Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 7 - Fly Me to the Moon [ Council announcement Post #2 ]

[njnp]

This is not and never has been the point of a suspect. The suspect is meant to determine if the subject is broken or not, not if the metagame is better with or without a Pokemon.

I'm aware of the point of a suspect. I did not suggest that Roaring Moon doesn't warrant a suspect. The Roaring Moon suspect however is not helping us solve in my opinion one of the issues that has plagued the tier which is hazard control. Removing something like Gliscor from the tier and focusing on hazard control would allow mons like Lando-T and Bulky Garchomp to be more viable countermeasures. It would allow popular Pokemon Pre DLC like Banded Dragonite to aid in checking this Pokemon.

In regards to the theory-mon claim, it's simply my opinion, just as you have the opinion that it is broken and too much for the tier.

We chose to focus our attention on Ursaluna-Bloodmoon even with initial low ratings from the public. Ninetales-A had a higher rating from the public then BloodMoon but we didn't focus our attention on Veil being problematic, we focused on what we felt was too much for the tier, and rightfully so that was Blood Moon. I'm hoping soon, especially with the growing support for Gliscor from qualified users (3.4/5 - Second highest next to Roaring Moon) we can focus on the pressing issue of hazards that has been more obscene for this tier much longer than Roaring Moon.

 

[Finchinator]

The Roaring Moon suspect however is not helping us solve in my opinion one of the issues that has plagued the tier which is hazard control.

This is entirely true and I cannot even refute this even if I wanted to. Something needs to be done beyond this suspect to address that, and I think many people are starting to agree that something pertains to Gliscor.

 

[Vert]

regarding the metagame, the amount of cheese from veil to webs to grassy terrain to stored power strategies is at an all-time high. an influx in these styles is usually a sign of unbalanced defensive shit being in the metagame as you can see during certain phases of ORAS & SM. roaring moon is one of the least problematic presences in SV OU and i don't find this 'mon anywhere close to broken. sylveon used calm mind's post was well-written so just gonna expand on their points:

roaring moon needs to drop utility for coverage to beat the most common 'mon in the tier, kingambit. priority continues to become more wide-spread with each rendition of the metagame. some solid new ones i've seen balance incorporating are weavile and specs vacuum wave iron valiant. static / flame body can also give fat a solid out. roaring moon is only seen on hyper offense and sun, 2 telegraphed styles. the booster sets have 1 opportunity to come in and do what it wants to do unlike other suspects such as kingambit, walking wake, and zamazenta which could freely enter and exit the field. dondozo is a solid answer and i'd argue it's good it has to lose its boots because it means the fat user has to play more pro-actively around hazards. rocky helmet corviknight and most defensive ground-types can force roaring moon to trade or tera-flying (which has an opportunity cost) while there has been healthy metagame adaptations to it in choice scarf sneasler and sticky barb clefable.

a couple months ago i was told to cope because i thought using covert cloak gholdengo to beat garganacl was unhealthy. i'd be surprised if these same people have an issue with sticky barb clefable even though it has wider applications in crippling any booster 'mon-- iron valiant, great tusk,... very useful with any form of knock off support tbh (OLT replay). it's only an issue when we have to adapt to offensive 'mons. i haven't seen roaring moon force anything more ratchet than that dogshit itemand substitute skeledirge...

In the context of games, a timely opposing Tera or preserved priority can dispatch of it, but this involves applying pressure to an arguably unreasonable extent (and doesn’t always work if it’s Roost or paired with the right support, for example). It also oftentimes still gets a kill and Roaring Moon has pretty good special bulk to the point that it can easily get out of hand.

Within the builder, it constricts things even further as you need to keep it front of mind when factoring in your entire team’s pace and interactions rather than being able to counter it on some teams. Lazy building for it cannot even exist as there are no real slap-on counters and while we like to encourage proactive play and creative building, it’s still often a multi-Pokemon job to take it down with casualties involved.

I think this all can be true in the same universe where Roaring Moon is broken though, and that is very much the reality. This metagame has numerous issues after all. Nobody has actually listed a counter to Roaring Moon and that is not a coincidence. Let's take an example from a post in this thread.

all of these points can be said about pre-DLC roaring moon though, right? i challenge you to list 1 counter to roaring moon during pokemon home in fact. everything bar kingambit in theory gets shut down by taunt / crunch / acrobatics / dragon dance. pre-DLC roaring moon can also be a "multi-Pokemon job" to take down but the reality is it was pretty bad back then. what counter-play did roaring moon have during pokemon home that is suddenly invalidated now that it has knock off? corviknight can't get another round of rocky helmet chip? zapdos can't preserve its boots when fishing for static? unaware users have to play pro-actively around hazards? i believe you're overreacting because knock off didn't fix any of its major flaws, mainly its vulnerability to priority and how it rarely nabs set-up oppurtunities unscathed.

knock off can make an already S-rank threat like kingambit ubers but it will not make roaring moon which was borderline C-rank during pokemon home broken. i will be voting do not ban.

 

[Finchinator]

all of these points can be said about pre-DLC roaring moon though, right? i challenge you to list 1 counter to roaring moon during pokemon home in fact. everything bar kingambit in theory gets shut down by taunt / crunch / acrobatics / dragon dance. pre-DLC roaring moon can also be a "multi-Pokemon job" to take down but this thing was borderline C-rank back then. what counter-play did roaring moon have pre-DLC that is suddenly invalidated now that it has knock off? corviknight can't get another round of rocky helmet chip? zapdos can't preserve its boots when fishing for static? unaware users have to play pro-actively around hazards? i believe you're overreacting because roaring moon suffers from the same flaws as it did pre-DLC, mainly its vulnerability to priority and how it rarely can nab set-up oppurtunities unscathed.

I think there actually are some genuine differences though. The dynamic surrounding viable and available counterplay then relative to now is quite different. There is a lot of addition by subtraction here. Let me explain some examples.

Corviknight is less easy to use right now for a few reasons; I know personally I used it here and there earlier this year, but have not found much reason to use it since DLC dropped. Zapdos and Gliscor synergize poorly with it, giving Corviknight spots on fewer and fewer balance teams.

Zapdos is running faster variants more commonly than ever with offensive sets being better into Gliscor and other Pokemon that did not exist earlier this year like Samurott-H, Manaphy, and Heatran being worthy of accounting for on some builds. Zapdos without a Bold nature is not able to withstand a +1 Knock Off from an attack Booster Energy Roaring Moon, which shifts this dynamic.

Garganacl hardly exists and while it could almost guarantee a Salt Cure and some shenaigans into Roaring Moon previously, it is not around to do that close to as often. It went from being an A+ tier Pokemon to not being OU by usage. This was also a method of discouraging it from clicking Tera Flying, which is now more free aside from Kingambit Sucker Punch.

Speaking of Kingambit, you see it running max speed with Low Kick a lot now while it used to run bulkier sets often. Bulkier sets with a neutral Tera like Fairy or Dark are able to always live Tera Acrobatics at +1, but offensive variants do not have this same luxury, always dying if SR is up. This creates an awkward dynamic surrounding Tera timing for both, Brick Break prospects, Roost lines, and so on that did not exist when bulkier Kingambit was frequented.

If we want to go further, Ice Shard Baxcalibur was common back then and throughout the generation, but it is now banned. Iron Hands existed sporadically, especially on offenses, and was good to 1v1 Roaring Moon, but now ceases to exist. Landorus-T was fairly common in the pre-DLC metagame once it came out, even using Rocky Helmet and moves that threaten Roaring Moon, but now is on the verge of falling to UU.

Want to take it in the other direction? Teammates to Roaring Moon that make it more practical/convenient are at an all-time high. We see more hyper offense than ever, which it fits onto, and more things like Screens/Veil or even Sticky Webs that can benefit it. Wellspring's presence is generally beneficial for Roaring Moon, which did not exist previously, and Grassy Terrain can be helpful to Roaring Moon as both a teammate and opponent in a sense, but we did not see much of this prior.

I think Roaring Moon gaining Knock Off was a nice addition to it, but I also think this metagame has a perfect storm of conditions to it while the prior metagame did not.

 

[ayevon]

It's hard to argue Roaring Moon is broken when the litmus test we've decided to use Kingambit not being broken, and I think for the most part Kingambit is still a much stronger mon in general than Roaring Moon. However, Finch did make some really good points re: the meta being better than ever for Moon. Knock definitely isn't what's breaking it, but definitely a nice buff for HO teams that need to wear down Zapdos, Skeledirge etc. Also makes your first attack sans tera at least 1.2x stronger, which isn't insignificant. Synergizes well with webs and taunt sets can invalidate a lot of counterplay on bulky teams. Like Vert said though, it hasn't been able to solve any of the issues that plagued it in a vacuum before. Still pretty reliant on tera, even if it's not to the same degree as it was before, and Gambit still can stop a depressing number of its sweeps. It really only gets one good shot per game at sweeping as I think it's still heavily reliant on the booster attack raise to break and sweep, but it definitely has easier times doing that because mons that would've forced it out previously like Bax are banned, and defensive mons it had trouble staying in on like Garg and Dondozo have pretty low viability at the moment.

I think overall the meta is in a bit of conundrum right now as nothing is too seriously broken but there's a lot of unfortunate metagame developments that are mainly driven by small group of mons exacerbating each other without one obviously being broken. Hazards are a big one but I think it's kinda cringe to think that getting rid of Gliscor will significantly alleviate that, when there's plenty of other great spikers who don't see use simply bc gliscor is better at it (all Ogerpons, Ting Lu, Garchomp, Meow, Clodsire). Gliscor lowering Tusks viability definitely contributes to the hazard problem as well but Tusk declining in viability was always inevitable as more mons get released, and it's interactions with Gholdengo and Zapdos were never conducive to a healthy metagame anyways. A Gliscor ban also leaves the webs issue untouched which is also a big metagame factor funneling everyone towards bootspam. This is all to say the biggest issue is lack of removal options, and while we unfortunately cannot magically give more mons removal, the addition of even a couple viable defoggers like Corvknight, Mandibuzz, Scizor, and levitate Weezing-G via a Gholdengo ban would push the metagame a lot further towards a healthier place than simply banning the best spiker.

Like I said, it's hard to say anything is broken right now under the idea that Kingambit isn't, but I could definitely see a Roaring Moon ban being beneficial to the metagame even if it isn't broken. I don't think that's bad reasoning for someone to use on any suspect (but it's also good for the council to not have that mentality, if that makes sense), but I'll probably be abstaining from this one.

Corviknight is good btw you infinitely switch into and slowturn out of Gliscor to a water/ice breaker ur welcome

Also Weavile is very good for that role and can also revenge moon pre and post tera and it's knocker that beats gliscor which is pretty epic right now, super underrated and like the only person to use it so far in SPL is the guy who stole my ladder team

 

[Mr Half Said]

Ok, this is getting bloody ridiculous, there's this stupid pattern I'm seeing for sv ou and it's that EVERY GOD DAMN SET UP SWEEPER (that isn't named dragonite) is getting banned. It just feels like making a mole out of a mountain hill when there are an obscene amount of counter play in the meta, for some examples off the top of my head: the abundance of unaware Pokémon, red card, poison touch sneasler, KINGAMBIT MERLY EXISTING and tera fairy. Honestly there are more concerning Pokémon right now like kingambit that probably should be the one being suspected

 

[VicBossMG]

Ok, this is getting bloody ridiculous, there's this stupid pattern I'm seeing for sv ou and it's that EVERY GOD DAMN SET UP SWEEPER (that isn't named dragonite) is getting banned. It just feels like making a mole out of a mountain hill when there are an obscene amount of counter play in the meta, for some examples off the top of my head: the abundance of unaware Pokémon, red card, poison touch sneasler, KINGAMBIT MERLY EXISTING and tera fairy. Honestly there are more concerning Pokémon right now like kingambit that probably should be the one being suspected

the suspect is based off the survey and the player base gave moon a 3.7 the highest in the survey so thus a suspect was announced for him.

 

[camille2010]

Rugit-Lune ne doit pas être BANNI!!!

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

the suspect is based off the survey and the player base gave moon a 3.7 the highest in the survey so thus a suspect was announced for him.

wait, where were the results posted? i didn't see them

anyway, i've come to make an announcement give my thoughts on roaring moon. i think there are other things in the tier that are better suspect candidates and should have been tested before moon, but i do agree that it's banworthy, and any suspect of a problematic mon is a step in the right direction so i'll take it. from what i've found it just really doesn't have actual consistent answers besides priority, and if it keeps itself healthy it doesn't even lose to that unless you stack priority mons. like, i guess dondozo works sometimes, but even that matchup can be shaky. it's yet another mon with the combination of immediate breaking power, single-turn setup potential, recovery for no reason, and the potential to abuse sun. this is the fourth one of these we've had this gen (volc, firepon, bloodmoon) and i for one am tired of them

 

[VicBossMG]

wait, where were the results posted? i didn't see them

anyway, i've come to make an announcement give my thoughts on roaring moon. i think there are other things in the tier that are better suspect candidates and should have been tested before moon, but i do agree that it's banworthy, and any suspect of a problematic mon is a step in the right direction so i'll take it. from what i've found it just really doesn't have actual consistent answers besides priority, and if it keeps itself healthy it doesn't even lose to that unless you stack priority mons. like, i guess dondozo works sometimes, but even that matchup can be shaky. it's yet another mon with the combination of immediate breaking power, single-turn setup potential, recovery for no reason, and the potential to abuse sun. this is the fourth one of these we've had this gen (volc, firepon, bloodmoon) and i for one am tired of them

Was leaked by some ppl in ou chat and from what njnp said gliscor was 3.4/5 behind moon so it’s safe to say he was the highest lol

 

[ianlazerbeem]

wait, where were the results posted? i didn't see them

anyway, i've come to make an announcement give my thoughts on roaring moon. i think there are other things in the tier that are better suspect candidates and should have been tested before moon, but i do agree that it's banworthy, and any suspect of a problematic mon is a step in the right direction so i'll take it. from what i've found it just really doesn't have actual consistent answers besides priority, and if it keeps itself healthy it doesn't even lose to that unless you stack priority mons. like, i guess dondozo works sometimes, but even that matchup can be shaky. it's yet another mon with the combination of immediate breaking power, single-turn setup potential, recovery for no reason, and the potential to abuse sun. this is the fourth one of these we've had this gen (volc, firepon, bloodmoon) and i for one am tired of them

I agree, even though Moon isn't #1 on my list either, I don't think it's a positive presence and I'm not going to reject progress because it's not the particular progress I want to see most right now.

Dondozo is an extremely fake Moon check, unaware carries but it can only attack on one Acro/Knock turn before having to Rest, and from there you have the 1/3 chance to call the right move to make progress and can't rest more than once unless moon gets two very low rolls in a row, you also trade your boots

 

[NidoTheKing]

I doubt that this is a deciding factor, but I feel it should be mentioned.


Another strength of Roaring Moon isn't just its oppressive offensive capabilities, but its shockingly fantastic defensive utility as a pivot.

Roaring Moon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy / Steel / Water
EVs: 128 HP / 116 Atk / 12 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- U-Turn
- Roost
- Earthquake / Brick Break / Tera Blast / Taunt

Roaring Moon's stats and movepool are perfect to be used as an aggressive pivot, fitting in Knock Off, U-Turn, Roost and your choice of coverage or Taunt while equipping Heavy-Duty Boots (or sometimes Assault Vest if you want) to keep switching in and harassing the opponent with constant pressure of fast and strong Knock Offs and consistent U-Turn pivoting. Dark/Dragon has its downsides as a defensive typing, but offers great resistances to Ghost, Water, Electric, Grass, Fire and Dark, letting it find enough good opportunities to switch in and retake momentum for itself. Regardless, Roaring Moon can make great use of Terastalizing to change its type matchups and even reverse situations with a surprise Tera Blast.

Heavy-Duty Boots is what allows Roaring Moon to keep switching in through hazards, and lets it act as a longer-lasting threat than the immediacy of Booster Energy. It's possible to switch the moveset around to run Assault Vest, however that is harder to sustain due to losing out on recovery. The Attack EVs are just enough to OHKO uninvested Gholdengo at full health with Knock Off, while its Speed is maxed out to speed tie against Cinderace or opposing Roaring Moon, outrun other potential threats like Iron Valiant, and gain Speed while Sun is active, however it can be reassigned to bulk if you feel it is unnecessary. Speaking of bulk, the bulk provided sets Roaring Moon's Hp to 383, taking less overall hazard damage if Heavy-Duty Boots gets knocked off, and allows it to survive an opposing Roaring Moon's Protosynthesis Tera Flying Acrobatics at full health.

The Calcs in Question

116 Atk Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gholdengo: 318-374 (100.9 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 128 HP / 12 Def Roaring Moon: 321-378 (83.8 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Is this set the reason why Roaring Moon is being suspected? No, but we can't just act like the option for it doesn't exist or have any merit to being used. This at least deserves a mention.

 

[ssz7ytreal]

Ok, this is getting bloody ridiculous, there's this stupid pattern I'm seeing for sv ou and it's that EVERY GOD DAMN SET UP SWEEPER (that isn't named dragonite) is getting banned. It just feels like making a mole out of a mountain hill when there are an obscene amount of counter play in the meta, for some examples off the top of my head: the abundance of unaware Pokémon, red card, poison touch sneasler, KINGAMBIT MERLY EXISTING and tera fairy. Honestly there are more concerning Pokémon right now like kingambit that probably should be the one being suspected

I agree
I do think there is a problem involving Roaring Moon. But I think the real cause of this problem is Booster Energy. If we ban Roaring Moon, we will have the same problem again, but with iron valiant. I love Kingambit, it is one of my favorite pokemon, but if anything should be banned, it's Kingambit. And it is ridiculous that every setup sweeper gets banned. Baxcaliber was a problem, but volcorona getting banned is going too far. Imo. So for this reason, I am voting, do not ban.

 

[Ehmcee]

I agree
I do think there is a problem involving Roaring Moon. But I think the real cause of this problem is Booster Energy. If we ban Roaring Moon, we will have the same problem again, but with iron valiant. I love Kingambit, it is one of my favorite pokemon, but if anything should be banned, it's Kingambit. And it is ridiculous that every setup sweeper gets banned. Baxcaliber was a problem, but volcorona getting banned is going too far. Imo. So for this reason, I am voting, do not ban.

Booster Energy's viability is entirely dependant on the stats of the pokemon it's from, in no way is Booster Energy broken seldom.
Your assumption on Iron Valiant being broken even if true isn't something that should impact you not voting ban on Roaring Moon.

Yes on average setup sweepers are the ones that get banned, this is simply due to being the pokemon with the least consistent answers.

 

[ssz7ytreal]

Booster Energy's viability is entirely dependant on the stats of the pokemon it's from, in no way is Booster Energy broken seldom.
Your assumption on Iron Valiant being broken even if true isn't something that should impact you not voting ban on Roaring Moon.

Yes on average setup sweepers are the ones that get banned, this is simply due to being the pokemon with the least consistent answers.

I understand your point
But I respectfully disagree.
As for setup sweepers getting banned. unaware. Haze. Prioity moves. Roar,whirlwind, and clearsmog exist.
so I will still be voting a strong
do not ban

 

[Ehmcee]

I understand your point
But I respectfully disagree.
As for setup sweepers getting banned. unaware. Haze. Prioity moves. Roar,whirlwind, and clearsmog exist.
so I will still be voting a strong
do not ban

5 of those options require you to live the move in question, and even if you do live it you will be at extremely low HP and vulnerable to getting picked off (for these more broken setup sweepers).

Priority is obviously dependant on typing

Unaware is Dondozo, that's it, unless you're running Unaware Clef which is only viable on stall archetypes.

 

[Moyashi]

But I respectfully disagree.

With what? They're on the mark. Booster energy is only as potent as what's abusing it, and only a small handful of mins use it to broken effect, and all of them have multiple potent sets.

Prioity moves. Roar,whirlwind, and clearsmog exist.
so I will still be voting a strong

Priority depends on typing and is not as reliable as it should be. The only relevant priority users are kingambit and Dragonite, and the former loses to brick break roaring moon. Whirlwind is on ting lu only, which is tasked with handling so much and thus can easily be overwhelmed. Plus is weak to taunt variants. Roar doesn't really exist except in super specific cases.

Clear smog has one viable user which gets destroyed by Roaring Moon. And Unaware is much less common these days and still not guaranteed.

 

[astroshagger]

Look I'll be the first to say I'm not the best battler on this site nor the most knowledgeable.

But suspecting Roaring Moon just feels like the wrong choice. Hazards are out of control and banning Moon doesn't seem like the right idea atm especially with bullshit like gambit and gliscor running around. The tier just has so many issues in general especially on the defensive side and I think Roaring Moon's current performance is indicative of larger metagame issues that need to be addressed first.

 

[shawk*+:)]

I’ll be honest, I feel like moon getting suspected was inevitable

• Roaring Moon has been one of the best setup sweepers sense day one. It could mix and match its sets to beat a wide variety of teams & playstyles efficiently. Overall, Moon was strong, but not broken.

• Come DLC 1 and everything changed. After venturing into and shredding UU, Moon decided to go for blood and remind the playerbase why it’s so strong. It got a new partner in the form of the returning Gliscor while making use of old ones like Gholdengo. However, this wasn’t the same OU anymore. Most notably, people were starting to notice how permanent spikes & good spikes were & Bax got banned.

• With the new focus onto abusing entry hazards along with a new slot for a sweeper open for the taking, Moon became better than ever. Older checks like Dondozo & Zamazenta don’t check it as effectively anymore, as it received a new toy in the form of STAB Knock Off.

• Dozo, Zama, and many other walls effectively become way less sturdy with the removal of their boots & lefties. Which in return can cause Moon & their teammates to become way more threatening. The removal of boots also force chip with entry hazards that were always backed up by gholdengo.

• Moon can also abuse tera, although it doesn’t have to. It already can be quite difficult to deal with when accounting for: the threatening dragon dance set, annoying stall-breaker set, and the ludicrous breaking power of the choice band set.

• Overall, while many people may argue that “Moon is fine to deal with.” In a metagame where hazards are turning most (if not all) pokemon into one-hit-ko machines, in combination with recent buffs, I believe that Roaring Moon is indeed problematic & should get banned.

 

[ssz7ytreal]

With what? They're on the mark. Booster energy is only as potent as what's abusing it, and only a small handful of mins use it to broken effect, and all of them have multiple potent sets.



Priority depends on typing and is not as reliable as it should be. The only relevant priority users are kingambit and Dragonite, and the former loses to brick break roaring moon. Whirlwind is on ting lu only, which is tasked with handling so much and thus can easily be overwhelmed. Plus is weak to taunt variants. Roar doesn't really exist except in super specific cases.

Clear smog has one viable user which gets destroyed by Roaring Moon. And Unaware is much less common these days and still not guaranteed.

Kingambit is more of a problem than Roaring Moon.
Kingambit is the one we need to ban actually and unaware is actually more common than it has ever been, and multiple very common OU pokemon can have it. Clefable and dondozo are the two that come to mind. Booster Energy is basically a choice item without downsides. It is by far, a problem

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

Kingambit is more of a problem than Roaring Moon.
Kingambit is the one we need to ban actually and unaware is actually more common than it has ever been, and multiple very common OU pokemon can have it. Clefable and dondozo are the two that come to mind. Booster Energy is basically a choice item without downsides. It is by far, a problem

The issue with the Booster argument is that to successfully argue that it is broken, it has to be broken on every mon that can use it, similar to moves and abilities. That’s why, despite every other quiver dancer being banned from PU or used in a higher tier, because Masquerain is not broken in PU, quiver dance is not considered the problem and those mons banned with it also just have the right set of tools to be broken with it. Sure, booster can be PART of why Moon is broken (and there’s argument for Val and Moth too), but there’s more than just those 3 mons that can use it that just don’t have the same level of success. Brute Bonnet is NUBL, Iron Thorns, iirc, is RU. Moon just has the particular set of tools, along side booster, that may push it over the edge.

You can also disagree as much as you want about what is being suspected and demand a gambit suspect, but at the end of the day, we are voting for Moon, not gambit. Yes, if you get reqs, you can vote however you want. But it has been made pretty clear that a vote decision should be made based on the current meta, not a theorymoned future meta. Voting no while banking on a future booster suspect and/or gambit suspect may leave you even more disappointed if/when those suspects don’t happen. My guess is council is going to approach the hazard problem next, so I could see gambit’s next suspect being pushed back a lot, and as illustrated above, I’m not expecting a booster suspect. I could also be wrong though, and council could go in a different direction.

TLDR: vote for the present, not for what you think will happen tomorrow. Also, booster ain’t broken.

 

[Vyt]

Going to give short and brief thoughts as this isn't very complex to me.

The tier in my opinion will not get better with the removal of Roaring Moon. I have not found it to be too much for the tier or the main problem with the tier. The main problem with the tier currently is Hazard Control. Hopefully, once this is done we can turn our attention to the leader in this issue Gliscor, and the thing that has been a pillar in this problem Gholdengo. We need to focus more attention on the defensive woes of this tier rather then the offensive threats. If I'm able to find time to get reqs I will vote no ban.

FINALLY someone is saying it because jfc this tier has been absolutely miserable because of how poor hazard control has been. If anything this gen has proven to me that Gamefreak does not care about a singles meta at all. Not only did they introduced an overdone pokemon like Gholdengo that folks refuse to believe is toxic, and they also added Glimmora with an Ability that sets toxic spikes. Then on top of they remove Defog from some pokemon, introduce two Pokemon in DLC that have DAMAGING moves that sets hazards, and reintroduce Glidcor. It is straight up miserable. Defog is not reliable, Rapid Spin is blocked, Magic Bounce is not viable, Court Change is high risk. This just does not work in a meta that introduced the gimmick of type changes(which honestly upends the whole foundation of the game) as well as such aggressive new pokemon who's checks and counters are hindered by hazards. I will vote to not ban Moon...there are many other factors like hazards being so low risk/high reward, Gholdengo and King(rewards poor plays). The tier is just miserable and stale to play right now and we keep going down the list banning stuff that may not even be the main issue...:(

 

[AK]

Kingambit is more of a problem than Roaring Moon.
Kingambit is the one we need to ban actually and unaware is actually more common than it has ever been, and multiple very common OU pokemon can have it. Clefable and dondozo are the two that come to mind. Booster Energy is basically a choice item without downsides. It is by far, a problem

Unaware is not the counterplay you think it is,

252 Atk Protosynthesis Tera Flying Roaring Moon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Flying Roaring Moon: 97-115 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Dondozo gets knocked off and loses its boots, which is terrible as it heavily relies on them to not get pressured, while also being unviable outside of stall.

Skeledirge is completely neutralized by the taunt set

I’m struggling to see how this can be used as valid counterplay, as mentioned above having to throw 1-2 to put it away is dumb. Lastly I do agree with the sentiment that Gliscor should have been taken a look at first, but it doesn’t change my mind at all on Moon.

 

[Goodstyle]

The Kingambit comparisons make the opposite point of what a lot of people here think they're making.

"Kingambit is the benchmark so this is fine" and "Kingambit is even more broken so we shouldn't be talking about this" is a bad way to look at suspect testing, and doesn't really apply when their strengths are so fundamentally different anyways. In fact, Gambit's weaknesses highlight what makes Roaring Moon so strong.

RM has a way more varied movepool, is less Tera reliant but makes just as good use of it, doesn't lose to encore, is faster than Iron Valiant after one DD, has Knock Off, has recovery, can taunt, and is faster than almost anything that can come in and burn it. I would point out that Booster Energy makes it better against Unaware mons, but Gambit has Supreme Overlord and naturally beats most Skeledirge and Clef variants, and both of them lose to physically bulky Dozos anyways.

You can say Gambit is overall better, but that's because of its bulk and unique typing allows it to act as an answer to a lot of really obnoxious things, wheras Roaring Moon is powerful because when it gets going there's really not a lot of answers. You can always encore or burn Gambit, Roaring Moon is more like a really obnoxious win condition with few weaknesses. As unhealthy as some aspects of Kingambit are, its typing allows it to act like a convenient glue for a lot of teams, and it's a big part of why people use it. RM is just good because there's basically no way to stop its sweeps besides strong priority moves.

In terms of the council's focus, RM along with Ogerpon make for especially obnoxious sweepers, but it's becoming more and more clear that Gliscor is the truly malign influence on the tier. I think we can survive Roaring Moon staying in the tier, but with the removal of the bear, Gliscor has become even more obviously broken, and we can ban as many powerful offensive threats as we want, but as long as that thing is there, this game is just going to be less and less fun to play as it warps the meta around it.

 

[658Greninja]

I highly reccommend that y’all vote ban on Moon.

DD and Band are just ridiculous. Legit the only counterplay is

A. Run Dozo (literally the case for 50% of the broken mons.)

B. Trade Toxic chip with Gliscor (and then lose to Taunt Tera Flying)

C. Fish for Scald burns with Mola. (Pray for dat 30% chance)

D. Gambit Sucker (50/50s mindgames, yummy)

E. Ice Shard from Mamo/Weavile (How the fuck are you switching those in without Mola?)

So as you can see, all of these counterplay options are inconsistent, involve sacking something, or Dozo. Even Dozo gets fck’d by spike stacking + Band Moon.

Sometimes it doesn’t even need a DD. Booster Knock/Acro/Brick already trucks everything off its broken Atk stat. Gambit might be more polarizing, but that doesn’t make Moon any less dumber.