Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - The Three of Us

[Orifice Annihilator]

Hello all,

I have just seen an interesting strategy on the ladder! It was the use of the move teleport in conjunction with bringing in a Dugtrio to try and trap one of my Pokemon. Luckily, I Was running the Shed Shell item on all 6 of my Team so this proved to be quite fruitless, but a good try and glad to see innovation like that! I believe more people here should try the item Shed Shell, I don't think it is used nearly enough or known by many people.

Very much liking the discussion on the last page, very nice talking points

 

[Ruft]

The reason Shed Shell is not used that much is that it is practically useless when you're not facing a Dugtrio (which is still the vast majority of games). If you still need to use it just in case of the Dugtrio matchup (which can be valid on Pokemon like Terrakion, Tyranitar, Toxtricity, and even Toxapex), that just goes to show the unhealthiness of Arena Trap, as its mere presence in the metagame is forcing you to run an item that is useless the majority of the time. And even then it's not a bulletproof counterstrategy since Knock Off is very prevalent right now, even on utility Pokemon like Clefable, Toxapex, and Seismitoad.

 

[Orifice Annihilator]

The reason Shed Shell is not used that much is that it is practically useless when you're not facing a Dugtrio (which is still the vast majority of games). If you still need to use it just in case of the Dugtrio matchup (which can be valid on Pokemon like Terrakion, Tyranitar, Toxtricity, and even Toxapex), that just goes to show the unhealthiness of Arena Trap, as its mere presence in the metagame is forcing you to run an item that is useless the majority of the time. And even then it's not a bulletproof counterstrategy since Knock Off is very prevalent right now, even on utility Pokemon like Clefable, Toxapex, and Seismitoad.

I Personally try not to switch my Pokemon holding Shed Shell into Knock Off Pokemon at risk of losing their item Also you could try to use more Flying types or Pokemon with Levitate so that they can avoid getting trapped without using Shed Shell. There are some good Pokemon with these to use!

 

[theotherguytm]

I Personally try not to switch my Pokemon holding Shed Shell into Knock Off Pokemon at risk of losing their item Also you could try to use more Flying types or Pokemon with Levitate so that they can avoid getting trapped without using Shed Shell. There are some good Pokemon with these to use!

But you said you run Shed Shell on all your mons. How do you not switch one into Knock Off then???
Fr, mods can you do something about this troll. He's derailing the thread and clearly has no metagame knowledge.

 

[Showdown_Noob]

Trapping, as a whole, is uncompetitive. Regardless of whether or not the good pokemon have levitate or are flying/ghost types, it still deserves to be banned.
Why do you think shadow tag was banned? Because it promoted trapping with even less counterplay, regardless of how useless the pokemon is.
No one cares if you have shed shell, levitate, or a "counter" to AT. It needs to go because of that, because you need to run a counter, because there is such a massive constraint on teambuilding just to beat it.
Also notice AT ban, not dugtrio ban. If previous gens are anything to go by, banning duggy is not gonna solve the problem, it's just gonna promote diglett and trapinch usage.

 

[Orifice Annihilator]

But you said you run Shed Shell on all your mons. How do you not switch one into Knock Off then???
Fr, mods can you do something about this troll. He's derailing the thread and clearly has no metagame knowledge.

If I have to switch a Pokemon into Knock Off, it will be a Pokemon that does not require the Shed Shell, such as a Levitate or Flying-type as I have stated above which cannot be trapped by Arena Trap. Here are some examples of good Pokemon according to the Smogon Viability Rankings that cannot be trapped:

1. Corviknight
2. Hydreigon
3. Aegislash
4. Dragapult
5. Rotom Heat Forme
6. Rotom Wash Forme
7. Mandibuzz
8. Gengar
9. Togekiss
10. Hawlucha
11. Mantine
12. Rotom Mow Forme

These are all ranked B-tier to S-tier in the Viability Rankings and are very good Pokemon! You and others should try and explore these Pokemon and incorporate some more into your team to become even more Dugtrio-proof!

I also suggest the use of the Ground-resist berry, Shuca Berry. Using it on a common Dugtrio victim such as Tyranitar or Terrakion can lure Dugtrio right in and take him out for the rest of your team to never have to worry about I have a team also featuring the above Pokemon and some Shuca Berry equippers, and will post it if there is enough interest in the community...

 

[theotherguytm]

If I have to switch a Pokemon into Knock Off, it will be a Pokemon that does not require the Shed Shell, such as a Levitate or Flying-type as I have stated above which cannot be trapped by Arena Trap. Here are some examples of good Pokemon according to the Smogon Viability Rankings that cannot be trapped:

1. Corviknight
2. Hydreigon
3. Aegislash
4. Dragapult
5. Rotom Heat Forme
6. Rotom Wash Forme
7. Mandibuzz
8. Gengar
9. Togekiss
10. Hawlucha
11. Mantine
12. Rotom Mow Forme

These are all ranked B-tier to S-tier in the Viability Rankings and are very good Pokemon! You and others should try and explore these Pokemon and incorporate some more into your team to become even more Dugtrio-proof!

I also suggest the use of the Ground-resist berry, Shuca Berry. Using it on a common Dugtrio victim such as Tyranitar or Terrakion can lure Dugtrio right in and take him out for the rest of your team to never have to worry about I have a team also featuring the above Pokemon and some Shuca Berry equippers, and will post it if there is enough interest in the community...

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-471196

 

[Orifice Annihilator]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-471196

Thank you for linking this battle which I thoroughly enjoyed and for helping me demonstrate my above points. Note how the Dugtrio was unable to trap the Mandibuzz, Aegislash, Dragapult and Rotom Heat Forme. This player has the right idea!

 

[galarian darmanitan]

I'm all for banning AT but I think, in a twisted way behind all of his irony and disrespect, the Orifice Annihilator guy does have 1 good point from a logical standpoint.

Saying an item is suboptimal is honestly a really hard statement to just make relative to the metagame. If dugtrio is a huge threat to your team, and shed shell allows you to win more games over a large sample size than you would by using another item (despite its underperformance in games w/o dug) then its technically no longer really suboptimal in case of the overall metagame.

Shed shell really isn't too fundamentally different of an item than the type specific damage reducing berries. There are games where the berries don't proc, but if the games in which they save your ass and help hold your gameplan together for a win are more than the ones where the opportunity cost of not having something else loses you the game, then its a good tech for all intents and purposes that appropriately answers the metagame and not a suboptimal option.

AT is blatantly broken and dug is overcentralizing+cancer, but not everything that encourages a smart tech of some sort is. The whole suboptimal item argument is just really flawed. It's no different from using a nonstandard stat spread or uncommon move in order to beat a mons checks. If this shed shell argument becomes precedent it could lead to a slippery slope of banning stuff just because the stuff it normally counters and checks have to do something untraditional to beat it.

 

[zbr]

Thank you for linking this battle which I thoroughly enjoyed and for helping me demonstrate my above points. Note how the Dugtrio was unable to trap the Mandibuzz, Aegislash, Dragapult and Rotom Heat Forme. This player has the right idea!

see the thing is, it's not just simply about the item. let's look at it from a battle perspective then.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8ou-471196

You can see that from this team the best two mons TaceBreeze could use against FLCL was Toad and Clef and guess what traps them and kills them? Duggy. In this game, let's assume that since you are okay with forgoing with leftovers on Toad and Clef, you opted to run shed shell to turn the whole team untrappable by arena trap. You can see that Toad comes in and flat out just get knocked off on turn 2. When this happens then you're immediately trappable by dug and that just leaves you vulnerable to being trapped and this replay shows that once toad is out the way heattom can easily pivot around and give TaceBreeze problems.

This shows that
1. Shed Shell may be an answer to trapping but it is extremely prone to being removed due to the ubiquity of Knock Off
2. Having Shed Shell indicates that you have to maneuver around Knock off instead of Dugtrio to prevent being trapped.

I understand that having to make meta calls (i.e - playing Shed Shell on Corviknight to dodge a rise in Magnet Rise Meltan or playing Scarf Thunderbolt on Dragapult to bypass Rain HO) but the implications behind these meta calls is that you and your opponent are able to make assumingly equal standing decisions based on what is available as information. Arena Trapping reduces this by negating the decision making skill of the trapped mon. Let's say we return back to the replay and consider Turn 37.

Both players played smart and did the right play on Turn 36 but because Dugtrio was sent out with the intention to lock out Clefable, TaceBreeze went from having the following options:

1. Stay in and attempt to heal up or damage the mon
2. Jump out into another mon to try and sponge the hit.

to only having option 1. Whereas if FLCL decided that Dugtrio couldn't optimally kill Clef, FLCL could just go for option 2 instead of trying to stay in and kill Clef like he did in Turn 37.

Now we know that Clef got successfully trapped, let's evaluate if shed shell would've assisted his team. From team preview, TaceBreeze had 4 mons that were immune to Arena Trapping and in theory, Seismitoad should be able to deal with Dugtrio easily. However, the reality was that with smart playing, Clef and Toad got trapped and removed. From his teambuilding stand point, it didn't justify to have Clef run Shed Shell because of the reasons I listed above. So it doesn't make sense to run Clef with Shed Shell not because of "low risk high punishment" but because it didn't benefit his team at all.

In general, two fundamental aspects of pokemon is violated when we keep arena trap. 1. Stifling team building and forcing to play unoptimal sets (tho this argument can be used for other mons i.e aegislash, this means that those mons were broken to begin with and should be removed but that's another conversation for another day) and 2. not being able to switch out. I don't see a reason to keep something that promotes unhealthy play because I personally have been absolutely violated by dugtrio even when I ran Shed Shell Toxtricity and I have abused Arena Trap as well by utilizing Eject Button Toxapex into Choice Band Dugtrio so I personally understand how insane the information you get by using Dugtrio and the pressure Dugtrio gives off to the opponent when it's in use.

just some food for thought lol.

 

[theotherguytm]

Thank you for linking this battle which I thoroughly enjoyed and for helping me demonstrate my above points. Note how the Dugtrio was unable to trap the Mandibuzz, Aegislash, Dragapult and Rotom Heat Forme. This player has the right idea!

Note it killed them all anyway. Which proves you wrong. This player did exactly as you suggested, and lost, to Dugtrio. Please leave this thread now. This thread is for people who at least understand the basics of the metagame. You have repeatedly shown you know nothing at all about this metagame, and continue to waste threadspace with your pointless garbage. Everyone, please do not react to this obvious troll again or reply to him until the mods get rid of him. Thanks.

I'm all for banning AT but I think, in a twisted way behind all of his irony and disrespect, the Orifice Annihilator guy does have 1 good point from a logical standpoint.

Saying an item is suboptimal is honestly a really hard statement to just make relative to the metagame. If dugtrio is a huge threat to your team, and shed shell allows you to win more games over a large sample size than you would by using another item (despite its underperformance in games w/o dug) then its technically no longer really suboptimal in case of the overall metagame.

Shed shell really isn't too fundamentally different of an item than the type specific damage reducing berries. There are games where the berries don't proc, but if the games in which they save your ass and help hold your gameplan together for a win are more than the ones where the opportunity cost of not having something else loses you the game, then its a good tech for all intents and purposes that appropriately answers the metagame and not a suboptimal option.

AT is blatantly broken and dug is overcentralizing+cancer, but not everything that encourages a smart tech of some sort is. The whole suboptimal item argument is just really flawed. It's no different from using a nonstandard stat spread or uncommon move in order to beat a mons checks. If this shed shell argument becomes precedent it could lead to a slippery slope of banning stuff just because the stuff it normally counters and checks have to do something untraditional to beat it.

I quote the 2nd post, as written by ABR:

Some may say that shed shell can be used to bypass a trapping weakness, but the opportunity cost of using it is immense. For example, a shed shell Pex cannot reliably beat a cm flamethrower Clef and a shed shell Clef cannot reliably wall much of anything.

So you lose much more than you gain with shed shell, but you have to run it anyway.

 

[Child Squad]

A lot of the current meta Pokemon, such as Dracovish, Corviknight, Cinderace, the Rotoms, Pelipper, Cloyster, Hydreigon and Mandibuzz, either have lots of options to switch out when provided with a Dugtrio situation (Cinderace nearly always carries U-Turn, which will either nullify Trio's Focus Sash or just outright kill him) or actually benefit from being trapped just as much as it hurts them (Cloyster can set up Shell Smash easily, and even if he can't his multi-hit moves can destroy Dugtrio without it). It must be kept in mind that even if Dugtrio traps a Pokemon into a loss, this is more of a one-for-one situation as Dugtrio is exceptionally frail without his Focus Sash. Ditto does effectively the same thing, nearly always forcing the loss of a Pokemon or a safe switch-in. If the meta can build itself around new threats like Zeraora, it can build itself around Dugtrio, too.

 

[peng]

I am pro-ban, but I do just want to make a point about Shed Shell and one of the poorer "pro-ban" arguments.

Forcing Pokemon into specific item choices or move choices is nothing new and is not indicative a particular threat being broken. Rather, it is completely inevitable as a metagame adapts. There are many, many examples of Pokemon using highly specialised sets that really only beat 1-2 Pokemon at the expense of others, but that doesn't mean those threats are broken, it just means they are worth preparing for. You have to take into account what is currently good when you teambuild, whether that means running an overly specially defensive spread on a wall to beat Kyurem at the expense of a physical threat, or an obscure coverage move to help wall-break, or Toxic in an unoptimal place, etc etc. Bear in mind BW Keldeo briefly went through a phase of running Expert Belt + HP Bug exclusively to beat Celebi, that DPP Heatran often uses Passho Berry + HP Grass/Explosion to beat otherwise scary offensive waters - these highly specialised sets are a sign of innovation to flip a match-up on its head, not of oppression.

So the issue here isn't that you are pushed into using Shed Shell. The issue is that Dugtrio can support a hugely diverse range of partners which all enjoy the removal of different Pokemon, and therefore Shed Shell in one slot actually doesn't Dugtrio-proof you in the same way as the previous examples. All-in-all, Dugtrio just gives too much influence to team match-up - did you allocate your very limited teambuilding resources to beating this niche Dugtrio strat, or did you miss it in favour of a different set-up?

Sure, when you teambuild, you have in mind combinations like Dugtrio + offensive dragon that want to remove your fairies, so you might be tempted to use Shed Shell Clefable. However, this does nothing for you against Dugtrio + Venusaur on sun, which gives 0 fucks about Clefable and instead wants to remove your Tyranitar / Kyurem / Toxapex, etc. As a result, you have to factor Dugtrio into your teambuilding repeatedly if you actually want to be adequately prepared for all the permutations of Arena Trap support.

At the end of the day, there are so many possible set-ups using Dugtrio that it becomes overwhelming to prepare for every variation. If it was simply a case of slapping Shed Shell on something then that'd be fine, but in reality you've only protected yourself from one of the Dugtrio strategies. If you have anything grounded, you are still at risk of being cheesed by a niche set-up that specifically wants that threat removed, and unfortunately in many cases, when the trap is off then its a near auto-lose. These kind of situations, where one team has a highly-specialised set-up that gives an overwhelming match-up against specific archtypes in the metagame, is one that ruins tournament competitiveness and I think most of us would rather see gone.

(And this isn't even mentioning Knock Off, Trick, Gravity and the myriad of other weird and wonderful ways that hyper-specialised Dugtrio teams can find ways to bypass your preparedness for Arena Trap.)

 

[Orifice Annihilator]

You have repeatedly shown you know nothing at all about this metagame, and continue to waste threadspace with your pointless garbage. Everyone, please do not react to this obvious troll again or reply to him until the mods get rid of him. Thanks.

Hello,

While I am certainly enjoying this discussion please do adhere to the Smogon Rules, particularly as follows:

-Do not insult or flame other users. Correcting users when they say something that's clearly wrong is fine. Calling them a (BAN ME PLEASE) or saying they are stupid/retarded is an automatic 2 point infraction, no exceptions for anyone, badged users included.

Please do not insult me or my ability as it is against the rules, and I have feelings too also I also believe mini-moderating is against the rules too.

Please may we continue with this discussion? A Lot of good points coming out!

 

[galarian darmanitan]

I quote the 2nd post, as written by ABR:

So you lose much more than you gain with shed shell, but you have to run it anyway.

ABR is just pointing out the opportunity cost of using the tech. He's on the nose that it's an immense cost but if you have to use it anyway, then its still the right call.

Again, AT deserves the ban hammer but I really think that this shouldn't be cited as a reason because of the future implications. There are 1000 other reasons to ban this cancer, so just use those instead.

 

[theotherguytm]

Hello,

While I am certainly enjoying this discussion please do adhere to the Smogon Rules, particularly as follows:



Please do not insult me or my ability as it is against the rules, and I have feelings too also I also believe mini-moderating is against the rules too.

Please may we continue with this discussion? A Lot of good points coming out!

From the OP:

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, moreso than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;

Your posts are very uninformed. That's not flaming or disrespectful, that's just obvious to anyone who actually follows this metagame.

I am pro-ban, but I do just want to make a point about Shed Shell and one of the poorer "pro-ban" arguments.

Forcing Pokemon into specific item choices or move choices is nothing new and is not indicative a particular threat being broken. Rather, it is completely inevitable as a metagame adapts. There are many, many examples of Pokemon using highly specialised sets that really only beat 1-2 Pokemon at the expense of others, but that doesn't mean those threats are broken, it just means they are worth preparing for. You have to take into account what is currently good when you teambuild, whether that means running an overly specially defensive spread on a wall to beat Kyurem at the expense of a physical threat, or an obscure coverage move to help wall-break, or Toxic in an unoptimal place, etc etc. Bear in mind BW Keldeo briefly went through a phase of running Expert Belt + HP Bug exclusively to beat Celebi, that DPP Heatran often uses Passho Berry + HP Grass/Explosion to beat otherwise scary offensive waters - these highly specialised sets are a sign of innovation to flip a match-up on its head, not of oppression.

So the issue here isn't that you are pushed into using Shed Shell. The issue is that Dugtrio can support a hugely diverse range of partners which all enjoy the removal of different Pokemon, and therefore Shed Shell in one slot actually doesn't Dugtrio-proof you in the same way as the previous examples. All-in-all, Dugtrio just gives too much influence to team match-up - did you allocate your very limited teambuilding resources to beating this niche Dugtrio strat, or did you miss it in favour of a different set-up?

Sure, when you teambuild, you have in mind combinations like Dugtrio + offensive dragon that want to remove your fairies, so you might be tempted to use Shed Shell Clefable. However, this does nothing for you against Dugtrio + Venusaur on sun, which gives 0 fucks about Clefable and instead wants to remove your Tyranitar / Kyurem / Toxapex, etc. As a result, you have to factor Dugtrio into your teambuilding repeatedly if you actually want to be adequately prepared for all the permutations of Arena Trap support.

At the end of the day, there are so many possible set-ups using Dugtrio that it becomes overwhelming to prepare for every variation. If it was simply a case of slapping Shed Shell on something then that'd be fine, but in reality you've only protected yourself from one of the Dugtrio strategies. If you have anything grounded, you are still at risk of being cheesed by a niche set-up that specifically wants that threat removed, and unfortunately in many cases, when the trap is off then its a near auto-lose. These kind of situations, where one team has a highly-specialised set-up that gives an overwhelming match-up against specific archtypes in the metagame, is one that ruins tournament competitiveness and I think most of us would rather see gone.

(And this isn't even mentioning Knock Off, Trick, Gravity and the myriad of other weird and wonderful ways that hyper-specialised Dugtrio teams can find ways to bypass your preparedness for Arena Trap.)

This is true, you put it a lot better.

Dracovish

In what universe are you trying to trap this??

Corviknight

Untrappable.

Cinderace

Gets outsped and OHKOed.

the Rotoms

Again, untrappable, Heat loses to Stone Edge versions.

Pelipper

Also untrappable, also takes massive damage from Stone Edge.

Cloyster

252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 162-192 (67.2 - 79.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Hydreigon

Again untrappable.

Mandibuzz

Untrappable, loses to Stone Edge.

It must be kept in mind that even if Dugtrio traps a Pokemon into a loss, this is more of a one-for-one situation as Dugtrio is exceptionally frail without his Focus Sash.

Their least valuable mon for a mon of their choice is a great trade. Also, see the many, many examples in this thread of duggy taking down multiple mons in one game, even when on 1 HP.

Ditto does effectively the same thing, nearly always forcing the loss of a Pokemon or a safe switch-in.

Except you can always switch out of Ditto? Hence why we're suspecting Arena Trap, because it stops you doing that with Dugtrio.

 

[Finchinator]

This thread is awful.

Orifice Annihilator is no longer allowed to post in this thread. Any future posts by him will be deleted and infracted beyond the infraction you have already received.

theotherguytm take the next two days to think about who you were responding to and the contents of the last page before thinking about posting again. Same can honestly go for a lot of posters over the last page or so.

@ the rest of you, please only post productively and do not let the thread derail as it has. I am looking forward to seeing well thought-out arguments and civil discussion as opposed to whatever this is.

I do not want to have to lock this, but we are on the verge of this.

 

[Showdown_Noob]

First off, what is up with all the dumb anti-ban arguments? Was leaning towards anti-ban on the basis that many mons could either avoid trapping or kill duggy well, but after seeing some incredibly uninformed posts on the anti-ban side, I am now in favor of a pro-ban. Thanks finch.
Anyway, Dugtrio. Broken due to the ability to revenge most pokemon on the opposing side. One thing people are seriously overlooking is that there are a lot of things dugtrio can kill that aren't trappable, such as (insert flying type here) and rotom-h. (No, I am not suggesting even remotely that duggy is good without at) Arena Trap just adds to that, as it forces losses due to them being unable to switch out and dugtrio's blazing speed tier. Add in a focus sash and Zeraora, one of the top threats in OU and one of the very few that can outspeed it, is OHKOed. The fact that people have been running shed shell at all shows how overbearing this ability is as well.
TL;DR AT is broken due to constraints and too many positive matchups, as well as having very few answers.

 

[Talpr0ne]

Shed shell really isn't too fundamentally different of an item than the type specific damage reducing berries. There are games where the berries don't proc, but if the games in which they save your ass and help hold your gameplan together for a win are more than the ones where the opportunity cost of not having something else loses you the game, then its a good tech for all intents and purposes that appropriately answers the metagame and not a suboptimal option.

I think Shed Shell's problem is that it is overly limited even among niche items. The berries are often useful regardless of what you are facing, because even if you picked them with a specific target in mind they can still help with any supereffective attack; for example, Haban Kommo-o, which runs it primarily for Dragapult, can use it in a pinch to tank an unboosted Draco Meteor from Hydreigon and use it as setup fodder for Dragon Dance. While it is a niche item, it can come in use against a variety of threats. On the other hand Shed Shell is useful against Dugtrio and Dugtrio only (maybe against the other Arena Trap users). Compared to berries, Shed Shell tends to be also much more susceptible to Knock Off.

 

[Pokedom10]

Me: I wonder how the suspect's going? I've been away for a day doing things. Surely, nothing bad will have happene-

oh

ok

Anyways, if (big if at this point) AT stays, what's going to stop the meta from warping unhealthily around it even more than it has before? As has been discussed earlier, there isn't a 100% viable way of preparing for Duggy in some capacity without a large opportunity cost. If Duggy stays (again very very large if), I'll guarantee an optimization will be found to dispatch even larger threats.

 

[TanteMolly]

I vote for ban.

Arena Trap was banned the past generation for a reason. There are many relevant pokemon which get completely shut down by Arena Trap.
Some may say it is a game mechanic. And yes it is. But nevertheless this one takes away a lot of skill from the game. Arena Trap let's you revenge kill with ease. Even Trapinch has a little niche just because of this ability. As a premier evolution... That's literally all what needs to be said.

Let's send this ability up to ubers where it belongs to :)

 

[Ur local kangaroo]

I vote for ban.

Arena Trap was banned the past generation for a reason. There are many relevant pokemon which get completely shut down by Arena Trap.
Some may say it is a game mechanic. And yes it is. But nevertheless this one takes away a lot of skill from the game. Arena Trap let's you revenge kill with ease. Even Trapinch has a little niche just because of this ability. As a premier evolution... That's literally all what needs to be said.

Let's send this ability up to ubers where it belongs to :)

Plus, It traps 3/4 Pokemon that are In Sw/Sh, which seems kinda ridiculous that Dugtrio Gets to Run in OU with Arena Trap

 

[gayradoslover2006]

I believe Dugtrio is uber. It's an easy Pokemon to abuse since it's over powerful, which could be attributed to why it stayed in OU for so long. Its usage statistics over the months display its dominance. The suspect metagame has proven to be more balanced and exciting. Dugtrio's absence will not affect the metagame in an extremely negative way. Counters for other sweepers have been emerging more because there is no longer a need to have an anti-Dugtrio defensive core or revenge killer needed to prevent a mass sweep. The quality of play is enriched without Dugtrio.

 

[GOthee]

B

I vote for ban.

Arena Trap was banned the past generation for a reason. There are many relevant pokemon which get completely shut down by Arena Trap.
Some may say it is a game mechanic. And yes it is. But nevertheless this one takes away a lot of skill from the game. Arena Trap let's you revenge kill with ease. Even Trapinch has a little niche just because of this ability. As a premier evolution... That's literally all what needs to be said.

Let's send this ability up to ubers where it belongs to :)

te who says shutting down some pokes that left unchecked could destroy a meta?? . Btw also banning arena trap would murder poor Trapinch.

 

[Ur local kangaroo]

B

te who says shutting down some pokes that left unchecked could destroy a meta?? . Btw also banning arena trap would murder poor Trapinch.

Did you even see my post above?!