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rofl @ all the people thinking sableye is ban worthy (?) or broken (??????????) when it's not even a top 10 mega what the fuck happened here??
will post my exact thoughts on metagross after I inevitably get the easiest reqs of my life (for the record, after discussing this with my good friend McMeghan, I believe that it has to get the fuck out of here if we want to reach anything in this metagame) but good lord if you have problems with sableye in any way (???????????????????????????????????????????) then maybe you should re-evaluate the way you make Pokemon teams what the actual hell is going on
Question: Who here is talking about mega sableye? I'm pretty sure this thread is about mega metagross.
My personal stance is that if you need a scarfer just to check something that doesn't even need to setup to be threatening, something is up. Having no offensive counters is one thing, that applies to lots of stuff, but having few to no offensive checks is a very bad thing.
Also, I really dislike the combination of physical bulk plus speed. At the moment, one of the only things offensive teams have to check faster mons is priority. Mega meta takes absolutely nothing from anything other then sucker punch, which limits his checks. I'm alright with things having limited checks post-setup, because offense isn't supposed to let their opponent get setup turns easily, but having limited checks pre-setup is a good sign of a broken mon.
Let me start this off by saying that this thing needs to go. It's boring and everyone uses it. It's the epitome of smogon. People just mindlessly put it on there team an get kills when there are other mega's that are not only cooler but better in certain situations. It's also a pain and a half to deal with if you aren't carrying Slowbro or Skarmory (Which I guess most users here do which is boring). It makes creative teambuilding impossible because every game you'll play Johnny who heard this was a good pokemon so they decided to use it. I vote ban because it's just terrible for this kind of slow singles metagame where most of it's answers are banned. If this were double battles then it'd be fine but right now this Mega Metagross is face the smogon and it needs to go.
Why be creative when the most common mons are so good? They're as common as they are for a reason.
This is the mindset of most players and that is more the cause of "lack of creativity" than mega gross(though I can't ignore that he plays a role!) The fact that most players are sheep also isn't a valid point for banning him.
Metagrossite is Kinda just really hard for me to judge atm since mgross has his flaws to go with the amazing positives of using him.
Right now, i'd say to ban because he bitchslaps a large majority of the tier for 50% or more and has quite a bit of moveset variance, making him take multiple counters at times and causing you to lose a mon or have a mon take a bunch of damage because he had an uncommon yet still viable move on his set. He reminds me of greninja albeit physical, cooler looking, and not having everything as stab.
He comes and goes, taking chunks of your team with him, has high speed and the ability to change his checks and counters somewhat through his highly customizable moveset.
For all suspect tests I have the same thoughts, "why should one pokemon be so over centralising that you straight up fail if you a) dont use it or b) dont dedicate at least 2 mons to deal with it. The same went for greninja and mega mence. If you don't consider mega gross when building your team you'll straight up lose to a mega gross team. Mega gross limits creativity in teambuilding and ffs this thing is too fast and strong, combined with its bulk its pretty much a slightly worse mega salamence. I have a clear philosophy on stuff like this and that is if you're forced to choose between using or countering a certain pokemon its too over centralising. When I get reqs this thing is gawn
The difference is, the few Pokemon that reliably counter MegaGross happen to be the most common Pokemon in the OU tier-Mew and (Mega) Scizor. And HP Fire can't even 2HKO Mega Scizor with a little SpDef investment.
0 SpA Mega Metagross Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 176+ SpD Mega Scizor: 140-168 (40.8 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
That's more than a little investment. That sacrifices a nature boost and a lot of EVs. Plus, assuming you run the remaining 84 EVs in Attack, even if you have Swords Dance you can't KO:
+2 84 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 205-243 (68.1 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Doublade (252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 90-108 (27.9 - 33.5%) -- 31.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock)
Arcanine (-1 252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 132-156 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery; must be wary of Clear Body pre-Mega)
Skamory (if it has at least 63.5% of its health left, it can live to Counter two Hammer Arms and beat Mega Meta)
Bronzong
Mega Aggron
Cofagrigus
CM Rest Manaphy
Tangrowth
Hard checks:
Cresselia (Loses to Sub PuP unless it runs the sub-optimal Shadow Ball)
Alomomola (See Cresselia, but without the Shadow Ball part)
Defensive RestTalk Gyarados (Loses to the uncommon and sub-optimal Thunder Punch; otherwise a full counter)
I don't have too much time so I'll just look at your hard checks and full counters:
A few of the counters are subptimal in OU. Doublade, Bronzong, Cofagrigus, Aggron, Gourgeist are all C Rank iirc. And Arcanine is D. Also, many don't have reliable recovery so they are 1 or 2 time switches to MegaGross at best. Also, some imply specific sets, such as Counter on Skarm, or CM Rest Manaphy, and Bronzong generally doesn't carry much to hit MegaGross. A lot of this is forcing otherwise bad Pokemon into OU to stop one thing, AKA overcentralization.
The checks can be more viable but again, a lot of them don't carry anything for MegaGross. Celebi might carry Earth Power, and give up coverage, Cress, as you said, shouldn't have to run Shadow Ball, and Psychic and Ice Beam do around about nothing as MegaGross will end up getting boosts from Meteor Mash.
There are counters, of course, but many aren't great in OU and then they need to specifically be prepared to hurt MegaGross. I would call that Overcentralization
I don't usually post on these threads but I'm going give my 2 cents regarding the matter. Burn completely ends Mega Metagross. Defensive Rotom-Wash and Sableye, both who run Will-O-Wisp and stop it in its tracks, pose a huge threat for Mega Metagross. Sure you can say Metagross can run Grass Knot but on a Bold Rotom-W Grass Knot doesn't do much (0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (20 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 40-48 (13.2 - 15.8%). Aside from that sure Rotom-W takes a good 43.8 - 51.8% from Zen Headbutt but after a will-o-wisp it only does 21.7 - 25.7% which allows Rotom to Rest up or Painsplit the HP back and proceed to Volt switch out of there. Sure Mega Metagross is a huge threat but that doesnt mean it can't be crippled seeing how things like Scald and Will-o-wisp are running rampant. Although rare we also have things like Choice Scarf Heatran who just destroys Mega Metagross with an Overheat or Fireblast. Once a player realizes that it doesn't have air balloon most people assume it would rather be running leftovers and not a scarf. There are tons of thing in the metagame that makes dealing Mega Metagross alot easier. He also keeps things like Clefable and friends in check. Although a huge threat I don't believe that its broken. I'd easily go for a No BAN
There are counters, of course, but many aren't great in OU and then they need to specifically be prepared to hurt MegaGross. I would call that Overcentralization
It would be overcentralization if these less viable checks were becoming common because of Metagross. However, that isn't the case since Doublade, Bronzong, Cofagrigus, Aggron, Gourgeist and Arcanine are still rarely seen. Also Celebi and Cresselia often run Thunder Wave which is enough to neutralize the threat of a sweep. Earth Power on Celebi is also great for Heatran and Bisharp who don't expect you to stay in.
I have been informed that Skarmory runs Counter more often now (I didn't know this, someone told me) which could be because of Metagross. However Counter does allow Skarmory to deal significant damage to many other threats and isn't a niche move that only works against Metagross even if it has become more common because of it.
Float Stone Slowbro is a perfect example of overcentralization since that's literally only for Metagross, but that I don't think those are common at all.
EDIT: Jaguar360 Slowking is also a pretty strong counter if you want to add that to your list. :)
I don't usually post on these threads but I'm going give my 2 cents regarding the matter. Burn completely ends Mega Metagross. Defensive Rotom-Wash and Sableye, both who run Will-O-Wisp and stop it in its tracks, pose a huge threat for Mega Metagross. Sure you can say Metagross can run Grass Knot but on a Bold Rotom-W Grass Knot doesn't do much (0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (20 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 40-48 (13.2 - 15.8%). Aside from that sure Rotom-W takes a good 43.8 - 51.8% from Zen Headbutt but after a will-o-wisp it only does 21.7 - 25.7% which allows Rotom to Rest up or Painsplit the HP back and proceed to Volt switch out of there. Sure Mega Metagross is a huge threat but that doesnt mean it can't be crippled seeing how things like Scald and Will-o-wisp are running rampant. Although rare we also have things like Choice Scarf Heatran who just destroys Mega Metagross with an Overheat or Fireblast. Once a player realizes that it doesn't have air balloon most people assume it would rather be running leftovers and not a scarf. There are tons of thing in the metagame that makes dealing Mega Metagross alot easier. He also keeps things like Clefable and friends in check. Although a huge threat I don't believe that its broken. I'd easily go for a No BAN
1) Rotom-W is outsped and 2HKOed by Zen Headbutt after Stealth Rock so it dies before it can fire off a Will-o-Wisp or Rest.
2) Nobody switches in Heatran against Mega Metagross unless it is Scarfed. And if it EQ or Hammer Arms, you are dead before you move. If you switch it in on any other move, fine but it is a dead giveaway that you are Scarfed.
3) Mega Metagross holds Fairies back, sure but we don't keep broken things to keep other broken things in checks. If Fairies start dominating (don't think so since Heatran and Scizors are still around), then we will ban the broken Fairies as well.
That's more than a little investment. That sacrifices a nature boost and a lot of EVs. Plus, assuming you run the remaining 84 EVs in Attack, even if you have Swords Dance you can't KO:
+2 84 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 205-243 (68.1 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It doesn't matter, because Mega Scizor can Roost off the damage and even keep Swords Dancing until it gets to +6, and this is assuming MegaGross even survives that long. Mega Scizor is a counter, plain and simple.
I don't usually post on these threads but I'm going give my 2 cents regarding the matter. Burn completely ends Mega Metagross. Defensive Rotom-Wash and Sableye, both who run Will-O-Wisp and stop it in its tracks, pose a huge threat for Mega Metagross. Sure you can say Metagross can run Grass Knot but on a Bold Rotom-W Grass Knot doesn't do much (0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (20 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 40-48 (13.2 - 15.8%). Aside from that sure Rotom-W takes a good 43.8 - 51.8% from Zen Headbutt but after a will-o-wisp it only does 21.7 - 25.7% which allows Rotom to Rest up or Painsplit the HP back and proceed to Volt switch out of there. Sure Mega Metagross is a huge threat but that doesnt mean it can't be crippled seeing how things like Scald and Will-o-wisp are running rampant. Although rare we also have things like Choice Scarf Heatran who just destroys Mega Metagross with an Overheat or Fireblast. Once a player realizes that it doesn't have air balloon most people assume it would rather be running leftovers and not a scarf. There are tons of thing in the metagame that makes dealing Mega Metagross alot easier. He also keeps things like Clefable and friends in check. Although a huge threat I don't believe that its broken. I'd easily go for a No BAN
I agree totally, that burn stops it. But-- how do Rotom-W or Sableye get a free switch into Meta to burn it? Zen Headbutt is a 70% chance to 2HKO on the switch after Rocks and Leftovers to Rotom, and Meteor Mash is a 99% chance to 2HKO after rocks on Sableye. So, you have to sack, not to hurt MegaGross, but to have the opportunity to burn it if they stay in. As I've said before, there is almost no cost to switching out MegaGross, unlike, say, Talonflame or Zapdos, who get cut up by rocks every time they come back in.
It doesn't matter, because Mega Scizor can Roost off the damage and even keep Swords Dancing until it gets to +6, and this is assuming MegaGross even survives that long. Mega Scizor is a counter, plain and simple.
OK, Mega Scizor counters Mega Metagross but what does it prove, exactly? Showing that a Pokemon has counters and checks doesn't make it non-broken. Also, you are losing a lot of offensive presence just to check Mega Metagross (OK, suppose Mega Metagross runs HP Fire (which it doesn't since it needs to fit dual STABs, Hammer Arm, Grass Knot and Ice Punch), it still 2HKOes your spread with Stealth Rock up).
I don't usually post on these threads but I'm going give my 2 cents regarding the matter. Burn completely ends Mega Metagross. Defensive Rotom-Wash and Sableye, both who run Will-O-Wisp and stop it in its tracks, pose a huge threat for Mega Metagross. Sure you can say Metagross can run Grass Knot but on a Bold Rotom-W Grass Knot doesn't do much (0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (20 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 40-48 (13.2 - 15.8%). Aside from that sure Rotom-W takes a good 43.8 - 51.8% from Zen Headbutt but after a will-o-wisp it only does 21.7 - 25.7% which allows Rotom to Rest up or Painsplit the HP back and proceed to Volt switch out of there. Sure Mega Metagross is a huge threat but that doesnt mean it can't be crippled seeing how things like Scald and Will-o-wisp are running rampant. Although rare we also have things like Choice Scarf Heatran who just destroys Mega Metagross with an Overheat or Fireblast. Once a player realizes that it doesn't have air balloon most people assume it would rather be running leftovers and not a scarf. There are tons of thing in the metagame that makes dealing Mega Metagross alot easier. He also keeps things like Clefable and friends in check. Although a huge threat I don't believe that its broken. I'd easily go for a No BAN
Problem with all those Pokemon you mentioned? They can't switch in.
Rotom-W is 2HKO'd by Zen Headbutt after rocks, so is MSableye with Meteor Mash. We don't need you to tell us that burn severely cripples a physical attacker, fact is things can't switch in and burn.
Scarf Heatran KOs a Pokemon weak to fire, okay good to know. But can Heatran switch in? Between Hammer Arm and the rarer Earthquake I'd say it's extremely shaky.
Also if you're switching in your Metagross on a Scald you just suck.
This isn't a pro-ban post I'm just pointing out the faulty logic. It's not a check if it can't switch in and either beat it or force it out.
Chances are if you were part of about the 30+ or so deleted messages so far you either didn't follow what was said under the posting rules in the op or in the suspect etiquette thread. The prediction argument goes both ways and it's not really the strongest of points to bring to the table anyways, same deal with calcs. They're pretty basic rules and will go a long way if you plan on posting in this thread so read them and put some thought process into your responses not one liners with zero substance.
A check or a counter not being common is a bad argument. That is the entire point of the metagame. Uncommon things become more common in response to the dominance or prevalence of something else. Keldeo growing in popularity brought Celebi back up just recently, something less common became more common in response.
The only time it's a bad argument is when you have something as ludicrous as M Salamence, which had I think two counters in the entire game, that being Avalugg and sort of Porygon 2. This is clearly not the case with Metagross.
I disagree with this. Generally, Pokemon are uncommon because they are mediocre or outright bad. If a Pokemon raises significantly in usage just to counter a single omnipotent threat is actually proof that the omnipotent threat is over-centralizing.
Looking at the calcs in a previous post, it's clear that Mega Metagross has the Speed, Strength, and Bulk to plow through the best of OU minus Charizard X and Mega Sableye.
As people have stated, Metagross can't cover all the bases at once, but it almost requires sacrificing team mates to scout its moveset.
Metagross has the wallbreaking potential to tear down defensive cores, the speed (and access to Agility) to fight off Hyper Offense, and the Defenses to tank hits from Pokemon it can't OHKO and 2HKO many of them.
The only thing working against Metagross is 4MSS, which is a relatively good problem to have, as even though it can't steamroll everything in one set, it also keeps the opponent guessing.
Conclusion: You can't expect a Pokemon with 145 Tough Claws boosted Attack, 110 Speed, great coverage moves, and 80/150/110 Defenses to be healthy in OU.
Though it pains me to see one of my favorite Pokemon go, I must go with my brain rather than my heart.
I'm gonna throw in my opinion and I'm sure it's been said numerous times, but Ihave to say ban Metagrossite and my formulation is simple. It's counterless, nearly impossible to revenge kill, good speed, good power, good typing, STAB priority, a good setup move in Rock Polish, and it's versatile. There's not much to say other than it has absolutely everything a Pokémon could ever want. We banned Greninja and in my opinion(and in my experience) this thing is far more difficult to handle. Greninja also had no sure counters but you could at least revenge kill it because it was so frail, but good luck revenge killing Mega Metagross with its greater-than-Skarmory bulk, good speed, and potential priority or being at +2 speed. It's hard as hell to switch into, easy as hell for it to switch in(also unlike Greninja), and hard as hell to stop it once it gets going. I really don't see any reason not to ban it.
I decided that I'll go a bit more in depth on this matter because it seems as if the general opinion is rather split and I need something to help me procrastinate atm
The following pokemon that are noteworthy in ORAS OU can check or counter Mega Metagross: Landorus-T, Slowbro (Mega or regular), Mega Scizor, Hippowdon, Starmie, Skarmory, Quagsire, Suicune, and Alomomola. I'd like to note that all of these pokemon I've listed are above the B- rank in viability rankings, so I am not including things like Bronzong, Doublade, or Gastrodon which are all very uncommon and generally not worth using, but they still can successfully stop Mega Metagross. I'll group these pokemon as followed: [Fat Grounds] Landorus-T + Hippowdon, [Bulky Waters] Slowbro + Suicune + Quagsire + Starmie + Alomomola, and [Fat Steels] Skarmory + Mega Scizor.
The fat grounds, Lando-T and Hippowdon, both can check Mega Metagross a majority of the time. Landorus-T needs to switch in once it's mega evolved, else intimidate will be nullified by Clear Body and Meta will be able to 2hko it (regardless of Scarf or Defensive w/ SR up). Even if it gets the intimidate off, offensive variants are unable to consistently check it and defensive variants are slower and can be 3hko'd (especially w/ some other damage), meaning they can only put a stop to it once. Hippowdon needs to be physically defensive and Mega Metagross to lack Grass Knot, but if this is the case then sure, it can deal with Mega Metagross.
Landorus-T
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 226-267 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (no % to OHKO w/ SR)
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 166-196 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (unlikely 2hko w/o SR)
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 151-178 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO (100% 2hko w/ SR)
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 111-132 (29 - 34.5%) -- 6.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery Hippowdon
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 136-162 (32.3 - 38.5%) -- 2.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 186-219 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 314-370 (74.7 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 212-250 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (decent chance w/o SR)
Moreover, it can be concluded that Landorus-T is a limited check to Mega-Metagross and Hippowdon can be a check to Mega-Metagross depending on the situation and circumstances.
Bulky waters are a more expansive category and you'll generally only see one, at most, on a team, if even that, of all of these pokemon. The following pokemon I categorized as bulky waters that check mega-meta above: Slowbro (regular and mega), Suicune, Quagsire, Starmie, and Alomomola. Slowbro, regular or mega, is one of the best counters to Mega Metagross assuming it lacks Grass Knot, but if it has the uncommon yet surprising GK then it's lights out for Slowbro. The same applies to Suicune, but it takes a decent chunk from Zen Headbutt and with some flinches, sleep turns, and/or residual damage, Cune could be in trouble. Quagsire takes a bit more from Zen than either of the above, but it's in similar standing when it comes to needing GK to reliably break through it unless you want to flinch it or rely on previously weakening it. Starmie needs to be a defensive variant and it can be hurt by a pursuit if it's trying to switch out for whatever reason and the same Grass Knot argument that applied to the above applies to it. It isn't taking attacks as consistently well as the above pokemon due to lack of natural bulk, but it can still do the job if it gets a scald burn or something. Alomomola is a bitch of a pokemon, but that's besides the point - it can check mega meta and it can regenerator out without taking too much from GK, but it's not too common so it's not that noteworthy tbh.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 72-85 (18.2 - 21.5%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 123-145 (30.4 - 35.8%) -- 45.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 151-178 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 452-532 (114.7 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 122-144 (37.7 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Starmie: 180-212 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 122-144 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 182-216 (69.4 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 120 HP / 136 Def Alomomola: 193-228 (38.5 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Conclusion is that there are quite a few checks to Mega-Metagross here and it depends how much you credit the GK variant to gauge the value of most of these checks.
Skarmory and Defensive Mega Scizor round out the pokemon who are problematic for Mega-Meta, but both of these need to fulfill certain conditions to actually check Mega Meta. The former needs counter (and would appreciate Rocky Helmet, too) while the latter needs to be a bulky, roost variant. Theoretically, Mega Meta can keep hammer arming non-rh/counter Skarmoy until it's slower and then hit it super effectively on roost, but Skarm is losing a lot of usage and non-rh/counter variants are rare, so I won't go into unrealistic scenarios.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 90-106 (26.9 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 118-139 (34.4 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Scizor: 90-106 (26.1 - 30.8%) -- 17.7% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Mega Scizor: 96-114 (27.9 - 33.1%) -- 94.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 118-139 (41.9 - 49.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Furthermore, both can potentially stop Mega Meta, but they need to fulfill certain conditions to do so.
Based off of all of the above, Mega-Metagross has a fair amount of counters and I can acknowledge that people can he unsure of it it can be labeled as broken in a conventional sense - lacking counters and being able to threaten too large a portion of the metagame. The catch is the fact that the current metagame is really stale and there pokemon like Mega-Metagross are one of the key reasons for this. So many match-ups are reoccurring and they dictate who wins the game without taking skill and level of play into consideration as much as they should be because a HO team overpowers a balanced team or a stallish team hard-walls an offensive team (these are just very generalized examples). This metagame roughly reminds me of mid-XY when Mawile and Aegislash got the boot - the metagame had a certain type of hard stall (think Venu/Tran/Chansey/Skarm/Quag/Clef) and a couple of key offensive pokemon (think Aegi/Maw/Thundy/ZardX) that ran the metagame and made teambuilding, high level battling, and the tier in general pretty poor quality / match-up oriented. We're falling into the same trap that generation six overused metagames seem to be plagued with and I don't think anyone wants to be playing such a restricted, lackluster metagame (I know I certainly don't want to). To put it bluntly, ORAS OU is crap, as was mid-XY OU.
How does Mega-Metagross play into this? Well, it's the current suspect and it's (arguably) the most broken thing in the meta (not here to discuss other pokemon, just going to focus on Mega-Meta and why it needs the banhammer). If it's broken in a conventional sense or not is in the eye of the beholder, as I discussed above with the list of checks/counters that I organized, but if it's effect on the metagame is toxic is the question, then the answer is yes - and if having it banned would have a positive effect on the tier, then the answer is yes. Does this mean it should be banned? Well, I'd certainly say so. This would be an ideal first step in saving the otherwise poor ORAS OU metagame.
I know this is long and I'm sure that many people will just skim it and move on, agree or disagree, but I'd appreciate it if people think about not only mega-meta as an individual pokemon in the metagame when thinking about this suspect, but look at it in perspective and the state of the current metagame.
This is ridiculous. With the past couple of Suspect tests, all of the pokes, such as Greninja and Aegislash were both understandable, but Mega Meta just seems to me like people are just complaining for the sake of complaining. With myself not able to get up in the ladder due to time constraints and etc, I wont really have a say in the matter but I feel the need to just toss my two cents into the matter.
Mega Metagross is not only not that overpowered, but with alot of team comps in OU, is easily dealt with. Alot of pokemon, such as Lando-T, Gliscor, Mega and Normal Sable Eye, Rotom-W, Gliscor, and even Mega SlowBro are just many examples of pokemon that just absolutely wall this guy, not to mention hitting it with a burn or a thunder wave absolutely makes this thing useless.
With my experience going against and playing with Mega Metagross, it seems to me that alot of the times if I dont set up properly or make the proper predictions, it is definitely a pokemon that has huge potential to absolutely sweep teams given the right setup and opportunity. However does this mean that it ban worthy? Absolutely NOT. Not only do alot of the pokes listed above, with their usual movesets wall and stall the beast, but in most cases, Metagross can't even have that good of coverage based on the fact that, oh he only has 4 moveslots. Sure he can run Grass Knot, Ice Punch, Zen Headbutt, and Bullet Punch hypothetically, to get the most coverage in there. Not only will the grass knot not even scratch a bulky Rotom-W, but Sable Eye, Gliscor and Mega Slowbro absolutely wall his other moves, and not to mention he loses out on other moves like Meteor Mash and Iron Head.
Banning Greninja was simple, the pokemon was almost a gaurnteed killing machine, able to insta kill most fairies and in most cases always prompted a person to switch into a bulky pokemon or risk losing one of their other pokemon to the enormous killing machine that was the Protean Frog. However, not only does Metagross have not nearly as much coverage, he is easily taken out by bulky pokemon.
In short, there are many pokemon in OU and lower tiers that are almost staples in most teams I have come across like Rotom-W, along with megas like Mega Slowbro that can stall and shutdown Mega Metagross.
In short, this suspect test is completely left field and unwarranted, do not ban.
In the days before, I used to believe that OU could handle this monstrous robot, and I was right. There are answers to it, however Megagross has an answer to your answer and would just beat you into the ground all aver again! With it's all-round respectable bulk, a wide range of coverage options, and last but not least virtually Godlike offensive stats, Mega Metagross has all that it needs to pulverise everything and anything that OU has to offer. Tough Claws gives it almost no safe switch ins; some have pulled it off depending on the set but in the end it doesn't even matter make the wrong prediction on what set it's running and you will pay in blood. 4mss is a small thorn in it's side that hasn't stopped it in the least on what it has accomplished. It's base 110 speed also makes it very hard to revenge kill; even if they're faster 80/150/110 defences can easily last a hit or two and crush them back. Pretty much every team right now has to keep this mechanized terror in mind when team building, lest they want to be demolished under it's iron claws. I'm still hesitant on my position, but I won't be surprised if the ban goes through.
For your last paragraph, stop pretending the Agility set doesn't exist. With that set, pretty much nothing outside of Bisharp and Landorus-T revenges it on offense. This makes it such that on offense, much like Albacore stated in his post, you can't consistently beat Mega Metagross unless your team is specifically designed to give it no switch-in opportunities. This is similar to Aegislash in that if you were hard countered, you sucked in the metagame because you gave Aegislash a free opportunity to just fuck everything up; of course, for Megagross it doesn't apply to the whole metagame but rather to just one playstyle, but the point still stands.
If an offensive team lets a set up sweeper boost up its more than likely going to lose anyway. This isnt a trait special to MegaGross in the slightest. Its also not unlike Landorus-T and Bisharp are hard pokemon to fit onto offense, both were used plenty before MegaGross came about and are still great now.
Mega Meta is really really good, and I think that it has some really strong sets. I don't think its broken however. As mentioned earlier it has horrid 4MSS, and although lots of pro ban players are saying 'this means it can pick what it beats' it also means it has to choose what it cant beat as well. Although one could say 'that means my check / counter isn't 100% it has no true counters!', it can be pretty accurately determined from the remainder of the metagross team which of the coverage moves its using / what set it is (ie, if keldeo is present theres a high chance gross will be using pursuit).
Although seeing a megagross less meta would be interesting, as I'm sure there would be a subsequent rise in my personal favorite mega (altaria), and maybe Bird Spam would rise back up.
This is ridiculous. With the past couple of Suspect tests, all of the pokes, such as Greninja and Aegislash were both understandable, but Mega Meta just seems to me like people are just complaining for the sake of complaining. With myself not able to get up in the ladder due to time constraints and etc, I wont really have a say in the matter but I feel the need to just toss my two cents into the matter.
Mega Metagross is not only not that overpowered, but with alot of team comps in OU, is easily dealt with. Alot of pokemon, such as Lando-T, Gliscor, Mega and Normal Sable Eye, Rotom-W, Gliscor, and even Mega SlowBro are just many examples of pokemon that just absolutely wall this guy, not to mention hitting it with a burn or a thunder wave absolutely makes this thing useless.
With my experience going against and playing with Mega Metagross, it seems to me that alot of the times if I dont set up properly or make the proper predictions, it is definitely a pokemon that has huge potential to absolutely sweep teams given the right setup and opportunity. However does this mean that it ban worthy? Absolutely NOT. Not only do alot of the pokes listed above, with their usual movesets wall and stall the beast, but in most cases, Metagross can't even have that good of coverage based on the fact that, oh he only has 4 moveslots. Sure he can run Grass Knot, Ice Punch, Zen Headbutt, and Bullet Punch hypothetically, to get the most coverage in there. Not only will the grass knot not even scratch a bulky Rotom-W, but Sable Eye, Gliscor and Mega Slowbro absolutely wall his other moves, and not to mention he loses out on other moves like Meteor Mash and Iron Head.
Banning Greninja was simple, the pokemon was almost a gaurnteed killing machine, able to insta kill most fairies and in most cases always prompted a person to switch into a bulky pokemon or risk losing one of their other pokemon to the enormous killing machine that was the Protean Frog. However, not only does Metagross have not nearly as much coverage, he is easily taken out by bulky pokemon.
In short, there are many pokemon in OU and lower tiers that are almost staples in most teams I have come across like Rotom-W, along with megas like Mega Slowbro that can stall and shutdown Mega Metagross.
In short, this suspect test is completely left field and unwarranted, do not ban.
None of those Pokemon except Mega Slowbro can beat Mega Metagross. Doesn't matter that it might not pack the move that beats it, the risk is not worth taking. It also adds to its unpredictability, so the four moveslot syndrome argument can be supportive of a ban as well. Landorus and Gliscor lose to Metagross 1v1 because of Ice Punch. Scarf Lando is OHKO'd even if Metagross is at -1, and it also fails to KO Metagross with Earthquake if it has full health. Gliscor takes 96% from Ice Punch at the lowest, so it isn't a good option either. Sableye and Rotom-Wash cannot switch into Metagross due to being slow and being 2HKO'd and will likely die or be left weakened in the process of burning Metagross. Mega Slowbro is only good if Metagross has no Grass Knot, and as stated before, this is often a risk that is not worth taking.
OK, Mega Scizor counters Mega Metagross but what does it prove, exactly? Showing that a Pokemon has counters and checks doesn't make it non-broken. Also, you are losing a lot of offensive presence just to check Mega Metagross (OK, suppose Mega Metagross runs HP Fire (which it doesn't since it needs to fit dual STABs, Hammer Arm, Grass Knot and Ice Punch), it still 2HKOes your spread with Stealth Rock up).
If Mega Metagross doesn't run HP Fire, Mega Scizor can come in on any of its attacks, set up in its face, and sweep while Roosting off the damage. I won't be losing any offensive presense if I know a would-be major threat like Mega Metagross will give me free set up, at which point +6 Attack uninvested will still be good enough to sweep most teams.
0 SpA Mega Metagross Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 228+ SpD Mega Scizor: 136-160 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- 21.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(78.9% chance to 3HKO)
Don't even try to argue the fact that MegaGross is nothing but set-up bait for one of the most common Pokemon in OU, which is one of the criteria for something to be unbanworthy. Saying that a Pokemon has checks and counters doesn't stop them from being non-broken, but a Pokemon is broken if, in a given metagame, it is a dominating force and dictates playstyles to such an extent as to be majorly centralizing. MegaGross has relevent counters that are all in the same tier as it and it has numerous relevent checks that are also in the same tier. That means playstyles barely change from its presence. Standard Mew has a field day with it. That is the point of my argument, and the reason I stand firmly on the belief that Mega Metagross should not be banned.
If Mega Metagross doesn't run HP Fire, Mega Scizor can come in on any of its attacks, set up in its face, and sweep while Roosting off the damage. I won't be losing any offensive presense if I know a would-be major threat like Mega Metagross will give me free set up, at which point +6 Attack uninvested will still be good enough to sweep most teams.
0 SpA Mega Metagross Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 228+ SpD Mega Scizor: 136-160 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- 21.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(78.9% chance to 3HKO)
Don't even try to argue the fact that MegaGross is nothing but set-up bait for one of the most common Pokemon in OU, which is one of the criteria for something to be unbanworthy. Saying that a Pokemon has checks and counters doesn't stop them from being non-broken, but a Pokemon is broken if, in a given metagame, it is a dominating force and dictates playstyles to such an extent as to be majorly centralizing. MegaGross has relevent counters that are all in the same tier as it and it has numerous relevent checks that are also in the same tier. That means playstyles barely change from its presence. Standard Mew has a field day with it. That is the point of my argument, and the reason I stand firmly on the belief that Mega Metagross should not be banned.
What exactly is your point? One thing in the game can stop it. If you happen to be running SD Defensive Mega Scizor which not all are, you can set up on it. One thing countering a Pokemon doesn't make it unbanworthy- even if it is 12th most used in OU. You can actually run Magnezone with MegaGross and then the best counter to MegaGross is gone. The thing is, it has no cost to switching out. This is very important. It doesn't need to set up to sweep. It doesn't hurt to switch into rocks. So, if Scizor comes in, what is stopping you from switching out? After Scizor has been dealt with, then MegaGross absolutely demolishes everything it comes across.
Theres a, slight, but very important difference between 4mss and picking what you beat. Mons with 4mss are unable to beat a wide variety of mons unless they run a paricular coverage move, but in doing so lose to another large set of mons because they couldnt fit a second move in to beat them, an example being Lucario, who needs Espeed, Ice punch for Lando and Gliscor, Bullet punch for fast mons that resist espeed and the list goes on. Picking what you beat means that you already have near flawless coverage in few moves and can pick a particular move based on what the team would prefer to hit. Metagross has two obscenely powerful STABs which let it plough through the majority of the meta with little trouble. Add in Grass Knot to the mix and Slowbro and Hippo can no longer wall. The final move choice is purely based on targets to beat but these moves arent a necessary component of Metagrosses success, it can still beat the majority of the metagame with it's STABs alone.
That said I am leaning towards a ban for M-Metagross. The combination of bulk, typing, lack of switchins and obscenely diverse movepool makes it so hard for all playstyles except some stall teams to beat without saccing something or playing around it with risky predictions. The fact regular counters for it on offense are annihilated by Rock Polish goes to show how great it is. I might make a proper post about how I feel later on.
Right now, Megagross is the only thing keeping Mega Altaria from wreaking absolute havoc on the metagame and, more arguably, mega diancie. You could argue Scizor does the job but that is definitely much, much easier to deal with for teams with mega altaria than megagross is. Similarily, Mega Altaria is one of the few things that makes Mega Sableye scared to switch in (along with diancie, gardevoir, and specs sylveon) so that is also needed in this metagame. I think banning mega metagross will end up making the metagame less healthy in the long run since people are currently doing a very good job adapting around it and its flaws (no set up moves unless you get lucky with meteor mash, bad weaknesses, and four moveslot syndrome)
and yes, a true counter does exist in Mega Scizor, which is a top OU pokemon already and is very easy to keep alive with roost+its bulk and sets up on megagross for free.
Obviously Metagross is extremely strong and definitely a centralizing pokemon and top 3 mega but I think its actually healthy for the meta right now, unlike everything else that has been banned.
What exactly is your point? One thing in the game can stop it. If you happen to be running SD Defensive Mega Scizor which not all are, you can set up on it. One thing countering a Pokemon doesn't make it unbanworthy- even if it is 12th most used in OU. You can actually run Magnezone with MegaGross and then the best counter to MegaGross is gone. The thing is, it has no cost to switching out. This is very important. It doesn't need to set up to sweep. It doesn't hurt to switch into rocks. So, if Scizor comes in, what is stopping you from switching out? After Scizor has been dealt with, then MegaGross absolutely demolishes everything it comes across.
Mega Scizor isn't the only counter, though. Standard Mew is a surefire counter to MegaGross if you're afraid of Magnezone, and didn't I say MegaGross has numerous "checks" in OU tier? Choice Band Talonflame murders Mega Metagross, forcing it to switch out or risk dying. Scarf Landurus can come in on a predicted Non-Ice Punch and force it out or OHKO it. Even if MegaGross has zero counters, it is the numerous relevant and common checks that keep any Pokemon from being overpowered.
I'm definitely on the fence for this suspect - unlike Greninja which was completely borked and overcentralising. On one hand, it has speed, bulk AND power all rolled into one, and there are no switch-ins to it. However, it's quite prediction reliant on hitting it's checks and counters on the switch, and whittling it down to the point that Bisharp's sucker, Lando's eq, Lopunny's HJK will kill it isn't that hard, but in the process Metagross will already have put an extremely big dent in the oppositions team.
I might be leaning more towards a ban, but then Megagross is the only thing keeping stuff like Clefable and Altaria in check.
(Oh yeah also, gross doesn't have 4mss, it's like Greninja in which it only needs Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt, the other two slots can be changed to suit the team's needs.)
EDIT: Banded t-flame is actually pretty bad rn, SD or stallbreaker t-flame is much better for this metagame. And also, Landorus-T cannot switch in because of Clear Body negating Intimidate and Mash dealing over half after rocks to scarf variants iirc, not counting possible crits/boosts.
And btw, just because t-flame murders it doesn't mean its bad. it murders genesect and shaymin-sky too...
