Metagame NP: RU Stage 1: Dog Days Are Over / Hello Kitty

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Mew2

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If you ask me, I would rather suggest complex bans (Froslass + Doublade, Shuckle + Doublade) than ban the suspect test. Or, why do we not just test Doublade? Even though we all know what it does, we also know that it is unlikely going to be put down soon unless you have UBER AWESOME SKILL (And also that the opponent does not). I have written a lot on this subject and I find it to be very subjective, but it is what I saw of RU in this ladder thingy. Most of it says that I should vote for the ban on Froslass, but I will not. Instead, I would like you people to read this, agree or disagree, and vote. I am just leaving the complex bans proposal in case someone seems to agree with me.
Doublade + Froslass/ Shuckle isn't the problem, doublade is not a difficult pokemon to wear down especially with knock off spam and without reliable recovery. The real problem about Froslass and Shuckle is the offensive pressure they bring. Froslass brings early game spikes and forces 50/50 in pretty much every match while preventing hazards removal like you mentioned. As a Shuckle fan I agree that it is almost imposible to prevent Sticky web and/or Stealth rocks and the core he forms with Doublade is pretty powerful but you can't ban a core it looks pretty... dumb. Tell me if this sounds like a good idea:

Deoxys-D in a HO team was broken back in 5th gen. Lets ban the combination of Deoxys-D and Gengar so people can spin with tentacruel or forretress vs HO teams using Deoxys

Sounds like a good idea? No, people will adapt and change Gengar with something, in other words, the real problem isn't the core but the pokemon.
 
I wanna post a cool set which destroys balance and other defensive teams with the right prediction:


Sawk (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake / Poison Jab
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch / Poison Jab

Sawk CB is an insane wallbreaker which have a very limited close counters defensively, this is because I decided to use Jolly Sawk to outrun stuff like Hitmonlee so still does well vs offensive teams - Adamant is way too slower for me tbh but if you need a pure wallbreaker you still can use Adamant over Jolly. Their defensive counters mostly are physically defensive spiritomb which still can lose at mid-games after their leftovers are removed and physically defensive aromatisse / granbull (they still loses if Poison Jab).

252 Atk Choice Band Sawk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 146-172 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 135-161 (41.9 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Only thing is that HJK LO Reckless Lee is stronger than CC CB Sawk against the same target but CC is way more reliable than HJK, hits _enough_ hard while Sawk is able to kill some mons that Lee loses to them usually like Weezing, Gligar or Amoonguss; still is faster with a Jolly nature so here definitely a niche wallbreaker which can be used/paired over/with Hitmonlee to handle certain threats.

Also, on Sticky Web is great :]
 
Lee can use CC too, if reliability is a concern. One of Sawk's niche over Hitmonlee is definitely access to Ice Punch which allows it to get past Gligar. Mold Breaker EQ beating Weezing is nice too.
 
Lee can use CC too, if reliability is a concern. One of Sawk's niche over Hitmonlee is definitely access to Ice Punch which allows it to get past Gligar. Mold Breaker EQ beating Weezing is nice too.
But the loss of power is huge over +20% does more HJK boosted than CC for 10% chance to miss.

And LO Adamant CC Lee is still weaker than Sawk CB CC, obviously Lee is way better such overall mon because priority, can use unburden, the ability to switch moves while still hits really hard without using a choice band AND RAPID SPIN.

But compared like wallbreaker Sawk CB is slightly superior.
 
HAY GUISE
I think the objective of the Suspect Ladder was blablablabla
no

Doublade doesnt make the archetypes broken. Shuckle can use offenaive jellicent and banette mwga for the same role and froslass can use banette mega (which i prefer)

also lol suggesting complex bans on something as ez as this
 

alexwolf

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[Obligatory Froslass post]

As many people i didn't face many Froaslass teams, however i used one myself and the argument that it puts too much pressure to anything not named Web offense is 100% true. Guaranteed two layers of Spikes against defensive or semi-defensive teams, or one layer of Spikes and one kill is too good when combined with Froslass ability to keep those hazards up as long as she is alive, allowing her teammates to apply immense offensive pressure. Doublade being a great Pokemon in RU that checks most physical sweepers, spinblocks, and can sweep too helps a lot Froslass too, making sure that outside of Defog users Spikes will stay up. And even when considering Defog users, the only great one in RU is Gligar, which can be taken advantage of easily by Braviary, or shut down by Taunt users such as Mega Banette, Cobalion, and Drapion. Of course Gligar can still find many chances to use Defog with its titanic physical bulk and can use Toxic to cripple Braviary switch-ins and not give the +2 Atk boost, but prediction goes both way and the opponent can bring in a special attacker as Gligar uses Toxic, and immediately threaten the team with strong special attacks and regain momentum.

In general, Froslass's support is too easy to provide, too effective, and too hard to shut down, as there are many great and viable ways to protect Spikes or punish the opponent for getting rid of them, such as Doublade, Mega Banette, fast Taunt users, and Braviary.

For those reasons, i will vote to ban Froslass for her broken supporting abilities.

After Froslass leaves i expect Webs offense to be much more manageable, as people will have more room to prepare for such teams without also having to prepare for Froslass. Sticky Web is great no doubt, but RU has enough good Spin and Defog users to mitigate its effect to a manageable extend, and the fact that Shuckle has zero offensive presence is a huge flaw that can easily be taken advantage of. Furthermore, most defensive Pokemon don't mind the Speed drop when facing offensive Pokemon, and offensive teams can resort to Flying Pokemon or Levitate users if they can't get rid of Sticky Web, such as Moltres, Yanmega, Braviary, and Fletchinder, all great RU Pokemon, in addition to priority, offensive pressure (to limit Shuckle to only one hazard), and Xatu. Of course Shuckle could still end up being problematic, all i am saying is that it's in no way in the same league as Froslass, who is obviously broken in my eyes.

Oh, and Fletchinder is so fun to use atm, fucks up most kinds of offensive teams big time, as long as you have a good plan to deal with Rhyperior and Water-types (Jolteon is not a problem, it gets OHKOed by +2 Acro after two SR rounds). Offensive Xatu with Psychic / Heat Wave / Grass Knot / U-turn is a decent teammate, sometimes being able to lure and weaken / KO Rhyperior and Water types, and making sure SR stays of the field as long as its needed.
 
To add on to what AlexWolf said about Fletchinder, I found it to be an extremely easy Pokemon to use. Rhyperior really isn't all that hard to deal with, as a correctly timed Will-O-Wisp can weaken it and make it much easier to switch into. I also found Gligar to be an amazing Pokemon if you're running a more balanced team (such as myself), as it not only is almost guaranteed to get off a Defog thanks to its great bulk and many switch-in opportunites, but it can also set up Stealth Rock, killing two birds with one stone. I also found that the ancient Regenerator core of SlowMoon to be EXTREMELY effective on the ladder, as with Assault Vest Slowking, this core no longer fears the likes of Moltres anymore. Finally, I used an extremely under-rated wallbreaker (and even cleaner if Fletch goes down early-game) in Choice Band Durant, who did great damage with Hustle. It also stopped Shuckle well, limiting it to only one hazard (and could even completely stop it if I flinched it ^.^)

I would share my team here, as it got me #8 on the ladder and is pretty easy to get reqs with, but I'll probably RMT it eventually so I won't for now :o
 

Raiza

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I think that Fletchlinder is near to be good in RU like Talonflame is in Over Used, but still very far to be broken. Fletchlinder is a really good revengekiller in the Rarely Used tier and it can be a really good late-game sweeper or cleaner thanks to its ability, Gale Wings, and his really high base speed for the current tier. The set that gave me most of the problems in the suspect test ladder was the one with roost and will-o-wisp. Fletchlinder is really difficult to check or counter by itself, but if you add WOW to his Set it can be really annoying because some of his counters like Rhyperior can be weakened with a good timing and smart moves. The problem is that Fletchlinder doesnt have a really good movepool and it has to rely on few flying moves to do good damages, the most known is Acrobatics, but you are to remove the item, which is crucial, to deal problems to the opponent, and you can't run a bulky set because you need to add investiments in the Attack if you want a decent fire power, that makes Fletchlinder a pokémon that cant sweep by itself but it needs help and support from the teammates, that's why i don't think he's overpowered.
 

Punchshroom

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I wanna post a cool set which destroys balance and other defensive teams with the right prediction:


Sawk (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake / Poison Jab
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch / Poison Jab

Sawk CB is an insane wallbreaker which have a very limited close counters defensively, this is because I decided to use Jolly Sawk to outrun stuff like Hitmonlee so still does well vs offensive teams - Adamant is way too slower for me tbh but if you need a pure wallbreaker you still can use Adamant over Jolly. Their defensive counters mostly are physically defensive spiritomb which still can lose at mid-games after their leftovers are removed and physically defensive aromatisse / granbull (they still loses if Poison Jab).

252 Atk Choice Band Sawk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 146-172 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 135-161 (41.9 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Only thing is that HJK LO Reckless Lee is stronger than CC CB Sawk against the same target but CC is way more reliable than HJK, hits _enough_ hard while Sawk is able to kill some mons that Lee loses to them usually like Weezing, Gligar or Amoonguss; still is faster with a Jolly nature so here definitely a niche wallbreaker which can be used/paired over/with Hitmonlee to handle certain threats.

Also, on Sticky Web is great :]
Sawk may have marginally better speed, but otherwise I see little reason to use it over Gallade, who replicates Sawk's entire moveset, has additional STAB to wreck shit like Amoonguss and Hitmontop, and possesses much better Special Defense (I'm uncertain the Pursuit resist is worth giving up these traits).
 
This is something I really forgot to talk about, but I discovered what could possibly be a hidden gem for many teams looking to stop Web Offense and Froslass offense with at least decent reliability: Rotom-C

So, I've seen people talk about how Yanmega, Fletchinder, and other Flying / Levitating Pokemon can be devastating for Web Offense teams to face down, but I think Rotom-C is even more dangerous. Just taking the typical Web Offense build that Robert Alfons posted a couple of posts above, look at the switch-ins such a team has. (I'll give you a hint: There are none) Rotom-C, imo, p. much necessitates the use of Magneton or Jolteon on Web Offense teams, as otherwise, you're probably losing a mon every time it comes in. Against Spikes offense, Rotom-C's Scarf set can do some serious work as well. Pair it with Doublade, and this will keep Froslass to a single layer w/ no Destiny Bond (honestly, about the best you can do rn, which is kinda sad) and it revenges just about every offensive threat that Froslass teams use, bar Speed Boost Yanmega (needs to be Timid, or else!) It's one of the reasons I decided to put Jolteon on my Web Offense team since, between it, Braviary, and Doublade, I at least made Rotom-C think about the STAB move it used. I'm a bit surprised I haven't seen Rotom-C more considering how well it fares with and against the common teambuilds right now. Maybe I'm just not viewing it correctly right now, but it kinda seems like Rotom-C is that sort of anti-meta Pokemon right now that offensive teams can use. Thoughts and experiences with and against our favorite little lawn mower?
I've used scarf Rotom-C a bunch on my Froslass HO team and it's a super fun mon. It does work against opposing froslass HO and shuckle HO cause levitate is a fantastic ability in a meta defined by grounded hazards. Plus against stall it can disrupt it a bit by tricking something a scarf and spreading burns with wow. Just by having leaf storm you can deter ground types from switching in so it can grab heaps of momentum with volt-switch.

Great mon, A++.

I've also thrown on a fletchinder because seriously, fuck web offense. It donks hitmonlee and burns doublade, and whatever wallbreakers they have on their team they're probably donked by an acrobatics. There's basically no reason not to run 248 health on this thing cause the only relevant priority user you're actually faster than is banette.

I'm not gonna get reqs cause I hate laddering but it looks like froslass is going to be banned without my help. After that we can do shuckle then maybe have a meta in which I build balance teams again.
 

EonX

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Sawk may have marginally better speed, but otherwise I see little reason to use it over Gallade, who replicates Sawk's entire moveset, has additional STAB to wreck shit like Amoonguss and Hitmontop, and possesses much better Special Defense (I'm uncertain the Pursuit resist is worth giving up these traits).
I think the biggest advantage of Sawk is that it can more easily run Ice Punch to screw over Gligar while still hitting Amoonguss quite hard. Hitmontop is kind of a moot point imo since it lacks reliable recovery, so hitting it with 1 CC early on will allow you to break past it later. That, and I feel Gallade is better at setup sweeping rather than wielding Choice items. The higher Speed also helps Sawk beat out Jolteon after Sticky Web (most Gallades can't due to running Adamant) While Sawk is definitely a bit more niche when compared to Gallade and Hitmonlee, the easy ability to run Ice Punch, Mold Breaker EQ (easy to spam when there are no Flying-types) the higher Speed, and the ability to still have Knock Off gives Sawk enough advantages to be perfectly usable imo.

Also, to come back on the Fletchinder point, I completely agree. Like with many Flying-types and Levitate Pokemon, Fletchinder is really good atm. Priority Acrobatics is really good since it donks Hitmonlee, and handles many offensive threats in general. It even has Will-O-Wisp to cripple some would-be counters, such as Rhyperior, Registeel, and Bronzong. In fact, this is another reason I personally use Alomomola on my own Web Offense team so I have a way to stop it from doing whatever the heck it wants to do.
 
Going to make a quick post about why i voted to ban Froslass.

I have played a lot of games in the last two weeks (around 50 for reqs and other for fun and pure testing) and, as anyone has already said, Froslass is an amazing Support Threat.
We know from past gen experience how dangerous and effective it can be at doing its job thanks to its combination of very high Speed, Ghost typing and access to Spikes, Taunt, Destiny Bond, Thunder Wave, and a STAB move that hits the most common defogger in the tier, Gligar, for 4x SE damage (not to mention its ability, Cursed Body, that while totally luck based is not completely useless and can make Froslass even harder to deal with).
Froslass can set up 1-2 Layers of Spikes AND get a kill with ridicolous ease against a lot of teams as the multiple 50/50s it forces can lead your opponent to play crazily only to see his side of the field being filled with Spikes.
Even if the ladder at the moment is a bit overprepared to it (with a lot of teams using 3-4 checks between faster attackers, priority users, etc.) Froslass can still do its job solidly in the hands of a player who knows what he is doing as the threat of it leading is incredibly useful in the lead match up because most Stealth Rock setters (like Cobalion and Druddigon) and offensive threats in general (Doublade, Jolteon to an extent) can take advantage of the niche Pokemon Froslass has popularized and immediatly lures out, namely Cinccino and Beat Up Ambipom. You don't have to play Froslass as a suicide lead every time because a low health one can also be really useful later in the game to pave the way of a sweeper with its fast Destiny Bond (the fastest in the tier!).
Spikes are very good in the current metagame as most of the tier is grounded and, with a lot of Pokemon capable of forcing switches (think about the newly arrived Jolteon), and late game sweepers like Sharpedo whose checks are usually susceptible to them Froslass teams are incredibly successful and easy to build (not to mention the great spinblockers Mega-Banette and Doublade).

TLDR: Froslass is incredibly effective even if you have ways to stop it, Spikes are super good in this grounded tier and very hard to remove.
 
I-is it too late to get reqs? I could ask my friend to suck his dick for his pc and prob try and get em in time.


nd ye fletch is 2good rite now like not broken good but ykmow rly rly good. Like i like use it on defensive teams rite now cuz it srill maintain defensive presencr woth will l wisp nd prio foost. Like its a mini sableye with rly rly good qays to fuck with offense teams thru pwr acros.

ive prolly talked about in short terms before idk i forget that imo lol
 

Jukain

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Quick bit on why I voted ban:

I didn't really see Froslass that much on the suspect ladder, however it's pretty obvious that Froslass is broken for its supporting capabilities. First of all along with webs it makes the meta hugely hyper offensive, and in any meta I feel like hazard-stacking offensive teams dominating is pretty cancerous. We have a Pokemon here that can set Spikes, spinblock its own Spikes, and eliminate various common Defoggers with its STAB Ice Beam...Froslass is far too good for the RU tier.
 

Shuckleking87

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After being very torn about what way to vote for suspect, I went with not banning the Froslass if I could not justify myself to ban it, though I am fairly certain it will rightfully get the boot. It’s easy to make decisions on what experiences I faced, which probably is not fair and is why there is a fair amount of people voting. From what I’ve seen with the few battles of Froslass (compared to shuckle HO), I was almost always able to either allow only 1 layer or some chip ice beam damage without much consequence (seriously, someone mentioned it before, but scarfed rotom-mow was my last member on my team and probably my mvp, it’s very good), and I had a way to remove hazards, so I guess froslass wasn’t much of a problem, even with doublade usually forming a great core with froslass to make hazard removal a pain. Guess it’s not fair to judge a decision based off of the playing level I experienced though.
Even so, Froslass is not as effective if not leading off. I mean it can still function, but hazard setting early on and getting off a d bond with focus sash are vital to its success. Knowing this, it would be important to lead with a faster poke, most likely scarfed to handle either a fast taunt, ice beam or spikes. Now yes, froslass could d bond first turn to force the faster poke to either kill itself or switch, giving froslass 1-2 hazards, and cursed body could come into play so that froslass gets more opportunities to set up hazards/d-bonds. Or Froslass could just not lead, but then the job of forcing froslass to take a less prominent role is successful.
At this point everyone knows what Froslass can do, which I guess is why I could not justify myself from not banning it. Yeah, it is excellent and almost unstoppable at what it can do, but it is also manageable to play around without shenanigan team building to try to stop it (though magic coat is cool). Spinning and defogging are also a thing. Defensive teams need the spin, and should have an answer to doublade to be able to spin, while hitmonlee and shiftry, to name a couple, are there for more offensive teams without really sacrificing team building. Mental herb shuckle, on the other hand, is predictable (ss shuckle ftw) but a lot more difficult to stop doing what it wants to do, but that is (maybe) for another time.
In short, Froslass is excellent at what it does, but it is able to be played around without much strain on teambuilding, so that is why I voted to not ban. I won’t be surprised and will be happy when Froslass is banned!
 
just want to post my thoughts on froslass. obviously, its forcing the metagame to centralize around sticky web as a way of beating it, which isn't healthy at all. but this is understandable, because against other teams, it just does its job way too reliably, enabling its teammates (cough sharpedo cough) to run through the team. anyone who says its easy to play around has only faced bad players using it, honestly. both facing and using froslass, it just seems unhealthy for the tier, and thats why i voted ban. don't really have much else to say because the pro-ban arguments have already been repeated a lot, so yeah.
 
My two cents on lass and why I voted ban: First off, I started suspect laddering with a standard-ish spikes HO team, then switched to a Shuckle web offense team due to the relatively good matchup they had vs. lass teams. Although the actual presence of Froslass on the ladder was relatively low, this was mostly due to the fact that webs ended up being so good versus it. I feel that this line in the OP sums up the issue nicely:
said:
Even though Froslass often dies early in the match (although smart players won't let it die right away if they don't need to sacrifice it), it will almost always do after doing its job - that is, setting up multiple layers of Spikes
Versus non-web teams, this is pretty much exactly what happens with Lass nearly every match, barring some stuff like fast taunts, rock blasts, etc.. Lass will lay down the spikes, and potentially take down the opposing lead with D-bond. In addition to this, it can spinblock, and hit numerous defoggers super effectively with Ice Beam (Not to mention, in a first turn Lass vs. Lass scenario, whoever wins the speed tie w/ Taunt gains a HUGE amount of momentum). Although the Spikes HO playstyle "loses" (not universally, obviously) to Web Offense, and sticky web offense is just plain everywhere, this is just a sign that the meta has centralized around beating Froslass, which isn't a healthy place for RU to be. Whether or not Web/Shuckle is broken can be discussed at a later date, but for the reasons above, I voted to ban.

On a separate note, Doublade is just really damn good right now. Easily worn down or not, it's pretty much the best spinblocker in the meta, and it will almost certainly be finding opportunities to set up a SD with its gigantic physical defense (it is even able to tank ridiculously strong knock offs if need be) and good typing. A well-played Doublade will find a chance nearly every match to take a decent chunk out of the opposition.
 

Raiza

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Doublade really gave me problems on the ladder, like all the people here already said it's an excellent spin blocker if not the best one in the Rarely Used Tier thanks to its bulk powered by the Eviolite, and his good typing that gives him many resistances and few weaknesses. The Eviolite buffs the physical defensive side to ridiculous levels, but it makes him reliable in the Special defensive side too making it doing well against Rapid Spin users as well, apart from Torkoal(lol),that still takes good damages from Doublade's Ghost STAB, and few others, but if you put some investiments in the defences/HP you can annihilate the majority of RU Pokémons without many efforts. I think the best set is the Sword Dance one, that uses Doublade's bulk to set a boost pretty easily and then spam ridiculous damages with the STABs,(mostly Gyro Ball and Shadow Sneak but I saw some with Shadow Claw too) that have a really good synergy together. Talking about team options, Froslass can be good with Doublade thanks to Destiny Bond,that can take out pokémons that give problems to him, and Spikes support, that will be difficult to remove thanks to a reliable spin blocker which is Doublade. Another good partnership can be possible with Sticky Web users. Sticky Web can slow down opponent's pokémons making the sweep of Doublade much easier, since Doublade isn't really fast, making it also a good cleaner in the late game.
 
Just fgi gyro ball is an inferior option to Iron Head on doublade as theres rly not that many fast threats due to sticky web being errywhere
 

CyclicCompound

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Just fgi gyro ball is an inferior option to Iron Head on doublade as theres rly not that many fast threats due to sticky web being errywhere
Not just that but this would also be an extremely embarrassing scenario

+6 252+ Atk Doublade Gyro Ball (22 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Aromatisse: 254-300 (62.5 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
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