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np: XY UU Stage 3 - Calling [Diggersby: BL, Next: Scolipede]
- Thread starter kokoloko
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From a few games, I have to say that the drops have made stall even harder to pull off. On the plus side, SD hera is no longer a threat and mew's defog abilities are gone and there are still quite a lot of good replacements for slowbro such as mega luvdisc, but the negatives have made much more of an impact. Togekiss is actually more of a liability to stall due to its easy defog against stall and more importantly nastypass set which is obscenely effective against stall. Smeargle is also really effective against stall, being able to baton pass loads of including quiver dance that makes roserade who is arguably smeargle's best answer for stall have a tough time and who can also set up double hazards easily. Espeon obviously complicates things with another strong baton passer (immune to roar noticeably) and magic bounce.
But yeah, baton pass makes stall really hard to pull off in a nut shell especially when you see that three new very effective ones have all dropped and all require very different approaches to deal with each of them and there are plenty of good baton pass recipents hanging around UU such megatoise, haxorus, and megasol.
I think reactionary playstyles such as stall and balance are going to struggle in this metagame, but styles such as heavy offense have just had the crem de la crem of wallbreaking handed to them on a silver plateur.
But yeah, baton pass makes stall really hard to pull off in a nut shell especially when you see that three new very effective ones have all dropped and all require very different approaches to deal with each of them and there are plenty of good baton pass recipents hanging around UU such megatoise, haxorus, and megasol.
I think reactionary playstyles such as stall and balance are going to struggle in this metagame, but styles such as heavy offense have just had the crem de la crem of wallbreaking handed to them on a silver plateur.
Has anybody else noticed more tentacruel floating around, specially with sludge wave? It feels like people are trying to combat the fire spam that is more easily abused thanks to slowbros depature while hitting new fairies for SE damage. Not too mention that hazards are more prevalent thanks to mews depature so being a t spikes absorber and spinner gives it a good niche in the current meta imo...
Yeah Tentacruel is very good now, being a fast spinner that absorbs T.spikes (which has improved a lot without Mew/Hera) and can threaten out most if not all Rocks setters with its STABs. Clear Body ignores Sticky Web while Liquid Ooze gives Giga Drain Roserade a hard time. The problem is that it lacks recovery, has poor defense and has some issues with spinblockers (tho Scald burns help). I wouldn't say it stops fire spam since it takes a lot of damage from Banded V-create, but being able to threaten out most Fairies is really nice.
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Now that I've played several games with these drops, time to jot down my [cancerous] observations!
-Togekiss is not really broken yet imho; I can't even conclude that it's worthy of S rank yet as opposed to Jirachi, who really loves the drops. Base 80 speed holds Togekiss back in this meta a lot more than I thought, regardless of its new [godsent] typing, but overall it's still a fantastic 'mon to play around with due to its versatility :]
-Geopass Smeargle on the other hand is really fucking dumb. Just pass a geomancy boost and a Cotton Guard or two, give all that to Espeon (or Togekiss), and now you can fuck entire teams over lol. So easy to execute and it literally rips teams a new one.
-SubToxic Rachi is still da best :]
-Haven't tested Vap, Quag, and Diancie yet but idc enough.
Overall, if I had to mention any concerns about the drops, I'd have to go with Smeargle. I feel that when played at its best, GeoPass Smeargle is just too cancerous for this metagame, and I feel that as a result, I would vouch for banning Geomancy asap.
-Togekiss is not really broken yet imho; I can't even conclude that it's worthy of S rank yet as opposed to Jirachi, who really loves the drops. Base 80 speed holds Togekiss back in this meta a lot more than I thought, regardless of its new [godsent] typing, but overall it's still a fantastic 'mon to play around with due to its versatility :]
-Geopass Smeargle on the other hand is really fucking dumb. Just pass a geomancy boost and a Cotton Guard or two, give all that to Espeon (or Togekiss), and now you can fuck entire teams over lol. So easy to execute and it literally rips teams a new one.
-SubToxic Rachi is still da best :]
-Haven't tested Vap, Quag, and Diancie yet but idc enough.
Overall, if I had to mention any concerns about the drops, I'd have to go with Smeargle. I feel that when played at its best, GeoPass Smeargle is just too cancerous for this metagame, and I feel that as a result, I would vouch for banning Geomancy asap.
dingbat i havent seen any geosmeargle at all, but the lack of sash makes him extremely vulnerable, even accounting fo. Spore. You need power herb for geo to work and that base 75speed will leave smeargle in the dust by just about everything. SmashPass or QuiverPass with sash and dark void are probably the best atm with sash.
Pretty sure he's talking about Denissss team that's everywhere on the ladder with some filler mon instead of Gothitelle (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/baton-pass-skill.3514679/) this Smeargle doesn't need sash because of memento and screens so it can run power herb. And the speed is irrelevant because of tailwind. And I agree with Dingbat this is very unhealthy for the metagame.
... thats a pretty annoying team and i have not seen it truth be told. People need to be more specific when they say stuff like geo smeargle is ruining the game. I havent encountered it since drops happened (i havent had a chance to play to much this week tbh). But, i can see what you mean on this strategy being broken, but is this really different than other HO teams?If you set up screens, 2 mementos, just about anything could sweep at that point, not just baton pass smeargle.
I think nine changes (drops and adds together) are enough to change very much this tier. Mew but above all Slowbro/Heracross use was important and trio
Kiss/Quag/Beagle has the look of be centralized, Togekiss more than ever.
Kiss/Quag/Beagle has the look of be centralized, Togekiss more than ever.
Agreeing with dingbat I haven't found Togekiss to be too strong really. I find that it has a serious case of 4MSS. If it isn't running Flamethrower/Fire Blast it struggles to get past Steel types. If it isn't running Dazzling Gleam it struggles to get past M-Ampharos. If it wants to run Nasty Plot it will generally be limited to 2 attacking moves, 1 if it wants paraflinch, as Roost imo is pretty mandatory to get back lost HP. A lot of checks to it are rather common already, and Togekiss has quite a few on any given set.
Its speed is also rather shitty, which sucks vs the other Paraflincher Jirachi. Nidoking is also a great switchin to Togekiss. And on the topic of its new "god" typing, it is really a double edged sword. Granted it got some good new resistances/immunities, but it also gained an additional 2 weaknesses to last gen which can threaten it, and although the pros probably do outweigh the cons, they are rather noticeable. Also the lack of a real good new STAB is also a little disappointing. Dazzling Gleam doesn't provide too much for Togekiss. It doesn't hit all that hard, doesn't provide that much added coverage or any added utility. It's not bad, and any addition to a movepool is welcome, but it would much prefer Moon Blast with Serene Grace which would just be so bloody annoying.
And UU is much stronger than what it was last gen, all of which lead me to believe that Togekiss isn't really much better than it was last gen in UU, and perhaps even worse. But that may just be me.
I also agree with dingbat on that Smeargle and Espeon dropping together is probably the scariest thing for UU at the moment.
Its speed is also rather shitty, which sucks vs the other Paraflincher Jirachi. Nidoking is also a great switchin to Togekiss. And on the topic of its new "god" typing, it is really a double edged sword. Granted it got some good new resistances/immunities, but it also gained an additional 2 weaknesses to last gen which can threaten it, and although the pros probably do outweigh the cons, they are rather noticeable. Also the lack of a real good new STAB is also a little disappointing. Dazzling Gleam doesn't provide too much for Togekiss. It doesn't hit all that hard, doesn't provide that much added coverage or any added utility. It's not bad, and any addition to a movepool is welcome, but it would much prefer Moon Blast with Serene Grace which would just be so bloody annoying.
And UU is much stronger than what it was last gen, all of which lead me to believe that Togekiss isn't really much better than it was last gen in UU, and perhaps even worse. But that may just be me.
I also agree with dingbat on that Smeargle and Espeon dropping together is probably the scariest thing for UU at the moment.
After a decent amount of testing this is, for the most part, how I see the relevant drops.
Espeon is neat but I still find it a bit frail to prevent hazards in the long run and otherwise outclassed by things like zam that I don't see much need to run it, obviously cancer bp chains love this thing.
Vaporeon returning was really refreshing as its type/bulk/wishes/heal bell are really useful, especially with the loss of bro.
Togekiss has been great so far but it has a very bad case of 4mss and lowish speed for the current powerful, fast meta which might hold it back from being a top rank mon it was believed to be.
Smeargle is the real cancer drop with 3 stat passes/hazards I find it to be the "best" of the drops. I don't think it would be a stretch to say something could be done to either limit or remove this thing.
Nidoking and Empoleon are among the mons that should really benefit from the new changes. Nidoking with its offensive presence and access to tspikes without mew around to defog relatively safely makes the king a formidable mon once again. Empoleon, on the other hand, handles all the new drops well and is a more viable option for defog/sr now that mew and hera are gone
Espeon is neat but I still find it a bit frail to prevent hazards in the long run and otherwise outclassed by things like zam that I don't see much need to run it, obviously cancer bp chains love this thing.
Vaporeon returning was really refreshing as its type/bulk/wishes/heal bell are really useful, especially with the loss of bro.
Togekiss has been great so far but it has a very bad case of 4mss and lowish speed for the current powerful, fast meta which might hold it back from being a top rank mon it was believed to be.
Smeargle is the real cancer drop with 3 stat passes/hazards I find it to be the "best" of the drops. I don't think it would be a stretch to say something could be done to either limit or remove this thing.
Nidoking and Empoleon are among the mons that should really benefit from the new changes. Nidoking with its offensive presence and access to tspikes without mew around to defog relatively safely makes the king a formidable mon once again. Empoleon, on the other hand, handles all the new drops well and is a more viable option for defog/sr now that mew and hera are gone
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Doesn't Crobat and M-Aerodactyl shut down Smeargle with Taunt? I feel Smeargle is getting a bit overhyped as the two Pokes I mentioned are a bit common. Smeargle can't really lead with those two in the team preview because they can taunt, and Smeargle has to carry white herb instead of focus sash.
Edit: I could see it paired with a slow u-turn/volt switch to come in easier but so far I haven't found issue with it
Edit: I could see it paired with a slow u-turn/volt switch to come in easier but so far I haven't found issue with it
Smeargle often carry magic coat to reflect any predicted taunts back at the user, not only blocking the taunt but making sure smeargle can start setting up the next turn. What smeargle does is the furthest thing from overhyped and your argument of taunt, while valid isn't the guaranteed stop to smearle you think it is
I threw together a team with Shuckle + 5 offensive 'mons to play around a little and it's really pretty good, I want to try out a few different things like using Sableye as a spinblocker or something.
Offensive Togekiss works amazingly with Webs but I feel like I want all of Nasty Plot, Air Slash, Dazzling Gleam, Fire Blast, Roost and Baton Pass (I went NP+3 attacks for coverage but I really missed Roost especially).
Offensive Togekiss works amazingly with Webs but I feel like I want all of Nasty Plot, Air Slash, Dazzling Gleam, Fire Blast, Roost and Baton Pass (I went NP+3 attacks for coverage but I really missed Roost especially).
Jacks0n
formerly grassycow
Smeargle + espeon is so cancer. These BP chains have such a good match-up vs everyplay style in the meta game, and perform even better in UU than OU, because the main wallbreakers lurk in OU. I really think action against baton pass needs to be done quickly, as rn espeon + smeargle + whimsicott + azelf + 2 fillers is by far too good for UU.
Jacks0n
formerly grassycow
espeon is definately the main culprit, stored power + magic bounce lets it recieve the boosts to wreck withough getting fazed.
Xatu could do the role just as well as Espeon with Roost > Morning Sun so I wouldn't call Espeon the main culprit here. Geomancy isn't a move thats meant to be used by just any Pokemon, and as such, indicates that Smeargle is the big problem in this situation.
I find Shaymin to be better in this meta, as it deals with Quag, Vape, and Diancie. It also benefits from Hera being gone too, although it can easily OHKO it with Air Slash on a predicted switch. It is hindered by Togekiss, however, as it has no real way of dealing with it.
Shaymin @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Air Slash
- Earth Power
- Rest / Synthesis
Just dropping in to say I've been having a lot of fun with NastyPass Togekiss paired with the almighty Bandtrio, seriously this pairing shits on nearly all the common answers to NP Kiss except for stuff like Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Aggron that Duggy can't quite kill. The fact that pretty much all of those mons are shat on by Mega Blastoise which is arguably the best Nasty Plot recipient in the tier rn and therefore a great partner for Kiss is only the cherry on top ^^
I've been experimenting a good deal with a modification of Denis' team in UU.
First of all, it does requires skill, good prediction and strategic thought to pull off versus good structured teams. Counting your screens right and getting your taunt at the precise moment could mean the game.
Secondly, it is not true that it is easier to pull in UU than in OU. Denis himself said the biggest counter to it's team is Amoonguss. While it is very viable in OU, it's a pokemon sitting two tiers below the relavant tier! Many of the additional counters to the stratagey sit right here in our own UU and they are very viable without specifically aiming to deal with this.
The Team I ended up with is -
Before going over the counters and threat list, I would like to voice my opinion that if anything about this ( or in fact about any of the new drops, like others already said in this thread ) should be suspected/tested/banned imo is probably just the move Geomancy.
Counters :
Toxic Umbreon - Even if Espeon is behind a sub, when Umbreon uses Toxic, it triggers Magic Bounce and bounces back into Umbreon. As Umbreon gets poisoned, it triggers it's synchronise and badly poisons Espeon as well. Meaning the Espeon user should not even bother subbing as it just lowers it's diminishing health. This puts a timer on Espeon and once it dies, Espeon's team probably doesn't have another chance at winning. Furthermore, Espeon needs 168 SpA Ev's to ensure +2 Dazzling Gleam will 2hko. Otherwise, Umbreon can stall more poison turns with WishTect or even win 1vs1 with Heal Bell+Moonlight. The only chance of survival is to try to Geomancy twice.
Dragon Tail users - Unlike Roar, Magic Bounce and Taunt don't block it. To
be failproof, I need to Encore with Whimsicott, which is immune to it due to fairy typing. Then I just have enough turns to Memento, bring Smeargle in, Geomancy and immideatly Baton Pass into Togekiss. Giving the boosts to Togekiss instead of Espeon is already subpar but not passing to it any Cotton Guard boosts is a really weak and frail situation to be in. Furthermore, while this strategy can deal with Miltoic and Goodra, both Aggron and Rhyperior tend to carry Dragon Tail just as much as they tend to carry Roar so it's really a 50/50 if I should Taunt/Baton Pass to Espeon or Baton Pass to Togekiss. If I lose my guess, I lose my game. In fact, (M)Aggron is such a pain as Heavy Slam nails Togekiss so if it carries both moves, this team loses.
Spdef Jirachi - " If Jirachi is using a SpD set it will be able to pp stall my 200BP Stored Power + Dazzling Gleam from Espeon. For that reason I will need to use the move Geomancy twice, then Espeon will have power enough to 2HKO it. "
Prankster Taunt - Shuts down the whole team and each needs to be carefully played around. Sableye is outsped by Whimsicott and 2hkod by 0Spa Togekiss. Tornadus is 1hkod by Aero and outsped by Whimsicott(beware of STAB). Lastly, Espeon can come in and out to bounce Taunts and other shannenigans back but fears Knock Off from Sableye and any strong hitting move from Tornadus, however it deals best with Whimsicott. All in all, an untimely Taunt can mean the game and most of the time, the best case scenario will be passing just Geomancy to Espeon, which isn't enough to break Blissey.
Lead Galvantula - Sticky Web will erase all of Geomancy's speed boosts as it will affect Smeargle once and then the baton passed Espeon twice. Since it critical to Taunt Galvantula, it can just Thunder Aero and Bug Buzz Azelf and limit them to either no Stealth Rocks and one screen or no screens at all. In fact, after Aero dies it's better to just bring Whimsicott and risk not having screens.
First of all, it does requires skill, good prediction and strategic thought to pull off versus good structured teams. Counting your screens right and getting your taunt at the precise moment could mean the game.
Secondly, it is not true that it is easier to pull in UU than in OU. Denis himself said the biggest counter to it's team is Amoonguss. While it is very viable in OU, it's a pokemon sitting two tiers below the relavant tier! Many of the additional counters to the stratagey sit right here in our own UU and they are very viable without specifically aiming to deal with this.
The Team I ended up with is -
Before going over the counters and threat list, I would like to voice my opinion that if anything about this ( or in fact about any of the new drops, like others already said in this thread ) should be suspected/tested/banned imo is probably just the move Geomancy.
Counters :
be failproof, I need to Encore with Whimsicott, which is immune to it due to fairy typing. Then I just have enough turns to Memento, bring Smeargle in, Geomancy and immideatly Baton Pass into Togekiss. Giving the boosts to Togekiss instead of Espeon is already subpar but not passing to it any Cotton Guard boosts is a really weak and frail situation to be in. Furthermore, while this strategy can deal with Miltoic and Goodra, both Aggron and Rhyperior tend to carry Dragon Tail just as much as they tend to carry Roar so it's really a 50/50 if I should Taunt/Baton Pass to Espeon or Baton Pass to Togekiss. If I lose my guess, I lose my game. In fact, (M)Aggron is such a pain as Heavy Slam nails Togekiss so if it carries both moves, this team loses.
You can use Stored Power Togekiss as a BP Recipient. Air Slash + Stored Power + Roost lets it pull its weight when you face a team with a Dragon Tail user as it's immune to it. Someone linked me these replays of kokoloko using it http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-159944136 & http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-159945178.
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