UU are so boring, they won't even let me play with the shiny toys OU drops, first Mega Pinsir and now Mega Gyarados T_T
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np: ORAS UU Stage 6 - Slow Hands
- Thread starter Sam
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CanadianWifier
Run Away With Me
Yall are clearly forgetting Lando-i which dropped to UU for a grand total of about 5 minutes earlier this gen in XY. Beats out Mega Gyara by a fair bit.
I'm pretty sure Landorus was usable on the ladder. Mega Gyarados was not.
Cheryl.
Celesteela is Life
Dry Skin is an ability that makes the user immune to Water-type moves, but weaker to Fire-type moves. It also heals the user in Rain, but hurts the user in Sun.
Damn. UU blows now.
When do we get Starmie back?
All shifts are boring af until that point. Who cares about Zam or MGyara.
All shifts are boring af until that point. Who cares about Zam or MGyara.
Starmie isn't coming back until Keldeo stops being so GD threatening.
So, never.
So, never.
Fixed
I personally can't say I like Alakazam being back. Having a good speed tier+being strong is fine. But Magic Guard gives it that immunity to Hazards which means you have to actually break a sash on it, not just set up rocks like every other threatening sash user.
This feels like it'll end up rewarding lazy teambuilding when it comes down to it. I saw somebody say, well bee just got a lot better, but fact of the matter is unless you're carrying bee and probably multiple priority users or scarfers, suddenly a lot of teams are now void due to this thing.
Just my incoherent 6 am opinion.
This feels like it'll end up rewarding lazy teambuilding when it comes down to it. I saw somebody say, well bee just got a lot better, but fact of the matter is unless you're carrying bee and probably multiple priority users or scarfers, suddenly a lot of teams are now void due to this thing.
Just my incoherent 6 am opinion.
Anyway, doing some data mining. Found some interesting drops and rises between December and January:
Top is January. Bottom is December. I feel bad for Sharpedo.
| 40 | Feraligatr | 6.15502% | 49275 | 6.400% | 36213 | 6.109% |
| 17 | Feraligatr | 9.02441% | 28160 | 8.162% | 20697 | 7.819% |
| 20 | Donphan | 8.94518% | 71189 | 9.246% | 59388 | 10.018% |
| 31 | Donphan | 7.20353% | 31154 | 9.029% | 25880 | 9.777% |
| 37 | Tentacruel | 6.48997% | 45349 | 5.890% | 36674 | 6.186% |
| 28 | Tentacruel | 7.43489% | 21984 | 6.372% | 17720 | 6.694% |
| 19 | Sceptile-Mega | 9.05918% | 71752 | 9.319% | 50946 | 8.594% |
| 26 | Sceptile-Mega | 7.69226% | 30149 | 8.738% | 21513 | 8.127% |
| 54 | Sharpedo-Mega | 5.27439% | 35964 | 4.671% | 25129 | 4.239% |
| 27 | Sharpedo-Mega | 7.59693% | 19953 | 5.783% | 13900 | 5.251% |
| 17 | Feraligatr | 9.02441% | 28160 | 8.162% | 20697 | 7.819% |
| 20 | Donphan | 8.94518% | 71189 | 9.246% | 59388 | 10.018% |
| 31 | Donphan | 7.20353% | 31154 | 9.029% | 25880 | 9.777% |
| 37 | Tentacruel | 6.48997% | 45349 | 5.890% | 36674 | 6.186% |
| 28 | Tentacruel | 7.43489% | 21984 | 6.372% | 17720 | 6.694% |
| 19 | Sceptile-Mega | 9.05918% | 71752 | 9.319% | 50946 | 8.594% |
| 26 | Sceptile-Mega | 7.69226% | 30149 | 8.738% | 21513 | 8.127% |
| 54 | Sharpedo-Mega | 5.27439% | 35964 | 4.671% | 25129 | 4.239% |
| 27 | Sharpedo-Mega | 7.59693% | 19953 | 5.783% | 13900 | 5.251% |
Top is January. Bottom is December. I feel bad for Sharpedo.
Tbf I was expecting this Feraligatr drop in usage. While the SD sets are still devastating for unprepared teams, DD sets, which weren't as popular before any drop, have lost even more viability after Gyarados drop. Gyarados is arguably a much better Dragon Dancer than Feraligatr - not only because the jump on base 145 megas, but also because Intimidate + being able to setup on Mamoswine, a huge threat in the UU metagame. We also have been adaptating to Crawdaunt drop, so (good) teams are more likely to be prepare for strong water nukes, like the Gatr SD sets.
Imho, Crawdaunt + Gyarados drop are also behind Mega Sharpedo drop in usage. While those mons does not have exactly the same checks, they are still quite similar and do not require a mega stone to be used, cutting Mega Sharpedo effectiveness as well. Together with new-toy-syndrome,I'm not surprised in Sharpedo usage drop.
Donphan having more usage than Tentacruel makes no sense whatsoever lol
Imho, Crawdaunt + Gyarados drop are also behind Mega Sharpedo drop in usage. While those mons does not have exactly the same checks, they are still quite similar and do not require a mega stone to be used, cutting Mega Sharpedo effectiveness as well. Together with new-toy-syndrome,I'm not surprised in Sharpedo usage drop.
Donphan having more usage than Tentacruel makes no sense whatsoever lol
While I definitely agree with your overall post, I have to say that Gyara is not really always safe to set up on Mamoswine, or at least it shouldn't be. When Mamo was OU it often carried Freeze Dry to beat a lot of the Pokemon like Rotom-Wash that would otherwise hardwall it. So far it hasn't really needed it that much in UU, but with Gyara now in the tier it really should start considering running it again:
4 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 302-359 (91.2 - 108.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Bulky Gyara can live of course, but no matter what it's going to be taking a meaty chunk of HP. So yeah... watch out for Freeze Dry Mamoswine.
Well nightingales while i
Much in the same vein as how ScarfTTar traps Latis + Gengar w8th Pursuit, I can see a rise in Scarf Krookodile usage as well as high usage of Pursuit amongst Aerodactyls to combat the initial wave of Alakazam spam and, if it's good, future instances of Alakazam on Offensive eams.
Bushtush
Banned deucer.
A lot of the mons UU got compared to what it dropped has, in my opinion, improved the metagame and gave people more flexibility when creating teams. The introduction of a bulky setter in Gyarados, hard special hitter in alakazam, a mon that can be a huge asset to balance and stall teams in sab, just to name a few. Gaining mons like these gives users more options in creating the teams, and i can in my honest opinion the recent shifts has helped UU a bit. Some might not share these views but what ive seen, balance and stall teams have greatly increased in usage because of their new assets. HO has gotten some more spotlight as well. How do you guys feel about UU as it is now?
I honestly think the opposite has occurred and has been going on for a while now, which is that it's just gotten worse as a whole imo. Everything that's dropped has been, you guessed it, offensive and they've all been big offensive 'mons too which honestly make it more so that defensive archetypes have been limited to a few set 'mons in order to be able to deal with the plethora of threats the UU metagame currently has. Offense has just been getting better with Crawdaunt > Gyarados > Alakazam being introduced while other playstyles have been declining (this may not be physically representative but honestly speaking, there hasn't been a new wall to play around with for a while bar like defensive Gyarados). Do I think the metagame has improved? Honestly, I can't say it has. While a few more "obscure" / uncommon 'mons such as Meloetta, Escavalier, have come into light, I feel a lot more niche things are coming into play just to be able to deal with the sheer amount of threats there are, i.e HP Electric, Pursuit on everything, etc. And honestly speaking, most teams I see nowadays are just pretty weak to one thing or another which all happen to be offensive threats since I'm honestly unsure if you can cover them all without your team's build looking the same depending on the archetype. Just my opinion, I could be wrong honestly but that's just how I feel about the metagame atm.
On that last note - I built a stall team recently for iron chef then saw pokemonisfun playing a game on the ladder with a team that was exactly identical to mine down to specific moveslots, just because of the huge range of offensive threats stall now needs to cover.
Speaking on defensive gyarados - it's actually proven to be a really neat mon that I've used on a couple of balanced/bulky offense squads. It means you're essentially immune to mamoswine because noone runs freeze dry and you take a pittance from each of its moves. It also gives you a neat check to lucario, cobas without se, and gets a really cool range of support options like taunt/roar/twave to make it a pain for balance teams to deal with. Definitely check it out next time you're building a team.
Speaking on defensive gyarados - it's actually proven to be a really neat mon that I've used on a couple of balanced/bulky offense squads. It means you're essentially immune to mamoswine because noone runs freeze dry and you take a pittance from each of its moves. It also gives you a neat check to lucario, cobas without se, and gets a really cool range of support options like taunt/roar/twave to make it a pain for balance teams to deal with. Definitely check it out next time you're building a team.
Defensive teams don't need a new wall in order to 'improve'. I don't think non-offense teams have been declining at all. Just because a mon is offensive doesn't mean it's exclusively used on offense. Even fat teams need some sort of offensive pressure and Gyarados is able to provide that without being a defensive liability. Zam is probably the most threatening against offense. It's able to threaten so much in a single slot which is really nice for balance. The addition of offensive mons to the tier doesn't necessarily improve offense.
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
newfren I am fairly certain stall can be much more diverse than our teams but I'm quite lazy honestly and do not see any reason to innovate new cores or teams when I have one that is working. That said I do keep three active stall teams generally to prevent counter teaming issues and they all do have common themes such as Volt Switch immunity, Regenerator user, specially fat cleric, a Pokemon with Scald, etc. but I would argue rather than staleness or restrictiveness this pattern is more emblematic of playstyles evolving. Nobody really for instance considers it stale or too restrictive that everyone uses Heal Bell or Aromatherapy on a stall team. Its just a natural response to the metagame and a way to stay effective.
Sam although I agree with most of your post I can't help but get the feeling you are saying Alakazam doesn't hurt stall's viability which really is not true at least on the most basic level. Look at dodmen's Hikari's and Disenchanted 's stall teams. Out of the 18 combined stall slots over the past few weeks in SPL they all basically lose to a slightly prepared CM Alakazam sweep with the sole exception of Mega Aerodactyl. And while certainly Mega Aerodactyl is a great response to Alakazam because Pursuit, it is not such a staple that I would say stall is unaffected by it.
Calcs against common stall Pokemon
+1 252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 242-286 (61.4 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Umbreon does not actually OHKO back)
+1 252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Slowking: 206-244 (52.4 - 62%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Alakazam Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 254-300 (83.5 - 98.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(and let's be honest, everyone is running creep on their Sableye, especially for a stall team)
+1 252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 364-430 (50.9 - 60.2%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(I am 99% sure dodmen was not even using max defense Blissey)
Another version of dodmen's stall team can be destroyed despite having an otherwise favorable or at the very least playable matchup. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-331441687
I understand CM Alakazam, particularly with Life Orb, is an extremely uncommon set. But it is not so uncommon I am prepared to just say GG when I see it and forfeit those games. And even if that was the case - such as for threats like certain Haxorus sets and the now RU but very underrated Abomasnow that destroy stall - nobody is saying these threats are not gigantic threats to the stall playstyle, indeed that is the opposite of reality.
Since Alakazam obviously adds nothing to stall on the first level (you cannot fit Alakazam on a stall team) and its second level is unclear (I guess its possible that Alakazam discourages the use of certain sweepers which threaten stall but this is very difficult to analyze) I would definitely disagree and say stall has declined somewhat because of Alakazam (not to the point I'm asking for a suspect test).
The claim that Gyarados hurts stall though I'm not as sold on because as newfren pointed out Gyarados does have a place on stall team. However there is no required stall staple (like the mentioned Heal Bell user) that can beat Gyarados so it obviously poses a big offensive threat to stall still. Interestingly defensive Gyarados is a usable (but not good) CM Alakazam check so there is that to use I guess. I can see it eclipsing Alomomola on some builds since we have a few good Wishers in UU.
Sam although I agree with most of your post I can't help but get the feeling you are saying Alakazam doesn't hurt stall's viability which really is not true at least on the most basic level. Look at dodmen's Hikari's and Disenchanted 's stall teams. Out of the 18 combined stall slots over the past few weeks in SPL they all basically lose to a slightly prepared CM Alakazam sweep with the sole exception of Mega Aerodactyl. And while certainly Mega Aerodactyl is a great response to Alakazam because Pursuit, it is not such a staple that I would say stall is unaffected by it.
Calcs against common stall Pokemon
+1 252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 242-286 (61.4 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Umbreon does not actually OHKO back)
+1 252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Slowking: 206-244 (52.4 - 62%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Alakazam Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 254-300 (83.5 - 98.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(and let's be honest, everyone is running creep on their Sableye, especially for a stall team)
+1 252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 364-430 (50.9 - 60.2%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(I am 99% sure dodmen was not even using max defense Blissey)
Another version of dodmen's stall team can be destroyed despite having an otherwise favorable or at the very least playable matchup. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-331441687
I understand CM Alakazam, particularly with Life Orb, is an extremely uncommon set. But it is not so uncommon I am prepared to just say GG when I see it and forfeit those games. And even if that was the case - such as for threats like certain Haxorus sets and the now RU but very underrated Abomasnow that destroy stall - nobody is saying these threats are not gigantic threats to the stall playstyle, indeed that is the opposite of reality.
Since Alakazam obviously adds nothing to stall on the first level (you cannot fit Alakazam on a stall team) and its second level is unclear (I guess its possible that Alakazam discourages the use of certain sweepers which threaten stall but this is very difficult to analyze) I would definitely disagree and say stall has declined somewhat because of Alakazam (not to the point I'm asking for a suspect test).
The claim that Gyarados hurts stall though I'm not as sold on because as newfren pointed out Gyarados does have a place on stall team. However there is no required stall staple (like the mentioned Heal Bell user) that can beat Gyarados so it obviously poses a big offensive threat to stall still. Interestingly defensive Gyarados is a usable (but not good) CM Alakazam check so there is that to use I guess. I can see it eclipsing Alomomola on some builds since we have a few good Wishers in UU.
According to that new pokemon broadcast, we will be able to trade pokemon from gen 1 to the current gen (or Pokemon SM what ever he meant). This does allow certain pokemon to have new moves in the current generation. For example: Machamp can now legally have fissure and Hitmonlee can now legally have metronome. I'll be going through these to see if anything gets anything worth while in UU. Also rip any tiers that allow 1HKO moves.
Edit: Blissey now learns Tri Attack and has serene grace soo...
Edit: Blissey now learns Tri Attack and has serene grace soo...
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So...no tiers, because OHKO Clause is a Smogon-wide clause. Hold your Ponyta, nothing's going to break the metagame.
I took a quick look, there isn't much that I found to be too interesting. I'm going to keep this stuff in a hide tag simply because it's all speculation. It's hard to definitively say what's going to get what outside of the original 151 Pokemon. Yes, TMs can be passed to offspring, but it all comes down to whether or not Game Freak thinks such a Pokemon can learn that TM via an Egg move.
Again, rampant speculation, and nothing to get too hyped about. At the end of the day, we really need to wait and see what we're getting for new Pokemon / tutor moves / TMs (if these change at all), and then let the tiering sort itself out. Until then, I don't think open speculation is overly welcome, as it distracts from the metagame we have right now.
EDIT: Snorlax already gets Self-Destruct
EDIT 2: Aerodactyl already gets Sky Attack. Maybe I should fact check more...
Bubblebeam Nidoking / Nidoqueen
These two already got Surf, which outdamages Sheer Force Bubble Beam by a slight margin.
Submission Mega-Blastoise (Snorlax gets it too)
Submission gives Mega-Blastoise another move to get around stuff like Blissey and Snorlax, but at the cost of its HP. It's barely an upgrade on Brick Break however, so I can't see it being of much use. Snorlax might be able to get some mileage out of it thanks to its immense bulk (doesn't mind Rest), but it's hardly an upgrade over Fire Punch. Pass.
Tri-Attack Alakazam
Not really worth noting, just thought it was kind of cool.
Sky Attack Zapdos / Moltres /Mega-Aerodactyl
Again, kind of neat, but kind of gimmicky. Moltres has a base 100 Attack stat sitting in the wings (eh?) and could use a Power Herb to get that immense 1st-Turn power much like Hawlucha did in early XYUU.It would be boosted by MAero's Tough Claws, but I can't see the charge turn being worth it. Zapdos rarely uses Drill Peck, I doubt it'll have use for Sky Attack
Self-Destruct Snorlax makes a triumphant return :]
This one's the cool one, as it gives Snorlax the last-ditch move to blow through an opponent. It might lead to more CB Snorlax, as it assumes a role similar to that of CB Metagross in DPP OU (mind you, not nearly as terrifying). Good for punching holes through defensively sound Pokemon, giving a teammate the chance at a sweep. Also makes running Damp Swampert a hell of an idea. I just tossed a couple calculations, really hope the "boom mechanics" from DPP come back.
252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 397-468 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 366-432 (86.5 - 102.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 313-369 (77.4 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Salamence: 268-316 (68.1 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
These two already got Surf, which outdamages Sheer Force Bubble Beam by a slight margin.
Submission Mega-Blastoise (Snorlax gets it too)
Submission gives Mega-Blastoise another move to get around stuff like Blissey and Snorlax, but at the cost of its HP. It's barely an upgrade on Brick Break however, so I can't see it being of much use. Snorlax might be able to get some mileage out of it thanks to its immense bulk (doesn't mind Rest), but it's hardly an upgrade over Fire Punch. Pass.
Tri-Attack Alakazam
Not really worth noting, just thought it was kind of cool.
Sky Attack Zapdos / Moltres /
Again, kind of neat, but kind of gimmicky. Moltres has a base 100 Attack stat sitting in the wings (eh?) and could use a Power Herb to get that immense 1st-Turn power much like Hawlucha did in early XYUU.
This one's the cool one, as it gives Snorlax the last-ditch move to blow through an opponent. It might lead to more CB Snorlax, as it assumes a role similar to that of CB Metagross in DPP OU (mind you, not nearly as terrifying). Good for punching holes through defensively sound Pokemon, giving a teammate the chance at a sweep. Also makes running Damp Swampert a hell of an idea. I just tossed a couple calculations, really hope the "boom mechanics" from DPP come back.
252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 397-468 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 366-432 (86.5 - 102.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 313-369 (77.4 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Self-Destruct vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Salamence: 268-316 (68.1 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Again, rampant speculation, and nothing to get too hyped about. At the end of the day, we really need to wait and see what we're getting for new Pokemon / tutor moves / TMs (if these change at all), and then let the tiering sort itself out. Until then, I don't think open speculation is overly welcome, as it distracts from the metagame we have right now.
EDIT: Snorlax already gets Self-Destruct
EDIT 2: Aerodactyl already gets Sky Attack. Maybe I should fact check more...
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