Metagame NP: RU Stage 2.5: Kids (READ POST #265)

[Ningildo]

Looks like I'll be (to my surprise) going against the grain here when I say that I don't think Shuckle is broken.

People seem to think it's basically impossible to prevent Shuckle getting both Web and Rocks down, which simply isn't true for anything but Stall teams, who generally don't care about Web being up anyway. There's essentially 2 ways to stop both layers going down for Offense, Xatu or simply 2HKO'ing it, neither of which are difficult. Hitmonlee and Kabutops are both Spinners that can 2HKO Shuckle, and can punish Spinblockers coming in with powerful Knock Offs, then theres Rhyperior, Sharpedo, Magneton, Amoonguss (Spore), Clawitzer, Cincinno, Durant, Archeops are all completely viable mons on offense which can prevent 2 layers, then depending on the spread Doublade, Escavalier too. There's also things like Knock Off + Taunt Mega Banette, or Switcheroo Delphox/Trick Rotom-C/Trick Zoroark.

As for Shuckle being bulky enough to come in later in the game, this for the most part isn't true since you should of landed a big hit on it first turn as it set down Web, as well as the fact that its so slow that anything it comes in on its going to have to take 2 hits from, and finally it's weak to Rocks. Now obviously people don't have to lead with Shuckle, but since they're team is so reliant on Web being up to outpace things they can rarely afford not to.

Now if you're running Offense and Shuckle has managed to get Web down and you can't find opportunities to remove it, there's still plenty of pokemon which can still trhive. Scarf Rotom-C and Scarf Moltres especially but also non Scarf variants are basically guaranted to outspeed everything, even Scarf grounded pokemon like Delphox can outpace standard web mons with Web up. Outside of Scarfers you still have Yanmega, Fletchinder, Mismagius, Vivillon and Sigilyph which can outpace and punish mons so reliant on Web. There's also tons of priority available with Zoro/Lee/Gurdurr/MegaSnow/Kabu/Doublade/Mega Banette/Zangoose.

All this combined with Shuckles 0 offensive presence leads me to believeing Shuckle isn't broken. Web itself or Exploud/Yanmega have far more justification for a ban than Shuckle, though I don't think any of them are ban worthy

Oh and I do agree with Shuckle teams being a bit stale, but that is the fault of the playerbase choosing to use them, not the fault of Shuckle.

Edit: If Shuckle is banned then Leavanny should be the replacement, since if knocked down to Swarm it's X Scissor can be quite powerful, it's the fastest Sticky Web user available, and finally it has access to Magic Coat to bounce back Taunt and SR.

For the first paragraph, I'd suggest reading EonX's post. Furthermore, Adamant LO Hitmonlee has a less then 10% chance of 2HKOing Doublade with Knock Off and Kabutops less then 1% if they have no hazard support. In return, Hitmonlee has a fair chance of being OHKOd by Iron head assuming it's at 100% (ha) and Kabutops takes 80% minimum if it's a Weak Armor variant from a Iron Head+Shadow Sneak combo (70% if it isn't). So, assuming they predict perfectly 100% of the time, they still can't beat it bar lucky rolls. The fact that Shuckle only gets 2HKOd by some of the hardest hitting mons in the tier (or those with STAB SE moves) means that it will always will get SW up (and more often then not, SR as well) and raise hell against Offense (who uses the spinners I mentioned, who can't KO Doublade reliably). Defoggers are meh on Offense unless they forgo hazards of their own. The last options mentioned can be applied to nearly everything laying 2+ hazards.

Second paragraph's point is pretty valid, can't really say anything against that, although considering that offensive spinners can't beat Doublade reliably anyway and Defoggers get screwed over by Braviary, often it doesn't have to set SW up more then once.

There's only Levitate mons and exceptions like Sigilyph that don't mind Sticky Web AND Stealth Rock. The rest gets screwed over real hard by the latter. Most SW team members don't mind priority if not SE as they do have some semblance of bulk and most of these have issues anyway. Zoro and Lee can get outpaced by an opposing Lee and Mach Punch'd themselves, on top of having issues switching in (but it's HO these usually are on, so meh). Hell, over half of these have issues against Lee under SW and others, while also needing a turn to maximize their power (the Mega's, Zangoose). Doublade is also terrified of Exploud coming in for free, among others.

And, no. Leavanny won't replace Shuckle, for two reasons. 1. It lacks the bulk to run Mental Herb so needs to rely on Magic Coat (prediction, basically) to bypass Taunt and other nasty things. Also gets fucked up by Cincinno. 2. Has really poor coverage and can't stop things from setting up on it due lack of Taunt/Encore (unlike, say, Accelgor :3). Not sure how it's gonna be a poor man's Shuckle with those flaws. Any other Sticky Web setters are even more flawed so I won't go into them.

 

[atomicllamas]

Looks like I'll be (to my surprise) going against the grain here when I say that I don't think Shuckle is broken.

People seem to think it's basically impossible to prevent Shuckle getting both Web and Rocks down, which simply isn't true for anything but Stall teams, who generally don't care about Web being up anyway. There's essentially 2 ways to stop both layers going down for Offense, Xatu or simply 2HKO'ing it, neither of which are difficult. Hitmonlee and Kabutops are both Spinners that can 2HKO Shuckle, and can punish Spinblockers coming in with powerful Knock Offs, then theres Rhyperior, Sharpedo, Magneton, Amoonguss (Spore), Clawitzer, Cincinno, Durant, Archeops are all completely viable mons on offense which can prevent 2 layers, then depending on the spread Doublade, Escavalier too. There's also things like Knock Off + Taunt Mega Banette, or Switcheroo Delphox/Trick Rotom-C/Trick Zoroark.

As for Shuckle being bulky enough to come in later in the game, this for the most part isn't true since you should of landed a big hit on it first turn as it set down Web, as well as the fact that its so slow that anything it comes in on its going to have to take 2 hits from, and finally it's weak to Rocks. Now obviously people don't have to lead with Shuckle, but since they're team is so reliant on Web being up to outpace things they can rarely afford not to.

Now if you're running Offense and Shuckle has managed to get Web down and you can't find opportunities to remove it, there's still plenty of pokemon which can still trhive. Scarf Rotom-C and Scarf Moltres especially but also non Scarf variants are basically guaranted to outspeed everything, even Scarf grounded pokemon like Delphox can outpace standard web mons with Web up. Outside of Scarfers you still have Yanmega, Fletchinder, Mismagius, Vivillon and Sigilyph which can outpace and punish mons so reliant on Web. There's also tons of priority available with Zoro/Lee/Gurdurr/MegaSnow/Kabu/Doublade/Mega Banette/Zangoose.

All this combined with Shuckles 0 offensive presence leads me to believeing Shuckle isn't broken. Web itself or Exploud/Yanmega have far more justification for a ban than Shuckle, though I don't think any of them are ban worthy

Oh and I do agree with Shuckle teams being a bit stale, but that is the fault of the playerbase choosing to use them, not the fault of Shuckle.

Edit: If Shuckle is banned then Leavanny should be the replacement, since if knocked down to Swarm it's X Scissor can be quite powerful, it's the fastest Sticky Web user available, and finally it has access to Magic Coat to bounce back Taunt and SR.

You definitely won't be the only one voting no ban, as I've come to agree with a lot of what you are saying. When I'm using defensive teams against webs offense, I actually just use Shuckle to set up my own hazards, as doublade cockblocks p much every spinner, so they can't remove my hazards either. Otherwise Alomomola + Registeel + sub bu brav counter (or just like Golbat with infiltrator toxic and alomomola) beat p much every webs team. I also used a more offensive team got a portion of the suspect, and webs teams do really struggle with a lot of offensive mons, such as Moltres and rotom-c, which are great mons in their own right. I can agree that webs offense is a stale (and strong) style, but I'm not sure I agree it's broken.

I may elaborate more later, I'm on my phone / busy.

 

[Afro Smash]

For the first paragraph, I'd suggest reading EonX's post. Furthermore, Adamant LO Hitmonlee has a less then 10% chance of 2HKOing Doublade with Knock Off and Kabutops less then 1% if they have no hazard support. In return, Hitmonlee has a fair chance of being OHKOd by Iron head assuming it's at 100% (ha) and Kabutops takes 80% minimum if it's a Weak Armor variant from a Iron Head+Shadow Sneak combo (70% if it isn't). So, assuming they predict perfectly 100% of the time, they still can't beat it bar lucky rolls. The fact that Shuckle only gets 2HKOd by some of the hardest hitting mons in the tier (or those with STAB SE moves) means that it will always will get SW up (and more often then not, SR as well) and raise hell against Offense (who uses the spinners I mentioned, who can't KO Doublade reliably). Defoggers are meh on Offense unless they forgo hazards of their own. The last options mentioned can be applied to nearly everything laying 2+ hazards.

Second paragraph's point is pretty valid, can't really say anything against that, although considering that offensive spinners can't beat Doublade reliably anyway and Defoggers get screwed over by Braviary, often it doesn't have to set SW up more then once.

There's only Levitate mons and exceptions like Sigilyph that don't mind Sticky Web AND Stealth Rock. The rest gets screwed over real hard by the latter. Most SW team members don't mind priority if not SE as they do have some semblance of bulk and most of these have issues anyway. Zoro and Lee can get outpaced by an opposing Lee and Mach Punch'd themselves, on top of having issues switching in (but it's HO these usually are on, so meh). Hell, over half of these have issues against Lee under SW and others, while also needing a turn to maximize their power (the Mega's, Zangoose). Doublade is also terrified of Exploud coming in for free, among others.

And, no. Leavanny won't replace Shuckle, for two reasons. 1. It lacks the bulk to run Mental Herb so needs to rely on Magic Coat (prediction, basically) to bypass Taunt and other nasty things. Also gets fucked up by Cincinno. 2. Has really poor coverage and can't stop things from setting up on it due lack of Taunt/Encore (unlike, say, Accelgor :3). Not sure how it's gonna be a poor man's Shuckle with those flaws. Any other Sticky Web setters are even more flawed so I won't go into them.

EonX has made a lot of posts in this thread, so you'll have to specify for me.

As for Hitmonlee and Kabutops, I wasn't stating they could beat Doublade 1 on 1, I was stating they could 2HKO Shuckle which stops it setting up both hazards, and when it is forced out to Doublade to keep the precious Web up they can hit it with a strong Knock Off, crippling it for the rest of the match. Or if Shuckle decides to stay in, then it's only got Web down, which is no better than what any other Web user can do (though obviously it's the most reliable setter).

And though it may be that the pokemon that can 2hko are some of the hardest hitters in the tier, they are very common pokemon that you can easily place on offense, and a lot of them on balance too, and they will stop Shuckle getting 2 layers down.

The levitating/Flying Checks to Web won't need to worry about Rocks if you've done your job right the first few turns, since Shuckle should not have been able to lay Rocks down alongside Web, and even if they have you can Defog at a later time, even if that means sacking something to Braviary.

Priorirty wise I mean, I'm not bringing Zangoose in on Hitmonlee, I just meant in general being able to Sucker Punch and Quick Attack Yanmega's and Mach Punch Exploud's can ensure they're bought down before doing too much damage, without needing to outspeed them.

Finally I wasn't saying Leavanny was as good as Shuckle, I was saying its the next best option as a Web setter.

 

[EonX]

This one Afro Smash. Also, 2HKOing it doesn't mean a damn thing. That prevents Rocks. While that's helpful for you, Shuckle is still getting Sticky Web up, which is its primary goal. As I said in that post, having Rocks is just a bonus. The main goal of Shuckle is to get Webs up, and unless you have one of the two threats I specified in that post, you cannot, and will not, prevent it from doing that. So long as there isn't a Rocks weak mon such as Moltres or Yanmega, I'm p. sure most Web Offense teams are just fine if Shuckle can't get Rocks up. Sure, Lee and Tops can 2HKO Shuckle and spin Webs away. How are they dealing with the obvious Doublade switch-in? What's keeping Shuckle from going to that and just switching back in on virtually half the tier cuz they can't 2HKO it reliably? Just some things to think about.

 

[Afro Smash]

Well if the issue with Shuckle isn't the fact that it can lay down Rocks and Web reliably but the fact in can lay down Web reliably, then why not just suspect Sticky Web? It's evident that that's the problem people have, Web + not being able to Spin cuz Doublade/not being able to Defog cuz Braviary, and even though Shuckle is the most reliable setter of Sticky Web, Leavanny is only mildly less effective at setting it up since it can Magic Bounce back Taunt and can live any hit bar Cincinno's with Sash, or you could go Defensive with Mental Herb. My point is that even if Shuckle goes there are still other reliable ways to get Web down, even if they aren't as reliable as Shuckle was.

If reliable Web isn't the issue then my bad.

 

[Ares]

Well if the issue with Shuckle isn't the fact that it can lay down Rocks and Web reliably but the fact in can lay down Web reliably, then why not just suspect Sticky Web? It's evident that that's the problem people have, Web + not being able to Spin cuz Doublade/not being able to Defog cuz Braviary, and even though Shuckle is the most reliable setter of Sticky Web, Leavanny is only mildly less effective at setting it up since it can Magic Bounce back Taunt and can live any hit bar Cincinno's with Sash, or you could go Defensive with Mental Herb. My point is that even if Shuckle goes there are still other reliable ways to get Web down, even if they aren't as reliable as Shuckle was.

If reliable Web isn't the issue then my bad.

Reliable web is the issue, but the only pokemon who can give reliable web out of the 5 pokemon in NU/RU with sticky web is shuckle. So if people still want to run a sticky web team, which if they can figure out how to get webs up, will still be good, then if we ban sticky web as a whole they wont be able to. Also suspecting web as a whole will mean that it is also banned in NU, if I'm interpreting this right from the Venomoth ban. Now if we just ban shuckle which is the real problem then people can still try to run web teams.

 

[aVocado]

Well if the issue with Shuckle isn't the fact that it can lay down Rocks and Web reliably but the fact in can lay down Web reliably, then why not just suspect Sticky Web? It's evident that that's the problem people have, Web + not being able to Spin cuz Doublade/not being able to Defog cuz Braviary, and even though Shuckle is the most reliable setter of Sticky Web, Leavanny is only mildly less effective at setting it up since it can Magic Bounce back Taunt and can live any hit bar Cincinno's with Sash, or you could go Defensive with Mental Herb. My point is that even if Shuckle goes there are still other reliable ways to get Web down, even if they aren't as reliable as Shuckle was.

If reliable Web isn't the issue then my bad.

Assuming a ban comes out of this suspect, if it is shown in the future that Sticky Web itself is or becomes the problem and not merely the quality of the vessel setting it up, then a test on the move itself will ensue and if that ban goes through, Shuckle will immediately be unbanned.

 

[Ningildo]

Afro Smash, please click the link (it's in "EonX's " in my earlier post) next time. It would be appreciated as it helps my post make sense.

And well, what I wanted to say back to that was already said. Reliable webs (by a setter who doesn't get OHKO'd by RELEVANT threats, lol Rampardos) are the issue, not one who actually needs to predict to avoid Taunt, is massive set up bait for most Pokemon, and can actually get bypassed by some relevant things, like Cincinno and lol Fake Out Ambipom (Leavanny). But as Shuckle is the only reliable setter, it is the only issue in this case.

 

[Afro Smash]

But Arikado if it becomes apparent before the ban then there's no need to ban it.

Ningildo Ambipom is rare, as are Taunt users faster than base 92, the only one which commonly runs it is Archeops, which is rare itself. The only somewhat common thing that can stop it is Cincinno. Then there's the possibility to run Mental Herb as well with Phys Def. I urge you to test it before writing it off.

And I thought the link provided in your first post would just take me to EonX's Page since it was his name that was the link.

Oh and even with Web down the teams aren't impossible to beat, since Levitate and Flying mons that I gave examples of in my previous post can devastate most Web reliant mons, Gligar + Golbat are bulky enough to find a bunch of opps to Defog, and whilst this will usually lead to sacking a mon, its worth it since web teams without web are easy pray to standard offense. And every ream using Shuckle is essentially 5-6 match up (this applies to any mon, but especially Shuckle since it offers no Offensive presence).

 

[MikeDawg]

I think that the "these mons beat sticky web team" arguments are super-duper flawed.

The reason being that a "sticky web team" does not have to be shuckle/doublade/braviary/exploud/hitmonlee/magneton

Any mon can be fit onto a sticky web team. It's not like these teams have the greatest defensive synergy/presence to begin with. Replacing a mon won't, for example, disrupt some kind of integral balance.

Shove a meloetta on your team and suddenly mons like rotom and moltres aren't huge problems. Need more moltres defense? Use an omastar or a barbaracle or kabutops. Even changing something like magneton to a scarf set or a sturdy eviolite set can lure an eliminate threats like this. A pursuit user can eliminate xatu.

Essentially, referring to a Web team as a standard entity that is beaten by x and y mons is rather illogical reasoning.

 

[Aerow]

I feel this guy needs some more attention:

Stats: 82 HP / 121 Atk / 119 Def / 69 SpA / 59 SpD / 71 Spe

Tyrantrum @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Stone Edge
- Fire Fang / Crunch
- Earthquake

I started using Tyrantrum a while ago because my team was very weak to Flying-types, and I also wanted something that isn't too reliant on Sticky Web. Solution? Tyrantrum.

Strong 121 Attack, good physical bulk with 82 HP / 119 Defense and also a decent base 71 Speed. After one Dragon Dance, Tyrantrum hits extremely hard, especially with a Life Orb equipped, and outspeeds most threats, even with a Adamant nature. Tyrantrum also has a decent ability in Strong Jaw, which boosts the power of Jaw-based moves like Crunch, Fire Fang, Ice Fang, Thunder Fang and Poison Fang by 50%. Tyrantrum's movepool isn't the greatest, but it isn't that bad either. Its movepool includes moves such as all Jaw-based moves (as mentioned above), Earthquake, Stone Edge, Dragon Dance and Head Smash.

If you manage to set up two Dragon Dance, Tyrantrum even OHKOes Physical walls like Aromatisse without Stealth Rock. Tyrantrum is also incredibly strong with only one Dragon Dance, outspeeding and OHKOing threats like Virizion and Cobalion.

Tyrantrum's biggest problem is Pokemon such as Hitmonlee and Zoroark, both packing powerful priority moves in Mach Punch and Sucker Punch. Both Mach Punch and Sucker Punch from Hitmonlee and Zoroark respectively does about 50%. This means Tyrantrum can easily be worn down, especially with Life Orb recoil. A Pokemon such as Aromatisse is therefore a good option. Not only can she Wishpass to Tyrantrum, she also deals with Zoroark and Hitmonlee. Doublade though is a problem too unless you manage to set up two Dragon Dances. Tyrantrum doesn't excactly have the greatest Special Defense either, only having base 59 SpD.

Tyrantrum isn't a fantastic Pokemon, but it is in my opinion fairly underrated by most people, and deserves to be used much more. Best thing with Tyrantrum is that it works well even without Sticky Web.

 

[Ningildo]

But Arikado if it becomes apparent before the ban then there's no need to ban it.

Ningildo Ambipom is rare, as are Taunt users faster than base 92, the only one which commonly runs it is Archeops, which is rare itself. The only somewhat common thing that can stop it is Cincinno. Then there's the possibility to run Mental Herb as well with Phys Def. I urge you to test it before writing it off.

And I thought the link provided in your first post would just take me to EonX's Page since it was his name that was the link.

Oh and even with Web down the teams aren't impossible to beat, since Levitate and Flying mons that I gave examples of in my previous post can devastate most Web reliant mons, Gligar + Golbat are bulky enough to find a bunch of opps to Defog, and whilst this will usually lead to sacking a mon, its worth it since web teams without web are easy pray to standard offense. And every ream using Shuckle is essentially 5-6 match up (this applies to any mon, but especially Shuckle since it offers no Offensive presence).

Cobalion can also run it, Virizion has a Stallbreaker set that uses Taunt, Xatu presents the same issues it does to Shuckle. And while Physically defensive can actually beat common spinners (although Hitmonchan can beat it with Fire Punch, but Hitmonchan), it only make my biggest problem with Leavanny bigger; it can't stop set up due crappy coverage, while Shuckle gets Encore to go "lol" and switch into a check/counter. And literally every Fire-type or Flying-type ever can force it out, as opposed to just CB Rampardos and Rhyperior for Shuckle. Yes, it can set up SW against Offense with a Focus Sash set and set up in the face of Taunt and Spinners with a physically bulky set. It can't, however, do both. It trades consistent set up for offensive presence and while it is useful for some cases, the fact of the matter is that consistent SW set up is the issue with SW. Something that can't provide that is not going to be an issue, especially if it's set up bait for a variety of mons.

Also, I'm not sold on using defensive Defoggers on Offense o.o If anything I'd use something that can at least deter Braviary from coming in, like Shiftry, as an offensive Defogger.

 

[Afro Smash]

Indeed, but these are the pokemon that benefit most from sticky web, if you're going to run different pokemon you may as well run Spikes.

 

[EonX]

Rotom-C: Slap on a Virizion if you hate it.
Moltres: Kabutops can work as your spinner and check Tres.
Yanmega: hard to accommodate, but Sub+BU Braviary can kinda check it.

all minor changes web teams can make while still abusing Sticky Web.

 

[Aerow]

Many people uses Hidden Power Grass on Moltres though (including me), so I wouldn't say Kabutops is a safe way to deal with Moltres.

 

[Mew2]

Rotom-C: Slap on a Virizion if you hate it.
Moltres: Kabutops can work as your spinner and check Tres.
Yanmega: hard to accommodate, but Sub+BU Braviary can kinda check.

• Rotom-C can burn Virizion I guess you are using Lum Berry but after it is consumed Virizion can't switch.
• Moltres can OHKO Kabutops with HP Grass or Burn it as Moltres is faster than Kabutops. Also Aqua Jet won't kill Moltres unless it took SR damage: 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 187-221 (58.2 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
• Braviary can't check Specs Yanmega which is the most common set in SW teams especially if rocks are up: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Braviary: 194-228 (48 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[Mymble]

• Rotom-C can burn Virizion I guess you are using Lum Berry but after it is consumed Virizion can't switch.
• Moltres can OHKO Kabutops with HP Grass or Burn it as Moltres is faster than Kabutops. Also Aqua Jet won't kill Moltres unless it took SR damage: 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 187-221 (58.2 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
• Braviary can't check Specs Yanmega which is the most common set in SW teams especially if rocks are up: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Braviary: 194-228 (48 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

The problem isn't the specifics. EonX's point is SW can make changes to easily check the Pokemon that aim to beat it without changing the effectiveness of the play style.

 

[Mew2]

The problem isn't the specifics. EonX's point is SW can make changes to easily check the Pokemon that aim to beat it without changing the effectiveness of the play style.

The thing is nothing he mentions is really a check as the examples I mentioned are fairly common (Specs Yanmega being the rarest one), they are checks not really counters.

 

[EonX]

Mew2 most Rotom-C don't run Wisp as they are generally Choiced.

HP Grass on Moltres is valid, but most defensive SubRoost sets run Toxic, not Wisp

Uh, yeah, have fun countering, or even checking, Specs Yanmega if you lack Registeel.

Also, Web teams are offense-based. They're not supposed to counter high-powered offensive threats; they only aim to check them of / when possible.

 

[Mew2]

Mew2 most Rotom-C don't run Wisp as they are generally Choiced.

HP Grass on Moltres is valid, but most defensive SubRoost sets run Toxic, not Wisp

Uh, yeah, have fun countering, or even checking, Specs Yanmega if you lack Registeel.

Also, Web teams are offense-based. They're not supposed to counter high-powered offensive threats; they only aim to check them of / when possible.

Of course HO teams aren't supposed to counter offensive threats, my point is that your examples aren't 100% reliable checks like I just showed. Also if most Rotom-C are choiced then your opponent can predict a switch and volt switch out slowly damaging Virizion. You are right about Specs Yanmega: fast, strong and with key resistances to fighting and grass it's very difficult to counter but in my opinion the best counter aside Registeel is Togetic who can heal the damage thanks to Roost or even set up a NP. Fun calcs:

• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 87-103 (27.7 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
  
• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 87-103 (27.7 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Ancient Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 94-112 (29.9 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
• 0 SpA Togetic Dazzling Gleam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yanmega: 114-135 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• 0 SpA Togetic Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Yanmega: 170-202 (54.3 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  

 

[ForgottenOnes]

So in regards with Shuckle and the Suspect test, i'm pretty sure shuckle is getting banned. But what is viable after shuckle is banned? Will sticky web teams still be viable? Will stall teams make a outbreak? Discuss.

 

[phantom]

Personally, I don't think there's much of a reason for Sticky Web to stay in this meta. Yeah, yeah, I get Shuckle is the sole decent user, but if anything halfway good actually got the move, I'd probably be the same. That's kinda why I'd rather see a blanket ban on the move, but w/e. Who knows, after the test is done and the meta settles, maybe Leavanny webs will be just as thrilling to face as Shuckle webs. I can't say for now, though. The only thing I can say for sure is that Shuckle is 100% broken and needs to go.

As to what will possibly result: I don't think stall teams have really any trouble in this meta. Like at all. So I don't really see their sudden "outbreak" occurring, just rising popularity I suppose. Sticky Web teams tend to affect non-sticky web offensive and bulky offense, that's kinda where the whole broken aspect of the move stems from in my perspective. Once Shuckle is banned (I swear, if it's not...), then I expect to see a greater surge of bulky offense and HO teams that don't have to rely on hax, gimmicks, 50/50s, or Xatu to reliably beat webs, or at least not be put in a shitty match up condition either way. Basically, I look forward to seeing how offense will develop with the absence of Sticky Web. It's the same with how Froslass subdued stall, and not it's basically how Shuckle just kinda ruins most other offense. That's why when I read posts that say "my stall team beats Sticky Web so it's not broken" or in the last test "my offensive team was able to limit Froslass to one layer so it's not broken", it just makes me cringe considering those posts are missing the entire point.

I just feel as if Froslass's grip on the meta hasn't left yet and simply the torch was passed down to Shuckle. The meta is just so warped at the moment that it's really difficult to see what will occur next. Offensive threats that no one really thought were broken before have been amplified as a result of web's omnipresence. So it comes to the point where people think Exploud is suspect worthy. Maybe it is, but I feel as if Webs was the major contributor in shinning the limelight on it, so it probably skewed some perceptions as a result.

 

[EonX]

Mew2, if you're so paranoid about Rotom-C Volt Switching Virizion to death, just slap Jolteon in one of the filler spots. That natural Speed is really good for Web teams in case something does happen to the Webs Shuckle sets and it can't get it back up for whatever reason. I get that you want to counter or have a hard check for everything. But that's not how HO works. HO is basically this: Get hazards up. Bring in offensive mon A. Deal as much damage as possible before dying. Bring in next offensive mon. Rinse and repeat. It's simply predicated on dealing as much damage as possible with each offensive threat. I'm pretty sure I said something similar to this in the last NP thread, but as I'm too lazy to go find it, I'm just going to say something close to it.

Right now, you basically have to run Stall, Rhyperior, and / or Xatu to keep Sticky Web from ruining your team. In an ideal metagame, I shouldn't have to run one of those playstyles just to be successful. I should be able to use any playstyle I wish, whether it be HO, Balance, or Stall, and be just as successful with any of those playstyles. If you have to run a very specific threat (CB Rhyperior, Xatu, CB Rampardos if you want to go that far) or specific playstyle (Stall or TR) just to have a chance against the dominant playstyle atm, I'm pretty sure that means something is wrong.

 

[Mew2]

Mew2, if you're so paranoid about Rotom-C Volt Switching Virizion to death, just slap Jolteon in one of the filler spots. That natural Speed is really good for Web teams in case something does happen to the Webs Shuckle sets and it can't get it back up for whatever reason. I get that you want to counter or have a hard check for everything. But that's not how HO works. HO is basically this: Get hazards up. Bring in offensive mon A. Deal as much damage as possible before dying. Bring in next offensive mon. Rinse and repeat. It's simply predicated on dealing as much damage as possible with each offensive threat.

I know how HO works (in fact I made my reqs in the Froslass and Shuckle suspect tests with SW HO) and at first it was a bit hard to let something die instead of switching into my walls because I am more of a defensive player. You still don't get my point, countering or even checking Rotom-C, Moltres and Yanmega isn't as easy as saying "Slap X Pokémon to check Y" because they often run moves that fuck your supposed checks and a good prediction ends their life making them extremly hard to check. But I agree with you, aside of those 3 pokes (and Swellow maybe) there isn't a clear way to deal with SW teams unless you run a well built full stall team, Xatu or TR making Shuckle a broken mon in the tier.

 

[Jaiho]

Ok, I have just gotten reqs, and quite honestly, I don't know how i feel about Shuckle

On one hand, Shuckle builds a very powerful team archetype that bones unprepared offense teams. It guarantees one hazard, giving the user an early step up over their opponent. Webs is an easy move to click vs. offense, while rocks are a nice bonus and are necessary vs. more stally teams who don't give a shit about webs. Certain teams nearly auto-lose at team preview upon seeing Shuckle. Also, some people don't get that Shuckle doesn't HAVE to lead, and the CB Rhyperior you use to beat it may be faced down by the Hitmonlee or Magneton Web teams commonly have. Finally, Shuckle's presence seems to have polarized most of the ladder, with most teams being either Sticky Web teams or T-spikes stall.

However, Sticky Web teams aren't unbeatable. They usually don't do too well against the aforementioned stall teams, and are VERY dependent on Webs staying up. Teams that use Gligar as defogger do a fine job against webs teams, since gligar can come in vs. many common physical Web sweepers (i.e. Hitmonlee, Zangoose, Doublade, Emboar) and getting off the defog. Shuckle can very rarely get hazards up multiple times a game, so getting the defog off is often times gg. Also, i feel that using Shuckle is putting all your eggs in one basket. Since a smart player will restrict it to one hazard, you are basically depriving your team of rocks, since often times you cant afford to not go for Sticky Web. Web teams are also ironically very weak to 'mons that are immune to Webs. Yanmega, Moltres, and Braviary does a number to every Sticky Web team i have seen, especially since all of them are rather bulky and have to be taken down w/ priority moves, sometimes multiple of them. Personally I found using no webs HO much easier than using Sticky Web teams, since Sticky Web teams compound similar weaknesses, especially fire. Something like Scarf Delphox forces a Webs team to sack something everytime it gets a free switch.

Shuckle is borderline broken imo, possibly going one way or the other. Despite the holes in the Sticky Web playstyle, Shuckle gives it unparalleled support and makes it threatening, and holds its team on its back every game. Personally, I think I am going to vote abstain, but I'm leaning towards no ban, despite the fact that ~90% of people. I could be swayed to pro-ban though.

Thanks to Don Honchkrorleone for a team
Thanks to Molk for New Breed 's team