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Metagame NP: RU Stage 6: Tunak Tunak Tun (but faster) [Sharpedo Banned]

Discussion in 'RarelyUsed' started by atomicllamas, Sep 21, 2017.

  1. atomicllamas

    atomicllamas but then what's left of me?
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    RU Co-Leader

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    RU's 4th Public Test

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    It has come to our attention that many in the community believe Sharpedo is deserving of a suspect test. As always, if you'd like to see some in depth reasoning as to why this Pokemon is being suspected, there are some paragraphs below written about why Sharpedo in particular was chosen. The suspect test will last 10 days and the deadline will be at 11:59 PM EST on the 1st of October, assuming the ladder is up by the end of the night.

    The reqs will be 2800 coil with a B value of 9.0, but you will need to finish reqs within 62 games. Some sample values are below. I will know if you reset your win loss, given its determined by GXE, do not attempt to game the system you will be infracted if I catch you, and I will. A GXE of 77.5 is the required minimum.

    To find out how many matches it'll take for you specifically, take your GXE, and put it into this formula

    =9.0/log2(40*GXE/2800)

    Sharpedo Suspect Reasoning (open)


    With access to Speed Boost, a potent dual STAB combination, and the ability to go Special, Physical or even mixed, Sharpedo finds itself to be one of the most threatening pokemon in the RU metagame. With Mantine leaving the tier, not only did Sharpedo lose one of its stronger Checks / Counters, but the hazard game has shifted in favor of spike stack, the kind of team on which Sharpedo excels. Sharpedo puts a great amount of team building stress on opposing offensive teams, often requiring a trade at the minimum in order for the opposing team to beat it. The previously mentioned customizability of Sharpedo also puts a lot of pressure on Balance, often requiring two separate checks to have outs against all possible Sharpedo sets, but even then must be wary of being overloaded over the course of the game checking other pokemon.


    NP Song:



    Tagging The Immortal for a suspect ladder (sharpedo is allowed) Thanks!

    psa: do not shit post, it will be deleted and possibly infracted
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2017
  2. Rakan

    Rakan Let's dance!
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    I've been saying it since we voted on it ages ago, Sharpedo is just so unhealthy for the tier it's absolutely mind blowing. When building teams that are offensively oriented I am always forced to keep sharpedo in the back of my mind, and even then, it's hard to make a team where you aren't weak to one of the variants, either special or physical. Especially now that mantine has left the tier, special sharpedo has become more common and better, as it shuts down things like Chesnaught and Bewear that the physical variant has more difficulty with. With sharpedo gone, offense teambuilding will be freed up immensely, allowing for more creative builds that aren't required to have more than one check to sharpedo. The fact that it gets a free late game wincon with speed boost or a snowball win mid game or early game after landing a ko and gaining speed boosts is just overkill. You can't even revenge it with priority outside of draining kiss from the now uncommon comfey and the random vacuum wave from toxicroak, since it resists common priority such as sucker punch and ice shard, as well as aqua jet. It's frailty isn't an argument to keep it in the tier because its offensive prowess with speed boost, fantastic dual stab + coverage, and ability to go physical, special, or even mixed, is just way to damn good.

    I probably won't have time nor the motivation to ladder but I think the majority of players will agree with me that shark is just too much and needs to go.

    My 2 cents aka a goddamn book on the subject
  3. teachable

    teachable

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    Everyone probably knows this stuff but I guess for anyone who hasn't been building/playing offense I'll give some thoughts:
    yeah offensive checks to sharpedo are pretty rare and shaky at best, since I mostly have been messing around with trying to get offense working in the tier I've basically been forced to run a handful of mons to not lose at team preview to shark.
    • Zygarde-10% - Even banded, this mon needs like rocks + 1 life orb hit to 100% KO shark with E-Speed. Also don't really like running Banded Zydoge currently.
    • Shaymin - Better hope spikes + SR aren't up, as that puts it in range of Ice Beam.
    • Comfey - Fun mon, kinda hard to fit onto most teams with queen being able to run sludge wave now + all the other steel types it had trouble with still exist.
    • Mega Banette - not even really a check, just a way for offense to not auto-lose to shark; you have to trade mons with it lol.
    • Linoone - Does a decent enough chunk, can usually revenge
    • Gardevoir - With Scarf, works OK if you can get it in on a +0 shark or a special shark; however once again gotta hope you haven't taken any residual from hazards or you could be in hydro range.
    • Feraligatr - Decent enough Shark check if it's healthy, but unless it has some residual damage your best case scenario is a trade from a max roll Waterfall + 2 LO hits.
    • Bewear - Loses to special shark, gotta pray.
    • Durant - ^^^

    Bulky offense has a decent more chunk of reliable checks, stuff like Escavalier/Snorlax/Porygon2/Milotic, but those mons typically feel like too much dead weight on straight offense/HO builds.
    Otherwise, there's some gimicky stuff like Z Crystal mons that are faster than +0 Shark (Lazzle + Melo) but honestly, I don't need to say why that isn't an actual check to Shark considering it can get a boost while revenging something or play mindgames to waste the Z-Move and then just win.
    However, stuff that is faster than shark at +1, e.g. Shaymin, Flygon, or Gardy w/ scarf, can be positioned so that they get in on a Shark at +0 and kill it but this almost, in my opinion, requires your opponent to misplay to allow something like that to happen; if your team is weak enough to shark where this is your check, hopefully it'll be brought in soon enough to get to +1 before these mons can come in. I guess the counter argument is that you should give enough offensive pressure where this doesn't happen? But I'm not sure how I feel about that.

    Also in a similar vein: when teambuilding more offensive teams and looking for a cleaner, I kinda of find thinking "Anything other than shark here would be silly, it does XYZ's job but better" which really kinda sucks from a teambuilding aspect. It really is the best cleaner in the tier.
  4. 4ss

    4ss

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    Yes, counters exist for offense, special toxicroak and comfey being the best options imo, and other counters exist like gurdurr and (dare I say it) hitmonchan. In other words, there are less than viable / lower tier mons that serve very little purpose outside of beating down the shark (personally I've been running chan for spinner after mantine's departure, but I'm a fool). A Pokemon is definitely unhealthy for the tier if it forces the use of less viable/lower tier options just to beat it. So I will be voting ban.
  5. BlueThaSavior

    BlueThaSavior

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    I say keep it never have a problem facing this thing in RU. I have a feeling that it will get banned tho
    Dovahhkiin64 and King Wynaut like this.
  6. Jaajgko

    Jaajgko

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    Does people have Replays showing the match-up it has vs offense please ?
  7. noobcubed

    noobcubed

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    Are you primarily a stall player by any chance?

    I think this underlines part of the problem. RU has shifted in a pretty bulky direction over the last month or two. But, almost without people realising it, this is largely because Sharpedo forces you to run bulk because offense cannot deal with it - most offensive mons are OHKO'ed, and priority isn't too common within the tier (or when it does occur, Sharpedo resists it). I think people have stopped running hyper-offense teams because they just do not work in this metagame. And that's largely because of Sharpedo. When one Pokemon warps a metagame to that extent, it's probably time to give that Pokemon the boot.
  8. Reviloja753

    Reviloja753

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    My only question is why doesn’t HO work even with Sharpedo on the team? I don’t follow RU but if offense gets good again I just might lol
  9. Cheryl.

    Cheryl. Breh
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    Because Sharpedo isn't really that good of a check to other Sharpedo, sure it can probably live one Crunch or a Hydro on the switch, but you cant OHKO Shark with any of your moves unless it's chipped and the matchup is just really awkward tbh. Also because HO can't really fit reliable checks to Sharpedo like other playstyles can, partially due to meta trends causing some checks like Comfey to become more and more mediocre. Overall I've thought for a very long time that Sharpedo poses a very oppressive threat to offense that forces teams to run bulkier mons, which is definitely a sign that Shark is unhealthy and should definitely be banned.
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
  10. MrAldo

    MrAldo (llsshock)
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    Well, tbf thats generally how HO handles Sharpedo in the first place. Have your own Shark and a Pokemon that can take a hit from one type of set (Bewear and Shaymin for physical, Meloetta for special and such) but that is still a risky gamble for obvious reasons. And comfey sucks in this metagame due to many unfavorable trends.

    In general, it is really rough for barebones offense to handle shark consistently. Unless you opt for a bulky Pokemon like p2, that can kill your momentum at any given point, or resort to specific combinations to handle what buffs Sharpedo in Spikes (some people have been resorting to Xatu to handle Ches, but Xatu sucks outside of the Regi/Ches hazard setting combo) so yeah, it can be really overbearing. HO doesnt "lose from turn 1" but is kind of a death sentence.

    Rakan post lines up with my thoughts about Sharpedo so yeah.
  11. Umbra Soul

    Umbra Soul

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    I don't think there is a lot to voice about Sharpedo honestly. It has extremely potent offensive skills, and the ability to kill many Pokemon in tier with some chip damage almost negates the fact it has extremely poor defenses. Speed Boost makes it almost impossible to revenge kill, leaving the best option for killing it in the hands of being already set up or being an extremely bulky team, or just being right outside of kill range for most Pokemon.

    I've been using the Special set for what feels like months now (since before Summer started) and it has been one of the most potent sets when everyone else was still running the Physical shark almost every time. The amount of Pokemon Sharpedo can cover with Special, Physical, and Mixed attacker sets is pretty insane, as most Pokemon can generally be KO'd with a coverage move even if you have a switch in for a resisted attack. You almost have to generally sack a Pokemon sometimes just to have something healthy enough to force it out and or revenge it, or carry Porygon2, Milotic, Umbreon, Registeel, Bewear for Physical / Snorlax for Special, Lord Ferroseed (BECAUSE STILL RANKED ON THE VR RANKINGS), basically a fatass on the team to hope to wall it out. While that's all fine and dandy, we're currently in a metagame where well Spike stacking has risen and residual damage for the fatasses listed above means Shark feasts on them a lot easier as long as pressure can still be maintained.

    Priority is in a pretty lame spot where you have to resort to something like Comfey, Toxicroak, or Honchkrow for the best results. That or you settle for some Pokemon that struggle against the rest of the metagame in some form if you want a mach punch user. I will relent that there are some general Scarfers that can be used to outspeed Shark in a 1 on 1 so they still outspeed after Protect and would force Double Tect shenanigans, or that some strategies I've encountered to try and slow down my Shark on the first turn have been just break their Protect with a Z-move because that has happened and has really annoyed me. However, I feel that Sharpedo most definitely puts way too much pressure in teambuilding to prepare for it and can easily overcome common threats due to how you need to scout out the set to react properly or just throw caution to the wind and hope it's a set you have an advantage over. If I'm getting reqs, I'll most definitely be voting to ban Evil Jaws, and do encourage others to do the same.
    The Idealistic, MrAldo and drumstick like this.
  12. Randomnick

    Randomnick
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    Sharpedo has always been such a threatening mon, and the shift just helped it: Mantine left, Comfey is far worse, Spikes is just so great, with Spikes Sharpedo can just OHKO most of the Offensive Pokemon in the tier, its such a threat for Offense teams in general, since these teams usually have to rely on shaky checks that Shark can beat after some chip damage, Sharpedo is the best cleaner for offense but the best mon to punish offensive teams as well, it's just so hard to use Offense against Sharpedo, and it is still good against Balance, since it only needs a little bit more damage on its checks to start clean the game, and its not dead weight against Stall either, if you can pressure its checks it can work even against the bulkiest build in the game, its just great and everything in the meta seems to benefit it, but the main focus is Shark vs Offense: Unless you run Comfey (which is so awkward rn) or something like Nasty Plot Toxicroak, you gotta have something weakened to beat it, not to mention you're almost always risking a flinch which is kinda annoying, the only mon on Offense able to revenge kill it safely that is not a waste slot most of the time is Zydog with CB ESpeed, KOing Shark after some prior damage. That's basically what Aldo said, you don't lose on preview using Offense vs Shark, but its kind of an unfair matchup, doesn't help that you have to cover both Sharpedo sets I don't see a reason to keep it in the tier, if I get reqs, I'm just voting ban.
    drumstick likes this.
  13. HypnoEmpire

    HypnoEmpire Yokatta...

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    Sharpedo is borked, too stronk, pls ban, etc... I don't have much to share about Sharpedo specifically that hasn't already been voiced. However, there's one thing that I want to talk about, and that is non other than hazards. Hazards are, quite frankly, absolutely ridiculous in the meta right now. It's no surprise that hazards are popular; Mantine, our best hazard remover, has left us. Hazard removal is pretty mediocre aside from Gligar which, despite being a good Pokemon, has a bad matchup vs a lot of our best hazard setters. Other hazard removing options are niche and only really match up well vs specific hazard setters. Here are our hazard setters and removers:
    Show Hide
    Stealth Rock:

    Nidoqueen mini.png Nidoqueen
    Registeel mini.png Registeel
    Gigalith mini.png Gigalith
    Rhyperior mini.png Rhyperior
    Diancie mini.png Diancie

    Spikes:

    Chesnaught mini.png Chesnaught
    Roserade mini.png Roserade
    Mega Glalie mini.png Mega Glalie
    Froslass.png Froslass

    Toxic Spikes:

    Nidoqueen mini.png Nidoqueen
    Dragalge mini.png Dragalge

    Defog:

    Gligar mini.png Gligar
    Moltres mini.png Moltres
    Flygon mini.png Flygon(?)

    Rapid Spin:

    Cryogonal mini.png Cryogonal
    Dhelmise mini.png Dhelmise
    Tsareena mini.png Tsareena
    Donphan mini.png Donphan

    A quick look at the viability rankings makes it clear that hazard removal is very lacking. Gligar only beats a few Stealth Rock setters; it falls flat vs the two best Stealth Rock setters and all of our (Toxic) Spikes setters. Moltres can't switch into any of them except Registeel and Chesnaught. I'm not even sure if Defog on Flygon is considered viable at all, considering its competition w/ Gligar, but if it is then it's probably used on Choice Scarf sets, and I think it's clear what risks are involved by being locked into Defog. All of our Rapid Spinners are subpar, which explains their low rank on the vr, but they have a whole host of issues as hazard removers. Cryogonal can actually go toe to toe with Nidoqueen and a few Spikes users, but it is extremely difficult to ever spin if the opponent has best ghost Doublade. Dhelmise is difficult to spinblock, but it matches up poorly vs Nidoqueen and every Spikes setter bar Chesnaught. Tsareena is the easiest to spinblock and it does poorly vs the best Stealth Rock setters and all of our Spikes setters. Donphan sucks and it usually only gets off one good spin before going down, but at least it beats the best ghost. Pretty much the only other counterplay vs hazards is the use of Magic Bounce Pokemon in Espeon and Xatu. Espeon is a good Pokemon, but it really isn't a reliable response to any hazard setters (wouldn't recommend bulky Espeon). Xatu only really performs so well vs a couple hazard setters. Thankfully for these two, just the presence of these Pokemon can deter the use of hazards, which is useful in its own right.

    Meanwhile, our hazard setters are amazing and fit on all kinds of teams and playstyles. They are very reliable and easy to use. Having a Stealth Rock setter is obvious, but I don't think I would be exaggerating to say that most teams would benefit from having a Spikes setter. Spikes are also incredibly useful in tandem with some of the best cleaners in the tier. Weakening walls like Porygon-2, Milotic, Umbreon, etc. for Pokemon like Salazzle and Zygarde-10% is extremely nice. It also helps a lot vs the various soft checks to these kind of Pokemon. Speaking of which, Sharpedo + Spikes is actually crazy to play against unless you're playing a stally team with good hazard removal. With our hazard removal options being so minimal, with cores like Registeel + Chesnaught + Dragalge around, and with Pokémon like Zygarde-10% and Sharpedo benefitting so much from Spikes, it's hard not to use a Spikes setter.

    With all this in mind, I actually really enjoy the current state of the meta, for the most part. I've always loved hazard-heavy metas, and this one is no exception. If Sharpedo leaves, offensive teams are sure to become more popular as Sharpedo has the capabilities to steamroll them for the most part. Looking forward to how the meta will continue to develop.
    lolbro, Arifeen, tenkai and 2 others like this.
  14. Pradhaaan

    Pradhaaan
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    Anyone care to explain tht why was sharpedo allowed on ladder??

    Either ways i dont think its broken n voting no ban as i got reqs using offense which handled sharpedo pretty easily.
    parivard likes this.
  15. JayThePokemonMaster

    JayThePokemonMaster

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    BANNING SHARPEDO? I STRONGLY THINK SO!
    Sharpedo is just WAY too good, look at his coverage moves! He has got Ice Beam against Grass types, Psychic Fangs against Fighting, Poison Jab against Fairy, Earthquake for Electric, that's just way too op. With Speed Boost each turn and Super Fang, WOW! Sharpedo is just a too good revenge killer and sweeper, you can't kill Sharpedo. The reason why players don't run Hyper Offence teams anymore is because of Sharpedo who just counters them with those types of moves! With the ability to run Physical or Special, Sharpedo is just way too good for Rarely Used. With the number of people using Sharpedo, i guess Sharpedo turned into Overused now...
    Voting Ban
  16. Romanticist

    Romanticist

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    hello, does anyone have any replays showcasing sharpedo's matchup vs offense? i don't play ru and just finished getting reqs and never really had a problem vs it, even if it had hazard stack support i could still find a way around it (the team i ran had no hazard clearance).

    btw pradhaaan, they probably left it unbanned on the ladder so people who got reqs who don't play ru would have some sort of basis to judge it on so they don't vote as blindly

    e: also when is the verification thread going up jw
    Pradhaaan likes this.
  17. FlamingVictini

    FlamingVictini FV
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    Hey all,

    aim and I made a video discussing our thoughts Sharpedo and I feel it pretty much sums up our thoughts on the suspect, so I encourage you guys to check it out and respond to the points we make to spur more discussion. n_n
  18. Miyami~~

    Miyami~~

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    All the replays got deleted recently, so chances aren't as high.

    That being said, I've been very vocal about Shark for a while so it's no surprise that I think it's broken. I'm going to quote myself from the last thread since nothing's changed:
    There are a few things I'd like to mention. Yes, Sharpedo does have bulky answers, and a fair amount of them, but there's a keyword there - bulky. Sure, you can slap a P2 on HO and call it a day, but that reduces the effectiveness of HO as a whole to not lose to one mon, which is a large red flag. Of course Bulky teams aren't going to have as much issue with it, that's why Sharpedo murders offence and not bulky teams. That being said, with spikes basically being welded into the floor right now, Sharpedo is deceptively weak. Sure, your Kommo-o can check it and P2 takes 2 hits, but if the Sharpedo team gets (t)spikes up, it might as well be over. It's not even like the opponent played poorly, getting up hazards in this meta is an inevitablity on most teams since our hazard removal consists of bad mons or decent mons that are pressured really easily by just about everything. Take a look at Donphan and Blastoise, two Pokémon who are utterly useless outside of spinning, or Xatu and Cryogonal, lower tier Pokémon who aren't that good who have carved out a niche just because they can control hazards. hell, Moltres, a Pokémon with a quad weakness to rocks, is running Defog on some teams just because there isn't a better option, and Scarf Defog Flygon is still a thing for the same reason. And with the lack of good removers, a Pokémon that is near impossible to revenge that can clean up teams of 4-5 mons just because of hazards being laid becomes too much for the tier. Ban Sharpedo.
  19. We Three Kings

    We Three Kings
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    Don't think Sharpedo is broken at all, despite Spikes being stronger than ever. The quintessential Sharpedo Balance has issues with fatter Milotic builds (the good ones, Milo+Zong+Hazard control), and stall in general. Offense certainly doesnt need to be buffed when it has more ridiculous Pokemon than Sharpedo in its arsenal.

    Which brings me to Zoroark. This thing is beyond busted, and far worse for the metagame than Sharpedo in every way. The fact that it breaks PS graphics (irrelevant for tiering, but it's not fixed yet and definitely throws me for a loop everytime I run into it) is just icing on the cake. Disguise it as something like Nidoqueen early-game, and just apply pressure to the point where the Cresselia is Knocked and weakened for your actual Nidoqueen, etc. I'm surprised theres no Zoroark RMT that has broken the meta yet, but I'm sure it'll come soon.


    And stop using Psychic Fangs Sharpedo, it's really bad. Special or Mixed is the way to go.
    parivard likes this.
  20. avocado

    avocado rising high without faking
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    No one is denying that Sharpedo struggles against some fat Pokemon, read literally any of the posts before yours and you'll see they all acknowledge that. The problem here is Sharpedo lacks any form of offensive checks. Priority isn't strong at all in the tier right now so the best thing you'll get is Sucker Punch from Zoroark, Honchkrow, and Decidueye, espeed from zydog, and draining kiss from comfey. All of these Pokemon can be exploited rather easily. Zoroark needs set up before its sucker punch starts being a threat, Honchkrow is weak to rocks and it still might not do enough (56.9 - 66.9%), Decidueye's sucker is weak as fuck, espeed needs rocks + 1 round of LO to have a chance to KO and is very exploitable, and comfey is a terrible Pokemon in the current meta for reasons I'm sure you're aware of. Priority can also be seen coming a mile away and when you need to use priority it might already be too late anyway.

    To be able to handle Sharpedo at all you must pack a fat mon and that in itself is unhealthy and the main problem, almost everything else in the tier has an offensive check to it one way or another; or worst comes to worst you have a scarfer that can check them. That doesn't work with Sharpedo because the only way you're revenge killing it is with priority. Other than that you have to take a hit and kill it back, which by virtue of Sharpedo being a cleaner, wouldn't happen normally because Sharpedo is supposed to sweep weakened teams like no other Pokemon can.

    And finally, traditional checks like porygon2 can be worn down very easily with toxic + hazards since it lacks leftovers and susceptible to everything, same goes to milotic. They can also be pressured into checking more than just Sharpedo.

    Sharpedo invalidates an entire playstyles and is just unhealthy to have around.

    I might get back to you again about Zoroark but I don't feel like arguing about it right now, but I also disagree entirely with what you said about it
  21. MrAldo

    MrAldo (llsshock)
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    With pleasure, Ill like to make an exercise to spark some discussion.

    -----------------------------------------------------o-----------------------------------------------

    And Ill to disagree completely to some of the points made throughout the vid, or at least the ones that I felt were not on point:

    First, this suspect is definitely not about hazard control. The lack of hazard control and the re-introduction of Nidoqueen in the tier just make Sharpedo power and influence on the meta than it already was 2 metas ago. Will Spikes themselves make Sharpedo far more effective, the same could be said on the other way around. Spike builds love having Sharpedo and you are probably holding yourself back by not running a Sharpedo alongside "insert Spike user of your choice here" and this is causing a notoriously stagnant effect in the metagame where you are either build to use the Shark cause why wont you do it seeing how incredibly easy is to slap a win condition + shark + spikes or where you build to keep the Shark alongside the many offensive threats at bay, forcing the bulky stuff and causing some teams to be built suboptimally (p2 or insert passive defensive Pokemon here + 5 offensive Pokemon shouldnt happen just to keep Sharpedo at bay). And I dont like the fact Froslass offense is the only way to go when it comes to building good offense... apparently.

    Is this true for Sharpedo alone when it comes up to covering threats? No, but on the case that Sharpedo is the pokemon that is far harder to revenge kill cause it can keep stacking speed boosts so revenge killing with a scarfer is out of the question, so as I said on early posts, it is a death sentence if you cant afford to take a hit from Shark.

    Ok, I dont understand how at least the game of Meru vs Ajna on snake tour isnt an actual indication that Sharpedo is at the very least unhealthy for the metagame as a whole? It literally came down to removing the Sharpedo check and sweeping the opposing team with their Shark, trust me, you dont need 100% to have Spikes for that happen. It is obviously the easiest way to do it, but in general many of the Pokemon that can check shark are really vulnerable to status and can give up momentum very easily when getting worn down. Tspikes, pair it with a wallbreaker like Decidueye, status spam, many teams to setup a perfect scenario for Sharpedo to sweep that dont include Spikes cause that is just so easy to do. Which also helps to cause that stagnant effect on the meta and people saying like "Why the fuck Im not using this?!"

    This pokemon isnt obviously busted but it is creating a really awful effect on the tier as a whole, and has been doing for quite some time. I believe there IS an advantage on the Sharpedo user going for the end game scenario, knowing that it can always be telegraphed win condition is just... too good if you ask me. And there is always the possibility of dark pulse flinching you, and screw over your gameplan just like that (ofc it is hax but it is a likely possibility when a Pokemon has to tank a hit).

    It was a pretty good discussion vid, I was pissed off at first at some times but after giving it some time to listen to each point carefully... it had its good share of points. I just dont agree with gameplans and what not being something to back up an argument cause there many scenarios that just make it unreliable since the concept on skill goes to both players. BTW, Special Sharpedo + Spikes can definitely put in work against Stall.

    Im not gonna go through the offense situation, it has been rehashed already and it is a shame we dont have the replays to further strengthen the argument. Saying offense "has no problem handling it" why just laddering on the suspect is just wrong...

    I will be around for more discussion, it is a good way to revitalizing this forum after all and keep people together.
    jdcomix, Kableye, Rakan and 23 others like this.
  22. FlamingVictini

    FlamingVictini FV
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    While I would agree with most of the things people are saying are qualities of sharpedo, I believe such qualities do not make it broken. In order to frame my argument, I'm going to be basing my argument around OU's tiering policy framework since it sets a very clear set of definitions for us to discuss by. To illustrate my point, I'll mainly just be responding to some of the things said in this thread.
    Copy Pasted Bare Bone Definitions - short (open)

    II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
    III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
    IV.) Unhealthy - elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken, yet deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent
    D.) When trying to argue a particular element's suspect status, please avoid this category unless absolutely necessary. This is a last ditch, subjective catch-all, and tiering arguments should focus on uncompetitive or broken first. We are coming to a point in the generations where the number of threats is close to overwhelming, so we may touch upon this more often, but please try to focus on uncompetitive and broken first.

    Overall Goal and Purpose of Tiering Policy:

    I.) To create a metagame that is conducive to the more "skilled" player winning over the less "skilled" player a majority of the time.
    II.) To ensure that both our ladder and tournament crowds are catered to regarding I.)
    III. To ensure that actions are taken with appropriate and complete justification.
    E.) Arguments that show how a specific suspect element affects skill in relative terms to other elements in the metagame will be very, very, highly emphasized.

    R: I disagree with this statement. While shark is certainly effective alongside spikes, it is not the reason spikes is effective. Literally every pokemon is advantaged when more hazards are on the opposing side of the field - breaker's may be able to achieve certain 2hkos, it becomes easier to win by defending, and the ability to outplay by making double switches becomes much more potent, as examples. There is also an opportunity cost to using Sharpedo; it's frailty and little defensive value can strain the rest of the build and leave a team with some poor matchups that are difficult to remedy without creating holes elsewhere. More bluntly, Sharpedo does not render skillful play irrelevant (and thus, sharpedo is not broken or uncompetitive). I'd also like to point out that spikes are not key to making a team effective in this tier, and on such teams Shark generally finds it much harder to sweep. If shark were truly broken or uncompetitive, it would provide an inherent advantage to the user and be used in a more diverse selection of teams and still succeed just as well. Instead, shark generally thrives on teams with hazards because it creates for a more consistent strategy that gives a player much greater ability to create the conditions for a sharpedo sweep.
    O: Firstly, Sharpedo's presence does not force bulky pokemon. It only necessitates that you have pokemon that can at worst survive a hit from it, which is true for every pokemon in the tier. Secondly, using bulky pokemon does not necessitate that a build has become suboptimal. People using teams like p2 + 5 offensive pokemon is the exception, not the rule, and is most likely an example of poor teambuilding (that might not be the case, depending on the team). Skill is part of this game, and that includes teambuilding skill. Sharpedo does not make teambuilding skill largely irrelevant.
    B: This is plain wrong. A single counterexample could disprove your statement, so I'll refer to my team that Joey used to beat Ajna using a Sharpedo in RU Open Finals: Omastar, Virizion, Zoroark, Flygon, Durant, Bruxish (video of the game on his channel). Good offense does not necessitate froslass, and even if it did, that wouldn't be a symptom of Sharpedo's presence in the tier.

    I'll presume you meant that revenge killing sharpedo by attacking before it attacks is out of the question, to which I'd respond that yes, this is the nature of Pokemon with the ability speed boost, and it would be necessary to knock it out with residual damage and priority or with a pokemon that can take a hit. Of course, you haven't made a strong case for why this condition inhibits skillful play and thus makes sharpedo broken, so I'll consider the point moot for now. However, I would like to point out that scarfers can 1) prevent an opportunity for sharpedo to get a speed boost, and 2) some can live a hit and ko back, despite not investing anything into bulk.

    Why don't we try replacing the word Sharpedo with any other random sweeper - maybe something silly like clamperl - just to see fatal assumption in your logic. "It literally came down to removing the Clamperl check and sweeping the opposing team with their Clamperl, trust me, you dont need 100% to have Spikes for that happen." Maybe replace it with a pokemon like Bewear, Doublade, Feraligatr, or Salazzle - to see that this statement is perfectly plausible regardless of what mon you say it for, but says nothing about sharpedo being broken. Interestingly enough, a Pokemon does not become bad because it is vulnerable to status! You also prove my own point by bringing up additional strategies that must be used well alongside sharpedo to create the conditions for it to sweep - clearly requiring teambuilding skill, as well as in-game skill.

    Here I feel you are tending towards an argument of shark being unhealthy, which is a pretty tough position to argue. You'll have to be a lot more convincing that it's having an awful effect on the tier as a whole. Also, Sharpedo isn't a default telegraphed win condition.

    This baffles me. You're saying that because Sharpedo is a cleaner, pokemon normally won't be able to take a hit and kill it back? That's like me saying "Because Toxicroak is a sweeper, you wouldn't normally be able to stop it because it's supposed to run through teams," or without the silly phrasing, "when the conditions to win are met, the game will normally be won." No duh. The challenge is meeting those conditions, which isn't so trivial.

    Firstly, these pokemon are counters, not checks. Also, interestingly enough, Sharpedo cannot use toxic and hazards itself! Furthermore, such counters can be supported with additional pokemon to take off some pressure, such as decent hazard control, a cleric, secondary check/counter, win condition that can win before opposing sharpedo (If you need an example of this, see Chill Shadow vs Tsunami in Snake Tour), etc. In the end, the game comes down to skill and strategy.
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  23. MrAldo

    MrAldo (llsshock)
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    Ofc Sharpedo is an element that makes spikes far more effective because it is easily the best mon in the tier to take advantage. Sharpedo unique abilities as a cleaner with Speed Boost and pseudo wallbreaking means by default that it is harder to revenge kill than your usual breaker sweeper since it can stack speed boosts the more kills it can get, and that pretty easy in practice. Other pseudo cleaners like zygarde-10% certainly appreciate spikes and make this dog far more effective but at least you can have offensive counterplay in terms of a scarfer to revenge kill it, same deal with other breakers like SD Gatr or Bruxish, Virizion, etc. With Sharpedo that option is out the window. Thats why I make that analogy cause from the matches I have seen on the past 2 months (rip replays) the combination of both Sharpedo + Spikes has been overbearing and both definitely contribute to that conclusion. You dont see anyone complaing with zydog cause it is far more plausible to counterplay.

    >Using bulky pokemon does not necessitate that a build has become suboptimal. Dude, I never said that and I have no idea where did you got that conclusion based on what I posted. You are putting words on my paragraphs, b. The whole point of that part of the argument is that Sharpedo certainly force some passive stuff on certain offensive builds for the past months, a rough reality for some time. While it is certainly the exception to the rule (thankfully) it still happens sometimes and it is something to add to its track record.

    Thankfully I used the term "apparently", but with that team the general point still stands with the sharpedo vs HO. Aim had to make every correct play and even then he could have lost to Sharpedo at any given moment since Ajna made some key misplays and aim could still have lost. No idea why he let bewear take a devastating drake to the face when he had a healthy cresselia in the back, and I guess it was too late at that point since he had to bank on the hustle miss (but the ant was swarm, figures lol) so yeah. It was a pretty easy lose if Ajna didnt misplayed like that if you ask me. Tell me what item where you using on virizion tho since it wasnt a z-move :v

    This unhealthy definition is honestly super... vague? boogus? way too black and white when it comes to extremes cause sometimes can be unhealthy and that doesnt necessarily promote skillless play. Sharpedo is not a mindless entity that has control over everything that happens in the match, if that were the case this could have been a really swift quickban, but that was clearly not the case but the negative influence Sharpedo has on the metagame as a whole cant certainly be ignored. As said, I firmly believe Sharpedo is one of the biggest components of this stagnant situation I feel the tier is going through (ofc alongside a couple of mons that will be taken into account sometime in the future hopefully, SPECULATION) and how other offense selections feel objectively inferior compared to Sharpedo Offense and Bulky Offense with Spikes which is the disgusting feeling I have with how the metagame is developing as a whole. It doesnt deter skillful play but lessen the options for more skillful teambuilding imo.

    Not gonna honor that clamperl comparison with a throughout response cause it is just plain ridiculous. Simply put in, no other Pokemon has pull off consistent sweeps throughout many metas. Why are past metas relevant for this? Simple, cause Sharpedo was slightly worse aka more manageable on previous metas! Snake games may be the cream of the top in terms of what top players can do in SM RU but as far as I can see a good couple of games have been decided by Sharp cleaning or punching holes, against actual Sharpedo checks (Cresselia was called a Sharpedo check for whats worth on the vid). Ofc Sharpedo cant run taunt and toxic on the same set but why does it has to when with minimal team support?

    Do go on, this is entertaining.
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  24. We Three Kings

    We Three Kings
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    Offense trades vs Sharpedo just fine in most cases, wouldn't say it invalidates the entire playstyle. Webs deal with Sharpedo fine too, although it's not a strong playstyle, but it's viable regardless. Yes, Sharpedo pressures offense harder than most other mons, but the same goes for stall with other Pokemon. Don't understand why this case is so special. And any good Porygon2/Milotic team will run strict hazard control, limiting Sharpedo to early-game breaking if it wants to accomplish anything.

    "Invalidating an entire playstyle" is such an overstatement.


    Echoing FlamingVictini's points, because they're very valid.
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  25. Ajna

    Ajna his panic like Dora when shots blast
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    ok uh, i don't think i misplayed in my game vs aim lol. looking at his team it looks like scarf gon and z move ant. i unfortunately don't have telepathy to view my opponents sets before they reveal them, so i was punished for assuming the wrong set. you could call it a misread, but imo that's not what a misplay is.

    anyways, i really didn't want to join this discussion, but there is so much being said here that i completely disagree with.

    most people feel that sharpedo is unhealthy, so how in the world is that a tough position to argue?

    not only is webs an unarchetype, but sharpedo can be very threatening to webs if it's able to pick off a mon like nidoqueen (which would be on every webs team if these teams existed).

    the problem with the tier rn is that we have no hazard control LOL. if you look at snake not every p2/milo team has a gligar or a xatu and that's because they can be difficult to fit on teams, and they only work in certain matchups. xatu essentially wins vs regi/ches teams, has decent mu vs queen/ches teams and rhyp/ches teams, but it has terrible mu vs teams with rhyp/rose, nido/rose, nido/froslass etc. gligar is similar in that it struggles to defog vs all of these teams while still being able to check the mons it needs to.

    lack of reliable hazard control is the only reason this suspect is happening. if we had good removers more defensive balance teams would make shark much less effective.

    it's not bad, it just comes down to matchup. it may not be as consistently effective, but it helps you vs croak, machamp, virizion and dragalge.

    this team was a great counterystyle build for what i had been using recently, but from my experience ho is near impossible to have consistency with as long as shark in the tier. this isn't because shark is simply broken, but it is because of how shark affects teambuilding. the team you're referring to gives gligar a defog with 5/6 pokemon, so i really don't see it doing well against teams with one. idt it really matters wether you use omastar, froslass, or even some wild shit like accelgor; ho is just not a consistent playstyle in the current meta.

    thank you for bringing this up because this is my main problem with the current metagame. this is a statement i 100 percent agree with, but it also applies to many other pokemon/playstyles. ru currently has way too many threats to build teams that give you a decent chance to win in every matchup. before queen, decidueye, abomasnow, and camel dropped it was somewhat feasible to check everything/not lose to a random few mons, but now it's near impossible. mu's obviously influence games, but if you do play well enough then you can win versus any type of team. even with that being said, i believe many games are being too heavily influenced at team preview to call this meta anything other than unbalanced or unhealthy.
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2017
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