np: RU Stage 3 - Like a Boss

[Furosuto]

Thinking about joining the RU metagame, and wow. There are a lot of fighting mons in RU. Gallade, hariyama, medicham, hitmonlee, primeape, and poliwrath? That's a lot of guys to choose from.

Personally, I'm looking forward to using primeape and hariyama. Yama can easily wall hail teams and fire sweepers with that awesome thick fat ability and primeape can be quite annoying with a scarf, and CC.

 

[Oglemi]

ps the round has effectively been pushed until December 12, 11:59 pm EST.

 

[alamaster]

^ Good, I've been busy and unable to ladder much.

I might be in the minority here but Rhydon is a really tough pokemon to deal with it seems. I'm not sure if Slowking beats him, he's pretty tough to take down and hits like a truck. Do you guys think he's too much for the metagame? Maybe it's just my team but I always lose a couple of pokemon to him and he sets up SR to boot.

 

[gali]

I think I've seen 2 Rhydon in my~250 RU matches.

 

[dSapper]

^ Good, I've been busy and unable to ladder much.

I might be in the minority here but Rhydon is a really tough pokemon to deal with it seems. I'm not sure if Slowking beats him, he's pretty tough to take down and hits like a truck. Do you guys think he's too much for the metagame? Maybe it's just my team but I always lose a couple of pokemon to him and he sets up SR to boot.

If you're having that much trouble with him you should make some adjustments. Slowking definetly beats him. What's your current team? I like carrying HP Grass on stuff like honchkrow, you could try that :p

 

[tagama]

Rhydon is a tough pokemon to take out and can easily set up stealth rocks. It is also one of those counters to hunchkrow which has been a major threat to teams. Slowking isn't even a good counter because it is slower than Rhydon and Rhydon has access to megahorn. However, it does not have solid rock, does not have any recovery moves, is slow, and is weak in special defense. Yea, often times I have to sacrifice a poke but right after that, I can send in pokes that threaten it such as tangriowth,sharpedo, rotom-c,porygon-z, etc. If it switches in and out, it gets worn down by hazards which make it more easier to KO as it does not have leftovers. Sure it is a threat but its not necessarily broken as it has alot of weaknesses

 

[gali]

Rhydon doesn't like taking any Grass- or Water-type moves, Physical or Special.

 

[EonADS]

Slowking really only beats Max Adamant Rhydon if it's at full health and no hazards are on the field, provided Rhydon carries Megahorn (does somewhere around 75%-88%). EQ still does ~50%, so you're not switching in and surviving if there are hazards up because Rhydon is faster than you. And that's with 144 Defense EVs; full special takes an OHKO from Megahorn with Stealth Rock or Spikes on the field while EQ always 2HKOs with SR or Spikes and usually doesn't even need either.

The best part? All of these calcs are with Leftovers as Rhydon's item, meaning it counts for all Eviolite sets too.

Slowking is a (pretty terrible) check for Rhydon at best, really. You're better off using Cofagrigus and WoWing it. Poliwrath can also work in a pinch, it's decently bulky and it resists both Stone Edge and Megahorn. The RestTalk set walls it completely while the SubPunch set only takes a 2HKO from Earthquake if SR is present.

Do I think it's broken? Of course not. It's 4x weak to Grass and Water, and its SpD is absolutely pitiful. Not to mention that I've seen maybe fifteen in what amounts to somewhere around 1000 battles across my alts; it's obviously not common.

 

[alamaster]

I thought it was more common then that to be honest, since for players above the 1200 mark it's like 11th in usage, and I've seen it quite a bit. I'm thinking it's probably my team that is just super Rhydon weak, as nothing can really switch in without taking some damage but Hp grass Honch sounds pretty cool, I might try that out. Wowing is seems like a good idea too. Guess I've been unlucky seeing a decent amount of Rhydon on the ladder lol.

Entei is another pokemon I always have trouble with, it's always a guessing game whether it will Flare Blitz or Extremespeed for me so it's tough if I make the wrong choice.

 

[EonADS]

Idk, I haven't exactly kept track. It could be more. Still, compared to the RU staples like Entei and Uxie it's a lot less common.

You're in luck then, RestTalk Poliwrath makes a great counter to both.

 

[lars]

Perhaps Rhydon can be difficult to take down, but generally one of the stipulations I have for my teams is a bulky grass or water type which usually makes it easier to beat. I've seen it sometimes. I'll estimate I've seen 15 in 200 matches. Steelix and aggron are much more common

 

[Megapants]

toxic spikes are a great way to keep rhydon in check, as it allows you to deal with it in a much less direct manner. gligar absolutely walls rhydon to hell and back, and can switch into most anything it has to offer and can stall it to death with roost.

another respectable switchin is weezing, as its immune to eq, resists megahorn, and is immune to toxic and can burn it with wow. however all of weezings best attacking options - sludge bomb, tbolt, flamethrower/fire blast - are all ineffective against rhydon, but rhydon is going to do diddly back so it will be forced out in a jiffy.

slowking, claydol, and tangrowth are also effective checks to rhydon, but are all hit pretty hard by megahorn. but megahorn can be a risky move against a lot of the things rhydon tries to check, so its fairly easy to outmaneuver it with some smart thinking.

 

[Tomahawk]

If I can still 'nominate' Pokemon, I will now: Moltres.

Moltres is a beast. Fyi, the set I'm talking about is Fire Blast / Hidden Power Grass / Air Slash / Roost. It literally has no safe switchins besides Slowking. Let's take a look at the usage stats:

Hide

| 1 | Claydol | 4534 | 21.942% | 3922 | 22.371% | 2HKOed by HP Grass or Fire Blast.
| 2 | Entei | 3575 | 17.301% | 2952 | 16.838% | 2HKOed by Air Slash
| 3 | Uxie | 3490 | 16.889% | 3229 | 18.418% | 2HKOed by Fire Blst
| 4 | Honchkrow | 3433 | 16.613% | 2761 | 15.749% | OHKOed by Fire Blast
| 5 | Qwilfish | 3361 | 16.265% | 3046 | 17.374% | Chance of being OHKOed by Air Slash after SR
| 6 | Rotom | 3314 | 16.038% | 2865 | 16.342% | OHKOed by Fire Blast
| 7 | Gallade | 3303 | 15.984% | 2728 | 15.561% | OHKOed by Air Slash
| 8 | Moltres | 2452 | 11.866% | 2105 | 12.007% | OHKOed by Air Slash after SR
| 9 | Porygon-Z | 2426 | 11.740% | 2038 | 11.625% | OHKOed by Fire Blast
| 10 | Slowking | 2294 | 11.101% | 1883 | 10.741% | avoids the 2HKO from Hidden Power Grass, does ~40%.
| 11 | Sceptile | 2223 | 10.758% | 1855 | 10.581% | obviously ohkoed by both stab moves
| 12 | Hitmonchan | 2146 | 10.385% | 1821 | 10.387% | Air Slash OHKOes
| 13 | Krookodile | 2090 | 10.114% | 1745 | 9.954% | fire blast or hp grass ohkoes
| 14 | Sharpedo | 2023 | 9.790% | 1613 | 9.201% | hp grass ohkoes
| 15 | Rotom-C | 1964 | 9.504% | 1768 | 10.085% | fire blast
| 16 | Aggron | 1809 | 8.754% | 1485 | 8.470% | ohkoed by fire blast
| 17 | Lilligant | 1777 | 8.599% | 1477 | 8.425% | fire blast
| 18 | Clefable | 1768 | 8.556% | 1395 | 7.957% | 2hkoed by fire blast
| 19 | Tangrowth | 1696 | 8.208% | 1418 | 8.088% | fire blast
| 20 | Ferroseed | 1673 | 8.096% | 1498 | 8.545% | lol...
| 21 | Omastar | 1651 | 7.990% | 1375 | 7.843% | hp grass ohkoes
| 22 | Typhlosion | 1651 | 7.990% | 1413 | 8.060% | air slash 2hkoes
| 23 | Accelgor | 1597 | 7.728% | 1362 | 7.769% | any stab move ohkoes
| 24 | Bouffalant | 1550 | 7.501% | 1272 | 7.256% | ohkoed by fire blast after sr and 1 layer of spikes
| 25 | Hitmonlee | 1535 | 7.428% | 1269 | 7.238% | air slash ohkoes
| 26 | Steelix | 1467 | 7.099% | 1381 | 7.877% | fire blast
| 27 | Crustle | 1387 | 6.712% | 1297 | 7.398% | fire blast ohkoes
| 28 | Cofagrigus | 1370 | 6.630% | 1203 | 6.862% | fire blast 2hkoes. fire blast ohkoes after sr and two layers of spikes 100%.
| 29 | Dusknoir | 1360 | 6.581% | 1199 | 6.839% | 252/252+ are 2hkoed by fire blast, subpunch are ohkoed by fire blast after sr and spikes
| 30 | Lanturn | 1327 | 6.422% | 1125 | 6.417% | hp grass 2hkoes after sr and 1 layer of spikes

So, from the top 30, the only thing not 2hkoed after sr and 1 layer of spikes is Slowking.

 

[Avira]

I'll provide damage calculations later as I am currently busy, but I would like to emphasize Porygon-Z's strength in this metagame. The Nasty Plot set destroys stall and offensive teams have trouble switching into the Scarf set, which can severely damage something and then just switch back in later to wreak more havoc.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I have a question Tomohawk, why are you assuming that a) SR and Spikes have been let up, let alone not spun, b) that your opponent isnt carrying a Scarfer that can easily force Moltres out, c) SR isn't up on your side of the field, d) that the opponent has to switch in to Moltres in the first place. Clefable for instance dgaf about the 2HKO when it can paralyze Moltres, Protect for a turn of leftovers and then Wish+Protect for health while Accelgor dgaf about Moltres at all when its recommended third move is HP Rock and it will always outspeed Moltres bar a Scarf set.

 

[New World Order]

I'll provide damage calculations later as I am currently busy, but I would like to emphasize Porygon-Z's strength in this metagame. The Nasty Plot set destroys stall and offensive teams have trouble switching into the Scarf set, which can severely damage something and then just switch back in later to wreak more havoc.

Here's a calculation:

+2 Timid 252 Adaptability Tri Attack vs 252/252 Sassy Steelix: 61.9% - 72.9%

That is the only calculation necessary for NP Porygon-Z, if that was difficult to understand, it translates to Porygon-Z is fucking strong.

I shall now provide damage calcs for Modest Choice Specs Max Special Attack Porygon-Z:

Every one of these calcs is vs 252/252 +Nature

Hide

Tri Attack vs Claydol 58% - 68.5%
Tri Attack vs Entei 59% - 69.6%
Tri Attack vs Uxie 50.3% - 59.3%
Tri Attack vs Honchkrow 77.2% - 91.1%
Tri Attack vs Qwilfish 91% - 107.2%
Dark Pulse vs Rotom 82.2% - 97.4%
Tri Attack vs Gallade 56.5% - 67.1%
Tri Attack vs Moltres 62% - 72.9%
Tri Attack vs Porygon-Z 68.4% - 80.7%
Tri Attack vs Slowking 50.8% - 59.9%
Tri Attack vs Sceptile 69.2% - 81.4%
Tri Attack vs Hitmonchan 65.8% - 77.6%
Tri Attack vs Krookodile 82.1% - 96.9%
Tri Attack vs Sharpedo 104.7% - 123.3%
Tri Attack vs Rotom-C 63% - 74.1%
Hidden Power Fighting vs Aggron 166.3% - 196.5%
Tri Attack vs Lilligant 73.3% - 87.8%
Tri Attack vs Clefable 57.9% - 68.5%
Tri Attack vs Tangrowth 78.7% - 93.1%
Hidden Power Fighting vs Ferroseed 46.6% - 55.5%
Hidden Power Fighting vs Omastar 68% - 80.2%
Tri Attack vs Typhlosion 66.1% - 77.8%
Tri Attack vs Accelgor 79.7% - 94%
Tri Attack vs Bouffalant 55.8% - 66.0%
Tri Attack vs Hitmonlee 65.8% - 77.6%
Hidden Power Fighting vs Steelix 81.4% - 96%
Tri Attack vs Crustle 37.2% - 43.9%
Dark Pulse vs Cofagrigus 64.4% - 76.3%
Dark Pulse vs Dusknoir 65.3% - 76.9%
Tri Attack vs Lanturn 55.5% - 65.6%
Tri Attack vs Galvantula 79.7% - 94%
Tri Attack vs Durant 50.9% - 60%
Tri Attack vs Sandslash 85.9% - 101.1%
Hidden Power Fighting vs Eviolite Rhydon 47.3% - 56%
Tri Attack vs Medicham 95.1% - 112.3%
Hidden Power Fighting vs Kabutops 72.2% - 85.2%
Tri Attack vs Drapion 74.4% - 87.8%
Tri Attack vs Gligar 83.2% - 98.2%
Tri Attack vs Poliwrath 59.4% - 70.3%
Tri Attack vs Eviolite Munchlax 33.3% - 39.7%
Tri Attack vs Electivire 67.2% - 79.1%
Tri Attack vs Sawsbuck 73.1% - 86.3%
Tri Attack vs Archeops 39.3% - 46.3%
Tri Attack vs Feraligatr 63.6% - 75.4%
Tri Attack vs Scolipede 82.7% - 97.5%
Tri Attack vs Primeape 79.6% - 94%
Tri Attack vs Eviolite Snover 59.9% - 71%
Tri Attack vs Ludicolo 58.8% - 69.2%
Tri Attack vs Scyther 71.5% - 84.3%
Tri Attack vs Braviary 63.4% - 74.8%
Tri Attack vs Manectric 84.3% - 99.4%
Tri Attack vs Swellow 98.1% - 116%
Hidden Power Fighting vs Klinklang 63.6% - 75.3%
Hidden Power Fighting vs Eviolite Magneton 55.9% - 65.8%
Tri Attack vs Rotom-F 63% - 74.1%
Tri Attack vs Mandibuzz 51.9% - 61.3%
Tri Attack vs Hariyama 58.9% - 69.5%

 

[lars]

Not that the above calcs are not impressive, but he actually needs to outspeed all of that stuff to kill it. Base 90 is good, but he's definitely not out running plenty of things that can take him down. I think Agility Pory-Z is better personally, it certainly needs a bit more support in wall breaking/weakening earlier in the game, but has the best chance of sweeping.

I have a question Tomohawk, why are you assuming that a) SR and Spikes have been let up, let alone not spun, b) that your opponent isnt carrying a Scarfer that can easily force Moltres out, c) SR isn't up on your side of the field, d) that the opponent has to switch in to Moltres in the first place. Clefable for instance dgaf about the 2HKO when it can paralyze Moltres, Protect for a turn of leftovers and then Wish+Protect for health while Accelgor dgaf about Moltres at all when its recommended third move is HP Rock and it will always outspeed Moltres bar a Scarf set.

^And that's why Moltres is far from OP... Also priority is far from rare in the tier, and with 90 base speed your not exactly a cheetah (especially since I'm pretty sure you ran your calcs with a Modest Nature) so you don't even need a scarf to take him down. I'm not sure what constitutes a "safe" switch in, but

| 22 | Typhlosion | 1651 | 7.990% | 1413 | 8.060% | air slash 2hkoes

I can survive the OHKO and easily OHKO back (HP rock like 100% of the time vs all varients - and pretty obvious with any SR)... I'm feeling pretty "safe"

 

[Tomahawk]

Well, if you can get Moltres in on something that it forces out, which is quite a lot, nothing bar Slowking can safely switchin. Revenge killing isn't exactly a good way of dealing with Moltres either, as you'll have to sac something every time it comes in. Also, Moltres is still very dangerous without Spikes, as the only change is Lanturn not being 2HKOed and the OHKO on SubPunch Dusknoir and Bouffalant. Also, if you carry a dedicated spinner like Hitmontop or a Pursuite like Krookodile you can spin rocks rather easily. Try Pearl's Save the world and you'll see how powerful Moltres is.

 

[New World Order]

Not that the above calcs are not impressive, but he actually needs to outspeed all of that stuff to kill it. Base 90 is good, but he's definitely not out running plenty of things that can take him down. I think Agility Pory-Z is better personally, it certainly needs a bit more support in wall breaking/weakening earlier in the game, but has the best chance of sweeping.

Keep in mind that every Pokemon listed above has been given 252 HP / 252 SpD and a + Nature. In reality, most of those Pokemon do not resist in bulk, and most of those are, in fact, OHKOs. The Pokemon that are bulky enough to survive an OHKO are usually slower, and will get 2HKOd anyways. Literally every Pokemon on there gets 2HKOd with Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes, bar none. Essentially, if Specs Porygon-Z gets in safely, something dies, no 2 ways around it.

 

[EonADS]

^ So, what you're telling me is that Specs Porygon-Z effectively 2HKOs every single Pokemon in RU except for Eviolite Munchlax with the correct move.

Sheesh. No effective switch-ins whatsoever. I think I know what I'm basing my next team around...

Try Pearl's Save the world and you'll see how powerful Moltres is.

Your choice of adjective there speaks volumes. Powerful, not broken.

Also, "a dedicated spinner like Hitmontop" won't happen. Hitmontop is UU, and of the Rapid Spinners in the teir, only three are even worth using in my opinion.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

j/s but Victreebel 1 or 2HKOs the entire metagame (the entire game bar Heatran) in the Sun after a Growth. Doesnt mean its broken.

 

[Nails]

victreebel also has to boost in order to 2hko the meta. p-z doesn't.

 

[Steamroll]

P-Z is gonna be a threat to deal with this round. Victreebel 1) needs sun for speed and 2) needs growth for the attack boost in order to start denting things. You also need to vacate a slot to keep sun up and hope they don't revenge you the turn the sun stops.

The fact that Pory-Z can 2hko the meta without specs or nasty plot only scrapes the bottom of the barrel in terms of potential. I don't want to see it get a nasty plot in AT ALL.

 

[alamaster]

Well, if you can get Moltres in on something that it forces out, which is quite a lot, nothing bar Slowking can safely switchin. Revenge killing isn't exactly a good way of dealing with Moltres either, as you'll have to sac something every time it comes in. Also, Moltres is still very dangerous without Spikes, as the only change is Lanturn not being 2HKOed and the OHKO on SubPunch Dusknoir and Bouffalant. Also, if you carry a dedicated spinner like Hitmontop or a Pursuite like Krookodile you can spin rocks rather easily. Try Pearl's Save the world and you'll see how powerful Moltres is.

Yeah I gotta agree with this, I've been using Moltres with spikes support and it is incredibly deadly. Then again I've been using Scarf and just spamming Fire Blast and it's been working really well. Even with just Scarf people have a ton of trouble switching in, I can only imagine how tough the Life Orber is.

Pory-Z will be a force for sure, it reminds me a lot of when he dropped to UU last gen. I remember the Sub Nasty Plot set I used a lot and it was pretty lethal. He's one of those pokemon that can run pretty much any sweeper set (Choiced, setup, life orb) each with different counters, kind of like Heracross too.

Edit: I didn't even realise Pory-Z was already down in RU, I've never seen one!!

 

[Style_Dota]

I've wanted to give Unburden Hitmonlee a go ever since the round came out. Not too sure how well he's fairing though, since it seems the standard Qwilfish/Gligar/Uxie core shits on it like no other.
Seems to me though the reason why PZ is raping so much face is because the main cores are designed to handle physical threats. Even looking at something like Scarfed Moltres, the thing gets walled and back by Munchlax if it's offensive (though I will admit, with the lack of specially defensive steel types, PZ is pretty much a dominating force right now)