that thing was hopeless vs ddmence), but I don't expect it to rise or fall in usage.

 

[Bughouse]

Fighting types become better, which in turn helps check some of the Kanga madness that was seen on the Mence ladder since everyone was overpreparing for Mence.

Personally, I expect to see Mega Kanga, Metagross, and Diancie co-dominate, since Diancie and Metagross are good against some of the things that check Kanga. Mega Gengar and Mega Lopunny will also become better.

The mons that will benefit the most I think though are Escavalier, Scizor, and Ferrothorn. Being able to run a Steel that doesn't also have to resist Flying raises their viability by quite a bit, imo.

 

[xzern]

I personally dont see anything being too amazingly different than what it was before, except maybe mega gallade seeing more light as a check to mega kangaskhan, since gallade was previously stopped cold by mega mence. Also bulky grass types are viable again !_!

 

[Hashtag]

thoughts on mence

fighting types are back, and this gives the meta a chance to slow down a bit, and run some bulk, as we no longer have to worry about preemptively stopping mence sweeps, as it needed incredibly specific sets to switch in, and take out mence. i like ferrothorn a lot. It has been one of my favorite mons as a defensive switch-in for a while, with iron barbs and a lot of bulk. he didnt really fare too well against mence, but with mence gone, it can do a lot of good for a lot of teams.

also jirachi sucks now. deal with it jirachi.

edit: whoa that makes my image really small

 

[Arcticblast]

Diancie was already the best Mega, and tbh it probably still is

PREPARE YOUR METAGROSS

 

[Stratos]

My predictions for the meta (starting with the mons most directly affected and rippling out)

Jirachi is going to tank. It's always been inferior FM user except for Mence, who it partners amazingly alongside and who makes a flying resist incredibly useful. Don't expect to see this much more anymore.

Charizard and Venusaur are on the way up. Goggle Rachi + Mence destroyed that combo, and even if you didn't have venu, zard had a terrible matchup against mence. But zard is still a good mon (diancie existing kind of hurts but it'll live, just not in S rank anymore).

Mawile drops. It used to be super good because it had decent matchups against Kang, Mence, Diancie, and Metagross (basically the only four other common megas) but now that mence is gone (and its matchups vs diancie and gross really arent the best), and now that Zard is back, it's going to recede to XY levels.

The entire 100-120 tier (most notably: Terrakion, Keldeo, Latios) see a resurgence. Diancie and Metagross still bug these guys so I don't expect them to be as good as XY (except maybe Latios) but 110 is the new speed cap.

Kangaskhan will see more use, but will actually be worse. Mence did a good job suppressing many Kang checks but when Kang returns as the meta's primary physical booster, people will be more prepared for it like they were in XY.

Amoonguss and especially Togekiss will improve. Rachi is falling, so they'll naturally rise, and now these guys don't have to worry about Mence's strong attacks.

Diancie will be a little better. Beats Zard, for one, and what it lost in checking mence it makes up for in the rises of the 108-110s i mentioned earlier, zard, and kiss, all of which it donks.

Darkrai and Weavile will return to "huh, weird pick" status, though better than in xy because diancie and gross help keep fightings in check.

Fightings other than Terrak/Keld/maybe Gallade I don't expect to get any better. look at basically every mon I listed as improving above and stop wondering why.

 

[shaian]

Diancie + Darkrai OTP PLS \o/

 

[Braverius]

I'm not too worried about how the metagame changes due to this as I think outside of maybe a little influence from Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie, Mega Latias, and potentially Mega Lopunny and Mega Slowbro, there isn't a whole lot that we got in ORAS that is going to significantly alter the metagame from what it was before the game was released.

My main issue is that Salamencite could not have been suspect tested at a worse time. Literally everything that could possibly go against suspect testing it right now was going against it. It was right before SPL, so none of the more highly touted players were going to show their hand as far as team comp went. It was right after the release and probably rushed a bit because of SPL, so there was very little familiarity with the metagame and very little time to develop that. The ladder being "suspect only" was also really silly imho and regardless of how hard it was to find games on it otherwise, I think it was really counterproductive in general as no one got to see Salamencite, but rather a metagame without it, for the last and arguably most important week of the test.

I originally voted to not ban, but then abstained as I don't think I was convinced either way. I think it would have been a better idea to quickban and revisit after SPL, and I think banning it ultimately is the "lesser of two evils" since it couldn't be quickbanned, but I do think that in a few months it should be revisited and given another shot. This suspect test was really poorly timed and poorly executed, and I think it's unfair to deem this the final result of Salamencite's fate in doubles regardless of whether or not it ends up being stupidly overpowered in a future suspect test or not.

 

[Geopolitics]

I'm still very new to the doubles meta, but at first sight, Rain got significantly worse due to mons like venusaur becoming a lot more viable. I'm not too sure on how Rain will adapt, and if any major adjustments will be needed. Some teams could probably just slap a deoxys on them to remedy this weakness. How do you all think rain will adapt (if it needs to?)

 

[Electrolyte]

Flying-weak mons aren't going to be stellar just yet, but they'll be a lot better than they used to now that Quick Guard is enough to cover the most popular Flying-type attacks in the tier. Poor Jirachi just lost the best friend it ever had imo.

Weather is probably going to be more popular. Mence was great at stopping it but not too great at pairing with it - so, more Zard Y and Toed teams please. I don't expect Sand to grow much just yet, though.

As Pwnemon said, pretty much everything between 100-120 Speed are going to rise just because the average ratio of power / bulk / speed amongst them has also declined significantly now that Mence, the outlier, is no longer present. 110 is the new speed tier because pretty much everything between 100 and 110 is beaten by Mega Diancie lol


Actually I'm really excited for more top tier mega diversity now that one thing no longer dominates. How about some Mega Swampert amirite

 

[Laurel]

I'm happy Mence got banned but in turn my best team will get worse x:

Things that will happen

• Mega Kangaskhan back to top Mega
• Suicune and Zapdos to drop back down in usage
• Mega Metagross (which was good before) will go up in usage because people will stop using Mence
• Charizard-Y to raise in popularity (Mence set up fodder)
• Amoonguss + Mega Venusaur rise in popularity

Things that might happen

• Mega Camerupt becomes god-mode mega because Mence resisted its stabs
• Mega Camerupt also becomes god-mode mega because sun will become more popular
• Mega Camerupt again becomes god-mode mega because rain will become less popular (nobody used it before but in theory)
• Mega Latias becomes very popular to check the new threat Mega Camerupt

Things that I'd love to see happen

• Mega Camerupt suspect test

Things that won't happen

• Diancie will not get better Pwnemon, I used it as a Mega Mence check and now becomes are going to use more grass-types.

 

[Arcticblast]

Things that might happen

• Mega Camerupt becomes god-mode mega because Mence resisted its stabs
• Mega Camerupt also becomes god-mode mega because sun will become more popular
• Mega Camerupt again becomes god-mode mega because rain will become less popular (nobody used it before but in theory)
• Mega Latias becomes very popular to check the new threat Mega Camerupt

Things that I'd love to see happen

• Mega Camerupt suspect test

what is Rotom-W

Things that won't happen

• Diancie will not get better Pwnemon, I used it as a Mega Mence check and now becomes are going to use more grass-types.

If you used Mega Diancie as a "Mence check" you're doing it wrong. You should be using it for 160/160/110 offenses and the literal best Rock STAB in the entire game. Diamond Storm spam flat out wins games.

 

[Miridy]

Eh, so it happened, it was a close vote though, interested on seeing how the metagame will develop now.
I'm not seeing Jirachi that much anymore, though I believe we might see an Amoonguss rise as the premier follow me user, shortly followed (no pun intended) by Togekiss.
Though I must say, sun rise does not help Amoonguss one bit, especially with Venusaur being a grass type, lookin at it, Togekiss might have an edge on Amoonguss for this.

 

[Laurel]

what is Rotom-W
If you used Mega Diancie as a "Mence check" you're doing it wrong. You should be using it for 160/160/110 offenses and the literal best Rock STAB in the entire game. Diamond Storm spam flat out wins games.

I used it because it's good but it also checked Mence. It's been my mega of choice since ORAS came out. Personally I use Hidden Power Grass on Mega Camerupt for Rotom-W, Gastrodon, Mega Swampert etc.

 

[Electrolyte]

Mega Camerupt may be on the rise, but not necessarily for the reasons Laurel posted. The only difference that Mence made was at that time Mega Mawile became a much more popular TR Mega just because it could also take advantage of Mence's presence to gain momentum. Now that Mence is gone, Cam has less competition, but not necessarily less counters (because Mence wasn't one.)

Cam's real strength is that now it can pair with Grass-types a lot more easily now that Mence is gone. Amoonguss + Mega Cam in TR can be a real thing now, making Cam the new main TR Mega. Cam + Breloom also have decent synergy for a semi-TR team, and has the added benefit of being able to handle fairly well the other popular Megas (Kang, Diancie, etc) under TR.

And I don't think Mega Latias is necessary to check Mega Camerupt. It already has a lot of trouble getting past Water-types all by itself, and even with more room to breathe now that Mence is gone, its partners are still fairly predictable (I think Cam is going to have a considerable amount of difficulty getting past Rain, especially now that Talon is pretty much staple on it)



Also Diancie doesn't have much to fear from Grass-types. Breloom won't dare switch or stay in unless it has a Sash, and Amoonguss / Venusaur cannot easily take repeated Diamond Storms (or Psychics, if you run mixed). Most other Grass-types are a lot more situational (eg Skymin / Ferrothorn) and are quite easily handled by most well-built teams. It's definitely hindered more by Steels and Water-types, but those aren't really on the rise.

 

[Pane]

I don't really care about the salamencite ban but i think it's a mistake, Megamence was the only new mega capable of "refreshing" the metagame and now basically we are playing XY again.

pwne edit: nice

 

[Idyll]

I'm really excited to using these two again. In the MegaMence meta, these two couldn't really do much since they were basically set-up bait, which spelled the downfall of Sun as a whole. Dedicating for the inevitable JiraMence match-up took much significant teamslots which kinda limited Sun's viablity as a whole; having a main core beat by Mega Mence was a huge no-no in teambuilding and preparing for Mence kinda limited options. However, with the loss of MegaMence, I expect them Zard Y as one of the top players in the meta once again. It's not all good though, since there's Mega Diancie and Terrakion still waiting for it, but it's a nice start =]

 

[Braverius]

I'm happy Mence got banned but in turn my best team will get worse x:

Things that will happen

• Mega Kangaskhan back to top Mega
• Suicune and Zapdos to drop back down in usage
• Mega Metagross (which was good before) will go up in usage because people will stop using Mence
• Charizard-Y to raise in popularity (Mence set up fodder)
• Amoonguss + Mega Venusaur rise in popularity

Things that might happen

• Mega Camerupt becomes god-mode mega because Mence resisted its stabs
• Mega Camerupt also becomes god-mode mega because sun will become more popular
• Mega Camerupt again becomes god-mode mega because rain will become less popular (nobody used it before but in theory)
• Mega Latias becomes very popular to check the new threat Mega Camerupt

Things that I'd love to see happen

• Mega Camerupt suspect test

Things that won't happen

• Diancie will not get better Pwnemon, I used it as a Mega Mence check and now becomes are going to use more grass-types.

I admittedly haven't played a ton of Doubles since ORAS was released, but it doesn't take a lot to realize that most of this post is extremely misleading. Mega Kanga will probably be top mega, Suicune and Zapdos will drop, Char-Y will rise, Amoonguss + Venusaur will rise, that's all true. That's pretty much a given anyways. But this "suspect test" Camerupt stuff? Please, this brings back memories of the self-described all-knowing sage HabibsHotDogs and his fabulous wonderful unstoppable S-Tier Volcarona. Something that is so horribly limited outside of Trick Room in a format that has about 50-60% of teams that can elbow-drop Trick Room setup is not a consistent play. It can't KO much of anything outside of sun that an equivalent in its place couldn't do, and if you're relying on sun AND Trick Room to go up, you're relying on the opponent 1) not having a Thundurus / priority Taunt user, 2) running Mental Herb Trick Room / Aromatisse / Slowbro, 3) maneuvering around to get in redirection under TR as the opponent typically more quickly gets in its checks and counters, and then 4) getting back in position to use Camerupt again 2-3 turns later. This isn't anything more than a noob-beater and something to step on the 30-40% of unprepared teams it'll run into.

Haven't tested Latias a lot, but I think it's probably true that it has some potential in SmogDubs, albeit definitely not because Camerupt is going to rise and definitely not to the point where it's "very popular". And Diancie isn't going to fall off a whole lot, although it'll likely drop a little bit. It's still a really solid option to check a plethora of threats as it's the only viable fairy that resists a Brave Bird and Return.

EDIT: I hope to god you are joking. After hearing the Smogcast it's hard for me to assume that at all, so forgive me if that's the case.

 

[Bughouse]

Lol @ everyone thinking Diancie is gonna fall.

Jirachi being replaced by Togekiss is the best thing to happen for Diancie since sliced bread.

 

[Laurel]

I admittedly haven't played a ton of Doubles since ORAS was released, but it doesn't take a lot to realize that most of this post is extremely misleading. Mega Kanga will probably be top mega, Suicune and Zapdos will drop, Char-Y will rise, Amoonguss + Venusaur will rise, that's all true. That's pretty much a given anyways. But this "suspect test" Camerupt stuff? Please, this brings back memories of the self-described all-knowing sage HabibsHotDogs and his fabulous wonderful unstoppable S-Tier Volcarona. Something that is so horribly limited outside of Trick Room in a format that has about 50-60% of teams that can elbow-drop Trick Room setup is not a consistent play. It can't KO much of anything outside of sun that an equivalent in its place couldn't do, and if you're relying on sun AND Trick Room to go up, you're relying on the opponent 1) not having a Thundurus / priority Taunt user, 2) running Mental Herb Trick Room / Aromatisse / Slowbro, 3) maneuvering around to get in redirection under TR as the opponent typically more quickly gets in its checks and counters, and then 4) getting back in position to use Camerupt again 2-3 turns later. This isn't anything more than a noob-beater and something to step on the 30-40% of unprepared teams it'll run into.

Haven't tested Latias a lot, but I think it's probably true that it has some potential in SmogDubs, albeit definitely not because Camerupt is going to rise and definitely not to the point where it's "very popular". And Diancie isn't going to fall off a whole lot, although it'll likely drop a little bit. It's still a really solid option to check a plethora of threats as it's the only viable fairy that resists a Brave Bird and Return.

EDIT: I hope to god you are joking. After hearing the Smogcast it's hard for me to assume that at all, so forgive me if that's the case.

Yo the whole Camerupt thing is a complete joke but it definitely doesn't need sun. I just really like it, but saying 60% of teams elbow drop Trick Room is a complete exaggeration. Amoonguss is very low in usage right now compared to XY and Camerupt pops it anyways, Bisharp is not nearly as popular as I think it should be, and most TR setters can easily get it up vs a Kanga. Hariyama / Conk feels like a staple for a dark-type resist with Camerupt/Cress too which handles Kanga.

Trick Room is going to be better than ever with the ability to run any of Ampharos, Camerupt, and Mawile which all have different counters.

 

[Qazoo306]

Trick Room is going to be better than ever with the ability to run any of Ampharos, Camerupt, and Mawile which all have different counters.

If TR isn't up, Landorous says hello.

Edit@ Pwnemon
All 3 get outspeed and OHKOed with EQ

 

[Stratos]

If TR isn't up, Landorous says hello.

yea once i see someone running all three of ampharos camerupt and mawile on the same team i'll make sure to eq spam their ass into oblivion

edit: because laga is convinced this can be misinterpreted: tr teams are only running one of those at a time. One ground weak is not going to suddenly turn your team into shit. Besides, TR always has cress which beats lando anyways.