np: UU - Six Deadly Suspects

[Relictivity]

I wasn't trying to compare hail to evasion, I was comparing the arguments of "what really deserves the ban."



So because I'm not "forced" to carry flying, fire, ghost, dark, or rock attacks, we should ban Shedinja, right? I mean, it beats my team and I should NOT be forced to go out of my way for one pokemon. That's what I'm reading. The "if I have to carry a move for this thing, fuck it. BL for my team's sake" mentality grinds my nerves (because that is exactly what this is).

I'm done. This won't get far.

No, you misinterpreted what I was saying. I meant to say "No team should be forced to carry an overspecified move." Eh, you may disagree, but let's look at Stealth Rock. You might say "Requiring Taunt is overspecified" but the fact is there are many, many other ways to deal with Stealth Rock, and therefore, it is not broken. That is what I meant to say, and is technically saying "a pokemon should not centralize to this point". It's the same argument I have with Evasion, 1HKOs and certain sweepers - people resort to using specific moves that not all teams should be required to carry. Eh, I'm not sure I explained that well, so allow for a little wiggle room. Really, it's just saying "A pokemon should not centralize the metagame that much." And truthfully, Taunt and Whirlwind are kind of borderline necessary anyways, so i'm not necessarily sure it applies to them.

Ah, note that this rule does not deal with what's going on in PR right now, because there are many, many ways to deal with Togekiss and Jirachi in the current metagame. There's also ways to deal with random freezes or burns. And crits, there are very few ways to deal with them, but they are kind of necessary. But I don't want to get to off topic, so yeah, ignore this if you want to.

 

[cim]

We don't actually know that, as no one has played an evasion metagame since RBY, but that's off topic.

I'm debating how important it is to keep Rapid Spin on my Obistyle stall. How often do you run into stall teams on the ladder?

Well almost anything faster than Froslass was a terrible lead

Crobat, Choice Scarf Anything, Ambipom... terrible leads?

 

[Erazor]

I've been playing the UU metagame with Regirock and against both Walrein and Regirock, and I'm finding that without weather, they are rather underwhelming.

In my opinon, Walrein on its own is not BL. While 110/90/90 defenses are by no means poor in the UU metagame, it has a hard time attacking without 100% Blizzard being provided by hail.
It certainly cannot fufill the defense characteristic, as it's weak to Fighting, Grass, and Electric, three powerful and common types in UU, and it's not going to outspeed very many Pokemon to counteract that with a 65 base Speed.
Support is the only thing it might be able to do with Sub/Protect/Toxic or the like, but many Pokemon can do that and it's easily stopped by the usual counters to Toxic Stalling (who are even more common in UU thanks to the multitude of Drapion, Roserade, Steelix, etc.)

By the same token, Regirock on its own is not BL. Run properly, Regirock can destroy large parts of the metagame, but ONLY if Sandstorm is up to prevent the large numbers of Bulky Waters from running it over with Surf, and Shaymin's Seed Flare will break it 30% of the time regardless of the weather situation. Without the Curse Set, it can't really attack, it can't defend from both ends of the spectrum at once without Sandstorm, and while it can support, it can't do so in an overly effective manner or one that Registeel and Steelix can't duplicate.

Snover and Hippopotas provide the support needed to fufill the Attack/Defense Characteristic in Regirock and the Defense characteristic in Walrein. Therefore, they are the BL suspects.

I agree. Walrein has the unfortunate distinction of being a defensive Ice Type, which really hurts it, despite the 110/90/90 defenses.
But once Snover enters the picture...

I wasn't trying to compare hail to evasion, I was comparing the arguments of "what really deserves the ban."

So because I'm not "forced" to carry flying, fire, ghost, dark, or rock attacks, we should ban Shedinja, right? I mean, it beats my team and I should NOT be forced to go out of my way for one pokemon. That's what I'm reading. The "if I have to carry a move for this thing, fuck it. BL for my team's sake" mentality grinds my nerves (because that is exactly what this is).

I'm done. This won't get far.

Veedrock, it's slightly different. I can guarantee you that almost all teams have some way of dealing with Shedinja. However - not all teams can incorporate taunt into their strategy. For example, if my team were to suddenly incorporate Taunt - its whole Synergy would be ruined.
I'm not saying that Walrein should be BL "because I need to have Taunt", I'm saying Snover's BL because it makes StallRein nearly impossible to kill in Hail.

 

[Heysup]

I wasn't trying to compare hail to evasion, I was comparing the arguments of "what really deserves the ban."

I still beleive they are completely different Topics that can not be addressed the same way.

So because I'm not "forced" to carry flying, fire, ghost, dark, or rock attacks, we should ban Shedinja, right? I mean, it beats my team and I should NOT be forced to go out of my way for one pokemon. That's what I'm reading. The "if I have to carry a move for this thing, fuck it. BL for my team's sake" mentality grinds my nerves (because that is exactly what this is).

I'm done. This won't get far.

You just proved my point, thank you. You just proved that your prime example has MANY ways to deal with it, and every team well carry many of those attacks regardless, SR is on almost every team as well. Walrein has one counter, Clefable. Taunt isnt even a surfire counter, unless its used by a very Specially Defensive pokemon. Clefable is the ONLY thing that counters Walrein, so again, i shouldnt be forced to carry Clefable, or even carry "taunt" on a Pokemon that fits the role of "Fast Specially Defensive Pokemon".

Well almost anything faster than Froslass was a terrible lead

Crobat, Choice Scarf Anything, Ambipom... terrible leads?

Thats quite a pathetic attempt CIM. Look at the real quote.

Well almost anything faster than Froslass was a terrible lead pre merge....so yes.

Lol @ Ambipom and Crobat. Cutting someones quote apart just for the sake that you get to say no is...not nice?

 

[Winto]

I'm debating how important it is to keep Rapid Spin on my Obistyle stall. How often do you run into stall teams on the ladder?

My experience so far has been that stall teams have been good, but not very common. I've honestly run into only two or three all-out stall based teams so far.

That being said, Intimidate Hitmontop is a beast on defensive teams, so if you're considering a spinner then this one's definitely a fine choice.

 

[cim]

I didn't mean to cut off HeYsUp's quote there, I thought he meant "pre-split" for some reason. (why are we still talking old uu this confuses chris)

Anyhow, I'm using Hariyama as a Blaziken counter so if I use Hitmontop I'll need a different one that somehow supports the team. Any suggestions?

 

[Heysup]

I didn't mean to cut off HeYsUp's quote there, I thought he meant "pre-split" for some reason. (why are we still talking old uu this confuses chris)

Anyhow, I'm using Hariyama as a Blaziken counter so if I use Hitmontop I'll need a different one that somehow supports the team. Any suggestions?

Milotic or Slowking work, Slowking can set up Screens or be a CMer/Trick Specs.

Milotic can be....Milotic.

I may change to Thunder Punch over Vacuum Wave on my Blaziken just because it would be much more fun if i could kill those two waters easier. Vacuum Wave is still fun though :D.

EDIT: OH right, Altaria is a great counter, while supplying you with Phazing and Roost.

 

[Winto]

Altaria?

Not that many pokemon run Hidden Power Ice anymore - especially LO Blaziken, who usually can't afford to go without Electric or Grass. I don't know the extent of your team so I dunno, but it can Heal Bell / Perish Song if that helps to fit over another particular member.

Hariyama is tough to replace :/

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Altaria?

Not that many pokemon run Hidden Power Ice anymore - especially LO Blaziken, who usually can't afford to go without Electric or Grass. I don't know the extent of your team so I dunno, but it can Heal Bell / Perish Song if that helps to fit over another particular member.

Hariyama is tough to replace :/

TBH I never really got the appeal of Hariyama as a Blaziken counter. Sure, it can come in and check it occasionally, but with the huge amount of damage Superpower does, it is often a losing battle. That's just the common LO wall-breaker set, Hariyama can forget about countering the SD or Choice sets.

For a more efficient overall check to Blaziken, people seem to be forgetting about an old UU favorite; Grumpig! This guy takes less damage from all attacks on the LO set, can spread status more efficiently, has access to screens and Trick Room for more support options, and, perhaps most importantly, has the speed to outrun most variants of Blaziken whilst threatening an OHKO. Doesn't have reliable recovery, but then again neither does Hariyama.

Of course when considering other factors besides Blaziken, both play much different roles, so it would be a case of team preference. Still, I've seen plenty of teams out there that could do with a Grumpig instead of Slowbro or Hariyama, but I guess have passed it up under the flawed mentality that it can no longer serve a use in the new UU. Just something to consider.

 

[Heysup]

TBH I never really got the appeal of Hariyama as a Blaziken counter. Sure, it can come in and check it occasionally, but with the huge amount of damage Superpower does, it is often a losing battle. That's just the common LO wall-breaker set, Hariyama can forget about countering the SD or Choice sets.

For a more efficient overall check to Blaziken, people seem to be forgetting about an old UU favorite; Grumpig! This guy takes less damage from all attacks on the LO set, can spread status more efficiently, has access to screens and Trick Room for more support options, and, perhaps most importantly, has the speed to outrun most variants of Blaziken whilst threatening an OHKO. Doesn't have reliable recovery, but then again neither does Hariyama.

Of course when considering other factors besides Blaziken, both play much different roles, so it would be a case of team preference. Still, I've seen plenty of teams out there that could do with a Grumpig instead of Slowbro or Hariyama, but I guess have passed it up under the flawed mentality that it can no longer serve a use in the new UU. Just something to consider.

Well Grumpig and Hariyama both have limitted switch in Power, a LO Superpower does 55% to Grumpig, so with SR it cant switch back in again. Blaziken also outspeeds it, unless its EVd to outspeed 20 Spe Blaziken(but then its more Vulnerable to Fire Blast).

Hariyama has similar problems, but tbh im much more worried about a Hariyama hitting me with a Strong Fighting attack, or Whirlwinding me rather than just being able to switch to Registeel who easily walls any Defensive Grumpig.

 

[cim]

TBH I never really got the appeal of Hariyama as a Blaziken counter. Sure, it can come in and check it occasionally, but with the huge amount of damage Superpower does, it is often a losing battle. That's just the common LO wall-breaker set, Hariyama can forget about countering the SD or Choice sets.

The general idea is that Hariyama kicks ass at more than countering Blaziken, such as beating the shit out of Chansey, Clefable, and Registeel, three threats everyone loves to hate.

For a more efficient overall check to Blaziken, people seem to be forgetting about an old UU favorite; Grumpig! This guy takes less damage from all attacks on the LO set, can spread status more efficiently, has access to screens and Trick Room for more support options, and, perhaps most importantly, has the speed to outrun most variants of Blaziken whilst threatening an OHKO. Doesn't have reliable recovery, but then again neither does Hariyama.

I love Grumpig and all but he doesn't do what "sturdy Fighting type" does on my team, and since I'd be replacing Hariyama with Hitmontop to spin I'd have to replace another team member, be it my Heal Beller, Spiker, or Perish Songer.

I should give Altaria another look, but I remember him sucking a lot before.

Of course when considering other factors besides Blaziken, both play much different roles, so it would be a case of team preference. Still, I've seen plenty of teams out there that could do with a Grumpig instead of Slowbro or Hariyama, but I guess have passed it up under the flawed mentality that it can no longer serve a use in the new UU. Just something to consider.

I've noticed something similar with Hypno; when talking about UU threats that hit it SE (Honchkrow, Mismagius) Chansey loses to them anyway so the only thing it can't beat that Chansey can is basically just Shaymin. Meanwhile stall teams could use the STAB Psychic attack to hit Toxic immune Pokémon hard as well as Insomnia which is almost as awesome as Natural Cure.

 

[Erazor]

I've noticed something similar with Hypno; when talking about UU threats that hit it SE (Honchkrow, Mismagius) Chansey loses to them anyway so the only thing it can't beat that Chansey can is basically just Shaymin.

Chris, I'm pretty sure this has been brought up already, but: Chansey is NOT a reliable counter to Shaymin. Seed Flare's Sp.def drop screws Chansey over royally.

 

[Winto]

I thought this had been brought up before too.

With a combination of Wish and Protect, Chansey can easily survive a Shaymin's attacks while Shaymin loses valuable PP and takes LO damage. Chansey still only takes around 50% after a defense drop... so I guess maybe if it gets the drop twice?

Then again, by that time you can switch to another pokemon to take the grass attack easily. (Which any good stall team has)

 

[Heysup]

Chris, I'm pretty sure this has been brought up already, but: Chansey is NOT a reliable counter to Shaymin. Seed Flare's Sp.def drop screws Chansey over royally.

I thought this had been brought up before too.

With a combination of Wish and Protect, Chansey can easily survive a Shaymin's attacks while Shaymin loses valuable PP and takes LO damage. Chansey still only takes around 50% after a defense drop... so I guess maybe if it gets the drop twice?

Then again, by that time you can switch to another pokemon to take the grass attack easily. (Which any good stall team has)

Modest LO Shaymin can 1v1 Chansey by possibly 2HKOing it after a Drop. Timid LO Shaymin will do average 60% after a drop, so its not a reliable counter even then.

More importantly, when a "counter" is forced out, its hardly a counter. A counter must switch in and immediately threaten the Pokemon with either Stalling its PP out, or KOing it. The only surfire counter is likely Moltres or Charizard, who are destroyed by SR.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Well Grumpig and Hariyama both have limitted switch in Power, a LO Superpower does 55% to Grumpig, so with SR it cant switch back in again. Blaziken also outspeeds it, unless its EVd to outspeed 20 Spe Blaziken(but then its more Vulnerable to Fire Blast).

55%? With no Defense maybe, but defensive Grumpigs will be running Defense so that point is moot. Grumpig shares the same speed as Blaziken, so outrunning 20 Spe versions requires, um, 24 Spe or above? What a stretch that is. Lol at the idea of Grumpig being threatened by Fire Blast.

Hariyama has similar problems, but tbh im much more worried about a Hariyama hitting me with a Strong Fighting attack, or Whirlwinding me rather than just being able to switch to Registeel who easily walls any Defensive Grumpig.

More like defensive Grumpig walls Registeel. With Reflect, and possibly Taunt, Registeel is completely shut down. Then it depends on the set: either use it as Dual Screen bait or Seismic Toss to death. Obviously Registeel doesn't always wall offensive Grumpigs either, fearing TrickSpecs or CM/Specs Focus Blasts.

Grumpig's major disadvantage in this metagame is Honchkrow, who is everywhere atm, but at least defensive versions stand a chance of doing something with Reflect /T-Wave etc, perhaps even Power Gem or super-effective Hidden Power, whilst Specs variants can possibly KO with prediction using Focus Blast.

The general idea is that Hariyama kicks ass at more than countering Blaziken, such as beating the shit out of Chansey, Clefable, and Registeel, three threats everyone loves to hate.

Again, Grumpig can make an ass out of those Pokemon and set up on them. It all depends on your team and what niche you need to fill. Grumpig can do things that Hariyama can't and vice versa. I'm certainly NOT saying 'use Grumpig over Hariyama period'. That would be retarded.

I love Grumpig and all but he doesn't do what "sturdy Fighting type" does on my team, and since I'd be replacing Hariyama with Hitmontop to spin I'd have to replace another team member, be it my Heal Beller, Spiker, or Perish Songer.

Yeah, I actually remember seeing an early version of that team of yours, and I agree that Grumig wouldn't fit at all. Altaria is a good Perish Songer though, it can stand up to a fair few stat-uppers. EDIT: can use Heal Bell well too.

I've noticed something similar with Hypno; when talking about UU threats that hit it SE (Honchkrow, Mismagius) Chansey loses to them anyway so the only thing it can't beat that Chansey can is basically just Shaymin. Meanwhile stall teams could use the STAB Psychic attack to hit Toxic immune Pokémon hard as well as Insomnia which is almost as awesome as Natural Cure.

Well the problem with Hypno as far as Blaziken is concerned is that it will probably lose to more physical versions due to lack of Fire resist. But could do well against the LO set, assuming Fire Blast can't 2HKO with Rocks down. Still, Hypno certainly has its uses, and I'm sure part of the reason both it and Grumpig are so rarely used is due to the fact that people still have this 'useless' mentality around them with respect to the current UU, which isn't necessarily true. They have niches that Uxie / Mesprit / Slowbro etc can't fill.

 

[Winto]

Modest LO Shaymin can 1v1 Chansey by possibly 2HKOing it after a Drop. Timid LO Shaymin will do average 60% after a drop, so its not a reliable counter even then.

More importantly, when a "counter" is forced out, its hardly a counter. A counter must switch in and immediately threaten the Pokemon with either Stalling its PP out, or KOing it. The only surfire counter is likely Moltres or Charizard, who are destroyed by SR.

If by 2HKOing you mean it does around 50%, then it still stands that Shaymin will need a second Sp. Defense drop to win one on one against a Wish Chansey. 40% chance for one, 40% chance for another, taking in consideration the accuracy... yeah, not good.

Point taken about the 'counter' though. You usually have to play around Shaymin with more than one pokemon.

 

[AeroGP]

I may change to Thunder Punch over Vacuum Wave on my Blaziken just because it would be much more fun if i could kill those two waters easier.

In my experience, you're not getting very far without a critical hit on Slowbro; it'll just Slack Off the damage and go on with its business. I'd still keep the Vacuum Wave.

Chris, I'm pretty sure this has been brought up already, but: Chansey is NOT a reliable counter to Shaymin. Seed Flare's Sp.def drop screws Chansey over royally.

All the Chansey I've come across seem to get by just fine in spite of that, and I'm running Specs. Those Sp.Def drops don't come all the time, and when they don't the pink blob just laughs. =/

Also it can't really threaten Shaymin, but that never stopped Toxic. And with only Rest to counteract...

 

[haunter]

You usually have to play around Shaymin with more than one pokemon.

I completely agree with this last sentence. Probably the best thing which comes close to a "counter" for shaymin is regiice, and even regiice loses sometimes considering that its stealth rock weakness limits its number of switch in, not to mention that the subseeder is still problematic.
Using shaymin on most of my teams, I can say that really few pokemons can switch in safely, moltres\articuno would be fine if it wasn't for that 4x SR weakness.
Seriously, in a crobat-less environment shaymin seems really broken.

 

[Heysup]

If by 2HKOing you mean it does around 50%, then it still stands that Shaymin will need a second Sp. Defense drop to win one on one against a Wish Chansey. 40% chance for one, 40% chance for another, taking in consideration the accuracy... yeah, not good.

Point taken about the 'counter' though. You usually have to play around Shaymin with more than one pokemon.

Well too be fair, thats ONLY if Timid, and two Defense drops is not even close to unlikely, Shaymin has Earthpower/Psychic to help as well. 40% is more than 1/3 of Shaymins attacks, so in 8 Attacks, Shaymin will get 2-3 Def Drops.

Your last sentance is exactly why I beleive Shaymin is BL material.

In my experience, you're not getting very far without a critical hit on Slowbro; it'll just Slack Off the damage and go on with its business. I'd still keep the Vacuum Wave.

Blaziken 2HKOs Slowbro with Fire Blast+Hidden Power. Slowbro isnt even a threat to Blaziken on the switch. Ill probably just make it Vacuum Wave / ThunderPunch on my analysis.

 

[Winto]

328 Atk vs 169 Def & 641 HP (120 Base Power): 325 - 384 (50.70% - 59.91%)

Meh, seems around 50% to me. ?_? When factoring leftovers?

Whatever. Anyway, someone else mentioned it, but it really helped Shaymin's cause that a lot of its checks were the ones banned for this testing period.

I think a lot of us will agree that if Crobat, Froslass and some of the other Suspects are kept in this metagame it will not be nearly as threatening.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

PROTIP: Jumpluff owns the shit out of Shaymin.

Just saying.

EDIT: Just to clarify. Jumpluff can come in on any attack other than Air Slash/Psychic/(possible HP ice?) and Encore it before either stalling Shaymin out of all of its PP, letting a setup mon come in, or killing it with a STAB flying attack.

 

[Wyzra]

Jumpluff may be faster but it can't Leech Seed, does laughable damage with U-Turns, and is OHKOed by HP Ice. Charizard, Moltres, Roserade and Swellow are decent though, at least for me, and until Shaymins start packing HP rock =P. But, as I said before, Shaymin is still BL material in my eyes.

 

[AeroGP]

Blaziken 2HKOs Slowbro with Fire Blast+Hidden Power.

Yes, but not with Thunder Punch. That was my point.

 

[blue_light]

Last time I checked Shaymin is a grass-type pokemon which makes it invulnerable to leech seed. Meanwhile Jumpluff can do absolutely nothing to shaymin, even if it u-turns or uses some kind of powder, it's not going to any lasting damage to shaymin. Meanwhile Shaymin can nail Jumpluff with an SE HP or Air Slash or Psychic on the switch which will hurt Jumpluff pretty badly considering it has an SR weakness and no reliable recovery when shaymin is on the field.

 

[Winto]

Yes, but not with Thunder Punch. That was my point.

lol, well Heysup was talking about Slowking, not Slowbro in the original post you quoted.

Jumpluff can encore Seed Flare on the switch in, which is the point, not leech seed or anything else. Yes, Shaymin can predict and use Hidden Power, but then same goes for Crobat with Psychic, etc.