np: ORAS UU Stage 3.2 - Game of Pricks [Pidgeotite voted BL] - See Post #257

Status
Not open for further replies.
mpidgeot%20reqs_zpsdf8x2jbq.png

Not a bad way to make another a comeback, if I do say so myself. Before this suspect test began, the last metagame I played in was essentially the same (it was shortly before the Victini suspect test), so I think I can stand to comment on a few things.

I noticed that without Mega-Pidgeot, bulkier teams are significantly more common. Even the balance team I stole used relied on fast, bulky EV spreads (btw, King UU your EVs are garbage, but thanks for the team). I found this almost counter-intuitive; "losing" Mega-Pidgeot should have given the slightly slower and more frail Pokemon (read: Lucario, Azelf, etc.) to come out from hiding and play a bit. Stall was frequent on the higher ends of the ladder, which my team was poorly equipped to deal with (easily 15/21 losses right there, delayed getting reqs). I personally hate stall, don't mind using it, but it was good to see it be good again. That and I'm tired of reading complaints about stall being terrible. Piss off. It's never been terrible. Just difficult and every team has essentially looked the same since XY.

On that last note there, holy jesus a lot of the teams I faced (low ladder gems aside) looked eerily similar. At least 75% of the teams I fought had at least 3 or 4 Pokemon in common, which raises some concerns in my eyes. There's 60-70 Pokemon in this tier, and while not all of them are good, some diversity should be expected. I did not expect this with Mega-Pidgeot being banned on the suspect ladder, and rather fully expected the slightly slower and frail stuff to re-emerge. Fighting-types (with the exception of Mienshao and Cobalion) are still super hard to come by - I think I saw two Heracross and one Lucario in all 79 matches. Did everyone forget one of the best Flying-types is temporarily off the ladder? Is Doublade and Mega-Aerodactyl still enough of a deterrent? Could the metagame still be under a centralizing force? I dunno. I have theories, but this isn't the place to discuss that.

Also, ban Scald please and thank you. RU and NU may hate you for it now, but give it a couple hours. They'll forgive you.

Regardless of whether or not Mega-Pidgeot gets banned or not, offense is quite obviously the premier playstyle in Underused right now. Losing Mega-Pidgeot has given Balance and Semi-Stall a bit of a stronger foothold, but I don't think it's quite enough to tip the scales. I still think Feraligatr deserves a serious looking at, but that's for another time. Roserade is really good without Mega-Pidgeot shitting on it. Sleep Powder is pretty clutch when it decides to hit.
 
I haven't laddered yet on the suspect ladder be cause I'm at my brothers house but before the suspect I never found Pidgeot overwhelming it was just that gay ass confusión chance that made it really difficult to play around. If you know how I play then you know I build bulky offense/balance teams. How my teams typically deal with Pidgeot (sans confusion) is by having a solid switch in but also having a reliable way to revenge kill it. It's not even like NU where people were running Scarf Swoobat to revenge it. In UU you can run viable mons to revenge it and switch in but that confusion chance really sucks. That confusion chance sets it apart from Pokemon like Hydreigon and Aerodactyl because it can hax past checks and counters and generate free turns for itself and teammates.
 
and create momentum

Momentum is conserved.


Anyhow, judging by your various statements and thinking mega-bee has 140 speed, I question your actual experience on the ladder as well as your ladder position a great deal.

Keep in mind that as of now, I am neither pro-ban nor anti-ban.

You said pidgeot's speed tier is far from good. Allow me to put this into perspective, forgive me if I generalize a bit too much. Most common scarfers: mienshao, chandy, hydreigon. Things that can outspeed pidge (that are relevant): mega aero, mega bee, mega scep, crobat. Out of these 7 mons, only mienshao, hydreigon and mega aero can reliable revenge kill pidge (pjab from bee does 85). So saying it has mediocre speed is definitely not the case.

The calcs you showed were also quite silly as nobody runs max spatk flower or max spdef rotom.

I mean, I kinda get some of your points, but I think you're really over exaggerating pidgeot's flaws. I don't mean to presume and forgive me if this is not the case, but it kinda sounds like you've made up your mind about pidgeot even before the suspect ladder went up.
 
Momentum is conserved.


Anyhow, judging by your various statements and thinking mega-bee has 140 speed, I question your actual experience on the ladder as well as your ladder position a great deal.

Keep in mind that as of now, I am neither pro-ban nor anti-ban.

You said pidgeot's speed tier is far from good. Allow me to put this into perspective, forgive me if I generalize a bit too much. Most common scarfers: mienshao, chandy, hydreigon. Things that can outspeed pidge (that are relevant): mega aero, mega bee, mega scep, crobat. Out of these 7 mons, only mienshao, hydreigon and mega aero can reliable revenge kill pidge (pjab from bee does 85). So saying it has mediocre speed is definitely not the case.

The calcs you showed were also quite silly as nobody runs max spatk flower or max spdef rotom.

I mean, I kinda get some of your points, but I think you're really over exaggerating pidgeot's flaws. I don't mean to presume and forgive me if this is not the case, but it kinda sounds like you've made up your mind about pidgeot even before the suspect ladder went up.

I've got hundred of hours of using mega pidgeot and I've seen some shit. Rewatching my older videos, I did say in one of them Pidgeot is quite broken because against some team, pidgeot just shits on stuff (this is the exact same in OU too) I do want to withdraw that speed comment but only slightly. To me, the 110 speed tier has been pretty useless since gen 4 and the faster mons create odd tiers within speed. Pokemon like Jolteon could come in drop a shadow ball on Gengar and the Lati twins and score a KO and teams not prepared for it or weaken could go down because of Jolteon's base 130 speed, it the same thing here. There are still lots of pokemon that can get over that common 110, like Ambipom but there are still Pokemon that get over Pidgeot's base 121 after it mega's naturally or through scarf. Like I said, any Pokemon with base 65 speed beneficial will get over max speed mega bird. From my testing, most teams easily had a poke that could get over Pidgeot in speed easily or completely wall it.

While people don't use bulky defense rotoms all the time, they still get used but a un-invested rotom still volt switches it for 70% and Poke's like Florges still his pidgeot for at least 60% if running max attack calm mind set

252+ SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 186-219 (60.3 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If you wanted to run pure bulk or some random bulky offense set you still get at best a 2HKO

0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 135-160 (43.8 - 51.9%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 99-117 (27.5 - 32.5%) -- 62.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery


The flower at +1 is still hard for pidgeot to handle and no pidgeot is not going to workup against a wall that can calm mind, since you gain no bulk while they get all the bulk.

This is just one example of course but lots of people use Florges. Confusion is always something to worry about but its no different than any other status condition but this goes away and can end in one turn. Keep in mind pidgeot 83/80/80 bulk isn't that great and while it can take a hit from some thing, its not going survive all hit. A hi jump kick takes it down, any super effective attack from an sweeper takes it down.

In my battles and review my videos, Pidgeot needs the help of its team to get going whether or not you use a wall breaker set or the standardish sets. Pidgeot's 135 special attack isn't that great when compared to other megas or non mega pokes. Its still pretty stong, not going to undersell that at all and while I may have some bias in favor of Pidgeot, it doesn't have the tools that most other pokes have. Commonly used pokes like m/aero still gives in problems and other pokes with megas can still function without their mega like scarfed herracross, all of which I ran into. Pidgeot also doesn't priority and if you cant get rid of rock, you're limited to your switch ins and its bulk won't let it roost effectively unless you're against something that can't hit it hard to begin with and if you don't have a wall breaker set, which not all mega pidgeots run, you're screwed.

Pidgeot has its fair share of problems in UU, like it does in OU and I feel I've been pretty modest about this. Im not going to list all the counters and checks because others did that but like any other team, if you don't have a poke to handle your opponents pokes, you're going to lose.
 
I've got hundred of hours of using mega pidgeot and I've seen some shit. Rewatching my older videos, I did say in one of them Pidgeot is quite broken because against some team, pidgeot just shits on stuff (this is the exact same in OU too) I do want to withdraw that speed comment but only slightly. To me, the 110 speed tier has been pretty useless since gen 4 and the faster mons create odd tiers within speed. Pokemon like Jolteon could come in drop a shadow ball on Gengar and the Lati twins and score a KO and teams not prepared for it or weaken could go down because of Jolteon's base 130 speed, it the same thing here. There are still lots of pokemon that can get over that common 110, like Ambipom but there are still Pokemon that get over Pidgeot's base 121 after it mega's naturally or through scarf. Like I said, any Pokemon with base 65 speed beneficial will get over max speed mega bird. From my testing, most teams easily had a poke that could get over Pidgeot in speed easily or completely wall it.

While people don't use bulky defense rotoms all the time, they still get used but a un-invested rotom still volt switches it for 70% and Poke's like Florges still his pidgeot for at least 60% if running max attack calm mind set

252+ SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 186-219 (60.3 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If you wanted to run pure bulk or some random bulky offense set you still get at best a 2HKO

0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 135-160 (43.8 - 51.9%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 99-117 (27.5 - 32.5%) -- 62.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery


The flower at +1 is still hard for pidgeot to handle and no pidgeot is not going to workup against a wall that can calm mind, since you gain no bulk while they get all the bulk.

This is just one example of course but lots of people use Florges. Confusion is always something to worry about but its no different than any other status condition but this goes away and can end in one turn. Keep in mind pidgeot 83/80/80 bulk isn't that great and while it can take a hit from some thing, its not going survive all hit. A hi jump kick takes it down, any super effective attack from an sweeper takes it down.

In my battles and review my videos, Pidgeot needs the help of its team to get going whether or not you use a wall breaker set or the standardish sets. Pidgeot's 135 special attack isn't that great when compared to other megas or non mega pokes. Its still pretty stong, not going to undersell that at all and while I may have some bias in favor of Pidgeot, it doesn't have the tools that most other pokes have. Commonly used pokes like m/aero still gives in problems and other pokes with megas can still function without their mega like scarfed herracross, all of which I ran into. Pidgeot also doesn't priority and if you cant get rid of rock, you're limited to your switch ins and its bulk won't let it roost effectively unless you're against something that can't hit it hard to begin with and if you don't have a wall breaker set, which not all mega pidgeots run, you're screwed.

Pidgeot has its fair share of problems in UU, like it does in OU and I feel I've been pretty modest about this. Im not going to list all the counters and checks because others did that but like any other team, if you don't have a poke to handle your opponents pokes, you're going to lose.

I'm sorry but I question how much you really understand UU with these examples. Ambipom is a complete shitmon in RU, and you are bringing up its relevance in UU? And I also am not sure why you bring up speed tiers from OU to compare with UU. There are much, much less fast threats in UU than OU, so 110 base speed is very fast in UU while it is only decent in OU. In fact, a mon with 110 base speed would be the 5th fastest pokemon in the tier (please correct if I'm wrong, I didn't look up speed tiers), whereas 110 base speed is tied with and outsped by a plethora of OU threats. You don't seem to realize that only FOUR pokemon outspeed it naturally in UU. Yes scarfers can outspeed it but so what? It still outspeeds like 90% of the tier.

And then you bring up both max SpA modest florges and max SpD calm Florges, both of which are literally never seen in UU. By far the most common set is physically defensive bold or with a bit of SpD
 
Hey guys, i haven't really played much UU, so I won't post thoughts yet (i do plan to suspect ladder)

what I came here to say is, stop replying to Crystal Pidgeot.

Crystal Pidgeot, this isn't to shit talk you. I just don't think you know this metagame very well, based on your calcing of 252 SpA Florges, and I'm almost certain that you're very biased towards Pidgeot. So you're just cluttering up the thread and making it more difficult for everyone to read and discuss. I get that you feel like you have things worth saying, and you really, really don't Mega Pidgeot to get banned because you like it a lot, but on the first count it seems safe to say you're wrong, and on the second count, unfortunately irrelevant. And hey, at least it'll still be a very cool Pokemon in OU. You should just, as the saying goes, 'lurk more', get to know Smogon's culture and this game / whichever metagame, and then post your thoughts

everyone else: when you reply to this guy it's a waste of space. more importantly though, I just end up feeling bad for him as his arguments get torn to shreds. even if crystal pidgeot ignores my plea, please just stop replying, because I'm actually interested in hearing people's thoughts instead of having conversations derailed by this dude
 
@ tehy This is part of the reason no one likes Smogon because everyone comes off as entitled elitist and fuck anyone else with an opinion that differs from the masses. I know I have bias towards mega pidgeot and thats why I'm not going to vote in whether or not its going to stay in UU or not. I'm just sharing my experiences as a player who uses the Pokemon and what people are saying about Pidgeot isn't something no other Pokemon can't do.

If others can cherry pick replays, why can't I?

@ MrGorbachev I'm using examples from games I have played. No one who play UU has to exclusively use Pokemon from UU. Just because a Pokemon is in a lower tier doesn't mean it can't be useful. I based my speed tier based on Gen 4 meta where a Pokemon like Jolteon and Ambipom shit on Pokemon with base 110. It doesn't matter if Pidgeot outspeeds 90% of the tier because in UU, m/Aero, m-beedrill and crobat outspeed Pidgeot and that very same 90% and not counting scarf pokes, M aero and m beedrill are at the top.

Again, in case you missed what I posted, this is based on games I have recorded and teams I've played against.
 
Lel.
On the fence. Haven't played much but I think I can post some thoughts. Offense still seems as prominent as Pidgeot-meta; the main offensive archetypes are still there. Played 8 matches I only saw one Lucario and one Shao; as someone stated here, there ain't much fighting-types as expected.
So on Pidgeot. It is a wallbreaker so it is supposed to have few counters; problem I have is that all these counters may fall to Hurricane confusion rates, meaning all Pidgeot's "counters" are pretty shaky. Add that to Roost, this thing becomes pretty annoying to deal with. Remember though, that when a mon happens to be a good counter or check to Pidgeot rarely this is its main role. Empoleon is a really good mon atm, which while "counters" Pidgeot ( as shaky as any other of its counters), its main role is usually as a hazard setter and even hazard removal. Most things that check the bird also have another uses. And I don't remember of any common gimmicky set with its only purpose being to counter Pidgeot.
While it deals with its counters nicely (tho still with some hax) ppl have mentioned here already that Pidgeot has difficulties on being brought in battle. It is either slow U-turn / Volt-Switch or RK. Not to mention SR.
Stall has become more viable, but imo, I might be wrong, the removal of any S-rank mon, which are all usually offensive threats, would make stall more viable. Even the removal of some A-ranks threats would do the same, offensive is just the most viable playstyle right now. I don't see the loss of Pidgeot meaning stall won't build flying-resists again, that would be quite dumb.
Yet Pidgeot has a fucking 110 power STAB with the same rate of confusion as the rate of Scald burn. I mean, is not considered so much hax if you get a Scald burn, that move is supposed to do that sooner or later. Work up set just wrecks. You MUST take into account Pidgeot (AND all the other flying-types commonly seen in the meta) while you are teambuilding.
So to sum it up. Pidge is a low to medium -risk mon / extremely-high reward mon as top tier mons should be. But everything that checks it are great mons by themselves in the meta with or without Pidge. Pidge is a not so bulky wallbreaker that has difficulties being brought in battle, especially with rocks up. He can get past all its counters with Hurricane's confusion rates. Actually, just a Work Up might get past some of these (not all). It does hinder the viability of several mons in the meta, but makes other mons more viable; this is normal for a S-rank threat. It isn't exactly overcentralizing, tho it is a teambuilder restrict. Definetely no playstyle is fully hindered by Pidge. After typing this, I think Pidge is a very influentional force in the meta, tho not ban material. I'm not 100% sure tho.

 
So basically I didn't want to give my opinion on this suspect before I got the reqs which I was able to get yesterday. So now I will post my thoughts.
Everytime I participate in a suspect, before talking about the checks and counters I like to see how the pokemon suspected affects archetypes.
I totally think that Mega Pidgeot is almost ineffective vs the stall archetype. Besides U-turn for momentum and Refresh maybe,but still Stall can greatly deal with it whether with Blissey obviously present on most stalls as well as other pokemons like Florges, Empoleon specially bulky rest talk Ampharos who can block tricks 2 and a few others. However it starts affecting bulky balanced teams and greatly affects balanced teams and bulky offensive teams. With its incredible base 121 speed and 135 base special attack, it has a 100% accurate base 110 STAB with no side effect and not only that it has a 30% confusion chance which is for me the main reason why those three archetypes struggles against it; It causes a restriction in teambuilding, It obliges you to have Empoleon, Florges or bulky Snorlax on every team unless you want to lose to confusion on other weaker checks like Slowking or Porygon for example. Finally, offense has almost no switch ins to its powerful hits. It has to rely on being faster, avoiding confusion and on mamoswine which is sometimes manageable and sometimes not depending on the other pokemons paired with Mega Pigeot. So it also increases the luck factor.

So in summary this pokemon affects all archetypes(besides stall) with different degrees. It also greatly restricts teambuilding and increase the luck factor. So for me It's over centralizing and should be banned from Oras UU.
 
Last edited:
lol so I wasn't going to post my thoughts on this until the end but I got reqs yesterday so why not. I feel as though Mega-Pidgeot should get banned from UU. To put it simply, it's too much of a threat. Nothing in the tier wants to switch in comfortably bar empoleon, blissey and florges to an extent. Essentially you need to run one of these mons on your team or else you're going to get swept with ease. Now I realize that these mons are good period with or without Mega-Pidgeot in the tier, but with Mega-Pidgeot gone you're not as inclined to use them and you have a little more breathing room to team build. You have a mon that outspeeds essentially the whole tier bar 4, a base special attack of 135, 100% accurate STAB Hurricanes and then to top it all of it has the 30% chance to confuse your opponents. It can set up with work up, keep momentum with u-turns, and then it has reliable recovery being roost. It's not a glass cannon like Mega-Beedril so it's able to take a hit, Not well if its a super effective hit, but it's able to take one.

We can all agree that just because a pokemon is S rank, it doesn't mean it should get banned, but if you have a mon that's as low risk and high rewarding as this one then there's a problem. To sum it up this mon restricts teambuilding, sweeps through teams with ease bar maybe 3 exceptions, and has a 100 percent accurate STAB move that causes confusion. I feel as though if Mega-Pidgeot is banned, then we get to see the rise of ape and shaymin which isn't a bad thing and as said earlier gives you breathing room. So again, I feel as though it should get banned.
 
I definitely enjoyed the suspect ladder. The metagame isn't much different without Mega Pidgeot. There are a few less Empoleon, and an increased number of stall teams that would get 6-0'd by the Work Up Refresh set. Pidgeot's absence also opens up some room in the 108-120 speed tiers, allowing mons like Mega Houndoom, Volt Switch Cobalion, and even Durant to shine. It's mostly the same old UU though. The most noticeable change by far is the absence of rage-inducing confusion hax every other game.

I've been in favor of a Mega Pidgeot ban since before it was S rank, and this suspect test has done nothing to change my opinion. Two Hurricanes will induce confusion more than half the time, forcing teams to rely on more than just Florges or Porygon2 to stop the bird. With Pidgeot gone, teambuilding is much easier, games are more competitive, and the tier is more fun. Ban Pidgeot.
 
So right now I am of the opinion that Pidgeot should not be banned from UU.
1. Pidgeot does not restrict Teambuilding. Pidgeot has many theoretical counters and checks including Rhyperior,Empoleon,Spdef Umbreon, Florges, Snorlax, Jolteon,Mega Aerodactyl, Blissey and probably more that I can't get off the top of my head. Now the reason I say theoretical is that because these all are susceptible to confusion hax (which I will address later). The most important thing is that these counters are all viable and fit all playstyles. If you're running balance for example, you are going to need something to take strong special hits anyway. If you don't have anything to take a powerful Hurricane, you're probably not going to have anything for a Hydreigon or other special attacker anyway. Also, this has been said before but a good mon forcing you to run a check is not unhealthy or gamebreaking. If you don't have a scarf shao or Mega-aero counter you will struggle just the same as if you don't have a switchin to strong special attackers. The day we start running shit like Own Tempo Slowking is the day when I will admit that pidgeot is restrictive.
2.I really think we are overestimating the power of confusion. Yes, 30% is relatively high (same as a scald burn), but at the same time it also means your theoretical counter will be able to beat it more often than not. I also don't think that posting replays of Pidgeot outskilling an Empoleon is neccesarily fair. For every replay of an Empoleon losing to a Pidgeot I could probably show you 5-10 replays of Empoleon doing exactly what it's supposed to do i.e. Forcing it out and gaining momentum. It's just the law of probability, eventually something unlikely (an empoleon losing to a Pidgeot from full, for example) will occur. Yes, it is pretty bs when you lose a game because of 5 self hits in confusion in a row, but that situation is the exception rather than the rule.
tl;dr:
Pidgeot does not restrict teambuilding anymore than other top threats, and its confusion chance is relatively high but not enough to completely invalidate every counter ever like people are implying
 
So right now I am of the opinion that Pidgeot should not be banned from UU.
1. Pidgeot does not restrict Teambuilding. Pidgeot has many theoretical counters and checks including Rhyperior,Empoleon,Spdef Umbreon, Florges, Snorlax, Jolteon,Mega Aerodactyl, Blissey and probably more that I can't get off the top of my head.(I will erase Umbreon, Florges, and Jolteon as ways to beat Pidgeot. So from what you have left with us, that is 6 counters that are viable since I added Porygon2 and Rest/Talk Mega Amph. Now that is 6 pokemon out of all of UU pokemon that can handle a Pidgeot decently well. I am confused how you think that does not limit teambuilding?) Now the reason I say theoretical is that because these all are susceptible to confusion hax (which I will address later). The most important thing is that these counters are all viable and fit all playstyles.(This is true, bar Blissey.) If you're running balance for example, you are going to need something to take strong special hits anyway. If you don't have anything to take a powerful Hurricane, you're probably not going to have anything for a Hydreigon or other special attacker anyway. Also, this has been said before but a good mon forcing you to run a check is not unhealthy or gamebreaking. If you don't have a scarf shao or Mega-aero counter you will struggle just the same as if you don't have a switchin to strong special attackers. The day we start running shit like Own Tempo Slowking is the day when I will admit that pidgeot is restrictive.
2.I really think we are overestimating the power of confusion. Yes, 30% is relatively high (same as a scald burn), but at the same time it also means your theoretical counter will be able to beat it more often than not. I also don't think that posting replays of Pidgeot outskilling an Empoleon is neccesarily fair. For every replay of an Empoleon losing to a Pidgeot I could probably show you 5-10 replays of Empoleon doing exactly what it's supposed to do i.e. Forcing it out and gaining momentum.(I am assuming you are referring to my post where I displayed 3 test games. I want you to keep in mind that those were 3 back to back replays and I did not hand pick the good ones. And in those 3 replays, one of which Empleon handled Pidgeot well and the other 2 not so much.) It's just the law of probability, eventually something unlikely (an empoleon losing to a Pidgeot from full, for example) will occur. Yes, it is pretty bs when you lose a game because of 5 self hits in confusion in a row, but that situation is the exception rather than the rule.(When a pokemon has the ability to break its counters with luck as you are admitting, how is that healthy for a meta-game?)
tl;dr:
Pidgeot does not restrict teambuilding anymore than other top threats, and its confusion chance is relatively high but not enough to completely invalidate every counter ever like people are implying
My comments are in red.
 
Hi I'm dingbat

Anyways, I'm around 21 battles into the suspect test and turns out I have built one heck of a balance team that I'm 19-2 with so far. Within these 21 battles, I am definitely seeing the effects on this meta that you guys were pointing out because now I'm seeing more underrepresented threats whose effectiveness was hampered by the presence of mega pidgey. (Yeah, I lost to np Ape) But the sad truth is, I myself have not even played a single UU game between the Victini and the mega Pidgey suspect test, which is the biggest reason I'm not yet willing to take one side or the other.

If I end up getting reqs and I don't end up testing some sort of game with pidgey, I may as well just hit the abstain button on this because of my lack of experience with and against it.
 
K so on the luck factor I think this is a good post to read about the subject: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/scald.3541817/#post-6287375. Sure, you have to think about using every move (with the expection of long-banned Swagplay, OHKO moves), what might be the consequences, what are you are accomplishing using the specific move. But can we really say Hurricane is anything besides a powerful slot machine? Everyone here knows damn influentional Scald is in this meta (I definetely hope for a suspect test), now we have a move that has the same ratios for confusion which is, imo, even more luck-based status, basically totally annoying. Does the luck factor hinders any strategical use behind Hurricane? If the answer is yes, ban ban ban ban ban. I'm not sure tho. EDIT: Let me make myself clear tho, Hurricane is not a broken move imo, its just that in normal situations, I think miss chance which is quite high balances out, but Pidge, as everyone knows, has No Guard.
 
Last edited:
The problem is that the Flying type is one of the best offensive types right now not only in UU and it's totally spammable and get you wins. Having no side effects with a 110 flying move AND a 30% confusion is just too much for UU. In fact, you have to know that in UU Pigeot have a hell of a freedom. Its only known moves are Hurricane and Heat Wave and the other 2 can be anything between 4 to 5 great moves. It also can run modest since with modest it still outspeeds regular Mienshao. It really has too much freedom, add to that the 30% confusion it is definitely increasing the luck factor and over centralizing.
 
Just got requirements to vote. Anyhow, I've seen quite a lot of discussion surrounding the luck factor behind Mega Pidgeot and Hurricane. I've seen some comparisons to Scald in the fact it's a spammable move that has a 30% chance to probably screw something. I feel as if the comparison between the two is for naught since they're fundamentally different in the fact Scald's burn chance is going to be crippling something for the rest of the match whereas Hurricane's 30% chance has a possibility to completely invalidate a Pokemon for a turn. Now this, coupled with the fact Pidgeot doesn't have too many good switch-ins, especially considering it also has Heat Wave and Refresh in its arsenal, could potentially make Pidgeot a broken Pokemon. As it is, even after getting requirements I'm still undecided what to vote for and might just vote abstain should none of the sides' argument persuade me. Pidgeot had a 15% chance to render its check / counter useless every time it's hit by Hurricane, now normally this wouldn't be too bad. But it's also coming off base 135 Special Attack and is backed by 121 base Speed. Pidgeot also has access to U-turn, meaning it can just gain chip damage off a defensive check that switched in, and should that check be confused, it could potentially just not do anything for a turn, essentially meaning the Pidgeot user has a free turn to do whatever. This is extremely easily exploited. For instance, Mega Aerodactyl could switch in, and considering Stealth Rock are on the field, it's taken over half from Stealth Rock + Hurricane. Now, should Mega Aerodactyl get confused and hit itself in confusion as it attempts to Roost, it cannot come in against Pidgeot again as long as Stealth Rock is on the field. This is quite big considering Mega Aerodactyl is offenses best and sometimes only switch in for Mega Pidgeot. This is just one of many examples, however. Anyhow another thing to bring attention to is Hurricane's "spammability" where it's a very stong move, coming off good natural Special Attack, and has no immunities coupled with very few bulky resistances. Pidgeot is also a very centralizing force in the metagame, especially to more defensively inclined archetypes, as they not only need a switch in, but they need a switch in that can also deal with the potential Work Up set that allows it to push through a few of its defensive checks. Now, onto some of the points for Pidgeot to not be banned. Pidgeot's checks and counters are still as viable as they were, with maybe the exception of a few Pokemon. For instance, Empoleon, Mega Aerodactyl and Thunder Wave Blissey are all still very viable and are seeing usage in their respective archetypes. Pidgeot also requires a free turn to Mega Evolve, which can be hard to find should the Mega Pidgeot user come against offensive archetypes that give him no breathing space to Mega Evolve. Another thing to note is Mega Pidgeot's vulnerability to Stealth Rock and coupled with priority and the number of Choice Scarf users, it can be revenge killed quite easily. This is, however, a two-way thing since revenge killing means something has to get KOed first. For hyper offense, this might not be too big of an issue since the playstyle involves a lot of sacking anyhow, but for bulky offense for example this can be game changing. Anyways, looking forward to seeing more discussion on this suspect test.
 
Last edited:
Just got requirements to vote. Anyhow, I've seen quite a lot of discussion surrounding the luck factor behind Mega Pidgeot and Hurricane. I've seen some comparisons to Scald in the fact it's a spammable move that has a 30% chance to probably screw something. I feel as if the comparison between the two is for naught since they're fundamentally different in the fact Scald's burn chance is going to be crippling something for the rest of the match whereas Hurricane's 30% chance has a possibility to completely invalidate a Pokemon for a turn. Now this, coupled with the fact Pidgeot doesn't have too many good switch-ins, especially considering it also has Heat Wave and Refresh in its arsenal, could potentially make Pidgeot a broken Pokemon. As it is, even after getting requirements I'm still undecided what to vote for and might just vote abstain should none of the sides' argument persuade me. Pidgeot had a 15% chance to render its check / counter useless every time it's hit by Hurricane, now normally this wouldn't be too bad. But it's also coming off base 135 Special Attack and is backed by 121 base Speed. Pidgeot also has access to U-turn, meaning it can just gain chip damage off a defensive check that switched in, and should that check be confused, it could potentially just not do anything for a turn, essentially meaning the Pidgeot user has a free turn to do whatever. This is extremely easily exploited. For instance, Mega Aerodactyl could switch in, and considering Stealth Rock are on the field, it's taken over half from Stealth Rock + Hurricane. Now, should Mega Aerodactyl get confused and hit itself in confusion as it attempts to Roost, it cannot come in against Pidgeot again as long as Hurricane is on the field. This is quite big considering Mega Aerodactyl is offenses best and sometimes only switch in for Mega Pidgeot. This is just one of many examples, however. Anyhow another thing to bring attention to is Hurricane's "spammability" where it's a very stong move, coming off good natural Special Attack, and has no immunities coupled with very few bulky resistances. Pidgeot is also a very centralizing force in the metagame, especially to more defensively inclined archetypes, as they not only need a switch in, but they need a switch in that can also deal with the potential Work Up set that allows it to push through a few of its defensive checks. Now, onto some of the points for Pidgeot to not be banned. Pidgeot's checks and counters are still as viable as they were, with maybe the exception of a few Pokemon. For instance, Empoleon, Mega Aerodactyl and Thunder Wave Blissey are all still very viable and are seeing usage in their respective archetypes. Pidgeot also requires a free turn to Mega Evolve, which can be hard to find should the Mega Pidgeot user come against offensive archetypes that give him no breathing space to Mega Evolve. Another thing to note is Mega Pidgeot's vulnerability to Stealth Rock and coupled with priority and the number of Choice Scarf users, it can be revenge killed quite easily. This is, however, a two-way thing since revenge killing means something has to get KOed first. For hyper offense, this might not be too big of an issue since the playstyle involves a lot of sacking anyhow, but for bulky offense for example this can be game changing. Anyways, looking forward to seeing more discussion on this suspect test.
Burn and confusion are definetely different., As Scald is a current hot topic and many people incline to ban it due to it causing bulky water-types just mindlessly spamming scald to get the burn (in the UU meta). Basically, Scald requires few to no skill to be used while being easily spammed by bulky water-types. By bringing this comparison, I wanted to question wether if we can say the same about Pidge's Hurricane, if it can be just mindlessly spammed due to the reasons yourself mentioned, if there is any skill regarding its use. I completely agree with you on Hurricane and Scald having different effects, not only by inflicting different status.
 
No move requires skill to use, you're clicking a button not performing heart surgery. Anyways, the only style that really struggles with Pidgeot is balance and stall if you build shittily. Balance is obviously the most prone to getting haxed over since you can't really fit a secondary check too easily due to the limited pool and shared ground weakness. Every other style has mons that match up similarly. For example, reuniclus dunks stall, gatr shits on balance, and stuff like chand/hydreigon runs through offense. The question you have to ask yourselves is does Pidgeot have too many good match ups or is this just another case of a mon being good versus certain playstyles and bad against others.
 
The thing is, Pidgeot doesn't really match up poorly versus any playstyles. While it is the most effective vs balance and stall not carrying a check to the Work Up + Refresh set, I definitely would not say Pidgeot is bad vs offense. While offense can usually revenge kill Pidgeot and does not give it any free switch ins (for the most part), offense also often does not have a switch in to Pidgeot, meaning Pidgeot gets a huge hit off and potentially a kill every time it comes in. It's a fast mon that hits extremely hard. Offense definitely isn't Pidgeot's best matchup, but I really wouldn't say it's a bad matchup at all.
 
Offensive doesn't really switch into anything unless you have balls of steel. The fact that it can never come in and gets revenge killed by everything makes for a pretty convincing bad match up tbh.
 
It comes in if something on your team faints, or if you manage to predict a switch on your opponent's end. It's not the easiest thing to get in vs offense, but then again no offensive mons are easy to get in vs opposing offense teams. And to say it gets revenge killed by everything is quite an exaggeration considering it outspeeds all but four (Aero/Bee/Scept/Bat) of the unboosted meta, so if you don't have one of those mons you have to rely on your scarfer, and not all scarfers can revenge kill Pidgeot without some prior damage (Salamence/Hydreigon/Chandy/Heracross all need rocks damage at least, and Mienshao has a 20% chance to not OHKO from full).
 
Offensive teams are extremely easy to keep rocks up with unless you get caught off guard by random defog mons. This let's pretty much any scarfer ko. Add in one or two more switch ins and it dies to priority, which is pretty much mandatory. That plus one or two things that can stomach a hurricane and ko back means pidge can never fire off hurricanes freely
 
What you're forgetting is that in order to get your scarfer in on Pidgeot, you have to sack something, so if you're sacking every time a pokemon comes in, I really wouldn't say that pokemon has bad matchup vs your team
 
It also can run modest since with modest it still outspeeds regular Mienshao.
Every so often people mention that modest is viable, but they never providing calcs. Not picking on you specifically, but I don't think anyone has ever made the case that modest is viable. What threat does modest let you beat that timid couldn't? I'm not aware of any. On the other hand, there are a huge number of relevant threats that outspeed modest Mega Pidgeot - including Azelf, Cobalion, Whimsicott, Infernape, Mega Absol, Heliolisk, and Tornadus. If you're slogging through lower ladder, Espeon and Galvantula are two very common threats down there that Pidgeot outspeeds with timid and not modest. Then there's the issue of Pidgeot's first turn in battle, where it gets base 101 rather than base 121 speed. If you go with modest, pokemon such as Salamence, Hydreigon, Krookodile, Roserade, Shaymin, Arcanine, Haxorus, and Porygon-Z can outspeed you and that may prevent you from revenging them if Pidgeot has not yet mega evolved. That's a lot of very good reasons to run timid (or Hasty, if you really care about how much damage your u-turn deals) and I've yet to see anyone make an argument that the small damage boost of modest is worth giving that up.

What you're forgetting is that in order to get your scarfer in on Pidgeot, you have to sack something, so if you're sacking every time a pokemon comes in, I really wouldn't say that pokemon has bad matchup vs your team
Having played Yabo's team repeatedly during the last suspect test, I have to say that it is an utter deathtrap for Pidgeot. Total liability of a teamslot against him and a perfect example of what Sam's talking about when he says Pidgeot matches up poorly against some teams. Yabo doesn't really care about sacrificing a pokemon to force out Pidgeot, because he's not going to give you many opportunities to bring it in and all he's trying to do is blow holes in your team until one of his two sweepers can go nuts (which usually gives an opportunity for the other sweeper to step in and finish the job). Pidgeot can't do jack to Swampert or Slurpuff once they're set up, and Swampert is bulky enough to just tank a Hurricane while it sets up anyways, so it's not going to be able to do much of anything to stop the main engine of Yabo's team. If you're gambling on a 30% chance of confusion to cripple his sweeper, you're going to lose 9 times out of 10. Not a bad gamble if you're otherwise beaten, but I'd much rather have a different pokemon that can actually take on his win-cons and stop them.

Now, most HO teams are not nearly as unfavorable for Pidgeot's as Yabo's, but the fact remains that most of their win-cons outspeed and OHKO Pidgeot once they're set up. If you can keep the right checks to your opponent's sweeper(s) healthy and/or prevent them from getting a setup opportunity then that's great, a game of trades with Mega Pidgeot can work to your favor. However, Pidgeot alone isn't going to do that and relies on team support to ensure your opponent doesn't get his ducks aligned for a sweep.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top