Reun and Latias don't have the defenses of a Dark-weak Sharpedo.
Without King's Shield, all it takes for Aegislash to get itself killed is to make one bad prediction with its coverage moves.
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np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]
- Thread starter McMeghan
- Start date
- Status
Reun and Latias don't have the defenses of a Dark-weak Sharpedo.
Without King's Shield, all it takes for Aegislash to get itself killed is to make one bad prediction with its coverage moves.
If people are going to keep pretending that Aegislash will immediately solve this "match-up" pandemic, then there's nothing wrong with pointing out that Aegislash has a ton of moves and is itself a huge pain to check.
Yeah okay, adding Aegislash to your team will mean you're no longer weak to Gardevoir or whatever... but what about opposing Aegislash? How are you going to build your team to not be weak to any of SubToxic, SD (not stance dance), LO crumbler, HP Ice lures, pursuit Aegis, weakness berry sets, etc? Or what about any of the rock-solid cores that Aegislash can form with excellent pokemon?
you got something wrong, noone is saying that bringing aegish back is going to solve all match up reliant problems but its going to make them better as you said with aegish back to OU i will have to worry about it but i want have to worry about garde,jirachi,herra etc. so essentially we add 1 mon to worry about during team build but we trade it for having to worry for 10 less mons.
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Upon getting reqs, I think it's safe for me to finally formulate an solid opinion. As with my previous posts, I'm sticking with leaving Aegislash in Uber
So, unlike many people who get reqs in a day, it took me quite a few accounts and a variety of different teams before I made the team that got me where I needed to be. There were a good amount of variation between teams, with the only thing really in common was Aegislash and possibly MGyara, but what really allowed me to see the difference in what Aegi can do was using a different set on each team.
SubToxic: This set is actually one of the less effective sets from what I've used, but it's far from bad and can beat most of the checks normal Aegi has. It does kill some momentum, but using that insane bulk and good attacking prowess to slowly whittle down teams.
Standard SD: Standard being that ol' XY SD/KS/Sneak/Sword set, also not all that crazy but still very good and can nab a few kills
-Head Smash set I don't really like. Don't run it unless Aegi is your main win condition and you have no way of getting past Mandi or Skarm w/o it.
-Fast SD is awesome. Surprises a lot of Bisharps and Diancie's pre-MEvo, netting you a good amount of kills
Bulky Mixed: I use KS/SBall/Sneak/Sword with Spooky Plate to guarantee the 2HKO on Hippo on the switch. One of the better sets I used.You maintain the bulk Aegi wants while being able to get flawless coverage on both ends of the defensive spectrum.
WP+Autotomize: It seems gimmicky and it kind of is. Obviously, being at +2/+2/+2 Offensive stats warrants a sweep but I feel like it's a bit underwhelming before the boost.
Fast Mixed: Same set as Bulky Mixed with a Life Orb instead and max Speed. Outspeeding Adamant Bisharp is a godsend and I do believe it was the most effective set that I used.
Of course, there are some more sets, probably even missed a few standard ones, and this isn't a ranking of his sets. It just shows how much Aegi can pull off effectively and it's way too much for OU to handle at the time.
So, unlike many people who get reqs in a day, it took me quite a few accounts and a variety of different teams before I made the team that got me where I needed to be. There were a good amount of variation between teams, with the only thing really in common was Aegislash and possibly MGyara, but what really allowed me to see the difference in what Aegi can do was using a different set on each team.
SubToxic: This set is actually one of the less effective sets from what I've used, but it's far from bad and can beat most of the checks normal Aegi has. It does kill some momentum, but using that insane bulk and good attacking prowess to slowly whittle down teams.
Standard SD: Standard being that ol' XY SD/KS/Sneak/Sword set, also not all that crazy but still very good and can nab a few kills
-Head Smash set I don't really like. Don't run it unless Aegi is your main win condition and you have no way of getting past Mandi or Skarm w/o it.
-Fast SD is awesome. Surprises a lot of Bisharps and Diancie's pre-MEvo, netting you a good amount of kills
Bulky Mixed: I use KS/SBall/Sneak/Sword with Spooky Plate to guarantee the 2HKO on Hippo on the switch. One of the better sets I used.You maintain the bulk Aegi wants while being able to get flawless coverage on both ends of the defensive spectrum.
WP+Autotomize: It seems gimmicky and it kind of is. Obviously, being at +2/+2/+2 Offensive stats warrants a sweep but I feel like it's a bit underwhelming before the boost.
Fast Mixed: Same set as Bulky Mixed with a Life Orb instead and max Speed. Outspeeding Adamant Bisharp is a godsend and I do believe it was the most effective set that I used.
Of course, there are some more sets, probably even missed a few standard ones, and this isn't a ranking of his sets. It just shows how much Aegi can pull off effectively and it's way too much for OU to handle at the time.
I think you overrated some of Aegi's sets. Stance dance Aegislash reminds me a lot of Stored Power Clefable & Sigilyph, in that they take a long time to do any real damage and give your opponent free turns. And it really does not want to rely on a priority move to do damage, since it can't rely on its Shield form to take a hit. Autotomize sets are prone to being revenge killed, because +2 50 Speed is good, but not excessively so, plus it can really only be done once.
By far, Aegislash's best offensive set is the "bulky mixed" one.
While I do agree, Stance Dance is still viable (although probably the worst of its sets), and the priority + KS is essential in order to acquire boosts to break walls and weaken Pokemon midgame. Also a nitpick, but Auto Aegis is +2 60 Speed, which makes a hell of a difference in what it can outspeed.
Autoslash is terrible.. Keep in mind he has to either get a weakness policy boost (leaving him near dead) or have sword's dance to do significant damage with autotomize.. if he's sword's dance, send out your physical wall to hit it in blade form (since it outspeeds and loses shield form...). If It's weakness policy, it's a one time use boost and aegislash is crippled to the point where any little move would KO him (especially since he's in blade from the speed boost) should he not be able to OHKO the target.. Also base 60 speed only hits 480 speed after auto. Any fast scarfer like garchomp or even sucker punch (which is obvious to use when you see autotomize) still completely obliberates aegi. He does surpass threats like manectric and lando, but regardless he is better off not wasting a turn to autotomize, when instead he can just take whatever hit they have, get the WP boost, and kill from there while hitting something hard on switch.
Idk if you read it right but I said that Stance Dance is nothing special but can go through teams not ready for it, and I said Autotomize is a gimmick so on the contrary to what you said I didn't overrate any of the sets you mentioned lol. Also, bulky mixed is very good but Fast mixed served a better purpose for my team and is the set that helped me achieve reqs so I'm entitled to think its a better set.
If utilizing Auto-Aegis, wouldn't it make sense to use it when the obvious scarfer is weakened? Never mind that it outspeeds things like Scarf Landorus-T. Considering the fact that using it as a cleaner is usable with either LO or WP, and still carries the coverage to break through a weakened team, I'm not understanding. It's not supposed to completely OHKO everything on the team (though it already comes pretty damn close), it's supposed to sweep a team that's on its last legs. WP Aegis is significantly trickier to use, no doubt, but LO can work just fine if you're not confident in the WP boost. Also, it's clearly not the best set, but saying it's terrible is incorrect.
Considering there's only a couple of days left for suspect I might as well provide some questions to everyone here, ones that haven't been answered yet. And no when you read these questions I can tell you right now most of you haven't answered these in the past 41 pages that I've had to read so please don't imply that you have. Explain these in depth or however, hell I mean this is gonna be a lovely one for all the theorymon guys here. These may not be concrete or definitive with some discrepancies in EVs perhaps moves as well but more or less this will give you an idea what I'm implying here. I'll keep the questions pretty basic with some uniformity in the first section of two main ones. Counter measures simply means in an effective and reliable manner how you would go about beating the set with consideration that both players have access to Aegislash and the cores that would surround it. Keep in mind each variant in a similar fashion to other threats in the meta like Manaphy can have different moves overlap with another variant or something I haven't mentioned. So Destiny Bond on Automize variants, a coverage move in general that isn't the standard since standards only hold so much weight, a super-effective reducing berry, etc.
These questions below in their entirety correlate to whether Aegislash is broken at a high level of competition.
Here are the questions that apply to each set individually. As you go through each set mentally answer them or just post your thought process here to give you and others perspective.
(A) What are the counter measures that Stall has for this set when taking it into account in both team-builder and in battle?
(B) What are the counter measures that Balance / Bulky Offense has for this set when taking it into account in both team-builder and in battle?
(C) What are the counter measures that Hyper Offense has for this set when taking it into account in both team-builder and in battle?
There's obviously more variations but I think that's enough to wrap your heads around for now.
Ok so you've answered those, great, now here's the kicker that needs to be answered as well. With these questions, by battle I mean under the assumption that all these sets are a possibility when Aegislash is seen at team preview, a basic fundamental for all top tier threats in our meta-game. So here you go.
(A) What are the counter measures that Stall has for all of these sets combined when taking it into account in both team-builder and in battle?
(B) What are the counter measures that Balance / Bulky Offense has for all of these sets combined when taking it into account in both team-builder and in battle?
(C) What are the counter measures that Hyper Offense has for all of these sets combined when taking it into account in both team-builder and in battle?
These questions below correlate to whether the presence of Aegislash in the meta-game improves match-up at a high level of competition.
So instead of naming out individual components one step at a time let's consider everything that gets better in the Aegislash meta. Then let's consider everything that gets worse. Compare and contrast the quantitive and qualitative amounts to each, quantitive being the number of threats by themselves, where the qualitative can be considered variations in each threats sets that are now more effective, less effective, or obsolete.
With this being finally said elaborate as to how matchup is decreased, stays the same, or increases based on the culmination of everything answered here, with matchup being the driving force in anti-ban camps argument right now and a pivotal point in the creation of this suspect test. Matchup doesn't equate to only the quantity of threats, it also correlates to the quality of threats as well. The quantity can be lowered based on the return or addition of said threat but if the quality increases in the smaller pool of threats it can be considered that matchup in a negative connotation hasn't been alleviated from the meta-game, simply a trade off. These are points to consider going forward with the remainder of the suspect thread and test seeing as how most of the discussion so far has been a lot of straw man and trivial aspects that haven't been elaborated on in a much more thorough manner.
Done.
These questions below in their entirety correlate to whether Aegislash is broken at a high level of competition.
Here are the questions that apply to each set individually. As you go through each set mentally answer them or just post your thought process here to give you and others perspective.
(A) What are the counter measures that Stall has for this set when taking it into account in both team-builder and in battle?
(B) What are the counter measures that Balance / Bulky Offense has for this set when taking it into account in both team-builder and in battle?
(C) What are the counter measures that Hyper Offense has for this set when taking it into account in both team-builder and in battle?
Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield
Aegislash @ Air Balloon
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield
Aegislash @ Air Balloon
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sacred Sword
- Magnet Rise
- King's Shield
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sacred Sword
- Magnet Rise
- King's Shield
Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Sword
- Pursuit
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Sword
- Pursuit
Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 12 Def / 244 SpA
Modest Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Substitute
- Toxic
- King's Shield
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 12 Def / 244 SpA
Modest Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Substitute
- Toxic
- King's Shield
Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield
Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Metal Sound
- King's Shield
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Metal Sound
- King's Shield
Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Claw
- Automize
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Sacred Sword
- Shadow Claw
- Automize
Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Automize
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Automize
Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Sword
- Swords Dance
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Sword
- Swords Dance
Aegislash @ Life Orb
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak
- Head Smash
- Swords Dance
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak
- Head Smash
- Swords Dance
Ok so you've answered those, great, now here's the kicker that needs to be answered as well. With these questions, by battle I mean under the assumption that all these sets are a possibility when Aegislash is seen at team preview, a basic fundamental for all top tier threats in our meta-game. So here you go.
(A) What are the counter measures that Stall has for all of these sets combined when taking it into account in both team-builder and in battle?
(B) What are the counter measures that Balance / Bulky Offense has for all of these sets combined when taking it into account in both team-builder and in battle?
(C) What are the counter measures that Hyper Offense has for all of these sets combined when taking it into account in both team-builder and in battle?
These questions below correlate to whether the presence of Aegislash in the meta-game improves match-up at a high level of competition.
So instead of naming out individual components one step at a time let's consider everything that gets better in the Aegislash meta. Then let's consider everything that gets worse. Compare and contrast the quantitive and qualitative amounts to each, quantitive being the number of threats by themselves, where the qualitative can be considered variations in each threats sets that are now more effective, less effective, or obsolete.
With this being finally said elaborate as to how matchup is decreased, stays the same, or increases based on the culmination of everything answered here, with matchup being the driving force in anti-ban camps argument right now and a pivotal point in the creation of this suspect test. Matchup doesn't equate to only the quantity of threats, it also correlates to the quality of threats as well. The quantity can be lowered based on the return or addition of said threat but if the quality increases in the smaller pool of threats it can be considered that matchup in a negative connotation hasn't been alleviated from the meta-game, simply a trade off. These are points to consider going forward with the remainder of the suspect thread and test seeing as how most of the discussion so far has been a lot of straw man and trivial aspects that haven't been elaborated on in a much more thorough manner.
Done.
After playing with Aegislash and against Aegislash on the ladder, I have to say he is rather disappointing.
It seems that no matter which set I run I feel like another mon could do better. You can't treat him like a wall because of his low hp and common weaknesses, and you can't really treat him as an offensive presence either since his speed stinks and his defenses while in that stance are horrendous. In most of my matches, Aegislash seemed like a liability since I couldn't switch him in as often as I wanted due to his poor recovery though leftovers and the amount of high powered pokes that roam the tier. If I wanted more power, I had to risk his longevity. If I wanted more tanking capabilities, I had to sacrifice his ability to wallbreak. These changes are very noticeable and become annoying when you realize that another poke could be doing these jobs better. I also have had pretty decent success with checking him. If you run a bisharp, there's not much to worry about, but many other common threats can still screw him over with either a good coverage move or repeated attacks. His reliance on King Shield also makes him easy to setup on if facing a lower ladder opponent and risky to use if playing against someone at the same hypothetical skill level you are.
However, that is not to say that I want him in OU. Funny enough, with Aegislash's presence in the ladder, I have seen some weird teams, probably designed to shit on Aegislash specifically. Threats from UU (i.e. Infernape, Hippowdon, Arcanine, Chesnaught, Swampert, Umbreon) have been somewhat consistent. Half these pokes are annoying to face and because Aegislash's presence deters their checks and counters, they become actual threats to your team if you do not plan for them. That and the fact that the top OU pokemon are still rampant leads me to believe that Aegislash should stay in Ubers as a poor choice for teams there.
The only good thing he has done has been crapping on Jirachi, Starmie, and Gothitelle because screw those pokes.
It seems that no matter which set I run I feel like another mon could do better. You can't treat him like a wall because of his low hp and common weaknesses, and you can't really treat him as an offensive presence either since his speed stinks and his defenses while in that stance are horrendous. In most of my matches, Aegislash seemed like a liability since I couldn't switch him in as often as I wanted due to his poor recovery though leftovers and the amount of high powered pokes that roam the tier. If I wanted more power, I had to risk his longevity. If I wanted more tanking capabilities, I had to sacrifice his ability to wallbreak. These changes are very noticeable and become annoying when you realize that another poke could be doing these jobs better. I also have had pretty decent success with checking him. If you run a bisharp, there's not much to worry about, but many other common threats can still screw him over with either a good coverage move or repeated attacks. His reliance on King Shield also makes him easy to setup on if facing a lower ladder opponent and risky to use if playing against someone at the same hypothetical skill level you are.
However, that is not to say that I want him in OU. Funny enough, with Aegislash's presence in the ladder, I have seen some weird teams, probably designed to shit on Aegislash specifically. Threats from UU (i.e. Infernape, Hippowdon, Arcanine, Chesnaught, Swampert, Umbreon) have been somewhat consistent. Half these pokes are annoying to face and because Aegislash's presence deters their checks and counters, they become actual threats to your team if you do not plan for them. That and the fact that the top OU pokemon are still rampant leads me to believe that Aegislash should stay in Ubers as a poor choice for teams there.
The only good thing he has done has been crapping on Jirachi, Starmie, and Gothitelle because screw those pokes.
Or you could just not play it like KS Aegi...
Without King's Shield you play it differently. The fact that you are using Pursuit as a reason for it to be not banworthy is also balony as Pursuit is not on every team!!! Pursuit is only on ~10% of teams from what I have found even with Aegislash there, so IDK why you are implying that it is all of a sudden some super duper common move. In addition, they don't have the defenses of Sharpedo... but they still take over 50% (former)/get OHKO'd (latter) by common Pursuit users anyway (with the former not needing much prior damage to get OHKO by Bisharp's Knock Off mindgames - not advocating a prediction argument, but it is hard to avoid with Bisharp v.s. Reuniclus considering that it will often use Knock Off v.s. Reuniclus anyway as it is faster) making your point somewhat invalid:
252+ Atk Bisharp Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 306-362 (95.9 - 113.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 294-348 (92.1 - 109%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Bisharp Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Reuniclus: 254-302 (59.9 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Reuniclus: 308-366 (72.6 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Reuniclus: 246-290 (58 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Stance Dance is bad as SD Slash isn't acting as a mid game wallbreaker: SD Slash is acting as a late game cleaner v.s. slower/frailer teams, making King's Shield absolutely detrimental to the purpose of the set - as well as the ability to switch between formes being completely pointless considering that it isn't running bulk investment; this isn't 244 HP/252 Atk Brave/Adamant Aegislash - it is 252 Atk / 252 Spe Adamant/Jolly Aegislash. You absolutely need three attacks for the set to not be suboptimal, and this will tend to consist of Shadow Sneak and two of Iron Head, Sacred Sword and Shadow Claw - which already fulfills its "need for priority" and allows it to take down faster/frailer foes more reliably. Finally, Autotomise is complete ass for the reasons that Royal Dispenser stated.
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First Bold: Aegislash isn't a wall...
Second bold: Assuming his standard wallbreaker set, he is insanely difficult to switch in on/not much wants to take a hit from him, so idk what you mean when you say his offensive presence is bad.
Third bold: .-.
Fourth bold: >implying Aegislash is a pivot
Fifth bold: If you are investing a large amount more than 244 HP into bulk at the cost of power then it is clearly worth the power drop. If you are taking so much away from 244 bulk for extra power, it is clearly not worth the bulk drop (unless it is going to speed for SwordSlash or SpeedySlash (not Autotomise), in which case you have made a great way of handling threats that you wouldn't with a bulky variant). If that is hard to get your head around, then you need to learn a little about risk v.s. reward with stat spreads.
Sixth bold: Another poke may be able do do these jobs better, but Aegislash is very damn good at the jobs it does (the best in some of them), and the fact that it can fulfill so many roles makes it unpredictable, effectively negating and surpassing the drawbacks to using it over the "better" options for the role.
Seventh bold: This "good coverage move" usually needs to remove one of the pokemon's typically better options to be fitted in. See: EQ>Swords Dance Mega Heracross, EQ>Flare Blitz/Fire Punch M-Zard X etc.
Eighth bold: Whenever someone says that Aegislash has a "reilance on King's Shield" it just makes me sigh...
Still, its great to see that you are pro ban (although idk how checking Gothitelle is a major draw as Gothitelle is ass, while Jirachi and Starmie are far from unhealthy).
This seems like a problem with you rather than a problem with aegislash.
I'll do this fast but they're very good questions and people should take legitimate time to answer them.
A1-Most all of the sets are stopped by Mandibuzz on stall, while Hippo stops everything Mandi loses to like the Head Smash set. Neither of these Pokemon beat Metal Sound on the switch, and if you don't know which set is being used it can be hard to stop it.
A2-For stall to beat Aegi 100% of the time you would need a combination of Mandibuzz/Mixed Hippo/Special Wall to beat all of the sets. The problem with this is that you're eating away two Pokemon slots each match to beat a variant of Aegislash you may not even play.
Can't answer Balance/BO bc I rarely play with teams like that and I haven't seen that many on reqs ladder.
C1- Basically anything fast af that can OHKO Aegi. Mega Manectric, Mega Lopunny, Landorus-I, Scarf Rotom-H, Gengar, other Aegi etc. Mega Manectric is surprisingly effective at this, as Overheat is a guaranteed OHKO on frailer sets and has a chance to on bulkier sets, with Intimidate weakening what Aegi can do. The only real problem with MMane is that... Well... You're using MMane. Takes up the slot for arguably better megas in the tier. Lop has to predict around the KS vs Encore and Attack vs HJK, as if Lop loses, it's either dead or at -2 and 50% of health gone. Lando-I is safe, unboosted SSneak does about 27-32% and you're killing with EP. I won't list the other examples, but basically if you're fast and can live a SSneak/Aegi doesn't have it, you're fine.
C2-Aegi has 5 teammates for every threat I listed above. Anything that one Pokemon can kill Aegi with, another can take advantage of. This creates even more mind games with tactics such as double switching and predicting switches and using coverage.
Aegislash, if banning King's Shield to have it return to OU, then it can still learn protect which is a very viable move. Only problem is, it does not lower contact attack's attack stat and it does not change Aegislash to Shield Form, so therefore the only chance it has to be in that form is at the beginning of the battle before the use of Sacred Sword, Shadow Ball, or whatever attacking move the set has. Putting up a substitute also helps, and if it doesn't break turn 1, he can use Magnet Rise or Swords Dance behind it to help with setup. So this is the bad set I came up with.
Aegislash (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 24 HP / 252 Atk / 100 Def / 100 SpD / 32 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Substitute
- Sacred Sword/Iron Head
- Magnet Rise/Swords Dance
Jolly Nature and 32 Speed doesn't help much but it steel can outspeed some OU threats, but not many. Substitute turn 1 and if it doesn't break, go for a protect to get some more health back, and then you get a free Magnet Rise/Swords Dance so you don't get hit by Earthquake/Earth Power or to help with Sacred Sword/Iron Head damage. But be careful; Once you use Sacred Sword/Iron Head, you stay in Blade Form for the rest of the time he's in play, which with Substitute, Magnet Rise/a Swords Dance up, is normally until it faints.
Aegislash (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 24 HP / 252 Atk / 100 Def / 100 SpD / 32 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Substitute
- Sacred Sword/Iron Head
- Magnet Rise/Swords Dance
Jolly Nature and 32 Speed doesn't help much but it steel can outspeed some OU threats, but not many. Substitute turn 1 and if it doesn't break, go for a protect to get some more health back, and then you get a free Magnet Rise/Swords Dance so you don't get hit by Earthquake/Earth Power or to help with Sacred Sword/Iron Head damage. But be careful; Once you use Sacred Sword/Iron Head, you stay in Blade Form for the rest of the time he's in play, which with Substitute, Magnet Rise/a Swords Dance up, is normally until it faints.
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1. This spread confuses me, what is it supposed to accomplish? Especially the defense investment.
2. I'd drop protect for magnet rise tbh, this way you can abuse the fact that aegi is immune to most of his common counters. In fact, an auto + magnet rise set might actually be pretty decent.
3. Why are you running jolly with only 32 speed EVs?!?!?
4. STAB move?
It's early in the morning, I am not prepared for this tbh....
So after about 60 games in that cancerous meta I just wanna leave my thoughts here.
First of all i have to say that i disagree with most arguments of the pro ban side. I already made a post on why that 50-50 argument is bs in my eyes and wont repeat that here. I also dont think that Aegi is broken in the sense that OU cant handle him. It can and its not even all that difficult. Yeah people always theorymon on how Aegi can beat/annoy his counters but thats alot easier said than done. Yeah you can nuke that Mandibuzz with Head Smash but what happens then? Mandi will switch out and your Aegi is half dead. And even if you manage to kill him Aegi is still useless for the rest of the match so Mandi isnt needed to counter it anymore. The only thing Aegi did was remove Mandi for something else. Thats called a lure and given how easy it is to get around Mandi (pretty much everything he is supposed to check/counter 2hkoes after SR) its not even a good one.
Sub toxic is another thing and certainly annoying but its still shut down by taunt mandi and dealing with Hippo isnt that easy either because you have to stall with sub + KS which can be exploited fairly easily. Sub Toxic sets are also complete Bisharp bait. Anyway, even if it was true that Aegi could beat all of his counters with ease this doesnt change the fact that its checked by like half the meta. Any decent special attacker with a neutral move can beat it/give it trouble, any physical attacker with EQ beats it (aka most physical attackers) and Bisharp beats it anyway. And Sub Toxic/Lure Sets aside its hardcountered by a number of walls. So dealing with Aegi isnt realy that difficult in practise.
The biggest problem I see with him is that he does more harm to the meta than he cures. In fact, i think he isnt a cure at all. If your are looking for a solid counter to Diancie, Guardevoir, Altaria, Metagross and all the other things Aegi can check you can just go for Jirachi or AV Meta, they do the very same thing defensively. It would be nice to have another check for those things but its not like OU doesnt have any checks to them right now. On the offensive side however Aegi is just another threat that the tier has to handle, and while the tier will certainly be able to adapt, i wonder why even bother if it serves no purpose? We bring another monster down to OU to have another (and certainly better) check to a number of mons that can be handled just fine without him and as a sideeffect we pretty much kill the psychic type. Yeah there were still psychics around on the ladder, I saw a few starmies and even celebis but their decrease in numbers was massive. Same for the Latis. And ofc Metagross/Jirachi were no where to be seen. Bringing Aegi back hurts a number of otherwise nice mons that are good and healthy for the meta (most of them arent anywhere close to beeing broken but help alot in dealing with certain threats and improving diversity as a whole).
Then there is the issue that Aegi forces a lot of mons to run specific coverage just to beat him, and no thats not due to KS, its because of his typing. Fighting coverage is the go to choice on most mons to deal with steel types but here comes Aegi and laughs about it. Forcing Mons like Heracross to run EQ which is otherwise completely retarded is another reason why i think that Aegi is centralizing, far more centralizing than its good and healthy for the tier.
Another, though imo minor point is, that Aegi makes one of the most dangerous mons in tier even harder to deal with. I am not quite sure if Lando-I is broken in a non Aegi meta, but he certainly is in a Aegi meta.
So all in all, even though i realy like Aegi and enjoyed to use him again, I dont want him back in the tier. He causes far more problems than he solves and makes already borderline broken things even better. Because of that I say keep him in übers.
First of all i have to say that i disagree with most arguments of the pro ban side. I already made a post on why that 50-50 argument is bs in my eyes and wont repeat that here. I also dont think that Aegi is broken in the sense that OU cant handle him. It can and its not even all that difficult. Yeah people always theorymon on how Aegi can beat/annoy his counters but thats alot easier said than done. Yeah you can nuke that Mandibuzz with Head Smash but what happens then? Mandi will switch out and your Aegi is half dead. And even if you manage to kill him Aegi is still useless for the rest of the match so Mandi isnt needed to counter it anymore. The only thing Aegi did was remove Mandi for something else. Thats called a lure and given how easy it is to get around Mandi (pretty much everything he is supposed to check/counter 2hkoes after SR) its not even a good one.
Sub toxic is another thing and certainly annoying but its still shut down by taunt mandi and dealing with Hippo isnt that easy either because you have to stall with sub + KS which can be exploited fairly easily. Sub Toxic sets are also complete Bisharp bait. Anyway, even if it was true that Aegi could beat all of his counters with ease this doesnt change the fact that its checked by like half the meta. Any decent special attacker with a neutral move can beat it/give it trouble, any physical attacker with EQ beats it (aka most physical attackers) and Bisharp beats it anyway. And Sub Toxic/Lure Sets aside its hardcountered by a number of walls. So dealing with Aegi isnt realy that difficult in practise.
The biggest problem I see with him is that he does more harm to the meta than he cures. In fact, i think he isnt a cure at all. If your are looking for a solid counter to Diancie, Guardevoir, Altaria, Metagross and all the other things Aegi can check you can just go for Jirachi or AV Meta, they do the very same thing defensively. It would be nice to have another check for those things but its not like OU doesnt have any checks to them right now. On the offensive side however Aegi is just another threat that the tier has to handle, and while the tier will certainly be able to adapt, i wonder why even bother if it serves no purpose? We bring another monster down to OU to have another (and certainly better) check to a number of mons that can be handled just fine without him and as a sideeffect we pretty much kill the psychic type. Yeah there were still psychics around on the ladder, I saw a few starmies and even celebis but their decrease in numbers was massive. Same for the Latis. And ofc Metagross/Jirachi were no where to be seen. Bringing Aegi back hurts a number of otherwise nice mons that are good and healthy for the meta (most of them arent anywhere close to beeing broken but help alot in dealing with certain threats and improving diversity as a whole).
Then there is the issue that Aegi forces a lot of mons to run specific coverage just to beat him, and no thats not due to KS, its because of his typing. Fighting coverage is the go to choice on most mons to deal with steel types but here comes Aegi and laughs about it. Forcing Mons like Heracross to run EQ which is otherwise completely retarded is another reason why i think that Aegi is centralizing, far more centralizing than its good and healthy for the tier.
Another, though imo minor point is, that Aegi makes one of the most dangerous mons in tier even harder to deal with. I am not quite sure if Lando-I is broken in a non Aegi meta, but he certainly is in a Aegi meta.
So all in all, even though i realy like Aegi and enjoyed to use him again, I dont want him back in the tier. He causes far more problems than he solves and makes already borderline broken things even better. Because of that I say keep him in übers.
I haven't played in a while, but I just wanna say that Stall can use Chesnaught to reliably handle all Aegislash except for SubToxic, which is shut down by clerics. Flash Cannon can hurt, but that's about it. So basically all you need to cover is the SpA set, SubToxic, and Chesnaught. That's easily compressible for Stall. I will say that the prominence of Landorus really really hurts stall, so an Aegi meta with Landorus in it is not very kind to stall because that's a lot of teambuilding pressure on stall.
I think this does show exactly the problem Aegislash causes by centralization: he pretty much forces a member onto Stall in the form of Chesnaught, even if the other two slots are broad roles that other things can fill.
However, that required teamslot is weak to Landorus, something that was already a problem for Stall to deal with and it now needs to prepare even more for in the teamslots not dedicated to Aegislash.
Aegislash centralizes the game almost too well, because there's little room for optimized variation within the list of mons that are still viable factoring him and the threats he makes better. Some people argue that the diverse meta makes games to reliant on team match up (frankly, I think it just means there's a greater emphasis on teambuilding skill in addition to in battle skill), but if Aegislash centralizes the game to the point that options for archetypes like Stall and Hyper Offense (Mega Lopunny is amazing in an Aegi meta) are that linear, I'm not sure how long it'd take for that to get stale.
It's like my outlook on chess. Some people value the pure skill basis of the game, but for me, a game stops being particularly engaging if I've reached a point where a failure state is completely avoidable as I play. I personally get some enjoyment out of difficulty from a somewhat tricky opposing team or working around something like being Lured or mispredicting.
Aegislash doesn't FORCE Stall to use Chesnaught. He justifies the usage even more. SubSeed Ches has always been good on Stall, and it just so happens that he fits in nicely to handle Aegislash. You mentioned those slots being Lando weak. That goes for basically EVERYTHING on Stall aside from DEDICATED Lando counters like Cresselia, SpDef Gyarados, or Gliscor (bopped by the increasingly popular HP Ice). I'm not really sure what else there is to say about Aegi in the context of your post. For the immediate time after an Aegi unban, Stall is going to be difficult to play.
ayte, s'pose there would be some kind of integral obligation for me to post here now, although given how frequently i voice my grievances about this tier to up-and-coming outl tesung, it's more of a formality than anything else xd
i don't look to address the statements made in regards to the 50-50's it induces a la king's shield, as i feel they must have been overstated beyond belief by this point, and frankly, there are other pressing issues to address when observing the impact this pokemon has on this tier. my most pressing concern with this pokemon is the amount of utility and gross value it compresses into a singular teamslot at a very low opportunity cost; this is, as i'm sure anybody who's played this or any aegislash meta can concede, a pokemon with substantial defensive that also retains significant offensive presence, to the extent that i might argue it as being unhealthy for the metagame. while by no means exceedingly versatile, its sets are malleable to the extent that no pokemon can claim to proficiently counter it, sans select spdef grounds (which are terrible momentum drains, though i won't try to dispute that point heavily, given this i'd have thought this suspect was adopted as a means to stint power creep, meaning that this type of shift would come to favour the intentions of this suspect). this is something i would consider to be more acceptable had aegislash been a pokemon of notably lesser defensive capacities, but (at least initially) it is terribly resilient, which makes 1-for-1 trades of offensive match-ups stilted in a rather unbecoming fashion, grants more leniency in breaking down balance builds, etc.
so, uh, yeah, my primary concern to be had of this pokemon largely boils down to it being a bit too versatile and threatening offensively for its current, extremely low opportunity cost (non-mega, sr resistant, etc.) and initial bulk that can both allow it to capitalize on that offensive prowess better by establishing free turns and allowing it to fill defensive functions if need be. the whole '50-50' point is just icing on the cake for me, as it were
i don't look to address the statements made in regards to the 50-50's it induces a la king's shield, as i feel they must have been overstated beyond belief by this point, and frankly, there are other pressing issues to address when observing the impact this pokemon has on this tier. my most pressing concern with this pokemon is the amount of utility and gross value it compresses into a singular teamslot at a very low opportunity cost; this is, as i'm sure anybody who's played this or any aegislash meta can concede, a pokemon with substantial defensive that also retains significant offensive presence, to the extent that i might argue it as being unhealthy for the metagame. while by no means exceedingly versatile, its sets are malleable to the extent that no pokemon can claim to proficiently counter it, sans select spdef grounds (which are terrible momentum drains, though i won't try to dispute that point heavily, given this i'd have thought this suspect was adopted as a means to stint power creep, meaning that this type of shift would come to favour the intentions of this suspect). this is something i would consider to be more acceptable had aegislash been a pokemon of notably lesser defensive capacities, but (at least initially) it is terribly resilient, which makes 1-for-1 trades of offensive match-ups stilted in a rather unbecoming fashion, grants more leniency in breaking down balance builds, etc.
so, uh, yeah, my primary concern to be had of this pokemon largely boils down to it being a bit too versatile and threatening offensively for its current, extremely low opportunity cost (non-mega, sr resistant, etc.) and initial bulk that can both allow it to capitalize on that offensive prowess better by establishing free turns and allowing it to fill defensive functions if need be. the whole '50-50' point is just icing on the cake for me, as it were
I mean more that whether or not Chesnaught is good on stall (which I certainly believe he is), it's more that Stall almost HAS to run him for the role compression in checking that many Aegis sets. He goes from being a solid Top 3 for a slot to being unequivocally Top against some competition.
I also just think there's a difference between having some trouble with/not being strong against a Pokemon and being outright weak to a Pokemon. That said, Lando-I is almost designed to eat Stall.
I think we actually kind of agree on the same point though: Stall is difficult to play despite Aegislash's purpose being a blanket check to a wide array of threats because he himself is a prominent threat to account for. I feel like that proves he's not necessarily accomplishing the job he needs to because his presence is making Stall (even) more difficult to play well. Even in this extremely varied and threat-abundant metagame, I've never gotten the impression Stall was any harder to use effectively than Hyper Offense (in the sense that a stall team was not any harder for a veteran to build and win with compared to prior gens).
I won't nitpick the first part. It's really a manner of how you view the suspect test.
While yes, Stall becomes more difficult to play, that's only for the immediate future. I know it's pretty taboo to discuss future suspect tests, so I won't harp on this for too long. My infinite Theorymon wisdom (sarcasm) leads me to believe that in the long run, an Aegi ban is very beneficial to Stall because it makes for a much easier to prepare for metagame. There's a relatively obvious suspect test if Aegi gets unbanned and that one makes Stall MUCH better. Don't forget that Aegislash also practically invalidates most of the Wallbreaking Megas.
I think stall is always fairly difficult to pull off effectively in suspect ladders where people tend to spam ho to get quick wins. Aegislash does enable stall quite alot in my opinion though, i'd argue it's best role is to be a fallback for offensive teams without losing too much offensive pressure, but you can easily splash aegis onto stall and instantly check many things, most notably a wide variety of megas. Stall being barely used at all in the suspect test is due to it's ladder environement, despite aegis encouraging stall builds quite alot. On the other hand the sword has huge wallbreaking potential and can lure in walls and beat them with surprise sets. I guess you could argue that Aegis makes stall both worse and better, worse because it's a good wallbreaker in general and because it's unpredictable as hell, better because it just has insane defensive capabilities when used on stall and can easily be a glue to many builds. I'd say the latter plays a bigger role and stall gets ultimately better, but then again, pretty much every team gets better when you can slap an Aegislash on it.
After playing the suspect ladder and going through and getting reqs I finally have a feel for Aegislash and can talk about it some. Last time it was suspected I was originally on the fence but ultimately decided to support its a. Now after using it in ORAS my stance has changed. I feel Aegislash, while very versatile, is ultimately not too strong for OU. Banning is something I think should only be done in cases where the suspect is either undeniably centralizing, powerful, or uncompetitive relative to the tier the suspect is in. Aegislash, while it contains aspects of all three elements is not so much any of them that it warrants total removal from the game.
In terms of centralization Aegislash is definitely so but not to the extent that many claim. It makes a few pokemon easier to deal with and it has a massive amount of usable sets making hard countering it very hard. However it doesn't make many thing straight unviable or unusable, they just need to take it in account like any other threat in the meta. Those pokemon just need to use certain sets that inconvenience Aegis more like Mega-Gardevoir using a WoW set to hit Aegis on the switch and cripple it. In addition just because some pokemon gain a check doesn't entirely remove them from the game. Pokemon that are checked pretty well by Aegislash like Starmie are still very usable and quite common on the ladder. As for it having many sets and thus few counters that is less relevant in this meta as many pokemon lack hard counters. What does matter is how hard is it to check and Aegis usually isn't too hard to. Most offensive and balance teams have at least one pokemon that can switch in on at least a few of aegis' moves and kill it or force a switch out and one other that can revenge kill. Aegislash, while it has a degree of centralization, isn't so much so that it needs to be removed because of it.
Similar to the centralization is the power Aegislash has. While it is decently powerful on its own it is not that strong because it's moves aren't too strong. While this is a played out argument it does have a degree of truth to it. Aegislash, at it's strongest has shadow ball and flash cannon/iron head as it's best attacks, all of which hit weaker then a Garchomp earthquake who isn't exactly a ban worthy offensive threat right now. Even though Aegislash can hit this hard off both attack stats it also cannot set up very well outside of the flawed swords dance. One bigger issue about Aegislash's power is that in order to get the most out of it its great defensive utility must get shot pretty hard because a life orb and coverage moves are optimal in that case. Conversely I found that in Aegislash's main mixed pivot set is actually quite lacking in power and can only really check thing though outlasting them with king's shield. In general Aegislash though strong lacks the pure offensive potential to be a banworthy threat.
Finally there is the issue of Aegislash being uncompetitive. This would mainly be though the use of 50/50s and King's Shield. 50/50, while being luck based tread a fine line in terms of them. We want to minimize luck and maximize skill in an ideal game but there are some areas that are too broad to touch and 50/50s are a gray area. In order for 50/50s to truly be ban worthy they must essentially be stacked in favor the user, which makes them not 50/50s. That is because there is a usual risk/reward sense of decision making behind most 50/50s and in order for them to be truly uncompetitive they must have a great high reward/low risk ratio toward the user. Aegislash's are not this because the entirety of them exclusive to him involve King's Shield which is a passive move. Therefore there will always be one option of the 50/50 that will not be to any benefit to the user because of it being a loss of tempo. It's a risky move in that you use it when you decide the risk of forfeiting tempo is worth the reward of potentially disabling a physical offensive threat and regaining your defenses. There is a degree of skill and player decision behind this process, so Aegislash cannot be overly uncompetitive.
So because Aegislash is not too centralizing, powerful, or uncompetitive I can conclude it is not ban worthy. As such I will be voting no ban on this suspect.
Yes, I did have to start this essay with that pun. When else will I get a chance to use it again?
In terms of centralization Aegislash is definitely so but not to the extent that many claim. It makes a few pokemon easier to deal with and it has a massive amount of usable sets making hard countering it very hard. However it doesn't make many thing straight unviable or unusable, they just need to take it in account like any other threat in the meta. Those pokemon just need to use certain sets that inconvenience Aegis more like Mega-Gardevoir using a WoW set to hit Aegis on the switch and cripple it. In addition just because some pokemon gain a check doesn't entirely remove them from the game. Pokemon that are checked pretty well by Aegislash like Starmie are still very usable and quite common on the ladder. As for it having many sets and thus few counters that is less relevant in this meta as many pokemon lack hard counters. What does matter is how hard is it to check and Aegis usually isn't too hard to. Most offensive and balance teams have at least one pokemon that can switch in on at least a few of aegis' moves and kill it or force a switch out and one other that can revenge kill. Aegislash, while it has a degree of centralization, isn't so much so that it needs to be removed because of it.
Similar to the centralization is the power Aegislash has. While it is decently powerful on its own it is not that strong because it's moves aren't too strong. While this is a played out argument it does have a degree of truth to it. Aegislash, at it's strongest has shadow ball and flash cannon/iron head as it's best attacks, all of which hit weaker then a Garchomp earthquake who isn't exactly a ban worthy offensive threat right now. Even though Aegislash can hit this hard off both attack stats it also cannot set up very well outside of the flawed swords dance. One bigger issue about Aegislash's power is that in order to get the most out of it its great defensive utility must get shot pretty hard because a life orb and coverage moves are optimal in that case. Conversely I found that in Aegislash's main mixed pivot set is actually quite lacking in power and can only really check thing though outlasting them with king's shield. In general Aegislash though strong lacks the pure offensive potential to be a banworthy threat.
Finally there is the issue of Aegislash being uncompetitive. This would mainly be though the use of 50/50s and King's Shield. 50/50, while being luck based tread a fine line in terms of them. We want to minimize luck and maximize skill in an ideal game but there are some areas that are too broad to touch and 50/50s are a gray area. In order for 50/50s to truly be ban worthy they must essentially be stacked in favor the user, which makes them not 50/50s. That is because there is a usual risk/reward sense of decision making behind most 50/50s and in order for them to be truly uncompetitive they must have a great high reward/low risk ratio toward the user. Aegislash's are not this because the entirety of them exclusive to him involve King's Shield which is a passive move. Therefore there will always be one option of the 50/50 that will not be to any benefit to the user because of it being a loss of tempo. It's a risky move in that you use it when you decide the risk of forfeiting tempo is worth the reward of potentially disabling a physical offensive threat and regaining your defenses. There is a degree of skill and player decision behind this process, so Aegislash cannot be overly uncompetitive.
So because Aegislash is not too centralizing, powerful, or uncompetitive I can conclude it is not ban worthy. As such I will be voting no ban on this suspect.
Yes, I did have to start this essay with that pun. When else will I get a chance to use it again?
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