Don't worry I have a slight feeling I know how this works a bit more than you. But clearly you're unable to grasp the fact that I was mocking your arguments where you mentioned about 7/8 different moves on a Pangoro, but it's okay, clearly a Pokemon with terrible bulk and awful Speed with decent typing is unhealthy because I can't run hard stall without running a single great Pokemon out of the plethora of Poison-types or a Fairy-type in Granbull or Togetic (eh this meta but hey do whatcha gotta do).
3 of those moves are set in stone, the other moves can very easily occupy the last slot since Panda can afford it, and do very little to impact Pangoro's wallbreaking ability bar missing out on one/two responses in the whole tier. Also, you keep missing the fact that I mentioned that you want a Poison-type
AND a Fairy-type to counter Pangoro properly, and even then sending in the wrong Pokemon first can still leave you in a very bad spot. More on this later.
If it has Mold Breaker (Which takes a lot away from Drain Punch effectiveness) then sure Weezing / Qwilfish / Garbodor are hit hard (Although people commonly speedcreep a lot with Qwilfish so you're not outpacing that, or most Garbodor this metagame). You aren't able to hit the aforementioned Fairies. tl;dr with every move choice you lose a lot of important coverage, but yeah it does obviously have good matchup against hard-stall, but so do all hard-hitting Pokemon because they do well in wearing shit down like Specs Typh / CB Sawk / LO Jynx. That's it, all it does is do well against hard stall. Your shit 216 Speed won't help you do well against any other playstyle and it will be dead weight lol, but hey what do I know I clearly need to learn how this works
Frankly I dislike Mold Breaker since it gives the set away, although if you lack a Fairy-type then it
doesn't even matter because you have no switch-in for it. If no Mold Breaker is in sight then comes the guesswork. If it hasn't attacked yet then Lum Berry is still in the running. Sending in your Fairy-type first is always a risk since both Fairies get flat out OHKOed by boosted LO Gunk Shot (and non-LO if Stealth Rock is on the field) and you've done nothing to neutralize the threat, so your Poison-type is often your first response. Lum Berry means that Weezing will lose without even scratching Pangoro, and set Qwilfish back in a similiar manner. Garbodor needs a taxing amount of speed investment to even outpace Pangoro, which leaves it without enough bulk to stomach a +2 Knock Off (without Life Orb even), so Panda can KO Garbodor and still be healthy enough to threaten other defensive Pokemon, especially with Drain Punch improving its longevity. God forbid your Qwilfishes and Garbodors start falling behind Pangoro simply because they start running Jolly, which is a very real possibility given the mutual threat they pose to other Pangoros (much like Dragalge), and the power drop from Adamant can be compensated by Swords Dance.
Specs/Scarf Typhlosion is arguably the most metagame defining Pokemon in XY/ORAS NU. Specs Eruption basically blows up almost anything without insane bulk like SpD Rhydon / AV Hariyama. And it definitely has centralized the metagame to the point where you can only really have two/three Pokemon in the tier that reliably take it on and actually do well in the metagame. SpD Rhydon / AV Hariyama / bulky Mega Camerupt (Without SpD investment have fun coming in on Specs Eruption). Typhlosion's Base Speed is 100 and that's great for NU, well at least compared to Pangoro which is 112 Speed points slower than Specs Typhlosion. Obviously Stealth Rock kinda get in the way of Erupting for 150 BP but the only thing that really reliably comes in is Rhydon / Hariyama. And there's things like Kabutops that obviously fear Focus Blast or Extrasensory (Focus Blast and Extrasensory are awesome coverage moves, which is what separates it from Pyroar regarding choiced sets), but it can come in on Eruption and can threaten it with AJet, so I'd say it's a safe check. Not even standard Seismitoads can really effectively come in on Specs Eruptions, which shows the raw power. But I know I'm not the only one tired of Typhlosion. Which is why I'm posting about it
The fact that Typhlosion has to keep itself Choice locked and suffers from a hazard weakness means that it is not hopeless to keep it in check; things like Kabutops, Ninetales, Carracosta, and Lanturn, in addition to the several checks you've mentioned, can keep Typhlosion from going to Eruption crazy, and those full powered Eruptions can only last for so long before things like hazards, priority, and faster attackers start to get in the way, and then its power drops down to similiar levels to
Pyroar, which, as you may have guessed, is not a devastating metagame-warping threat in its own right.
Because I'm the one who needs help fueling their arguments when people have been making fun of your arguments lol, Double-Edge hits remarkably harder and totals 234 Base Power in damage. And if you calc Return and Double-Edge against the counters mentioned you could clearly tell that the damage output is more than noticeable.
You obviously do need help fueling your arguments. I have suggested Return as a supplement to Super Fang because
after a Super Fang, Double-Edge's damage is largely unnecessary to secure the 2HKOes that Return would also achieve on them,
and you suffer no recoil from doing so. Do a little math and calc which of Mega Glalie's responses that get 2HKOed by Double-Edge after a Super Fang don't get 2HKOed by Return at that point anyway (I will knock Piloswine off the answer(s) you can find, just for you~).
How is it even close to being unhealthy omylord if you run hard stall every game then of course it's going to be unhealthy to your slow team that can't outpace 215 on any single Pokemon but hey I mean if you wanna cry about your hard stall getting knocked off then go to the Neverused room and cry about it but until you make a halfway decent argument for a Pokemon with terrible bulk, abysmal Speed and can't fit all 8 moves, 1016 EVs, and 3 items it needs to be broken, I wouldn't bother lol
You have incredibly high standards for bulk for your wallbreaker when you consider that Samurott (95/85/70) isn't what many people would call a 'frail attacker', while Pangoro's 95/78/71 is still fairly respectable especially when you consider Drain Punch healing from its monstrous attack (which it can boost further) and is still fast enough to outspeed a majority of walls. And it's nice that you brought up the 'mass moves / EVs / items' part when I have already suggested 3 set-in-stone moves for Pangoro, never suggested the filler move(s) be used together at once, and didn't even bring up additional EVs and an item. Plus, did I even say Pangoro was broken?
Here's an example scenario, you switch Weezing into a Swords Danced Pangoro, then it Taunts you when you try to Wisp. That exchange alone means you have crossed out Mold Breaker Earthquake, Substitute, Gunk Shot, and Lum Berry from the list (See?? Not 7/8 moves!!). So you try to salvage the situation by switching out your Taunted Weezing for your Togetic against the boosted Pangoro, but let it show that Pangoro can
still plow through it with Knock Off if Stealth Rock is up; at which point, what can the rest of your team do after that?
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Pangoro Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Togetic: 117-138 (37.3 - 44%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
A wallbreaker dismantling teams by making solid predictions is one thing, but the defensive player having their teams dismantled
simply by making a wrong uninformed decision is another. During that exchange, there is close to no prediction on the Pangoro user's part. You can't expect me to believe you use Togetic to face off against Pangoro every time to prevent that scenario from occuring, and
not (eventually) immediately pay the price for it when it pops out a Gunk Shot. Or do you expect defensive players to resort to Granbull every time? Now let's say the Pangoro in the above scenario was Lum Berry; your Weezing still has done effectively nothing
and it could still have Gunk Shot to destroy your Fairy-type.
Anyways I'm done trying to convince somebody that just because his probable hard stall team loses to occasional variants of Pangoro that it isn't unhealthy and sometimes you just have to accept that there's some things that your stall team has a tough time beating instead of giving it eight fucking moves, 1016 EVs and three items in order to make it come off as broken. It's slow as all fucking hell and has absolutely awful bulk, if you continue to run Hard Stall you will obviously have trouble with it. Glad you embarrassed yourself by talking about "This Pokemon does really well when its counters somehow magically disappear and that's why it's unhealthy!"
Lol pls, I speak from both ends that Pangoro can be a goddamned nightmare for defensive teams if they've yet to scout the whole set, and the price for doing so can very easily cost a team member; sometimes countering Pangoro can come down to luck depending on its tech move. This is if you
even run 2 counters to Pangoro in the first place.
Glad this guy helps dictate what stays and goes the NU tier, what a great council member
Thank you for your positive reinforcement, would you like the council to ban Typhlosion from the tier now?
Because that won't happen.
