-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Metagame np: PU Stage 6 - Spread Crustle Across The Block
- Thread starter Magnemite
- Start date
- Status
RIP Dundies flagship mon...
Seriously though I think the meta is going to suffer more from losing Pelipper rather than gaining Banette as PU lost a really good Defogger for balance teams and Banette faces a lot of competition in my opinion as I would rather use Dusknoir for an "offensive" Ghost type.
To me, Banette is kinda like a more offensive, MUCH frailer Dusknoir. On one hand, it has good 115/83 mixed offenses, and has some useful moves as well, such as Sucker Punch, Thunderbolt, Dazzling Gleam, Psychic, Knock Off, and Gunk Shot. Insomnia is also a decent ability to have to neutralize Sleep Powder, but Cursed Body can potentially screw something up by disabling a move. Plus, it has some useful status moves if it needs them, like Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, Destiny Bond, Trick, and Thunder Wave, so it certainly has variety.
On the other hand, its low Speed and frailty will be holding it back severely, since base 65 Speed means nearly everything offensive can threaten it, 64/65/63 defenses just suck, and its defensive typing is very lacking in resistances and leaves it weak to Dark-type moves, and you don't ever want to be weak to Pawniard.
But I still think Banette will have a niche in the metagame, possibly as a 3 attack + status attacker or maybe a full-on wallbreaker. Possibly a Scarf user with Trick? Maybe its variety could save it from mediocrity, who knows.
Also Rest In Spaghetti, Pelipper. Never forgetti.
On the other hand, its low Speed and frailty will be holding it back severely, since base 65 Speed means nearly everything offensive can threaten it, 64/65/63 defenses just suck, and its defensive typing is very lacking in resistances and leaves it weak to Dark-type moves, and you don't ever want to be weak to Pawniard.
But I still think Banette will have a niche in the metagame, possibly as a 3 attack + status attacker or maybe a full-on wallbreaker. Possibly a Scarf user with Trick? Maybe its variety could save it from mediocrity, who knows.
Also Rest In Spaghetti, Pelipper. Never forgetti.
the main problem with banette is that both misdreavus and dusknoir are usually better options. I've looked at its movepool and this set seems to be the best it can do:
Banette @ Life Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch / Thunder Wave
this set takes advantage of its niches over dusknoir which are much stronger stab, higher speed, and knock off. it's still worse because it's really frail and doesn't have as good of coverage. i've seen special sets theorized but there's no reason to use them over misdreavus. it also gets other cool moves like taunt, wisp, gunk shot, dbond, trick, and toxic.
Banette @ Life Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch / Thunder Wave
this set takes advantage of its niches over dusknoir which are much stronger stab, higher speed, and knock off. it's still worse because it's really frail and doesn't have as good of coverage. i've seen special sets theorized but there's no reason to use them over misdreavus. it also gets other cool moves like taunt, wisp, gunk shot, dbond, trick, and toxic.
the main problem with banette is that both misdreavus and dusknoir are usually better options. I've looked at its movepool and this set seems to be the best it can do:
Banette @ Life Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch / Thunder Wave
this set takes advantage of its niches over dusknoir which are much stronger stab, higher speed, and knock off. it's still worse because it's really frail and doesn't have as good of coverage. i've seen special sets theorized but there's no reason to use them over misdreavus. it also gets other cool moves like taunt, wisp, gunk shot, dbond, trick, and toxic.
Nice post Magnemite.
I think Gunk Shot will be standard. It's Banette's hardest hitting move and has great coverage, could probably be slashed there with Shadow Claw.
also Life Orb HP Fighting will be nice since it OHKOs Pawn on the switch without any SpA investment.
my take:
Banette @ Life Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Claw/Gunk Shot
- Shadow Sneak
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch / HP Fighting / Will-o-Wisp / Pursuit
Choice Scarf may be usable since it outspeeds Zebstrika, but it's pretty weak (same power as Scarf Mime).
Banette will be a niche wallbreaker that provides priority to teams that need it, but I doubt it will be common or even as good as Dusknoir.
Last edited:
why would you not use shadow claw when strong stab is its main niche? gunk shot is nice for tangela and other random things but not using shadow claw is kinda silly. i get that gunk shot is stronger but it's innaccurate and has much worse neutral coverage (think like rock types, stunfisk, etc)
Well, Knock Off already covers much of what Shadow Claw covers with only a tiny bit less power. I get that using 2 Knock Offs in a row is less than Knock Off + Shadow Claw though, but I don't think that's too big of a deal to miss out on. Gunk Shot hits stuff like Stoutland, Tangela, Clefairy, Mightyena, and Vullaby after you Knock it off so it's not that niche even if Shadow Claw would probably be the better option
EDIT: Pursuit looks fantastic
Nice post Magnemite.
I think Gunk Shot will be standard. It's Banette's hardest hitting move and has great coverage, could probably be slashed there with Shadow Claw.
also Life Orb HP Fighting will be nice since it OHKOs Pawn on the switch without any SpA investment.
my take:
Banette @ Life Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Gunk Shot/Shadow Claw
- Shadow Sneak
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch / HP Fighting / Will-o-Wisp
Choice Scarf may be usable since it outspeeds Zebstrika, but it's pretty weak (same power as Scarf Mime).
Banette will be a niche wallbreaker that provides priority to teams that need it, but I doubt it will be common or even as good as Dusknoir.
I think Pursuit may find it's place on some sets as it deals tons of damage to things such as Zebstrika and Floatzel(I know it can carry Baton Pass) which often don't carry a non attacking move and a few life orb recoils can put them into CB Sucker Range
252+ Atk Choice Band Banette Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 192-226 (65.9 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Banette Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Floatzel: 211-249 (67.8 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Banette Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mr. Mime: 186-219 (84.1 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Banette Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chatot: 246-290 (83.9 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Banette Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dodrio: 175-207 (67 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
as a few relevant mons that like to pack only attacking moves
252+ Atk Choice Band Banette Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Floatzel: 211-249 (67.8 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Banette Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mr. Mime: 186-219 (84.1 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Banette Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chatot: 246-290 (83.9 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Banette Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dodrio: 175-207 (67 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
as a few relevant mons that like to pack only attacking moves
I don't think Gunk Shot is really all that manditory on Banette unless you really hate defensive Tangela and Shadow Claw 2HKOes Clefairy after it knocks off its Eviolite and Mime dies to Sneak after rocks. Mixed Banette is an okay lure as it does have access to Hidden Power plus you can pick off Vullaby switching in and hitting it with Knock Off and Thunderbolt to finish it off. But moving on, with Pelipper being gone and hazard removal being scarce as it is spike stack and webs will be a bigger nuiscance to deal with. Also with Pelipper leaving, some Pokemon such as Monferno and Machoke one less check to deal with and made Thunder Punch a bit less manditory to use plus does give something like Lumineon a small chance to shine as it can check Monferno decently while providing Defog support and a Water immunity, but its lack of recovery does hinder it a lot.
Last edited:
hey so banette is really weak, a lot weaker than i thought:
252+ Atk Life Orb Banette Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 121-144 (28.6 - 34.1%) -- 98.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
while dusknoir has less attack and no strong stab options at least it has great coverage to hit a lot of things super effectively. the main niche i thought about when banette dropped was being a decent wallbreaker, but it struggles to do much damage to anything with any sort of bulk investment that isn't weak to ghost, and it's also really frail, which is terrible because it's slow and misdreavus has basically all of the utility banette has while being faster and actually bulky. it's still probably viable, but i don't really see it being too far above D rank.
252+ Atk Life Orb Banette Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 121-144 (28.6 - 34.1%) -- 98.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
while dusknoir has less attack and no strong stab options at least it has great coverage to hit a lot of things super effectively. the main niche i thought about when banette dropped was being a decent wallbreaker, but it struggles to do much damage to anything with any sort of bulk investment that isn't weak to ghost, and it's also really frail, which is terrible because it's slow and misdreavus has basically all of the utility banette has while being faster and actually bulky. it's still probably viable, but i don't really see it being too far above D rank.
Okay, so lets have some real talk on this mon as I think there is a lot that is misunderstood about this mon by both new and old players. My point in this post is to not talk about how viable it is, but rather show people that it can be considered viable at some level, and to dispel this taboo we have around it.
Before I get too deep into things, I want to talk about sets. The most common I see are choiced sets with things like Retaliate and they try to run it as a revenge killing nuke. I want to say that both Choiced Slaking and Retaliate on it are BAD. So what should you use instead? Well glad you asked.
This has been the set I've been running now and I find it the best way to play it - http://pastebin.com/7fD1cC4i
Encore and Silk Scarf are the two big stand outs on this set. By not going choiced it it opens you up to switch coverage to hit things like Golem and Probopass while also freeing you to run encore which is vital to the set. What encore lets you do is it deals with a large majority of set up and substitute mons. Things like Pawniard, SubSD Bouf, SD Monferno, CM Duosion, and basically any set up sweeper who is slower then it with the exception of things like Fraxure and Gorebyss who boost their speed during Slakings Truant. One of the most common things I hear about this mon is "It's set up fodder" when the scope of mons that set up on it is a lot lower then people give it credit for. Not all set up mons can actually set up on it.
Okay so moving on, a lot of people will cite the fact that we have better normal types such as Stoutland, Dodrio, Bouf, and even Ursaring. And they're not wrong. Slaking has a lot of down sides that comes with running them that these top tier mons do not have. So why pick Slaking? A very good question so let me explain.
The two big reasons you'd use Slaking over the likes of Stoutland is sheer speed and bulk. And these are huge. Sitting at a respectable 100 speed and an amazing 150/100/65 bulk this thing is both speedy and bulky. No seriously, this thing will chew the hit of most wall breakers in the tier, ranging from CB Dodrio Brave Bird, Simisage Super Power, and even take a CB Head Charge from a Bouf. All of which things like Stoutland can't. And it's not even that it can live these moves, it also can take smaller hits from most of the common normal resists such as Golem, Probopass, Metand, and Pawniard so that way it can wait out the Truant and hit back with its coverage. Being able to take these hits makes is an effective offensive check to most offensive mons in the tier. Things like Floatzel finding itself in a 1v1 have to think "Is getting off 65-70% with my specs hydro/ 38-45% with CB Waterfall worth dying for?" and it puts almost every offensive mon in the tier in this exact same spot unless they're running Focus Blast coverage like Mr. Mime or Raichu.
And that's just the up sides to its bulk, it's also the second fastest normal type in the tier right below Dodrio.
252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 262-309 (59.4 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 281-333 (63.7 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 345-406 (78.2 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Slaking: 288-339 (65.3 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 169-199 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Golem Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 169-201 (38.3 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Probopass Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Slaking: 142-168 (32.1 - 38%) -- 95.2% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Metang Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 112-133 (25.3 - 30.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 109-129 (24.7 - 29.2%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 281-333 (63.7 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Bouffalant Head Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 345-406 (78.2 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Slaking: 288-339 (65.3 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 169-199 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Golem Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 169-201 (38.3 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Probopass Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Slaking: 142-168 (32.1 - 38%) -- 95.2% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Metang Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 112-133 (25.3 - 30.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Slaking: 109-129 (24.7 - 29.2%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO
Okay so this is all well and good, but if it's as good as I'm saying then why isn't everyone using it? Well, it isn't all sunshine and rainbows for Slaking. Truant comes with some huge downsides. Things like Protect completely wall it out, it does make you extremely weak to the set up sweepers who can set up on it, it's not splashable, it's hard to use, and you have to build around it. It's high risk for moderate gain. But my point with this post isn't to show how good it is or isn't, but rather to try to dispel this taboo we have on it. Currently any talk of Slaking will be shut down and often times with inaccurate claims about it. After using it this past week I've had a blast using it and it's super fun to use and I think its reputation is worse then the mon actually is. I'll leave a team at the bottom of the post that I have been using if you just want to grab a slaking team to test it out. Over all tho I don't think this is the Ambipom of PU. There are thing it does have going for it even if they aren't as clear at first, after using it for a week I found myself loving the mon and I really want to show off, even if it's not very good, that it isn't something that should be a taboo subject.
http://pastebin.com/bWwcS3pE
Last edited:
Although it may technically have a niche, ultimately it isn't worth using. I remember having conversations with others before with it, and even with encore, providing a free turn is so huge that slaking often becomes a win condition for the opposing team meaning you might not want to switch it in (whether a set up sweeper or a heavy hitter). That is situational but the other normal types you mentioned are much more reliable. The only saving factor is its decent bulk so you can live hits as you said, but if it's taken some damage from hazards/etc then it could be in range of boosted hits, and you have to play perfectly to keep your checks healthy. Against defensive teams it might not be too bad since they don't have too many ways to abuse it (roselia wouldn't want to spike on it and of course slow set up sweepers wouldn't try to set up) but CB stout or bouff with pursuit can also destroy them.
It certainly isn't the bottom of the barrel, but I can't say it's as good as the godly CB analytic watchog.
It certainly isn't the bottom of the barrel, but I can't say it's as good as the godly CB analytic watchog.
We have lost yet another flipping hazard remover... sigh.
Well now for teams that need a defogger and a fighting resist can't go to peli. well I guess SWANNA will have to do
Okay so this isn't as bad as I make it out to be. With the meta shifting to something more offensive Swanna isn't bad it hits Machoke (which I feel is going to S soon just a feeling though and grass-types as well) It is still going to be pitiful defensively but you can't win them all.
Well now for teams that need a defogger and a fighting resist can't go to peli. well I guess SWANNA will have to do
Okay so this isn't as bad as I make it out to be. With the meta shifting to something more offensive Swanna isn't bad it hits Machoke (which I feel is going to S soon just a feeling though and grass-types as well) It is still going to be pitiful defensively but you can't win them all.
So now that Pelipper has gone we're undoubtedly going to see tons of Machoke running around and I wanted to know where we stand on Dynamicpunch. It allows players of lower skill to beat players of higher skill on the flip of a coin. If players want to run a No Guard set with a high base power move that does not give defense drops like Close Combat, Cross Chop is a great alternative (same base power, same PP as D-Punch). With such an alternative available, in my opinion there seems no reason not to at least discuss a ban of D-Punch as it is only encouraging luck based, non-competitive situations.
why cross chop? dp gives you free confusion,which is better than increased crit ratio
There is literally no reason to not run Dpunch on the no guard set as it is pretty much the only reason to run no guard over guts. Also hazard stack just got a lot better, between eggy being banned making rose even better than it was and losing one of the most reliable defogger in the tier hazard stack gains a ton of ground and is most likely to become the best archetype in the tier if I had to guess. I think we are gonna see a usage rise in vullaby by quite a lot as it fills the role of a phys def defogger quite well and can certainly find its way onto a lot of teams that would have preferred peli. Also machoke and monferno did get a little better as now neither has any reason to run Tpunch freeing up their coverage and removing one check from two of the best mons in the tier.
Dpunch will not be banned I can almost promise you that, smogon generally refuses to preform complex bans such as banning a move/ability. Chatter was banned because only one mon really utilized it and there were no immunities outside of soundproof, however Dpunch is not abused by only one mon and there are switchins that are immune purely on typing. I would agree that dpunch sucks but I highly doubt it will get banned.
That may or may not be the case but I wanted to open the discussion because it definitely won't get banned if no one talks about it. And from reading previous threads I know a number of people feel the same way as I do - including yourself going by what you say in your last sentence.
It's not that we don't want to, it's that it simply goes against a banning policy and won't happen regardless of how much it would improve the meta. Unless SS makes some sort of policy change or allowance, we ban Machoke or we keep Machoke but that's it. Thisbemyalt was right, chatter was only acceptable because it's a signature move, and Dpunch has also been around for so long that having not banned it up until now is seen as an issue. I won't go through the whole reasoning, but it's not really in our hands.
throwing in my 2 cents for a moment:
A: no other mon uses dynamicpunch and
B: more importantly, if they did it would only add to the overall hax factor
given that this is a move which more or less exists to cause hax (as was mentioned, Machoke can get the same base power with cross chop, or of course it can go Guts), why not ban it outright?
A: no other mon uses dynamicpunch and
B: more importantly, if they did it would only add to the overall hax factor
given that this is a move which more or less exists to cause hax (as was mentioned, Machoke can get the same base power with cross chop, or of course it can go Guts), why not ban it outright?
Apparently everyone here is going crazy about Machoke but no one has been able to provide a single articulated argument about it being broken yet, which is reasonable as the stage is relatively new but still, it would be great if people could back up your words with some well thought facts. So for now I'm just going to provide arguments in favour of not suspecting Machoke : D! or at least not until the next big tier shift happens. Also Dynamic Punch isn't getting banned because of reasons stated above.
Before going into the main arguments, I wanted to say that Pelipper was IN NO WAY a reliable counter to Machoke, especially before having scout its moveslots, which is quite hard to do as Machoke is going to spam its Fighting-type STAB and Knock Off most of the time. This because of Machoke's access to Thunder Punch, which obliterated Pelipper. Secondly, to be fully able to stop Machoke, Pelipper not only had to pray that it didn't run Thunder Punch, but it also had to not have Stealth Rock on its side of the field, otherwise it couldn't switch into it, given it is faster and can't effectively recover up health via Roost, as it loses its Flying-type, while Air Slash doesn't 2HKO(Hurricane is kind of meh on defensive Pelipper) and at the same time it also has to pray to not get self-hit in the process. So, Pelipper gone doesn't make Machoke much better, except for the bulky RestTalk set, which isn't that unhealthy anyway. It doesn't make Machoke better also because Thunder Punch will still be viable and usable, as it comes in hand against other Water-types, and Flying-types, as you usually don't want to spend many Dynamic Punch / Close Combat PPs + Close Combat defense drop is annoying. Ice Punch isn't useful against Water-types but Grass-types instead, so Thunder Punch still isn't fully outclassed, it's just that now Thunder Punch isn't a must anymore.
Ok so, Machoke is quite a pain in the ass, I agree, and it can be annoying as much as you want especially when running Dynamic Punch, but in my opinion it isn't busted for a series of reasons. The Dynamic Punch set, which is the more unhealthy, and arguably the focus of the discussion on whether Machoke should go or not, even though it can break through some counters with confusion, it also has a few more checks the Guts one doesn't have, for example burn inducers, mainly Ghost-types, so bringing the Dynamic Punch variant isn't going to benefit Machoke on both sides of the coin. Also, despite being bulky, Machoke still doesn't find many switch-in opportunities due to still being 2HKO'd by most offensive threats, and its typing being underwhelming due to only having a resist against Dark-types, which can still cripple it with Knock Off or deal high damage to hit with coverage options such as Play Rough by Mightyena. Often, even when sent after slow VoltTurn or as a revengekiller, its mediocre Speed and aforementioned not great typing leave it prone to KOing the target but being left with not an high amount of HP(usually low) and make it not optimal in the long run(a low HP Machoke is useless in most cases). That said, we still don't know well how Pelipper going will affect the tier and if new meta trends will be favour Machoke, so I'd wait before jumping to conclusions. Also Machoke isn't unhealthy in every situation, for example it can provide a soft check to many offensive threats, such as Ice- and Rock-types while still not being overly threatening after having dealt with them. Something that scares me for example is Rock-type coverage, which despite being underrated right now, it's extremely hard to switch into by a large portion of the metagame, and Machoke going won't help dealing with that at all, especially with the new big shift where stuff such as Crustle might drop. So yeah, I'd be up for a Machoke suspect only in case Poliwrath comes back with the next shift, as Poliwrath will be a more than decent and healthy replacement to it.
Before going into the main arguments, I wanted to say that Pelipper was IN NO WAY a reliable counter to Machoke, especially before having scout its moveslots, which is quite hard to do as Machoke is going to spam its Fighting-type STAB and Knock Off most of the time. This because of Machoke's access to Thunder Punch, which obliterated Pelipper. Secondly, to be fully able to stop Machoke, Pelipper not only had to pray that it didn't run Thunder Punch, but it also had to not have Stealth Rock on its side of the field, otherwise it couldn't switch into it, given it is faster and can't effectively recover up health via Roost, as it loses its Flying-type, while Air Slash doesn't 2HKO(Hurricane is kind of meh on defensive Pelipper) and at the same time it also has to pray to not get self-hit in the process. So, Pelipper gone doesn't make Machoke much better, except for the bulky RestTalk set, which isn't that unhealthy anyway. It doesn't make Machoke better also because Thunder Punch will still be viable and usable, as it comes in hand against other Water-types, and Flying-types, as you usually don't want to spend many Dynamic Punch / Close Combat PPs + Close Combat defense drop is annoying. Ice Punch isn't useful against Water-types but Grass-types instead, so Thunder Punch still isn't fully outclassed, it's just that now Thunder Punch isn't a must anymore.
Ok so, Machoke is quite a pain in the ass, I agree, and it can be annoying as much as you want especially when running Dynamic Punch, but in my opinion it isn't busted for a series of reasons. The Dynamic Punch set, which is the more unhealthy, and arguably the focus of the discussion on whether Machoke should go or not, even though it can break through some counters with confusion, it also has a few more checks the Guts one doesn't have, for example burn inducers, mainly Ghost-types, so bringing the Dynamic Punch variant isn't going to benefit Machoke on both sides of the coin. Also, despite being bulky, Machoke still doesn't find many switch-in opportunities due to still being 2HKO'd by most offensive threats, and its typing being underwhelming due to only having a resist against Dark-types, which can still cripple it with Knock Off or deal high damage to hit with coverage options such as Play Rough by Mightyena. Often, even when sent after slow VoltTurn or as a revengekiller, its mediocre Speed and aforementioned not great typing leave it prone to KOing the target but being left with not an high amount of HP(usually low) and make it not optimal in the long run(a low HP Machoke is useless in most cases). That said, we still don't know well how Pelipper going will affect the tier and if new meta trends will be favour Machoke, so I'd wait before jumping to conclusions. Also Machoke isn't unhealthy in every situation, for example it can provide a soft check to many offensive threats, such as Ice- and Rock-types while still not being overly threatening after having dealt with them. Something that scares me for example is Rock-type coverage, which despite being underrated right now, it's extremely hard to switch into by a large portion of the metagame, and Machoke going won't help dealing with that at all, especially with the new big shift where stuff such as Crustle might drop. So yeah, I'd be up for a Machoke suspect only in case Poliwrath comes back with the next shift, as Poliwrath will be a more than decent and healthy replacement to it.
Thanks a lot for clarifying! It's such a shame because it really does take skill completely out of certain situations making the game less competitive but if your hands are tied for now then that's that.
Thanks for the input! I was in no way arguing that Machoke was ban-worthy in terms of how good it is and I know that Pelipper was not a reliable counter. I was arguing that Dynamicpunch is uncompetitive and bad for the game.
- Status