Metagame NP: RU Stage 11: Dernière Danse (Medicham up to OU and Abomasnow and Slowking back in RU!)

[Lord Death Man]

I never said that Venomoth was balanced did I? I said that, like Venomoth, Exploud is a restrictive pokemon for stall. Honestly at this point I'm going to drop the argument because you obviously can't mention 3 viable Exploud counters because they simply don't exist.

the big difference (as well as what everyone else has said) is that you don't need to counter exploud to handle it on stall, unlike Venomoth, because Exploud is one-note and work up sets should be losing to your stallbreaker (which is essentially mandatory on stall lol) unless it's CM Flame Orb sigi or like something barely on the border of usable, at which point you know you lose to Exploud and should have at the very least a very decent check like Cradily.

I've never thought defog Golbat was good (that is, it sucks at finding a chance to defog) so I don't think the "with rocks" argument holds 100% true but golbat sucks and adds essentially nothing when spdef except checking Venomoth and toxicing sub CM Meloetta. Phys def gets bodied by Veno. Golbat is essentially a wasted slot without Defog and sucks at actually checking things with it.

Also, LO Veno doesn't actually care about rocks damage all that much because it can set up without taking damage and only really uses it's hp to tank like an Ice Shard or something and to power LO. Sub sets obviously lose to Golbat but if you're using sub Moth without a way to punish Golbat at this point idk what to tell you.

 

[g]

k so i can't definitely say i've had any troubles with Venomoth in this suspect test after my 20 games because in fact i was running an absurdly offensive team with a Lum Berry on the only Pokemon that Venomoth could potentially set up on (a Scrafty) but right after that i've started watching and spectating a few people's games and I've attempted using balance myself (I've also laddered about 30 games !) and the threat of Venomoth really started showing up. Even on a team with Specially Defensive Sleep Talk Steelix that mon is still quite a pain with deal with at times if my "scarfer faster than venomoth™" is down just considering how silly Sleep Power + Quiver Dance is.
Even if i just switch in from say Alomomola into my Steelix there is no guarantee I'll be able to win all the time 1v1 especially if i've had to take a hit previously to set up Stealth Rock and outside of the guessing game there is between clicking Heavy Slam / EQ (since LO Moth does a lot at +1 or even Black Sludge can afford to Substitute once or twice on a predicted Sleep Talk with little cost) or clicking Sleep Talk, there is also the fact that you need to be lucky enough to be asleep when you click Sleep Talk to actually hit it instead of waking up and Sleep Talking like a fool. Pretty much you have to run a revenge killer too if you have mons that give Venomoth opportunities.
I mean i am forced to run suboptimal sets such as Waterfall Alomomola and Sleep Talk Steelix / Camerupt to not give it leeway and even on offense the fast sleep move can be quickly devastating.
So yeah ill be voting ban

Also lol @ the conspiracy theories and broken mon witch hunt

 

[esca]

one of the most defining trait of venomoth for me is how terrifying it is to give this thing a free turn. It is not even hard to accomplish that, as rotom-c locked into leaf storm, fighting types locked into a fighting move, -2 tangrowth all give it a turn to do whatever it wants. Now, of course pokemon are dangerous if they are given a free turn, but venomoth is by far the most threatening mon of all RU in this situation. With sleep powder, qd and attacking with bug buzz/sludge bomb as possibilities there is barely any situation where you can be safe with any move you make. You might have your check in Sleep Talk Steelix, Escavalier or Fletchinder, but none of these can really switch in. Even though (AV-) Escavalier is the safest thing to switch in it really doesn´t like taking LO/Insect Plate Bug Buzz because of how it can not recover the damage. Fletchinder, while being a excellent revenger, has trouble switching into sludge bomb and substitute sets are also not favourable for it. And yeah, Sleep Talk Steelix is not really reliable, an ok check nevertheless.
It is also amazing how it can break down its checks & counters by itsef because of tinted lens boosted attacks, resulting in a lesser need for team support. I was undecided at first, but after laddering a bit i can confidently say that i will vote ban.

 

[scpinion]

As someone new to the RU tier, I don't have insight on the intricate details of team building, but I have no qualms saying Venomoth is an unhealthy presence in the tier.

Thanks wyngate and bloodz for passing me some teams to get into the meta! I've laddered with 3 teams across 30+ games so far: A bulky offense centered around m-Camerupt, a Smeargle + Venomoth + 4 threats HO, and a more conventional offensive team w/ Fletch to RK Venomoth if things got out of hand.

The m-camel bulky offense really struggled against Venomoth. The team was just too slow and the "scarfer faster than venomoth" galbia referenced wasn't enough in most cases, especially against a quality opponent. Having to run Sleep Talk on Camerupt to have a chance isn't healthy...

The conventional offense was fine vs. Venomoth. It could only set up on the Virizion I was running, but Fletch was a reasonably reliable revenge killer if that happened. Didn't really see any problems with this matchup; if I played well against Venomoth I had a chance to win. My team didn't utilize Venomoth so there wasn't too much else to learn.

The HO team w/ Smeargle and Venomoth was what I used for ~2/3 of the games b/c it gave me a chance to see how Venomoth worked in the meta. Venomoth is just stupidly good.

It was often an auto-win against balance: (1) Set Hazards, (2) Bait/Double to pressure the spinner/defogger, (3) use the other 4 'mons to pressure the Venomoth check (4) Put something to sleep, (5) QD/Sub to sweep/crack open their core.

I only played 1 game against stall w/ the HO team (and I hax'd the shit out of them), but Veno seems like it'd be really good in that matchup too. Sub + Boosting is generally trouble. I guess most people are hesitant to bring stall in a metagame where Venomoth is everywhere.

Against offense Smeargle's Webs made the matchup much more favorable for Venomoth. It could Sleep Powder 'mons that normally out-sped and kept it from setting up. 1 QD + Webs generally meant the opponent couldn't reliably RK and offense has nothing to take the boosted attacks.

Overall, the game isn't fun when there is a 'mon that just sets up on over half the tier and invalidates bulky builds. I'll be voting to ban Venomoth when I get reqs.

 

[Wanka]

Meh thoughts...

When I'm getting reqs for a tier I like to ask myself a few questions once I'm done getting my coil about the mon to determine whether I think it's broken or not.

Does Venomoth Restrict Teambuilding?
I took a decent look at the RU teambuilder and I think venomoth takes this question to a higher extent. There really is just not much at all you can run for this monster that isn't offensively checking it. A decent mon on paper that can help with it is steelix, but the metal snake actually takes a massive L if you can quiver on the switch and powder it the next turn http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-269183368 (replay I had on an alt i was using after I got reqs). So yea In a sense it does restrict teambuilder because it forces you to run offensive builds to deal with it which makes balance builds somewhat hard to use. It truly does pressure the hell out of players to run some sort of lure or answer for it so they don't get auto swept by it.

Does Venomoth Overcentralize the Meta?
Not in the sense that people are running certain balance mons for it because quite frankly there aren't really any. On the flip side, it causes overcentralization in the sense that a good portion of the meta was very offensive in this suspect because offense handled venomoth the best. Veno could break through offense on occasion with some sleep turn luck or a misplay but offense did do a decent job against moth. I didn't really see a certain one mon that was being used so commonly to check it rather I saw an entire play style being used frequently to handle it.

Metagame Trends...
So I kinda pissed a good portion of the RU ladder off because I used rain, (spare me please 0_0) but I partly did it because I wanted to see how venomoth could compete against weather because rain is an effective style to use in RU and I wanted to consider how it did vses moth. Weather is an offensive style in general so I fared very well against it because I was constantly keeping pressure on it with rain breakers and two encore mons in the back.

Like I said before in the centralization question, I noticed a crap ton of offensive builds during the suspect. You would still find your molas, your moongas, and your tangrowth's (who were offensive a lot of the time anyways), but as a whole offense had to have been the most common style during the suspect. For good reason too, it dealt with venomoth better than balance does and it wins games at the same time. So in the eyes of a ladder player, why not run offense if it provides those things. This being said, an entire meta hugely focused around offense is not a healthy meta. There should be a balance of both where offense is still a strong play style and balance can still function as an effective style as well. I think Venomoth is the driver in forcing that lopsided meta therefore it should be banned.

 

[Level 56]

Here's my thoughts on the suspect

So while getting reqs, i didn't face much problems dealing with Venomoth as i was using an offensive Sticky Web team. But since I was using Venomoth myself, it didn't take many matches for me to realise how threatening Venomoth is. Venomoth is unhealthy in the current metagame and has a negative affect on teambuilding. It is blessed with nice speed + strong STAB moves + typing + ability and on top of this, it has access to sleep powder + quiver dance. Due to all these things, Venomoth can easily sweep teams / do massive damage to the opposing team, when it finds the opportunity. After just a single boost from Quiver Dance, Venomoth is even more difficult to take on, since the increase in power, bulk, speed and Tinted Lens give Venomoth a big advantage against Venomoth's checks/counter. Sleep Powder is always a great move to have on a setup sweeper, since it makes the sweeping job more easier. The set I find most threatening is the substitute one. With this set, most teams have a very hard time dealing with Venomoth, especially stall teams, since most of the mons are unable to break its Substitute. Although, scarf users can deal with Venomoth if used correctly.

Overall, it gives too much uses to a team, thanks to its offensive capabilities. If we want to make the metagame better, then Venomoth needs to get banned.

 

[zdrup15]

After getting reqs, I want to post my opinions on this.

Venomoth is broken because it restricts teambuilding a lot. You can't use only a counter, you have to use at least a scounter and a check or a counter and a revenge killer. Then there's another problem, sleep powder shanenigans mean sure counters may not be so good anyway. Here's a replay of sub qd venomoth defeating resttalk emboar 1v1, just to give you an example of how absurdly specific counters still have chances to be defeated (in this case turning counters into several 50/50s). There's also a replay against stall, in which stall was eventually swept by moth, and that stall team had both mega-lix and golbat.

I know many people lo dual stab is its best set but I can't agree with it after winning so many matches with sub qd, I think I'd have preferred the lo set on 2 or 3 matches but the sub+lefties combo saved me in more than that. I only used offense but had spdef mega-camel (guess why) and scarf durant on the same team and I was still swept 2 or 3 times by moth in offensive teams. And I think we can agree offense is the playstyle that suffers less from it but suffer less =/= no suffer, by a big margin.

Long story short, easy ban imo.

Also, tons of webs teams on the ladder, smeargle alone did bring it back and it's a strong playstyle again. I wonder how pure tr teams would fare on the ladder considering not many people are running stall (the two I saw running it already qualified so they're out) and it's all offense. Final recommendation: cb sawk people, cb sawk. Even other people high on the ladder had troubles against it.

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

Alright, I'm just about to finish getting reqs (I just need to take a lil' break heh) so I think this is an optimal time to write my thoughts on the Moth.

I'll start off by saying that I've been running Hyper Offense and as such has had no issues dealing with Moth myself (it didn't even get a single kill against me somehow), but I did run one myself in turn. Now I'd like to break down my thoughts a little bit from the experience I had with it. Seeing that this Moth is an easy button wincon which fits in actually most playstyles (full stall being the only one it can't fit in at all), the consensus already seems to be that the moth has to go. And I do agree with that, and there are several reasons as to why that is so.

1. Venomoth is perhaps one of the easiest mons to setup against any teams with any kind of defensive mons. Things like Jellicent, Post-Spore Amoongus, Alomomola, Aromatisse, non-Twave Granbull/Togetic, even M-Lix sometimes as well as all other passive mons out there, as well as things like -2 Tangrowth, -2 Rotom-C, -2 Special Flygon, are all turned into problems for your own team, as a single turn with these inside means a free turn for Moth to start setting up QDs and win. Utilizing it's good typing, decent bulk and good speed it can take advantage of any and all defensive mon that doesn't carry an SE move like Rhyp.
2. Considering this effect it has, turning defensive oriented pokemon to setup fodder in greater levels than other setup sweepers, the Pokemon has turned the meta far more offensive for comfort. Now, let's all be honest, stall was already in a bad spot before Venomoth dropped and therefore I won't really mention it's abilities to beat stall. But the fact that Balance is forced to run something like Scarf Delphox, Fletchinder, Scarf Durant or such... basically something capable of revenge killing it. And granted, these pokemon are not bad by any means, but the fact that Balance needs these to have a chance at functioning causes a centralized meta. And the main reason to this is that you either run Balance with these mons or you run full blown offense/hyper offense, because Mosth struggles to find setup against these teams.

I have to admit it, I don't think it's anywhere near as powerful or broken as others do (I am pretty reserved when it comes to bans and such), but I will admit the effect it has on the meta is disturbing. The fact that I ran Hyper Offense, my least favorite playstyle, was enough for me to agree that it probably should go. I still hate to see Pokemon go into a limbo, but I guess there's nothing more to it.

 

[DreamScream]

Now that I got my Reqs, I think I'll give my thoughts on Venomoth.

Venomoth has made teambuilding very hard these last few weeks trying to ladder up. Really, the only things that I feel have a very good matchup against Venomoth are AV Escavalier (which is not that good in the current meta compared to some other threats), Mega Steelix (which needs to run sleep talk to avoid being set up fodder), and Fletchinder (which can't switch into any hit, but is guaranteed to revenge kill). Venomoth on its own isn't that scary because it's frailty and so-so base 90 speed tier makes it very vulnerable before set up. However, with proper support (which is not hard to come by in this tier), Venomoth can set up for free and sweep unprepared teams or put a big dent into ones with "checks". The moth's ability also allows it to clean up against teams who have resists to bug/poison.

Towards the middle of gaining my Reqs, I decided to test how easy it was to build a team in which Venomoth can put in a lot of work. I built a terrible team around Venomoth and threw it into the ring. I think Venomoth got at least 1 kill in every game I used the team in. And this was a team with no synergy to Venomoth. I just relied on free switches via death and setting up once before I bug buzzed the world. Venomoth was incredibly easy to use and I won games against decent opponents using a bad team just because I used Venomoth.

If I want to bring one point home about this moth, it is the restriction on team building. To highlight this, I want to explain how I would deal with Venomoth based on the team I built. On the team I used to get my Reqs, every mon could hit Venomoth for super effective damage (except Durant, but it's a Durant so it still OHKO's) so it could not get a free switch in. I had 3 mons that outspeed Venomoth, 2 of which outspeed after 1 quiver, including a Fletchinder who I can bring in at any point. If Venomoth came in for free, I would immediately switch in my Virizion so nothing could be put to sleep. I would then spam Zen Headbutt so it could not set up. Then, I would revenge kill with Fletchinder or Durant. The reason Durant was necessary was because many teams that run Venomoth have a counter to Fletchinder (Steelix, Rhyperior, Registeel, etc.) who could be hit hard by Superpower or Iron Head, depending on the mon. If I have to devote 3 mons to take out one safely, there is a problem.

I voted in the PU suspect to ban Carracosta because I felt that it was so ridiculously broken that the metagame could not survive with it around. Venomoth is even more broken for RU. Can't wait to use it in UU! BAN

 

[Senpai D.M]

Thoughts after reqs;

Venomoth really affected teambuilding if youre not offense you have to have a slot to somewhat check moth or even play around it with 2 mons just to take it down. Venomoth also has a few sets it could run according to team, so you never know what your facing and a 'check can no longer do its job. I definitely feel its 'broken as giving the user a advantage against all playstyles. Offense really have to add the pressure and hope it never sets up, balance and stall both can 'check it giving checks dont get worn down or simply put to sleep. What bothers me the most was playing against it and playing the sleep fodder game. I would try to sleep fodder a mon then hope my check could come in and do its job, giving that the player chose to sleep powder or didnt miss. Honestly what does anyone have for a well played Venomoth? voting Ban.

 

[The Hitman]

I don't want to just parrot what everybody else has said about Moth. Though I don't feel it is insanely broken, it's banning to me feels justified. My main check for it was mega Lix, who on paper counters it well. It is always just such a crapshoot A, getting it in, and b, successfully navigating between QDs and Sleep. The lefites and sub variants are still manageable IMO, but the LO set just blows wholes through p much everything. When you're 2hkoing pseudo counters, something is wrong. Moth's best revenge killers, scarf delphox and fletchinder, are weak to rocks and suffer from repeated necessary switch ins. Venomoth's ease of use is high, risk of use is low, and it's reward is often game winning. Most games at worst Moth is sleeping something and denting a check, easily holding it's worth on all styles of teams. I'm generally anti-ban on most things, but I'm leaning ban on this instance.

Moth related semantics aside, moving forward the tier needs to take a hard look at Smeargle, and webs in particular. There was a real proliferation of webs teams on the ladder towards the latter end of the test, and it is extremely taxing for a lot of teams to face. The spore + webs combo is very free, and taunts and defogs are kinda easy to predict and play around. Smeargle's relatively decent speed allows it to set up on a decent amount of mons. The strength of webs once up is compounded by the fact that RU is a very grounded tier. Not a great selection of levitators or flying types(Braviary?), and not a ton of solid defoggers sans flygon. When people are less paranoid about Moth maybe webs will be more well accounted for, but it is definitely something to keep tabs on moving forward

 

[BreloomMyHomie]

Probably the most broken pokemon in the tier atm.

Venomoth is broken because it restricts teambuilding a lot. The fact that the only true counter in my opinion is specially defensive eviolite Golbat, means something. If a stall team you face doesn't have Golbat, sub Quiver Dance could potentially sweep if you play your cards right. Furthermore, you also need sleep fodder when facing this mon. When I was on the ladder, I tried using sleep talk Mega Steelix, but it didn't really work out because tinted lens life orb Bug Buzz did a crap ton and I got a bad sleep talk(rest).

I know many people use the Life Orb Quiver Dance set with dual stab, but honestly, I love the Sub Quiver Dance set. It saved me tons of times on the ladder when facing stall. After giving up with Rain, I resorted to Hyper Offense, and swept so many teams with this monster. I understand that there are so many revenge killers to this thing such as Fletchinder and scarf Delphox, but lets be real. You have to break to sub first, avoid the sleep powder shenanigans, and then kill it. Only playstyle that can truly pressure Venomoth is sticky web offense; because after a Quiver Dance, you only get back to neutral speed.

I am definitely voting Ban.

 

[Mankind]

Yea Venomoth is really unhealthy for this meta. It has very few counters and even they are not 100% safe to switch in against moth since they risk the sleep powder and, if the opp decides to sleepfodder another mon, then moth has a free way to statup. The fact that some mons who can check it somehow have to use sleep talk to win the 1 v 1 ( mega steelix for example ) means overcentralization, something not good in a competitive environment. Also, sleep talk can sometimes cause a lot of 50/50s and / or you have to be lucky to guess the turn your mon is waking up ( in case it's still alive ofc ); we all know that if a bit meh if the outcome of a match is decided by one or more 50/50s, especially if a dangerous pokèmon can cause them by himself ( just like aegislash in ou ), so I'm definitely voting ban for this moth.

 

[Slimmer]

Yo. I'm still laddering (could have finished earlier but I had a "bug issue") and as now I didn't find particular issues with venomoth personally but it would be false admitting that it isn't a too dangerous threat for this tier.
The feature that gives Venomoth the "powerhouse" status is surely Tinted Lens since thanks to this ability Venomoth can forget about coverage and allow in its moveset both Sleep Powder and Quiver Dance (or even Substitute). The only safe switchin is surely Escavalier (though an HP Fire Venomoth wouldnt be so bad) while many other mon gotta pay attention to sleep move (forcing some mons like Mega Steelix run obscure moves like Sleep Talk as user Mankind said above my post). Surely you can run faster scarf mons like Delphox or Durant but you can't switch them directly on Veno due to Sleep risk or just Bug Buzz that does several damage so that means you gotta play RKillers perfectly without a better rely on solid checks (just Escavalier is safe) that usually means you gotta sack a mon in order to don't let all your mons being 2hkoed so I will likely say ban

ps scarf medicham ohkoes like 3/4 of metagame, nerf it 2op pl0x

 

[DKFirelord]

first these are the teams I used to get reqs they are form RU Teambuilding thread/ Teambuilding Competion have fun

Teams

=== Untitled 1 ===

Sigilyph @ Life Orb / Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost / Thunder Wave
- Dazzling Gleam
- Psychic
- Heat Wave

Durant @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Baton Pass
- Iron Head
- X-Scissor
- Superpower

Scrafty @ Lum Berry
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- High Jump Kick
- Knock Off
- Iron Tail

Steelix-Mega @ Steelixite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Atk / 4 Def / 200 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Alomomola @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 120 HP / 136 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Waterfall
- Toxic

Spiritomb @ Black Glasses
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pursuit
- Sucker Punch
- Shadow Sneak


=== Untitled 2 ===

Fletchinder
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 136 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Def / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Acrobatics
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost

Durant @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- X-Scissor
- Iron Head
- Superpower
- Thunder Fang

Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off
- Scald
- Earth Power

Flygon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 29 HP / 0 Atk
- Defog
- Earth Power
- Fire Blast
- Draco Meteor

Virizion @ Lum Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge

Delphox @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Dazzling Gleam
- Switcheroo
- Fire Blast


=== Untitled 3 ===

Houndoom @ Life Orb
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Sucker Punch

Qwilfish @ Black Sludge
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Scald

Rhyperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 248 HP / 12 Atk / 232 SpD / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast

Sigilyph @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Psyshock
- Dazzling Gleam
- Heat Wave

Virizion @ Lum Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge

Hitmonlee @ Life Orb
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Mach Punch
- Knock Off
- High Jump Kick

Got reqs and want to say even now Veno is still unhealthy for this metagame. I've seen stall teams that have to run some barely viable min slike golbat to stop it or mons like M Lix or Emboar or Rhyperior carrying Sleep Talk just so Venomoth can't QD on it. Even though Moth is pressured hard by offensive and the popular Fletch ( has been gaining a lot of usage ) doesn't mean it shouldn't be ban it over centerlizing to other playstyle if they don't run a mon like fletch or a Sleep Talk mon. So yeah ban is still my vote sorry Moth :c

 

[PokemonGottapOK]

I find it very balanced Venomoth. here's a replay of me using: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-271473310. however, with tinted lens it reaches almost be a broken (because of Registeel.) even scares so many teams.

 

[Killintime]

Alright this was probably one of the worst reqs ive been through but ill suck it up and post my opinions on the moth. The mon itself has a few set options but they all carry the same goal of trying to incapacitate their own counters via some sort of status such as sleep powder, with the only one being immune to this conventional status being escavalier. To try and mitigate this mon i ran sp.def emboar with safety goggles and rest talk to prevent wear down. now you might be wondering why the redundancy of sleep talk and goggles? well to put it simply i lost to sub sleep powder moth via rolls 2 times. The mon itself functions like vivilion except its only 2x weak to rocks, has a great defensive typing, and can fit on almost any team. The power it gains from its ability tinted lens is just to strong for the ru metagame as an example:
+1 252 SpA Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 174 HP / 0 SpD Escavalier: 164-194 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

With the addition of sleep powder youre basically forced to sleep fodder one of your mons and if the opponent decides to be cheecky and quiver again on your switch to the sleep fodder you have most likely lost the game. In terms of pairing up with mons it synergizes with the tiers top threats like scrafty or virizion due to it ability to switch into fairy moves and start setting up.

The mon itself has access to an interesting movepool as well with moves like psychic and giga drain you cant really call mons like rhyperior a "check" per say just due to the life orb set and the whole sleep fodder idea. Ive seen flitchender run on almost every team due to this whole thing (not like linda wasnt already amazing) more so then I usually see it also forcing me to run a team do deal with that kind of pressure. Honestly my opinion is of ban I cant see how moth is healthy for the metagame in anyways besides forcing ppl to get into the mindset of "who can get to +1 with veno first". as always enjoy your days guys.

 

[Amorbis]

Although most have been said and I'm pretty late, I still want to give my opinion about Venomoth.

Ever since Venomoth came to the tier, I really wanted it gone as it's imo ridiculous and heavily unhealthy for the tier. Moth is without a doubt the best and most threatening sweeper in the tier. Venomoth has the right combination of ability, movepool, offensive stats and typing to be incredibly hard to deal with. Beating Venomoth can be really hard as between Quiver Dance boosts, Sleep Powder and an amazing ability in Tinted Lens, very few things can actually deal with it. Yes, there might be some checks/counters like Togetic, Golbat, Steelix, Assault Vest Escavalier and Fletchinder but they aren't even that reliable. Togetic and Fletchinder are weak to SR, the former is incredibly exploitable and they are incredibly unreliable against Sludge Wave versions. Steelix and Escavalier are incredibly easy to wear down and the latter even needs to win 50/50s between Sleep Powder/Bug Buzz and favourable Sleep Talk roll. Golbat is probably the most reliable check of the list but not only it is forced to run Specially Defensive investisment to do so, it's weak to SR(which will come in play as it's a defogger anyway) and it's only a shaky check to Sludge Wave versions. On top of that, all this checks, except Escavalier and Sleep Talk Lix have to watch out for Sleep, and Venomoth isn't even that easy to wear down as it has Roost to stay healthy and Toxic immunity. You might think that there are some revenge killers but they are limited to Scarf Durant(which relies on 80% accuracies moves), Scarf Delphox, Fletchinder and the mediocre Scarf Flygon and they can't even switch in without taking lots of damages(Durant is Ohkoed by Bug Buzz, Delphox takes 50-60 % and Flygon takes 60-70%). Setting up Venomoth isn't that hard thanks to Sleep powder, nice defensive typing, despite only below-average defenses and ability to come on defensive 'mons and force some offensive 'mons. Venomoth can set up on the likes of -2 Tangrowth, Rotom-C locked into Leaf Storm, Medicham locked into High Jump Kick and defensive mons like Alomomola, Aromatisse and even Amoonguss when running Substitute and as 90 base speed outspeeds a huge portion of the tier, it's not hard to force 'mons even against more offensive teams.

So, yeah I believe Venomoth is broken and even unhealthy as it's detremential to the tier because you're forced to run specific checks to beat it, like Sleep Talk Steelix(which would definitely benefit more from using Roar and Toxic) and shifts the metagame toward offense as they tend to fare better against it so I voted to ban it.

 

[Molk]

As of this post: Venomoth has been banned from RU in a super majority vote

Just like last round, we're probably going to let the metagame settle a little bit to see if anything seems worthy of a suspect test

For now, treat this thread like a general metagame discussion :)

The Immortal

 

[MrAldo]

Awww yeah!! I can use rotom-mow again! Looking forward to the new meta, RU has been really great lately, just with venomoth being the major issue but with now gone this new meta is looking absolutely amazing!

Sweet, I can running sleep talk, lum berry and safety goggles in most of my mons!

 

[DKFirelord]

Is it Christmas :DD yeah I agree with what MrAldo said Rotom-M is coming back didn't receive that much usage because it was set up fodder for moth for now that it's gone time for it to spam Leaf Storms again and no more sleep talk Mega Lix and Mega Rupt praise the lord :DD

 

[atomicllamas]

Alright, cool, moth is banned !__!

So I kinda wanted to direct discussion at this point towards a few Pokemon in particular. There have been a couple of Pokemon brought up by the council as potentially worthy of a suspect test, and we are interested in hearing your guys's opinions as players of the tier. The main Pokemon that has been brought up by the council and pushed for most extensively is Tyrantrum. So if you guys think suspect worthy, or not suspect worthy at all, or w/e feel free to post about it, but please make sure to back up your posts with solid logic and good meta game knowledge. For what its worth other Pokemon that people mentioned included Mega Glalie, Sigilyph, and Scrafty, I am personally very opposed to suspecting Mega Glalie and Sigilyph, but if you want to comment on Scrafty that's alright as well, just please no "it has no counters with the right berry" posts (yes I mean you 49).

 

[Killintime]

Well i dont normally post on these type of forums but I am bored enough to do so this time. So the mons brought up were:

For what its worth other Pokemon that people mentioned included Mega Glalie, Sigilyph, and Scrafty,

The main Pokemon that has been brought up by the council and pushed for most extensively is Tyrantrum

Tyrantrum: Well without a doubt this mon is a powerhouse capable of 2hkoing allot of the tiers top walls with the banded set, simply being a powerful revenge killer in its scarf set, or being a great wc in its DD lum or lo set.
Alomola:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 319-376 (60.3 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Amoongus:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Amoonguss: 382-450 (88.4 - 104.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Tangrowth:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 237-279 (58.8 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Offensive playstyle checks:
Siesmatoad:
252 Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 164 HP / 0 Def Seismitoad: 148-174 (37.7 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Scrafty:
252 Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scrafty: 103-122 (38 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Qwilfish:
-1 252 Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 135-159 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
magneton:
252 Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Magneton: 81-96 (33.6 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Now with that in mind there are still mons who can counter/check it decently even when banded such as bronzong, rhyperior, mega steelix, etc.
Tyrant has a decent enough typing to setup on a few mons of note such as alomola, choice locked emboar, choice locked delphox, etc.

That gives tyrant a chance to setup on not only offensive playstyle, but also on the more defensive ones. From whats seen above you can tell that on paper allot of offensive teams can run intro troubles with a tyrantrum whether or not its scarf:
flygon:
252 Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 140-165 (46.5 - 54.8%) -- 65.2% chance to 2HKO
Virizion:
252 Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 153-180 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO

About the only thing that's somewhat holding tyrantrum back versus offensive teams is its speed but that can simply be mitigated by a scarf (which restricts it in that manner). The mon itself relies on its shaky move known as headsmash with a whopping 150bp but with a 80% accuracy baseline. This talk is really just to highlight the rex's strong points given to it by its ability to 2hko a good portion of the tier unboosted while at the same time boasting decent natural bulk and typing. As a stall player there are times where I feel pressured by its presence on another team but its honestly negligible, but as an offensive player I can see it being a huge pain to deal with since everytime it comes in i force myself to take dmg on walls that are normally supposed to be used to block multiple mons in the tier which usually are paired up with tyrantrum. If offensive checks were more pronounced I would feel it would be fine for it to be in the tier but currently I want to say it gets in the way at times. But again this is all my opinion and I probably missed out on allot of mons since I am making this post when i woke up.
Id still like to hear what others think.

 

[Kingler]

I honestly dont think anything really needs a suspect at this point of time as this meta is basically the previous meta + smeargle and i dont find anything obscenely broken/loluncompetitive to the point that it would warrant a suspect test. We have very solid checks to Ttrum in Rhyperior, Mega Steelix, Gurdurr and Seismitoad, it has poor special bulk and is outsped by some stuff even w/ scarf (Jolteon immediately springs to mind). I really don't sympathize with the idea of a suspect tbh as it's just another strong mon you need to prepare for; its main STAB attack is pretty unreliable for a revenge killer and it doesn't gain amazing wallbreaking capabilities without a CB on which leaves it even more susceptible to being revenge killed. I'll definitely play more matches and see if my opinion changes but I'm firmly opposed to suspecting anything at this point of time.

 

[scpinion]

I honestly dont think anything really needs a suspect at this point of time as this meta is basically the previous meta + smeargle and i dont find anything obscenely broken/loluncompetitive to the point that it would warrant a suspect test. We have very solid checks to Ttrum in Rhyperior, Mega Steelix, Gurdurr and Seismitoad, it has poor special bulk and is outsped by some stuff even w/ scarf (Jolteon immediately springs to mind). I really don't sympathize with the idea of a suspect tbh as it's just another strong mon you need to prepare for; its main STAB attack is pretty unreliable for a revenge killer and it doesn't gain amazing wallbreaking capabilities without a CB on which leaves it even more susceptible to being revenge killed. I'll definitely play more matches and see if my opinion changes but I'm firmly opposed to suspecting anything at this point of time.

I'll start by saying I agree nothing feels broken at the moment, certainly not Sigilyph or Mega-Glalie.

One thing I'll bring up that differentiates Tyrantrum in this metagame from the previous is Smeargle's ability to "reliably" set Sticky Web against offensively minded teams. Webs allow CB/LO Tyrantrum to really shine. As before, the LO/CB means there is almost nothing that can switch in and take two hits when facing bulkier builds. However, now it becomes much more challenging for offensive teams to revenge kill.

Priority isn't a reliable method to RK b/c of Ttrum's high Def stat; LO Adamant Lee's Mach punch only does ~55%. You need Jolly Dugtrio (assuming Ttrum is Adamant), Jolteon, or a faster non-grounded 'mon (e.g. Flygon, Braviary, Misdreavus), or a scarfer that is faster despite webs. Almost all good teams will have one of those things, but they can be very easy to pressure and/or predict off to maintain momentum.

That said, like Kingler12345, I don't view Tyrantrum as broken. It is just a major threat that must be accounted for when building/playing.

edit: added scarfers faster than Tyrantrum as a way to RK