Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - The Robots - Metagrossite BANNED

[blunder]

hello pals i wanted to post my thoughts on this suspect test as i didn't post anything on page 1

i think the current meta is ill prepared for a pokemon like metagross for a number of reasons. metagross is without a doubt one of the best pokemon in the tier and poses a threat to almost every single team in the meta and most people's choice of counterplay such as scizor is now easy to circumvent as hp fire is finding it's way onto different metagross sets and is a legitimately viable option. there are few good answers to dealing with metagross to begin with and another issue that i haven't seen adressed that much is that a good majority of the moves found on metagross have secondary effects that end up really punishing the opponent to where prediction isn't even that important. it's incredibly easy to spam meteor mash vs most teams as landorus-t / ferrothorn / helmet tangrowth are the only things that can switch in and apply some sort of damage thanks to helmet / barbs, although landorus-t and ferrothorn wont stay in for fear of ice punch and hammer arm respectively. when metagross inevitably gets +1 attack vs these more bulkier offensive teams it has no problem breaking holes and getting at least one kill before the inevitable scarfchomp which btw is a roll to ko metagross with eq when factorin gin rough skin or their ash greninja or whatever. zen headbutt comes with flinch chance which makes it easy to muscle past mons like rotom and when its paired with lele, if sr is up, its incredible tough to beat as it does something crazy like 35% to scizor so you just flinch through that as well. thunder punch and ice punch come with their own hax chances as well so without running helmet on like every pokemon metagross is free to spam its moves and fish for whatever and more often than not it will end up having an affect on the game.

metagross puts a heavy restriction on teambuilding in the meta and the most frustrating aspect is that metagross itself needs very little support from its teammates barring maybe hazard removal. every single tapu aids it, with lele and koko boosting its moves, bulu applying recovery, and fini protecting from any scald burns and paralysis. i'm not going to address some of the other more known stuff such as the immediate speed boost and the lack of counters coming over from gen 6 bc everyone knows that but i do want to bring up the dumbass reasoning of "metagross has 4mss so it's really not that good" just because metagross has more than 4 viable moves doesn't mean it doesn't function properly with only four. all metagross truly needs is meteor mash / hammer arm or eq / and then coverage options depending on the team. i'm really not sure when this mentality of having a lot of moves to pick from and not being able to fit them all on one set meant a mon was bad, bc what it really means is that without absolutely flawless play you could lose something that you needed tin your game to one of its coverage moves because scouting for everytihng vs mmetal isn't realistic and like i said earlier with all the secondary effects of its moves, you also risk getting punished via hax.

Metagross is a mon that encourages and rewards proactive play, which jives well with SM as a whole. It's not enough to have a solid team anymore, the player themselves are asked to navigate it properly. The "broken checking broken" argument is simply silly at this stage - things are relative to one another, and the power level of Gen 7 is high enough that Metagross isn't terribly out of place. It's a mon almost as straightforward as they come - you know what it's clicking 90% of the time, and the ability to dance around and punish a Metagross player being linear is a neat part of the metagame.

this is something i also wanted to address because i don't think i can disgaree more with this. it doesn't matter if you know what metagross is clicking 90% of the time if its clicking meteor mash and getting +1 or hitting the appropriate coverage move which it is fine to do vs most because its natural bulk and immediate threat level mean you can't just keep most pokemon in on it. metagross doesn't require you to play linearly and it is not out here rewarding proactive play either when it's legitimately a fine play to just spam mash and fish. even on turns when it's a "prediction" it really never is because the meta user loses nothing from clicking mash and fishing unless they have something to actively punish that. it wouldn't be a big deal if metagross didn't have tough claws and 389 attack as well as 2hkoing almost everything but that IS the case.

 

[Mame YO]

Metagross is not overwhelming, nor is does it lack counterplay. It has a severe case of 4mss, and it is hurt by burns, chip damage, and a few prominent physical walls. It's prone to being worn down, and in combination with Rocky helmet/rough skin, intimidate, and scarf mons like garchomp that are easily able to revenge kill it with prior damage - this mon is definitely beatable.

Furthermore, megagross reduces the viability of stall type mons that otherwise wall too much of the metagame. Mons like skarmory, Chansey, and celesteela lose a potential check in Megagross carrying TP/hammer arm. This is huge. In the 30 or so games I've played on the suspect ladder, chansey is everywhere. This mon is absolutely walling any team lacking mega medicham, and it isn't the only stallmon shining in a metagame lacking one of its premier checks (hammer arm does 63-74%, enough to OHKO with prior damage before a soft-boiled can be executed).

I keep making the same arguments: ban all of the offensive threats and you'll be left with a stall-friendly meta that will ensure long, unfun games for everyone. The meta will be stale, slow, and it will favor defensive mons and teams in general.

dont ban megagross. Because we all prefer a fun, balanced metagame.

 

[Reviloja753]

Metagross is not overwhelming, nor is does it lack counterplay. It has a severe case of 4mss, and it is hurt by burns, chip damage, and a few prominent physical walls. It's prone to being worn down, and in combination with Rocky helmet/rough skin, intimidate, and scarf mons like garchomp that are easily able to revenge kill it with prior damage - this mon is definitely beatable.

Furthermore, megagross reduces the viability of stall type mons that otherwise wall too much of the metagame. Mons like skarmory, Chansey, and celesteela lose a potential check in Megagross carrying TP/hammer arm. This is huge. In the 30 or so games I've played on the suspect ladder, chansey is everywhere. This mon is absolutely walling any team lacking mega medicham, and it isn't the only stallmon shining in a metagame lacking one of its premier checks (hammer arm does 63-74%, enough to OHKO with prior damage before a soft-boiled can be executed).

I keep making the same arguments: ban all of the offensive threats and you'll be left with a stall-friendly meta that will ensure long, unfun games for everyone. The meta will be stale, slow, and it will favor defensive mons and teams in general.

dont ban megagross. Because we all prefer a fun, balanced metagame.

This argument is flawed for a few reasons.

1. MegaMeta has little counterplay, specifically in things like Mega Scizor. Nobody said it had no counterplay.
2. Metagross by itself is still legal. It isn't like Metagross is being suspected. Metagrossite is.
3. The slippery slope argument that every offensive threat will be banned is bull. By that logic, Mimikyu will get a suspect.
4. With the Chansey argument (and stall in general), there is an entire category of sets dedicated to breaking them. Stallbreaker sets are on the rise to respond to the rise of stall. Stall may have increased viability if MegaMeta is banned, but it will not make stall teams the best thing since BW rain teams.

 

[Night Train Lane]

The 4MSS is such a shitty argument holE. Why the hell do ppl keep bringing this up. It 100% runs mash + EQ/Hammer. The other 2 moves are tailored to the team. Just because it has 6-7 good moves doesn't mean it needs to run all of them to be broken. Every suspect test "it has 4MSS yada yada" gets brought up and it never holds up on a consistent basis because of how arbitrary an argument it is.

 

[KztxL7]

Oh my god "4MSS" is such a worthless goddamn term now and I wish I could delete it forevermore.

Stop confusing what you want with what you need. Four Moveslot Syndrome should determined by what you need not what you want because every damn pokemon in the game wants another moveslot but not everyone needs one.

Mega Metagross is a perfect example of something that wants it, but look at the damn thing. It's literally at the top of the metagame to the point its being suspected. It does not need a 5th moveslot.

Mega Audino is an example of what needs that 5th moveslot. Dazzling Gleam/Shadow Ball/Wish/Protect/Calm Mind. You remove a single one of these moves and Mega Audinos already abysmal chance of ever seeing viability drops even lower because it can not properly operate in this metagame without that 5th moveslot.

If you can not properly determine what is wanted and what is needed then stop dropping those 4 characters together.

 

[Leo]

Metagross is not overwhelming, nor is does it lack counterplay. It has a severe case of 4mss, and it is hurt by burns, chip damage, and a few prominent physical walls. It's prone to being worn down, and in combination with Rocky helmet/rough skin, intimidate, and scarf mons like garchomp that are easily able to revenge kill it with prior damage - this mon is definitely beatable.

Furthermore, megagross reduces the viability of stall type mons that otherwise wall too much of the metagame. Mons like skarmory, Chansey, and celesteela lose a potential check in Megagross carrying TP/hammer arm. This is huge. In the 30 or so games I've played on the suspect ladder, chansey is everywhere. This mon is absolutely walling any team lacking mega medicham, and it isn't the only stallmon shining in a metagame lacking one of its premier checks (hammer arm does 63-74%, enough to OHKO with prior damage before a soft-boiled can be executed).

I keep making the same arguments: ban all of the offensive threats and you'll be left with a stall-friendly meta that will ensure long, unfun games for everyone. The meta will be stale, slow, and it will favor defensive mons and teams in general.

dont ban megagross. Because we all prefer a fun, balanced metagame.

Ok your second argument is plain wrong and I usually don't post in these threads but the other guy mentioned a Mimikyu suspect so I guess I'll address this shortly. Metagross isn't that big of a threat to Stall to begin with. It's easily stopped by Skarmory unless it haxes its way through and it gets even worse if they run helm fsr. If you're using Koko+Meta then the Stall player can just trap you with Dug so yeah Meta has never been a reliable Stall countermeasure. Even if Metagross kept Stall at bay and we "needed" it to beat it (which isn't the case) we would suspect what would make Stall broken later, as "broken checks broken" is against Smogon's banning philosophy

 

[Mame YO]

Ok your second argument is plain wrong and I usually don't post in these threads but the other guy mentioned a Mimikyu suspect so I guess I'll address this shortly. Metagross isn't that big of a threat to Stall to begin with. It's easily stopped by Skarmory unless it haxes its way through and it gets even worse if they run helm fsr. If you're using Koko+Meta then the Stall player can just trap you with Dug so yeah Meta has never been a reliable Stall countermeasure. Even if Metagross kept Stall at bay and we "needed" it to beat it (which isn't the case) we would suspect what would make Stall broken later, as "broken checks broken" is against Smogon's banning philosophy

Mmeta's THunder punch is just short of a 2HKO vs skarmory and is guaranteed under electric terrain. Even without electric terrain it isn't unrealistic that skarmory has received prior damage in a battle that puts it in range of mmeta's TP. Unless you're just spamming roost that doesn't scream progress from a skarmory user pov. And +1 it isn't an issue either.

 

[Reviloja753]

Mmeta's THunder punch is just short of a 2HKO vs skarmory and is guaranteed under electric terrain. Even without electric terrain it isn't unrealistic that skarmory has received prior damage in a battle that puts it in range of mmeta's TP. Unless you're just spamming roost that doesn't scream progress from a skarmory user pov. And +1 it isn't an issue either.

If Skarmory keeps losing HP, it will keep using Roost. Not that hard of a concept. Without the Flying type, Skarm takes less from TP and lives forever barring EQ (but the foe could predict and do something else instead, so it isn't as good of a counter argument as it may seem) Also, Stallbreaker was never a niche for MegaMeta (as far as I know). It usually is just a physical sweeper. Also, keeping something that destroys all other playstyles just to balance a particular playstyle seems counterintuitive and a generally bad idea.

 

[41gguy]

Finally! A suspect test for this Brokemon!

I believe that Megagross is too strong for OU due to its overall superiority in almost every department, while having no significant weakness. But first, I will take a look back at the previous gen to justify that it was worth of OU last gen.

Last gen, Megagross's most glaring weakness was the speed of 70 upon Mega evolution, meaning that it had to find a very safe time to Mega evolve. Without getting into detail, there are many pokemon that outspeed and do massive damage to Megagross at base 70 speed. Secondly, at max speed, Megagross often fell prey to Bisharp's Sucker Punch or Talonflame's Flare Blitz, some picks that rarely if ever seen anymore. With a large amount of walls in the previous metagame, Megagross could never capture a movepool that would account for would-be counters, leaving most sets walled by Skarmory, Slowbro, and Scizor. However, at the dawn of this generation where Thunderpunch became the best coverage move, this is no longer the case.

Metagross's weaknesses in all of these departments have all been mitigated. Walls that can fight Megagross are less common, as there exists too many counters to them within Megagross's reach. What we're left with is a fast, bulky, no-brainer wall breaker that, even if mispredicted, takes little punishment from any switch-in out side of Scarf-landorus T. It is heavily damaged by Pokemon like Tapu Koko, but this does not usually pose a threat to Metagross's role as a wallbreaker. And if worst comes to worst, in a straight up duel between Tapu Koko and Metagross, Tapu Koko's Choice Spec'd Thunderbolt would not kill while Metagross's Meteor Mash or Earthquake would. It's these sorts of stats that make fighting around a well-played Metagross a lose-lose situation, and it will almost always have easily succeeded in its job with little defensive answer, only a tactical offensive answer that often comes up short of a win anyhow.

 

[Mame YO]

If Skarmory keeps losing HP, it will keep using Roost. Not that hard of a concept. Without the Flying type, Skarm takes less from TP and lives forever barring EQ (but the foe could predict and do something else instead, so it isn't as good of a counter argument as it may seem) Also, Stallbreaker was never a niche for MegaMeta (as far as I know). It usually is just a physical sweeper. Also, keeping something that destroys all other playstyles just to balance a particular playstyle seems counterintuitive and a generally bad idea.

I never said it was a wall breaker, and I believe in my original post on the subject I said it wasn't particularly overwhelming. I was merely responding to your post saying that mine was wrong, when in fact mmeta chunks all three of the mons I listed and over the course of a match it can and will get chances to punch holes.

 

[Leo]

Mmeta's THunder punch is just short of a 2HKO vs skarmory and is guaranteed under electric terrain. Even without electric terrain it isn't unrealistic that skarmory has received prior damage in a battle that puts it in range of mmeta's TP. Unless you're just spamming roost that doesn't scream progress from a skarmory user pov. And +1 it isn't an issue either.

Spamming Roost when you arent healthy is what Skarm does best lmao you dont set up Spikes unless you can Roost back to full right after if your opp has a Meta waiting to break through you. And why would you want to make progress with a Skarmory if youre playing Stall like what?

 

[Reviloja753]

I never said it was a wall breaker, and I believe in my original post on the subject I said it wasn't particularly overwhelming. I was merely responding to your post saying that mine was wrong, when in fact mmeta chunks all three of the mons I listed and over the course of a match it can and will get chances to punch holes.

Stallbreaker and Wallbreaker are two different things.

Another thing about your OP: You say that MegaMeta can be dealt with by things like ScarfChomp with prior damage. Outside of priority, what can outspeed MegaGross at max speed? No really, what can outspeed MegaGross at +0 without boosting items like Scarf to do that chip damage? Not much, I can say for sure. Also, whatever does that chip essentially gets sacked by something MegaMeta runs, so essentially you have to do a suicide lead to even get a CHANCE to deal with MegaMeta. I don't think that's healthy.

 

[Mame YO]

The things that do chip aren't all going to be sacked. Ferrothorn does well vs gross lacking hammer arm. Lando does well if it lacks ice punch. skarm completely walls without thunder punch. Etc etc.

You seem to be simultaneously arguing that metagross isn't particularly powerful yet you also appear to make points like "mmeta forces a sack". Which is it?

 

[paperquagsire]

The things that do chip aren't all going to be sacked. Ferrothorn does well vs gross lacking hammer arm. Lando does well if it lacks ice punch. skarm completely walls without thunder punch. Etc etc.

Amazing how if you remove the move that defeats that Pokémon, that Pokémon can live. I'm glad you grasped this simple concept. But the thing is Metagross CAN have those moves to destroy those Pokémon, which can force a sac to scout it.

Also weren't you the person who wanted to ban really specific stuff about pheromosa and made the whole thread a giant argument?

 

[Mame YO]

Amazing how if you remove the move that defeats that Pokémon, that Pokémon can live. I'm glad you grasped this simple concept. But the thing is Metagross CAN have those moves to destroy those Pokémon, which can force a sac to scout it.

Also weren't you the person who wanted to ban really specific stuff about pheromosa and made the whole thread a giant argument?

The point being that it can't run everything at once. And you aren't necessarily sacking mons to scout it - for that to be true, you assume perfect prediction by the mmeta user and the right coverage move. That isn't always the case either.

And yes, I did argue against smogon's ban philosophy during the pheromosa suspect.

 

[paperquagsire]

The point being that it can't run everything at once. And you aren't necessarily sacking mons to scout it - for that to be true, you assume perfect prediction by the mmeta user and the right coverage move. That isn't always the case either.

And yes, I did argue against smogon's ban philosophy during the pheromosa suspect.

It doesn't need to run everything, just what it needs based on the team, and any halfway decent player can predict ferrothorn coming in and swap out to a ferro counter, it doesn't take much skill.

 

[Reviloja753]

The point being that it can't run everything at once. And you aren't necessarily sacking mons to scout it - for that to be true, you assume perfect prediction by the mmeta user and the right coverage move. That isn't always the case either.

And yes, I did argue against smogon's ban philosophy during the pheromosa suspect.

UGH! More 4MSS nonsense. Just because it has more than four good moves doesn't give something 4MSS. What it does is give options. Someone remind me not to trust any diagnosis I get from you.

 

[Mame YO]

UGH! More 4MSS nonsense. Just because it has more than four good moves doesn't give something 4MSS. What it does is give options. Someone remind me not to trust any diagnosis I get from you.

It's clearly a functional mon with 4 moves regardless of which options it chooses and of course you're going to make those choices based on your team composition. But it isn't "nonsense" to point out the fact that mmeta is stopped by several mons dependent on what it is running.

And sure, it can double switch into a ferro counter or lando, or whatever - but again, you're assuming perfect prediction from the user.

And since we're talking about prediction: wouldn't you say the user who is making all of these moves, who is taking risk in order to keep a step ahead of the opponent is making intelligent moves? Should these moves not be rewarded if they're successful (just as they're punished if they guess wrong)? Isn't this true with most mons? You can make the argument "user of mon X can predict a switch to mon Y and double switch into Z which counters Y" with pretty much any Pokémon btw.

 

[paperquagsire]

It's clearly a functional mon with 4 moves regardless of which options it chooses and of course you're going to make those choices based on your team composition. But it isn't "nonsense" to point out the fact that mmeta is stopped by several mons dependent on what it is running.

And sure, it can double switch into a ferro counter or lando, or whatever - but again, you're assuming perfect prediction from the user.

And since we're talking about prediction: wouldn't you say the user who is making all of these moves, who is taking risk in order to keep a step ahead of the opponent is making intelligent moves? Should these moves not be rewarded if they're successful (just as they're punished if they guess wrong)? Isn't this true with most mons? You can make the argument "user of mon X can predict a switch to mon Y and double switch into Z which counters Y" with pretty much any Pokémon btw.

You can also argue that any mom would benefit from a 5th moveslot and that 4MSS is completely normal and not a valid argument.

Also, I'm not assuming perfect prediction, I'm assuming the person has an IQ over 50 to be able to make glaringly obvious plays.

 

[Leo]

It's clearly a functional mon with 4 moves regardless of which options it chooses and of course you're going to make those choices based on your team composition. But it isn't "nonsense" to point out the fact that mmeta is stopped by several mons dependent on what it is running.

And sure, it can double switch into a ferro counter or lando, or whatever - but again, you're assuming perfect prediction from the user.

And since we're talking about prediction: wouldn't you say the user who is making all of these moves, who is taking risk in order to keep a step ahead of the opponent is making intelligent moves? Should these moves not be rewarded if they're successful (just as they're punished if they guess wrong)? Isn't this true with most mons? You can make the argument "user of mon X can predict a switch to mon Y and double switch into Z which counters Y" with pretty much any Pokémon btw.

Yeah you can pivot with your 3 different mons that wall Metagross lacking x move and figure out its moveset but this is a very low risk high reward scenario for the Metagross user as they can either boost their way through with Mash boosts they will get from clicking it a couple of times or chip at everything on your team for free. Let's say you have a Lando+Heatran vs your opp's Gross. Ok so you go Heatran on the Ice Punch and then back into Lando on the Hammer and back into Tran on the Ice Punch now out og range of Hammer Arm but all of these plays are high risk for you as the Metagross player coukd just pull a basic prediction and get a free kill whereas they aren't punished if they decide not to predict+they get free chip on your mons and rocks damage too

 

[Marigold]

It's clearly a functional mon with 4 moves regardless of which options it chooses and of course you're going to make those choices based on your team composition. But it isn't "nonsense" to point out the fact that mmeta is stopped by several mons dependent on what it is running.

And sure, it can double switch into a ferro counter or lando, or whatever - but again, you're assuming perfect prediction from the user.

And since we're talking about prediction: wouldn't you say the user who is making all of these moves, who is taking risk in order to keep a step ahead of the opponent is making intelligent moves? Should these moves not be rewarded if they're successful (just as they're punished if they guess wrong)? Isn't this true with most mons? You can make the argument "user of mon X can predict a switch to mon Y and double switch into Z which counters Y" with pretty much any Pokémon btw.

4MSS is only a detriment to a Pokémon if having four moves prevents it from fully performing its job. Megagross does not suffer from having four moveslots in this case, as having four appropriate different attacks is all it needs to be the fearsome wallbreaker it is. If a megagross forgos ice punch (which it almost never does in a meta with zygarde, lando-t, garchomp, etc), odds are that the team doesn't care much about those threats megagross doesn't cover or handles that missing coverage more than sufficiently.

Ferrothorn isn't a reliable check anyway. Hammer arm or hp fire (which people should stop dismissing as fire/electric/ice coverage is amazing in this meta) both dispose of it easily, with the latter bypassing a lot of chip.

 

[TheHungrySnorlax]

If Skarmory keeps losing HP, it will keep using Roost. Not that hard of a concept. Without the Flying type, Skarm takes less from TP and lives forever barring EQ (but the foe could predict and do something else instead, so it isn't as good of a counter argument as it may seem) Also, Stallbreaker was never a niche for MegaMeta (as far as I know). It usually is just a physical sweeper. Also, keeping something that destroys all other playstyles just to balance a particular playstyle seems counterintuitive and a generally bad idea.

Since skarmory is slower than mega meta, it will always take super effective damage from t-punch, roost only makes you lose your flying typing upon being attacked if you're faster than the target.
Also, as Leooo mentioned, the risk involved in double switching to scout for coverage moves is more risky for the opponents facing metagross, several competent opponents will be able to predict around that and you may end up in a worse situations aftwrwards.

 

[Mame YO]

If heatran stays in on the predicted switch to lando it ohkos with magma storm. Defensive lando does up to 80% and offensive lando ohkos. It's a risk, yes, but it can win you a game if you predict right.

 

[Aberforth]

As the OP says, prediction goes both ways, arguing that you can beat Metagross via predictions is a bad argument and one you should not make.

As for Metagross in general, its risk-reward is massively scaled towards reward. It is a Mega but for that downside you have a perfect partner for all of the Tapus, and incredibly hard hitting mon, priority, and one of the bulkiest offensive pokemon in the tier. In the meantime, counterplay is heavily limited towards it, with even counters having the potential to be haxed out by an untimely Meteor Mash raise, and risk-reward when it comes to Metagross is normally skewered in Metagross's favour, wherein if Metagross mispredicts, it will rarely cause it to go down, whereas if Metagross gets the prediction right, normally something is dropping or coming close to. This isn't a case of prediction, which goes both ways, merely that in real-game scenarios, the risk reward will often favour Metagross. The combination of power, bulk, speed and movepool options is such that pushes the risk-reward over the edge, and thus Metagross should be banned.

Also ban gren plz.

 

[stardust93]

here's the thing about metagross. u know damn well its always gonna run mash, ice punch for mons like zygarde chomp and lando.. the remaining 2 moves depends on the requirement of the team.. and its possible to tell based on the tapu u have on the team. koko probably means thunderpunch, lele probably means zen headbutt, bulu probably means no eq but hammer arm and fini means well u cant really tell much from fini. but the point im making is that its not as difficult as ppl make it out to be to figure out the metagross moveset. i dont understand why ppl think hp fire is a good move to run on metagross. just because it deals with its only counter scizor.. there are so many better mons to deal with scizor. i freely switch in my heatran on the most obvious mash and then protect to scout for the coverage move. protecting also puts ur opponent in a position to predict (say between hammer arm/eq my tran or predict my lando and go for ice punch/mash). if i go lando on the hammer arm then gross becomes slower for that turn and is threatened by eq (not to mention the chip from helmet).. if i stay in with tran and my opponent goes for ice punch or mash expecting lando i can get a decent chunk with lava plume (and a potential burn)... i also get that my opponent doesnt have to predict and go for the safe option and attack whats in front, but if i predict that correctly, i can switch between lando and tran (between the ice punch and hammer arm/eq) to the point that my opponent has to make the correct prediction rather than just going for the safe option. i get that this is very situational but protect helps scout moves on pokemon like gross as well as greninja. thunderpunch is i guess imo is needed cuz it pairs so well with koko and deals with celesteela skarm and toxapex (if u arnt running zen, and even then u are threatened by counter skarm). the 4th move is something u probably will run to deal with tran/ferro and hammer arm covers that. while its true the secondary effects of the moves it runs like mash boost or tpunch para or ice punch freeze or zen flinch (yes i know the secondary effects of these moves are game changers)... we completely neglect that mash/zen can also miss (which are also game changers)..... when you say u can muscle past scizor with mash raise... that just shows that u have to rely on pure luck... thats not skill based playing. thats just hoping rng goes in your favor.. plus u have to hit each and every single mash and hope for the 20% chance of the boost.. hax shouldnt be something to be considered in a suspect. there are pokemon than offensively check and do massive damage to gross. koko greninja scarfers etc. adamant mega sharpedo straight up ohkos gross from full (u obviously need to get the speed boost to outspeed), u dont need any chip damage.. not to mention we hvnt had the addition of other megas like swampert manectric that can easily come in and either threaten gross or chip away at its health... ppl say "it restricts teambuilding"..... its a bunch of mons in the tier that restrict teambuilding.. lando is the backbone of the ou tier hence u are forced to run it for intimidating physical attackers not just gross.. u run tangrowth to stop zygarde/greninja... u run something like av magearna/toxapex to check ash greninja/non extrasensory gren.. u run heatran to check a choiced lele (if it doesnt go for focus blast)... so even if gross goes, team building is still restricted because of other mons....