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np: SUMO UU Stage 1 - Feels Like We Only Go Backwards

Discussion in 'SM UnderUsed' started by Hikari, Feb 9, 2017.

  1. AmaroqVictory

    AmaroqVictory Convict 626. Today... you go free.
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Dec 19, 2015
    With the next tier shift rapidly approaching, I think it is appropriate to mention some things that are not necessarily healthy for the meta in the hopes that the council will address these elements in some manner. I have talked to several other users to gauge their feelings regarding potentially problematic Pokemon in the current meta and will attempt to summarize their concerns below. Note that I am not necessarily arguing for a ban on every Pokemon I mention in this post. I simply want to see the council address them in some way (for example, as a slate of nominations similar to the way votes were handled during beta).

    The Biggest Problems

    Almost everyone I've talked to agreed that the Pokemon in this section were broken and/or unhealthy for the meta.


    I covered my feelings on Clefable here. To summarize for those who don't want to read the post, Clefable's typing, stat spread, abilities, and movepool make it a top tier Pokemon in the current meta. Fairy is a great typing, both offensively and defensively. Magic Guard and Unaware are both excellent abilities that allow Clefable to excel in different roles. Magic Guard allows Clefable to ignore entry hazards and damaging status, which enables it to serve as a defensive pivot and boosting win condition. Unaware, on the other hand, lets Clefable function as an integral member of stall teams by checking many setup sweepers that would normally pressure the playstyle. Clefable's stat spread lets it abuse its typing and abilities by giving it enough bulk and offensive presence to serve the roles it's called upon to fill. Clefable also possesses an expansive movepool that contains many coverage and utility options that allow it to bypass its counters or support its team. Its ability to beat most of its checks with its coverage options means that most teams have to stack Clefable checks in a meta where every Pokemon on a team already has to cover multiple threats.


    Most of the people I've talked to agree that Sharpedo currently places an enormous amount of pressure on teambuilding. Psychic Fangs is the new toy that really pushes it over the edge. The additional coverage allows it to bypass many Pokemon it struggled with before and limits the number of reliable checks available. Very few Choice Scarf users outspeed +1 Mega Sharpedo, so most of its checks need to be able to take a hit and retaliate or pack super effective priority. Since most Pokemon that usually serve as Mega Sharpedo checks are expected to check many other prominent Pokemon as well (Cobalion is generally its team's Bisharp answer, Clefable also checks Dragon-types, etc. This obviously isn't a comprehensive list), wearing down Mega Sharpedo's checks isn't particularly difficult, especially since Sharpedo benefits so much from hazard support and is often seen on offensive teams designed to overload its checks.

    In addition, many people forget that Mega Sharpedo isn't just a good cleaner. It is also a powerful wallbreaker that can put in a lot of work against bulkier teams, thanks to 140 base Attack, Strong Jaw, and moves that can take advantage of its ability for a pseudo-STAB boost.

    The More Controversial Pokemon

    When I asked people what Pokemon they thought were unhealthy in the current meta, a few of them mentioned these Pokemon. While they are not as commonly considered problems as the Pokemon above, enough people felt they were problematic that I believe that the council should at least discuss them. I would appreciate it if any council members were to share their opinions on these Pokemon and their influence on the tier.


    Alakazam was already strong before the RBY transfers became available, and Counter added a great deal to its value for offensive teams. Before, it was forced to rely on Thunder Wave to serve as a stop to Pokemon that threaten the offensive teams it often finds itself on. Thunder Wave was unreliable because it had the chance to miss or could be nullified with the appropriate item. Additionally, Alakazam often died in the process of using Thunder Wave to stop threats. With Counter, it becomes a much more reliable stop to most of the tier's physical attackers. Alakazam can reliably grab a kill against most physical attackers and still threaten the opposing team with its impressive offensive stats. In addition, Alakazam is less concerned with its coverage options now that it has access to Counter. Before, Alakazam users had to select coverage carefully to beat the threats to their teams, but now Alakazam doesn't face that same type of pressure because it can select the physical attacker it wants to remove and simply click Counter.


    This Pokemon is mostly considered unhealthy, rather than broken. Serene Grace in conjunction with access to Air Slash and Thunder Wave make Togekiss incredibly frustrating to play against. Its play pattern mostly involves relying on RNG rather than outplaying the opponent (for example, its Nasty Plot set breaks stall essentially by flinching everything to death). While Serene Grace is the major reason Togekiss is so unhealthy, it also has the typing, bulk, and offensive/utility movepool to be useful even without it. Fairy/Flying is a great typing, especially when coupled with moves like Roost, Defog, Thunder Wave, and Heal Bell. It even has an excellent offensive movepool that allows it to lure offensive checks.

    Hopefully this will provoke some useful discussion. I am very interested in hearing the thoughts of the council regarding these Pokemon and their effects on the metagame, as well as how we should handle potentially problematic Pokemon when our main focus is on retesting things that were banned during Beta.
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2017


    Jan 9, 2014
    All 4 of those mons are pretty meta defining imo, but what bouff (I think) said about Clef's impact on the tier is pretty accurate. Yeah, it can perform many roles and can be splashed onto many teams, but I think that is what makes the meta more balanced. It's pretty defining, and teams have to carry some counter measure against the CM set, but the things that can pressure clef are organic and good in the tier. Things such as Scizor, Gengar, Nidos, and Bisharp are good in the tier as is, and teams shouldn't struggle to play against Clefable. Of course team's are gonna lose to CM clef if they let their counters get taken out, but it's in a similar vein to how CroCune functioned last gen.

    I think Sharpedo Mega deserves to be suspected down the line. It was pretty decent last gen, but the fact that it got Psychic fangs (strong jaw boosted), prankster nerf (keys twave and sableye willo), and the mega speed buff makes this thing pretty restrictive in terms of teambuilding when building anything other than stall imo. Balanced, BO, and offense just get crushed by Sharpedo. Would be reliable switch ins, such as keldeo last gen, just get dunked on by sharpedo mega. The only two things viable on offense that can really take a hit from it is hydreigon (which isn't seen often) and cobalion. Clef can take a hit which is great tho. It can be sort of checked by having priority in the forms of mach punch or vacuum wave, but tbh, I believe those to be pretty inferior options and a bit of a stretch to have just to beat it. While I don't think Sharpedo is outright broken, I do think any one who builds often puts Sharpedo in the top 5 mons to watch out for when building.

    Alakazam imo is just fine in the tier. Counter is cool tech, but I just haven't seen too many zams that teams cant really handle. It it runs counters + STAB, your movepool caters to only a small portion of the tier. With sash, it acts as a good revenge killer and good mon to fight offense, but it lacks the reliable high bp moves to crush other types of teams. Idk, it seems on paper it's really good in the meta, but every time I have faced one, I never felt it was as threatening as something like a cm clef or mega sharp or even sd bisharp. I think Alakazam is definitely a top tier threat for sure, A+ even, but I don't think it fits on many team archetypes and more importantly it's best role is facing against offense.

    Togekiss I pretty much completely disagree. Yeah, para flinch or flinching in general really sucks and makes it frustrating to play against, but it's not so great against most balanced or offensive teams. the NP set can roll through stall if you lack something like mega aero or whatever (esp since we don't have zapdos), but against most teams that carry something like raikou, sd bisharp, etc, togekiss acts just as an ok pivot. It takes a fuckton from Mega Sharp waterfall if its running 248hp/ 252 spe timid. If you run bulk, you risk getting outsped by things like jolly sharp, taunt stall breaker gliscor, etc. If you run a defog set (which is bad imo), you completely rely on flinching to beat mons, which is no worse than relying on scald to burn sd sweepers. It works similarly to specially defensive rachi when it was UU in XY.

    This gen there's a lot of things to account for. It's hard to build balanced teams that have answers to Specs primarina, SD gliscor, and hp electric volcanion, and those aren't even the really defining mons of this gen. On top of that, you have to find ways to deal with SD Scizor, SD Bisharp, Sand offense, CroCune, subcm raikou, so of course it's gonna feel overwhelming. It's hard to think what mon is the straw that breaks the camerupt's back, but I like that these discussions are trying to pinpoint them.
    Lord Esche, tenkai, mashonem and 2 others like this.
  3. Patrick1088


    Jul 7, 2013
    So, with Beedrillite and Mawilite being released, do we know when these will be implemented on the ladder? Not sure if they will be quick banned (curious to try M-Mawile), but M-Beedrill's speed buff is going to be fun. It doesn't have to run protect anymore and can bring Drill Run and Knock Off (Or SD + KO which is better for cleaning up and hits mostly everything bar Cobalion- which you can just U-Turn out).
  4. Eyan

    Eyan the great one with wings of steel
    is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator

    Apr 11, 2014
    Both of those have already been implemented, but since Megas are tiered separately, they start out in OU like any other Pokemon would be if it were introduced in the middle of a generation. You're going to have to wait for them to drop via usage, so for the time being, discussing them is kinda pointless.
  5. bsu

    is a Tiering Contributor

    Aug 6, 2014
    theres also no way in hell mega-mawile is coming down to UU lmao

    also i feel like sharpedo's effectiveness in the tier isn't as amazing as it seems, sure it can sweep a weakened team late game but so cant like every other offensive threat in the metagame??
    it cant switch in for shit and somewhat relies on protect. offense should have priority/pressure against it, balanced should also have priority or some fat mons, and stall obvs should be running the fattest of the fat (almomolaolaal) or equivalent
    Heroes and Cons and tenkai like this.
  6. A Cake Wearing A Hat

    A Cake Wearing A Hat

    Feb 20, 2017
    Short on time right now, going to post some quick thoughts about Azumarill, primarily the band set.

    I'm mixed about Azu, to be honest. It's definitely very very powerful, capable of 2HKOing or OHKOing several defensive and offensive mons in the tier with neutral attacks, but it also has a large number of downsides preventing it from being quite as broken as the other wallbreakers we've resuspected so far.

    I feel that a lot of comparisons can be made between banded Azumarill and our other resident water/fairy wallbreaker, Primarina. They're both capable of switching in on certain offensive threats with their excellent typing, and they both have very few guaranteed switch-ins. Azu has the advantages of being able to KO empoleon (with Superpower if it runs it) and Blissey (By being a physical attacker), being physically bulkier than Prima to better switch in to resisted physical attacks, and it also has reliable STAB priority to pressure faster mons. However, Primarina has the advantages of being generally faster than Azumarill, being specially bulkier than Azumarill, and not getting walled by Volcanion (Unless it's AV) and Amoonguss.

    Of these points, I feel that aqua jet is the biggest bonus Azu has over Primarina.

    Banded Azu often gets pressured out after dealing one hit due to either its low speed or a water immunity/resist that the opponent is packing, and doesn't have U-turn, unlike our previous two suspects. This makes Azu somewhat of a liability for hyper offense, as I've found, since it's a bit of a momentum sink.

    As I mentioned earlier, the band Azu set gets countered quite well by Amoonguss and Volcanion, although Volcanion is vulnerable to rocks and repeated switches due to its lack of reliable recovery, and Amoon can be lured by using Ice Punch as a fourth move if you wish to do so.

    As for the belly drum sets, I feel that Azu can definitely be an extremely effective sweeper for unprepared teams, but it is hard-checked by several water or priority immune mons, such as Tsareena or Toxicroak, due to the BD set's overreliance on aqua jet to deal with faster threats.

    One major problem I see with Azumarill is that the counters for the band set and the checks for the BD set have very little overlap, and attempting to scout opposing Azumarill to see which set it is could result in an extremely tense situation due to belly drum. This unpredictability, I feel, is Azumarill's greatest asset at the current moment in the metagame.

    In conclusion, there are a lot of positive and negative points about Azumarill to keep in mind. It's not the best fit for all team archetypes, but it can definitely perform extremely well in either of its two roles on archetypes such as Bulky Offense or balance. I could see this vote going either way, but I'm somewhat leaning towards ban right now.
    cappino, eht, tmacbalanced and 2 others like this.
  7. dodmen

    dodmen Ain't no tuition for havin' no ambition
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Global Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    UU Leader

    Jan 12, 2014
    I can agree that Mega Sharpedo is one of the most devastating Pokemon for most teams to face, whether it's offense balance or stall, especially when it's paired with Froslass or Klefki. The best answers are Hydreigon, Cobalion, Togekiss (somewhat shaky unless it has TWave), Clefable, Mandibuzz, and defensive Scizor (shaky). Other soft answers like Primarina, Amoonguss, and Volcanion rely on limiting Sharpedo's team to just SR and staying fully healthy until Sharpedo comes in, which is manageable, but cannot be guaranteed especially against Froslass. That being said, the answers I listed are really good options that fit on most teams (besides Mandibuzz), and Sharpedo can also be taken down with priority. I would say that Mega Sharpedo is the most "problematic" Pokemon right now in terms of preparing for, and I expect it to be voted on after the upcoming tier shift.

    As for Clefable, I think the qualities listed in this post describe why it's a really good Pokemon, but not necessarily a broken Pokemon. While it's definitely necessary to stack Clefable checks on anything but bare HO, I don't think that's so unreasonable considering how many Pokemon can act as a Clefable check. Bisharp, Scizor, Cobalion, Gengar, Gliscor, Togekiss, Volcanion, Amoonguss, Tentacruel, Empoleon, Gastrodon, and Nidoking/queen (just from skimming the upper ranks of the viability thread) all function as Clefable checks, and considering how good these Pokemon are, I don't find it that difficult to have more than answer to Clefable naturally fit on my teams. That's not even accounting for the Pokemon that put huge offensive pressure on it, which includes Primarina, Entei, Keldeo, and more, as well as various Pokemon that run coverage to, at the very least, prevent it from doing its job, if not outright KO it (Absol, Conkeldurr, Krookodile). Overall, it just has been possible to play around, scout for coverage, and apply pressure, as with many other top threats. And on top of that, it's an amazing tool for balance teams so they can actually check many of the threats in the tier. While it's undoubtedly one of the (if not the) best Pokemon in UU, and I fully expect it to be nominated for a vote as well, but it definitely has flaws and I've personally not found it as unbalanced as I thought I would the day it dropped.

    As for Togekiss, I fully agree that it's one of the most annoying Pokemon for anything defensive to face. There are answers even for stall teams though - Aerodactyl counters it and is good on stall in general, faster Gliscor can also make its way onto defensive teams, and Unaware Clefable takes it on pretty reliably. TWave sets are annoying as fuck for offense, but not something I'd consider broken. Offensive sets are cool to lure stuff, as you said, but it generally gives up its best matchups to do so. And as for Alakazam, Counter definitely added another element and an easier guaranteed kill against offense, but I don't think it's anywhere near unmanageable.

    CB Azumarill has been really strong, but not anywhere near as bad as it was hyped up to be in beta. For one, literally every offensive Pokemon besides like Conkeldurr outspeeds it; Jolly isn't worth it because neutral Speed Primarina and Bewear still outspeed, and at that point it can't 2HKO stuff like Slowbro. This is a huge part of what differentiates it from wallbreakers like Staraptor and Victini. People have brought up the fact that its typing affords it many Free switchin opportunities, but that hasn't been the case from my experience. A lot of what it theoretically wants to switch in on, like Keldeo Latias Blastoise and Gliscor, can either outright 2HKO it with a STAB, threaten with a status, or just Knock Off its item. This leaves it able to switch in on slow, passive defensive Pokemon like Hippowdon and Clefable, but it's still able to be pivoted around with stuff like Amoonguss, Tentacruel, Slowbro, Alomomola, or defensive Scizor - of course, all of these take a shitton of damage from neutral moves, but can still function as fairly decent pivots. CB Azu seems to be a great wallbreaker overall, but not over the edge into broken territory for me.

    The BD set is really good at punishing switches to these defensive Pokemon, but requires a lot of support in order to setup. Honestly the most effective use of the BD set for me has been setting up early game to OHKO one of these walls, rather than trying to sweep at the end of the game. Even then, this won't work if the opponent has a Quagsire or Unaware Clefable. Maybe we could also see itemless Amoonguss become a thing, like itemless Tangrowth was last gen, to tank a +6 Knock Off. This would obviously also help against other Knock Off users like Mega Absol and Crawdaunt.
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2017
    Panther-T, wishes, Tony and 19 others like this.
  8. Ov3r Ac3

    Ov3r Ac3 formerly RU Serious Bruh

    Oct 10, 2015
    Hello guys Stalling roomtours is gonna say which mons I think are prominent in the meta rn. Gimme likes this took more time than a 300 turn stall match.

    Yup, I'm saying Clefable is dumb. Maybe not as it is too good per say but it definately over-centralizes the meta. You have to run 1 of 3 steels to counter this mon (Coba, Scizor, Bisharp) with offensive poison types being quite bad in this meta because of the use of many ground type and steel type pokemon. Every team except HO doesn't lose anything by using Clefable as it has many sets it can run. Those sets are; Magic Guard CM, Unaware CM, Unaware Wall, and offensive or defensive Stealth Rocks, I even tested out LO CM Clef with CM/Softboiled/Fireblast/Psychic paried with a Fairy to lure in steels and poisons. So after you have Clef + Coba/Bisharp/Scizor you need a counter to opposing Steels so why not add some nice Specs Volc or Scarf Chande/Nape to easily handle these mons. Thats pretty much the basis on all teams in UU I come across or you know the classic stall team consisting of Bliss/Clef/Amoonguss/Alomomola/Quagsire/Hazard Control.


    What do you do when you see these on the opposing team? A) X B) Think about last team you saw months ago which wasnt stall that didn't have one of these or C) Don't have anything here but can't just say A) and B). Now to be serious, lets start with Bisharp. Bisharp is so good right now with it seemingly fitting perfectly into any offensive build as it can just pressure team that rely on Defog with Defiant and if you pair this with a ghost lets say Specs Chandelure it makes it nearly impossible for someone to get away hazards. This core also handles Stall very well with Chande's breaking abilities appreciated by Bisharp to just clean through stall. Overall I'm leaning towards Ban on Bish as it makes hazard stack team very hard to deal with. Now to go to Scizor, Scizor is one of those mons along with Clef is just high reward low risk as SD sets can still break opposing teams with lets say Arcanine as its main checks (fire types) get weakened heavily by Stealth Rocks so lets say you SD on switch then U-turn out to Keldeo you pressure Arcanine out to take more SR Damage when you switch in your Sciz again. CB Scizor is a really valuable breaker for balance as it can form a great Volt-Turn core with lets say Specs Raikou + maybe Nidoking for Nidking to nuke something when one of opponents mons that die to Nidoking come in. Leaning towards Ban for this too. Now Coba looks like it didn't get many buffs this gen but it most definately did. With Z-moves becoming a thing it took away one big weakness Coba had which was it didn't really hit hard enough but now with an All-Out-Pummeling it can 2hko Quagsire if Quag is switching in on Coba on an AOP into a CC if Quag was on 80% with rocks. With more fary types coming down to UU as well it makes Fighting types less common as they're simply not as good if they do not have strong Steel or Poison attacks. With this in mind I'm still leaving to No-Ban anyway.

    So Alakazam got banned from UU last gen, but is even better this gen as it can actually beat Bisharp 1 on 1 if Zam is at full health. This I feel is quite stupid as Zam does not even have to risk a Focus Miss with it getting a cool new toy with the name of Counter. Using CounterSash it also beats most physical sweepers and causes insane mind games. Zam also has another set which is LO this set is absurdly powerful and doesn't even suffer the drawback of -10% because of Magic Guard. Because of these reasons with Alakazam getting even better this gen I'm going to have to say Ban.

    Ban this monster. Azumarill is pretty much a physical Primarina with the option of instead of breaking down walls just sweeping offensive teams with +6 boosted Aqua Jet. Azu also doesn't have the drawback of getting walled infinitely by a monsterous physical wall as Prim does in the form of Blissey. Even Quag and Clef can die to Azu if they get flinched by Waterfall so that is also something Primarina can't do. Don't have mush more to add as other people has covered a lot of points.

    Ban for Sharpedo. Psychic Fangs make it way too good.
  9. A Cake Wearing A Hat

    A Cake Wearing A Hat

    Feb 20, 2017
    I feel like Bisharp and Scizor are extremely manageable compared to, say, Sharpedo. Both mons have reliable checks and counters, such as Keldeo, Cobalion if they aren't carrying low sweep/superpower, Infernape, Hippowdon, and several bulky water types and Doublade for Scizor's case. And none of the mons that I've mentioned are weak to stealth rocks. These steels are also incredibly useful for checking Clefable and other threats which are plaguing the meta. I personally think these two mons are rather healthy for the current meta, despite being somewhat centralizing, and don't deserve to be banned at the current moment.

    This is a point that I agree with wholeheartedly. Alakazam now has very few guaranteed checks, with those among them being Klefki, Dual Chop haxorus, Hydreigon if the Zam doesn't carry gleam, and also Decidueye and Doublade. and will almost always get at least one KO per game due to sashcounter's reliability compared to focus blast. Zam is also a very potent revenge killer of weakened Latias, Celebi, Cobalion, and other mons, and can be switched in safely regardless of hazards due to Magic Guard.

    A few calcs for reference:
    252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Decidueye: 180-214 (60.2 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- Proof that Decidueye can be a functional Zam check (Not a switch-in) with Spirit Shackle+Sucker Punch

    252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 192 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 156-184 (48.4 - 57.1%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO -- Same situation for doublade with two shadow sneaks.

    Please note that the mons will sustain heavy damage in both of these situations.

    Useful calcs for revenge kills:
    252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 144-170 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO
    252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Celebi: 180-212 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cobalion: 350-414 (108.3 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cobalion: 198-234 (61.3 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    TL;DR ban zam
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2017
    Gorechomp likes this.
  10. Sacri'

    Sacri' Still standing
    is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Feb 10, 2015
    Won't adress the part regarding Clefable as I already made clear I was in favor of banning it in this post. I've noticed a lot of complaints regarding Sharpedo recently so posting how I feel about it can't do much wrong. While I agree that it is extremely threatening right now, I also feel like it still has some flaws which prevents the much feared late game sweep from happening. The fact that Sharpedo heavily relies on protect to be able to outspeed what it's supposed to take out usually means a loss of momentum which can make it more manageable especially if it's used on offensive oriented teams. As dodmen stated, the checks it has are rather splashable. I agree that Cobalion can be weakened, however I feel like preventing Clef from completely shutting Sharpedo down is a much harder task. Magic Guard means that it can ignore spikes which are usually a good way for Sharpedo to weaken what could otherwise take a hit and kill it back. Clefable is incredibly splashable and is therefore used on a huge amount of teams which means those teams wont have that much trouble dealing with Sharpedo as long as the Clefable user plays it decently. Something else that I found a bit annoying when I last used Shark is that it heavily relies on the power given by it's mega evolved form to take out most threats. Thing is, if the opponent's Sharpedo check happens to be alive but you still have to mega evolve to KO something like Raikou or Primarina it just means that Sharpedo wont be able to sweep late game. That's just something to take account of when using Sharpedo, it's not a major flaw just something that needs to be considered when Sharpedo is being mentioned. Still, these factors added to Clefables popularity are enough to make Sharpedo manageable as far as I am concerned. That being said, if Clefable leaves either due to usage or because it gets banned I think beating Sharpedo will turn into a much more complicated matter.

    Alakazam is indeed very strong right now, Counter allows it to threaten offensive teams to an even greater extent which is a positive aspect to me, if anything. I feel like the current tier just has enough priority users/scarf users/ and other things like Aero that make Alakazam manageable. Sash variant is still walled by things like Clefable or even Hippo while LO variant is much easier to revenge kill. Klefki has also an easy time coming into Alakazam which makes it easier to deal with for Bulky offensive teams.

    Don't get me wrong, Togekiss does have the potential to be very annoying at times. Still, it has quite a few counterplays, as others have pointed out Togekiss sometimes has trouble beating Stall thanks to Unaware Clef or Aero which means it may not be able to accomplish what it's supposed to. It also gives a free hit to things like Nidoking which can't be ignored either. Overall, Togekiss is just a very good mon that has the potential to cause a bit of trouble if it gets lucky enough, however the amount of faster threats clearly mitigates that issue.

    I also want to share my point of view on Azumarill. As a few have pointed out, bulky offensive teams are really popular right now which means these teams deal with Azumarill simply by pressuring it enough which isn't that hard to do considering how slow it is. However, I feel like Azumarills ability to throw extremely strong hits that have little to no actual switch ins is still an actual problem simply because Aqua Jet can also pick up some popular threats if they have been weakened a bit thus meaning that pressuring it may not be enough. I also find the guessing game bewteen CB & Belly Drum extremely frustrating as a lot of things end up being forced to stay in simply because if Azumarill gets to +6 for free it usually still has enough hp to claim a few kills before going down. It may not be as busted as it was back in beta yet I still find it way too threatening considering the current state of the metagame. I'm yet again leaning towards ban for this suspect.
    wishes, Dakress, AbrarWasee and 23 others like this.
  11. King UU

    King UU even Zen-Oh-sama will be blown away!
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tutor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    UU Tour Champion

    Feb 25, 2014
    Azu is so good that even bad King UU sets are being used successfully.

    Azumarill @ Assault Vest
    Ability: Huge Power
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Aqua Jet
    - Knock Off
    - Play Rough
    - Ice Punch

    One of my favourite sets these days.

    EVs can be adjusted to hit a slightly higher speed, but this Azu isn't really meant to outspeed anything, more so surprise things that expect to take care of it. Finds high success against the likes of Primarina, Gengar, Celebi, Gliscor (if for whatever reason they think Choice Band, it's easy to bluff with that kind of power), and there are a few more. Play Rough is still strong enough to take care of Cobalion in two hits, as well as some other annoying bulky offensive Pokemon. Knock Off dishes out enough damage against Psychics to let Aqua Jet clean up. I definitely think this set is more niche, and very heavily team dependent, but that's always been my style so I make no apologies.

    Anyway, yeah, I'm banning the shit out of this thing. The strength of the banded set is still quite overwhelming for the tier to handle, and Azu propels this water-fairy building mentality that really stifles the way people build their teams. I had to resort to an Assault Vest team just to build something "different" to test Azu's capabilities.

    In my opinion, Azu is simply too strong for this tier to embrace. If it were to stay, it would be the highest of the S rank, which is never a good sign for a Pokemon during a suspect test.
  12. Bengsu


    Dec 23, 2015
    Hey guys felt like chiming in on the Azu retest and then talking about some of the more powerful Mons in the tier and a possible answer to some of them. First of all Azu is so powerful that I'm really hoping it will go to BL. In comparison to something like Primarina which is pretty easy to scout the set and or switch your wall/pivot into. Azu however, you have to fear the knock off/or the possibility of Azu belly drumming up in your face. Final thoughts on Azu = listen to King UU!!BAN
    Moving past the Azu retest I see some talk about the likes of Clefable and Mega-Sharpedo needing to be tested along with steel types like bisharp/scizor. While they are powerful I see a mon that puts in work against all of them.Enter the monster that is...
    (Conkeldurr) @ Flame Orb
    Ability: Guts
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Drain Punch
    - Knock Off
    - Poison Jab
    - Mach Punch

    Conk gets the priority mach punch kill off on Mega Shark while still living a psychic fangs (if you keep hazards off your side of the field when you switch it in). This man laughs at Bisharp even if it switched into get a Defiant boost and KO's back with mach punch or drain punch respectively. This set can also be used to deal with CB Scizor and can heavily dent Clefable's if they haven't set up along with switch in freely if they are packing Twave (assuming FlameOrb activated). Obviously this is all set and situation dependent but just wanted to showcase the point that while Clef/Bish/Sciz/MegaShark/etc are all very strong they are by no means overwhelming and are much easier to set scout, unlike Azumarill. Looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts as Gen7 continues :)
  13. Moutemoute


    Dec 11, 2015
    Even with Burn nerf please don't use Flame Orb on him :(
    You're wasting your object-slot just to activate Guts while is very easy to activate it without that. Scald burn is still there..

    To my mind it's a real waste to pack Flame orb when you can increase your Staying Power with lefties, bulk with AV or dammage with cb (for cb guts version obv).
    Korago likes this.
  14. jonasztracz


    Jan 28, 2017
    My only comment so far was about Toxicroak and now that Azu is back I need to repeat myself. Croak can switch into 3 of 4 Azumarill's attacks quite freely and KO it back with a Gunk Shot or force it out, as it doesn't have to fear priority Aqua Jet thanks to its ability. Also:
    • 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Toxicroak: 137-161 (37 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    Play Rough is a clean KO though, mind.
    Also, not that Azu is the only reason to use Toxicroak. It also stops Keldeo and its stab combo of Focus Punch and Gunk Shot set nukes half of the tier. It can't break through some of the most physical walls like Gliscor, Hippo or Mola, but it's still a great mon to use. Give the Croak some love it deserves.
    OrangeGuru likes this.
  15. Bengsu


    Dec 23, 2015
    Only reasoning i had Flame Orb is so that you get the immediate 1.5x on Conk's attacks since you still have good recovery with Drain punch, AV and lefties are both legitimate options as well tho!! (I just personally haven't used them so I thought id recommend what I've actually used :P)
  16. Hikari

    Hikari full metal bitch
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
    UU Co-Leader

    Jun 6, 2010
    I'm starting to believe Azumarill is more overhype than anything else.

    It's incredibly slow, to the point Speed creeping anything but slow walls and other Azumarill is rather pointless. Jolly Max Speed Azumarill is slower than Modest Primarina / Adamant Bewear and everything above that, which includes pretty much every single "slow hard hitter", so that kind of creeping is straight up undoable. Azumarill does have good bulk, so being "forced" into investing EVs onto its bulk is alright, but you can't just run 252 HP / 252 Atk because that would make it slower than most walls, which is a problem for a Pokemon like that. Adamant Azumarill needs 84 Speed EVs to outspeed Clefable, 128 for Alomomola, 164 for Mantine, and 244 for Mandibuzz, so you can creep those Pokemon (Mandibuzz is prolly a bit too much) but you lose a significant amount of bulk even for the slowest one and you still need to be prepared for the Azumarill vs Azumarill creeping. Jolly makes creeping easier, but makes Azumarill way weaker.

    People claim Azumarill has absurd power, but it's not even top 3 hardest hitter in the tier.

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spinda: 438-516 (167.8 - 197.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spinda: 403-475 (154.4 - 181.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Bewear Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spinda: 474-558 (181.6 - 213.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spinda: 466-550 (178.5 - 210.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spinda: 405-477 (155.1 - 182.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spinda: 408-480 (156.3 - 183.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Spinda: 405-477 (155.1 - 182.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    (Spinda has 60/60/60 bulk. Useful for calcs)

    Just some examples. Still missing pretty much every single usable Dragons, things that don't even need choice items, and some less common shit. Note how some of don't need to run +nature and how every single one of them is faster. Power is definitely not the only thing that makes Azumarill good, but it's pretty clear that it being "overwhelmingly strong" isn't an actual problem.

    Azumarill does have some good things going for, like the combination of bulk and typing, which makes switch in easier than for Pokemon like Crawdaunt and Volcanion. Belly Drum is fine, but it's a very high risk move that doesn't even guaranteed sweeping, because most teams naturally carry multiple Pokemon that can check Azumarill at +6, and pre-boost Azumarill is honestly quite weak (doesn't kill Mega Aero with Aqua Jet after SR damage, for example). If you weaken the Water-type resistances / Pokemon that can tank +6 Aqua Jet and remove Pokemon like Scizor and Volcanion, Azumarill can clean up, but that's easier said than done and a strong setup sweeper cleaning up late game isn't unheard off. Also BD is completely useless vs stall, as it lacks the power to break the usual walls without boosts and Unaware stops it from ever becoming threatening.

    Good Pokemon, but pretty manageable in my experience. I voted do not ban in the last 3 Azumarill votes and the current test hasn't really changed my opinion, it just made me realize I prefer using Crawdaunt to break shit.
  17. Simonds


    Jan 17, 2017
    Just wanted to point out that offensive variants of Whimsicott can also deal with the shark pretty easily if it's carrying psychic fangs as its coverage move. Hard switch Whimsi on the protect and it can take any attack from M-Sharpedo, even after stealth rocks OR 2 layers of spikes (psychic fangs has something like a ~5% chance to OHKO with 3 layers of spikes after leftovers recovery). Meanwhile, moonblast/energy ball are guaranteed OHKOs and giga drain is a guaranteed OHKO with stealth rocks (leaving your Whimsicott at about 60% health). The prankster nerf is unfortunate since you can't lock them into protect or paralyze them with stun spore but Whimsi still manages. Whimsi is also a lot easier to keep at full health throughout a game than a pokemon like Clef. Also, lastly, Whimsi naturally outspeeds M-Sharpedo so if they've lost their speed boosts then Whimsi is a guaranteed hard check.

    Nice post. In my opinion it's huge power in combination with bulk and strong priority that makes Azu so difficult to check. Crawdaunt is the only other pokemon on that list that has access to priority and Azu is just so much more bulky. For example:

    252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 324-384 (89 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raikou: 339-399 (105.6 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    248 Atk Decidueye Leaf Blade vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 308-366 (84.6 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Decidueye: 339-400 (113.3 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    The fact that Azu is favored to live super effective STAB attacks from considerable offensive threats in the tier and can OHKO back with a 90% accurate neutral STAB attack is kind of crazy.

    I think I agree with the overall premise of your post, but I think you might be underselling the importance of huge power + bulk + priority. The potential for set-up and the typing are just cherries on the cake.
  18. Eyan

    Eyan the great one with wings of steel
    is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator

    Apr 11, 2014
    Re: Azumarill since I'm actually voting this time. (a lot of this probably sounds rehashed but bear with me since I took my time with this...)

    I've been using it as much as possible, and at the end of the day, I think Azumarill is really good and hits very hard, while also possessing priority, but I definitely don't feel as though it's overwhelmingly so. Jolly Crawdaunt hits harder than Adamant Azumarill, for example. Another point that people tend to bring up is Azumarill's typing + good bulk, which is fair, but it's slow as hell, which eats into its bulk when it continuously gets pressured, especially if you're even switching it into hits in the first place.

    Choice Band feels like the best set by far since the immediate and consistent boost in power is invaluable. I've been running 216 Speed on mine for Conkeldurr since my team was ridiculously weak to it, but you could run enough for Alomomola and leave it at that (or max Speed if you think Milotic is relevant enough lol). It usually comes in against bulkier teams by virtue of its typing, slow pivoting from U-turn / Volt Switch or some smart double switching and proceeds to get a kill and a half. After that, its Choice-locked state is pretty exploitable and it's easily forced out for most teams. I'll admit that switching into it is kinda dumb with that kind of power, though, but it's not as insane as people seem to make it out to be. A lot of its switch-in opportunities are largely based on prediction games on what the foe intends to use in order to not either get severely weakened or even 2HKOed. Azumarill also doesn't really have that much of a chance to shine against both stall and faster offensive teams. Stall teams packing Amoonguss already pretty much dents Azumarill's use there. Granted, it's still able to pressure things decently well such as Alomomola, which can't comfortably switch in, but Amoonguss takes 50% from banded Knock Off, pivots into Clefable, then proceeds to switch into Azumarill every single time. Against faster offensive teams, it can come in on resisted hits maybe 1-2 times to fire off a powerful attack, but for the most part in my experience, it doesn't have room to click anything but Aqua Jet, which doesn't even OHKO something like Gengar after Stealth Rock. I tend to not even use Azumarill in those situations outside of revenge killing. Might be just my own teambuilding there, but yeah. I will say that Choice Band Azumarill decimates a lot of ladder teams, though, but a lot of ladder teams tend to be the type of bulky offense that it loves to face.

    As for Belly Drum, using it has felt a little underwhelming. It's not a bad set per se, since you can find setup opportunities with its typing (mainly taking advantage of Choice-locked Pokemon imo), but I hardly found myself actually sweeping with it. Because it's slow and relies on Aqua Jet, in this meta, there are still a tonne of checks to it, and it's hard to make full use of it against any fairly competent player. I suppose you could just try to force them into their Water-resistant Pokemon early, and get rid of said checks, but 9/10 times I found myself in a better position had I just been Choice Band or even some other setup sweeper. Without setting up, the immediate power difference is huge compared to Choice Band, and its impact on the game itself really isn't that much, since you can't even properly break through common bulky offensive Pokemon that don't invest a whole lot in bulk. Belly Drum Azumarill also does nothing against stall considering a Quagisre / Unaware Clefable renders this one-time use set useless.

    I know a lot of people have cited the mind game of guessing which set Azumarill is to be a big factor, but I personally haven't found it to be that big of a deal. I never had to adjust my playing that much based on that mentality and consideration. I realise that I'm probably making Azumarill sound worse than it is, but trust me, I know it's fucking good. Overall, I just haven't seen anything that spells out Azumarill as being broken, though, so I'm likely to be voting to unban it.

    I'm not really gonna have any dispute about its power, since it's already been elaborated in multiple posts. As for its bulk, I agree it's good, but it definitely seems a lot better on paper than it is in practice, and this is mainly due to its low Speed. I explained it above; the basic premise is that unless you're using Azumarill as your Raikou check, when you talk about switch-in opportunities as compared to Crawdaunt, you're essentially taking 2 hits unless it's into a Dragon-type move (or at least 1 in free switch-ins) before being able to retaliate against anything but walls, so the chip damage needed in your calcs isn't that big, esp with the consideration of Stealth Rock. Azumarill is a pain to switch into, but it's really not that difficult to check with even just strong neutral hits.
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2017
  19. TSR

    TSR everyone's watching!
    is a Tiering Contributor

    May 14, 2015
    All right, time for me to talk about Azu. Since I'll be voting on this I feel it's pretty important for me to speak out the entirety of my opinion, even if what I am saying is rehashing various things that have been already said.

    Allow me to preface this by saying I have no doubt that Azu would be a great Pokemon in the UU environment. That said, I believe the strong pro-ban arguers are giving treatment akin to what Crawdaunt got back during its suspect in ORAS, something I myself was guilty of for that period and even a few months after its inclusion to UU. As crazy it may sound to some, this last week of getting experience with Azu, my overall viewpoint of "insanely powerful wallbreaker with incredible bulk and typing", is something I can safely say was over-hyping it a bit.

    Now as many reading this post know, me playing on ladder typically isn't the highest level gameplay for, reasons... However, many reports from others, in addition to mine, have found Azumarill just underwhelming in practice. Now when I say underwhelming, keep in mind its performance has been sub-par compared to the fear of Azumarill becoming an absolutely unstoppable wallbreaker. It's certainly far from a bad Pokemon. Most games in which I've used Azumarill come down to me playing well to get Azumarill in, whether on double switches, sacks, etc etc. The prediction games usually start there, and thanks to Azu's natural bulk and good offensive typing, it'll usually be able to squeeze out one or two kills before being incapacitated and too weak to take a hit and retaliate, maybe revenge kill something late game with Aqua Jet in a dire situation. In practice the 100 / 80 / 80 bulk and Water / Fairy typing simply doesn't go all too far when you're investing most, if not all, of your EVs into Attack and Speed. Even with 252 Speed and Jolly, the speed tier is still pretty damn bad, and Azumarill usually takes a heavy hit before being able to get an attack off. Chances are it won't realistically get to do that twice without a Healing Wish user to support it. This also makes for my biggest complaint when using Azu, you have this fairly bulky Pokemon with amazing offensive and defensive typing, yet you typically have to stack together multiple things to cover what Azu should be able to cover defensively, but fails in practice. This thing really doesn't get as many switch in opportunities as it would like without taking a sizable chunk of damage. Taking a chunk of damage without retaliating is among Azumarill's worst nightmares, and its not gonna get in safely unless you play fairly well or lose a mon to do so.

    From a purely defensive standpoint, Belly Drum Azumarill seems like on of the most constrictive forces in the meta, requiring that you run something that can take a +6 Aqua Jet and revenge kill it and keep it healthy at all times. Looking at the current meta, a lot of these Pokemon that can fill such a role are incredibly commonplace. Latias, Volcanion, Celebi, hell even Primarina and Bewear can work if you keep them healthy enough. Stall typically has Unaware Quagsire AND Clefable as well. Belly Drum Azu is by no means bad, but it requires very specific conditions to sweep from game to game, and as you might see from the other posts, I'm not the only one who has experienced this dilemma. Choice Band is far and away the more consistent set from my experience, as the immediate power it brings to the table is something that you'd prefer 9/10 times since Azu isn't very good at taking hits itself. There are more than enough ways to deal with BD Azu, and Azumarill without any sort of boost is even more disappointing. A couple posts above mine you can see that Hikari posted some relevant calcs, showing that Azumarill barely stands among the hardest hitters in the current meta. I will say, however, that all of the Pokemon Hikari listed have more definite counters compared to Azumarill, which does make Azumarill a little harder to deal with defensively with Pokemon not named Amoonguss (don't use Ice Punch), most teams have multiple ways to pressure it offensively and its far from the killing machine I thought it would be at the beginning of this suspect.

    Again, Azumarill is far from a bad mon, and I actually feel like it's a lot better than this post makes it out to be. However, I needed to stress its flaws to get my point across. Its good for sure, and no one is arguing about how strong it is. I've found that myself or my (competent) opponents have found it quite manageable in every experience so far. I had a really bad time with this thing in beta, which I believe gave me the disposition of it being broken right from the start. Testing it out has given me a complete 180 on this opinion, as I can't see anything about it that is overly unhealthy, and I'll likely be voting to unban it.
    Threw, 1Surgeon, Moutemoute and 20 others like this.
  20. ProfessorMasterChief


    Dec 28, 2015
    So, I've finally had some time to play some damn ladder matches, and after using Band Azumarill for about two hours, it didn't feel as broken as I thought it would be. It's really tough to switch into, sure, and it has solid bulk combined with an excellent typing, but I found that even with these benefits, its speed just really let me down. Even bulkier teams will probably have multiple things that have higher speed, and can kill Azu with little prior damage. This isn't really helped by the fact that hazards mean that Azumarill will be worn down fast, so as Eyan pointed out, getting the necessary chip to put it in range of being revenge killed is honestly not that hard. I usually only got one kill at most with this thing, because unlike Victini and Raptor, its speed really let it down.

    Priority is cool, sure, but Azu is hardly the only strong priority user in the tier where Scizor, Bisharp, Absol, and even Crawdaunt are all viable choices for a team, so if your offensive team gets boned by aqua jet, it won't just lose to Azumarill. Does Azumarill usually get a kill if played well, sure. But that's the case with pretty much any wall breaker that has ever existed. Hydreigon, Volcanion, Gengar, hell even offensive Starmie, but none of those things are broken because they have counter play, and I fail to see how Azumarill is any different when any time Band doesn't click Aqua Jet, it has to switch out so often out of many offensive threats that can come in, and even slower, more bulky mons will probably be able to move first, I mean Primarina and Bewar are hardly spee demons, and yet they get the drop on Jolly Azumarill without even having to use positive speed natures. This means it not only has to take a hit if it hard switches into an attack, because otherwise it will be after Volt Switch/U-Turn, a sack, or a well timed double, but it also has to take hazards and then has to take another hit unless it uses aqua jet, which isn't hard to take advantage of when UU has many good Water resists that can use aqua jet to set up or fire back and hit Azu hard.

    Even its resistances can't be used as well as you would like them to. Knock off neuters band's power, not to mention Bisharp can smack Azumarill wth Iron Head, Krookodile smacks it with Earthquake, and Hydreigon can 2hko with flash cannon after rocks if life orb or specs. Dragon types can still be tough for Azu, Latias hits hard with Psyshock, and as I mentioned Hydra can use Flash Cannon. Fire Types are not really common in UU, and most users of HP Fire include things like Celebi and Starmie, which Azumarill does not want to switch into, and Volcanion can burn or even use sludge bomb, and Infernape and use Gunk Shot, Thunderpunch, or even U-Turn on the Azu switch.

    I haven't used Belly Drum yet, but looking at the viability rankings thread, there are plenty of water resists in the A rankings, so putting one on a team is hardly a difficult thing to do. But as I said, I haven't really used Belly Drum, so look at the other posts to see how it fares. Now I was using offense on the ladder, but I found that although Azu was tough to switch into, I never felt like I had no options unless I let all my answers die, but that's not different from literally every other threat that has ever existed. Overall, while Azu might not have many counters, there is plenty of counterplay, so while I obviously won't be voting on it, I think Azu is fine in UU, and as such should be freed from BL.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
    Ark, mashonem, TSR and 4 others like this.
  21. DaKakz


    Dec 12, 2013
    [​IMG] +[​IMG] +[​IMG]
    I feel like people who don't think Azu is broken haven't played around with teams containing Aurora Veil + HealingWish + VoltTurn support + Z-BD Azu. It's honestly pretty stupid how suddenly stuff that is supposed to revenge +6 Azu by taking an Aqua Jet find themselves unable to KO it then dying to a play rough/knock when it's behind an aurora veil. But that's not all, the Azu player can then switch out if it's unable to fully sweep a team and later in the game just HWish to it with mons like Latias or Celebi for it to just clean late game with jet.

    I've seen and heard of teams containing three supposed checks in the form of Amoong/Tenta, Latias and TBolt Starmie losing against this strat, it's honestly ridiculous.
  22. Moutemoute


    Dec 11, 2015
    Sorry man but with Aurora Veil support and Volt-Turn core, mostly of the UU Sweepers seems broken and able to 6-0 a large majority of regular team. I'm trully not sure this kind of argument can be used to said that one Pokémon is broken or not.
  23. Hogg

    Hogg I will be king, and you, you will be queen.
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Apr 23, 2014
    I've been holding off on posting because I wanted to spend a fair bit of time testing Azu to make sure my initial impressions weren't crazy. In the meantime, Hikari and Eyan and others posted most of my thoughts. Azu is definitely really good, but it's not overwhelming. While I've found it consistently useful, I haven't found it so constraining during either teambuilding or playing that I feel like it has to go. It's a top 'mon, no doubt, but I don't think it's broken in this meta.

    And actually, the more I think about it... the more I'm not really sure that anything is broken in this current meta. There are a couple of things that hover near that point for me, but none of them cross over into broken territory. I'll just talk about a few of them here:

    Other people have talked about this, so I won't spend long here, but while Azu has a really useful defensive typing that certainly makes it more useful than Crawdaunt, its wallbreaking or sweeping prowess is hardly unprecedented. You definitely have to account for it in building, and you can't play recklessly and let your team get into AJ sweep range, but the same is true for Scizor or M-Shark or Bish, too. Its low Speed means that you don't need super hard answers, because even with its good defensive typing it's so reliant on Aqua Jet to beat anything faster. I have no doubt that if Azu stays it will remain a top threat, but frankly I don't even think it's as good as, say, Alakazam or Scizor. Voting unban on this one.

    If there's anything that I think might be banworthy, I guess I'd give it to Zam. Counter was so good for this thing, to the point where I don't think a game has gone by where Zam hasn't netted me at least one kill after coming out. It's so good against offensive teams in general. It still has all the tool it needs to screw with other archetypes as well, with Encore or Taunt or CM to punish more passive teams, but honestly, 99% of the time I'm going to be running a Sash and Counter on this thing because it's just that useful. I'm still not 100% sold that it's broken, but this is probably the closest thing to it in my books right now.

    Mega Sharpedo
    Yeah, this one is really good. Lots of people have talked about this, but Psychic Fangs was such a good boost for it. But broken? I dunno, man. It's kind of a delicate balancing act at this point, but while Shark is certainly one of the biggest threats, and one of the first things I think about when building a team, I still feel like UU has the tools to reliably build around it. The meta is bulkier in general than last gen, and pre-mega Shark is just so comparatively weak, so there's a ton of pressure to mega this thing as soon as possible. But then, on the flipside, there are a whole list of things you have to weaken or remove before you can safely mega, leaving Shark in a really awkward place during much of the early- and mid-game. For my money this is the best cleaner in the meta right now, but I certainly would not vote ban on it today. That said, if things like Azumarill and Zam and Cobalion ever leave the tier, you may want to ask me again...

    Clefable is probably my most used 'mon at the moment (although Zam is starting to give it a run for its money), and if it's not the best 'mon in UU right now, it's definitely at least close to it. Whether I'm building balance or semistall or balls out HO, there's almost always a place for this thing. It also has tools to break through a lot of its supposed counters. By any sane definition I feel like this thing should be broken... and yet in practice, it just doesn't feel like it is. I love Clef, but I really can't think of a game I've played or watched where I thought "Damn, Clefable is really just too much." It reminds me a lot of Suicune in ORAS - a really low risk, high reward 'mon that is easy to slap onto teams and win games with, and yet not actually a negative presence in the tier. It's hard to explain, but I just can't justify banning this thing right now.

    Overall I just really like the current state of UU, and I'm excited to see it progress further.
    obii, Bengsu, mashonem and 21 others like this.
  24. dodmen

    dodmen Ain't no tuition for havin' no ambition
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Global Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    UU Leader

    Jan 12, 2014
    Voting for Azumarill is complete. Azumarill remains banned with only 7 "unban" votes out of the 8/12 supermajority necessary to free it.

    Additionally, we have done another round of voting on what's currently in UU. Nominations were: Alakazam, Clefable, and Sharpedonite.

    Of these Pokemon, Alakazam has been banned by a 7/12 majority. Clefable and Sharpedonite remain in the tier.
    Alakazam reasoning (open)
    Alakazam has always been a massive threat to offense, but its newly acquired move in Counter (in combination with Magic Guard) has pushed it over the edge. With Counter, Alakazam can not only pick up a nearly guaranteed kill against common offensive Pokemon like Scizor and Zygarde-10%, but can also remove some defensive Pokemon such as Hippowdon and Knock Off Mew, all without really having to sacrifice a coverage move. With Focus Sash being able to heavily threaten offensive teams and Life Orb able to threaten many balance teams, Alakazam has been banned in a close vote.
    Votes (open)

    With that said, Alakazam will be our next suspect. Aquadext will be stepping in for Christo on full council from now on, and rotating council for this test will be announced soon.

    The Immortal, please remove Azumarill from the UU ladder. Thanks!

    Please continue posting your thoughts on Alakazam and the general metagame!
  25. Nightingales


    Dec 6, 2014
    So. zam.

    Last gen it was fucking annoying. Pursuit got put on everything to deal with it and you needed priority or at least two things that could outrun it or outlive it to not get destroyed. Now? I see it, I get slightly annoyed, but compared to the new threats in the tier it doesn't seem especially scary anymore. Is it dangerous? Hell yeah. But is it game-breaking? Not really, not to me.

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