I've tried both on it and found Volt Switch to be slightly more useful most of the time. The power sacrifice is not much and allows it to pivot and get out of some sticky situations when asleep. I guess it depends if you already have fast heavy-hitters on your team or not since they can finish off the job after a slow Volt Switch.
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np: XY UU Stage 3 - Calling [Diggersby: BL, Next: Scolipede]
- Thread starter kokoloko
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=( i had my reasons god damn it
i know I shouldn't beat a dead horse, but the reason smeargle was banned wasn't really about the abstract concepts of "luck" or "team matchup", for that matter. both of these terms are just magnanimously used to try and represent the real problem, which is that there are very limited and very ineffective counters for the playstyle. The objection of "team matchup" really could be used about any rare and hipster playstyle - see: Trick Room, Sun, Rain.... What separates smearglepass from these is the inability to counter it unless you carry very specific pokemon - if you don't, it actually DOES come down to luck - crits, status, 50/50s - these allow teams without a hard counter to "beat" smearglepass, but not in any reliable sort of way.
A problem occurs when a rare playstyle is effective enough to warrant valid concern that it might beat a "standard team", and when the counters to that playstyle are so obscure or anti-meta that they are a crippling measure against the other 99% of teams. It's not a matter of UU not adapting to the existence of SmearglePass in the meta, it's that it literally does not make sense to adapt to it. The benefit of an auto-win against dEnIsSs teams is not even remotely worth the team slot / move slot you give up, making SmearglePass unhealthy for the tier on the basis of lack of counters.
again, i hate to harp on this, but I know i'll be bombarded with questions about why smeargle was banned, and I'd like to clear this up.
The return of Victini (even if it may only be temporary) brings a tier my face :'( It really does limit team building pretty badly, and even then can get around its counters or checks pretty easily. With Bolt Strike hitting those Bulky Waters like Alomola pretty darn hard, those counters that are immune to Bolt Strike such as Rhyperior and Swampert which don't have recovery and can be smacked by Grass-Knot/Energy Ball Victini and anything that is not a counter still being hit ridiculously hard by V-Create is just all a major pain to deal with in the tier, that I personally find unhealthy for the metagame.
Sporting great bulk, a solid speed tier, movepool, typing that carries quite a few pros and a variety of viable sets makes it rather bothersome for UU to find answers to all of these traits.
I remember people started running Pursuit M-Aerodactyl to revenge Victini, and I saw quite a few Victinis who were actually able to play around it, take a Pursuit and take down the M-Aero before switching out or getting sacked to let the next Pokemon in.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Pursuit vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 196-232 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Play wrong and kek
Sporting great bulk, a solid speed tier, movepool, typing that carries quite a few pros and a variety of viable sets makes it rather bothersome for UU to find answers to all of these traits.
I remember people started running Pursuit M-Aerodactyl to revenge Victini, and I saw quite a few Victinis who were actually able to play around it, take a Pursuit and take down the M-Aero before switching out or getting sacked to let the next Pokemon in.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Pursuit vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 196-232 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Play wrong and kek
Hm... I do recall running Jolly Honchkrow for Victini. At -1 you do a minimum of 73%, while a second V-create not only puts you slower than Jolly Honch even scarfed, but is almost a guaranteed OHKO without a switch. Unfortunately, Adamant Krow is 5 points short of tying -2 Scarfed Victini. Oh well.
Obviously, we're all worried about Bandtini physical Scarftini. What's the concern level for Specstini? Just ran a calc and Specs Dazzling Gleam will 2HKO PDef Mega Ampharos, which is obviously my answer to most variants. Is this even something that contributes to Victini's brokenness?
Obviously, we're all worried about Bandtini physical Scarftini. What's the concern level for Specstini? Just ran a calc and Specs Dazzling Gleam will 2HKO PDef Mega Ampharos, which is obviously my answer to most variants. Is this even something that contributes to Victini's brokenness?
idk bout you but I'm happy. Can finally start abusing CB V-Create again :D
The best thing for either set is Mixed defenses arcanine I dont know the exact evs but you can have it split to switch in on both sets. However I suggest just running Umbreon/blissey and alo/arcanine of course there are many ways to beat tini but those are the best walls for the common tini sets (blissey and umb for special ofc). Overall though amph or specs dreigon are both great offensive checks and they both just wreck tini if you are really feeling cheeky banded/sash dugtrio.
I mean sure there are plenty of ways to check victini. Sunfish beats physical versions and Blissey stops special versions. Inherently the problem with tini is the fact that it combines ridiculous speed no wallbreaker in uu has ever had with more than respectable bulk and of course unheralded wallbreaking power. I haven't really decided my stand yet. There are great arguments to be said for both sides.
I would say Tini has a great amount of checks but a severe lack of counters until you know the set. With most mons a counter is regardless of set but since tini has a huge range I dont think it has any hard counters and even the best of checks are a risk without some scouting. Overall I think Tini is only as good as it is because there is a good chance for a scenario close to a 50/50 (Not a perfect 50/50 since like 80% of the time it is banded but you get the idea) so I would say tini is not broke but will be a threat to most teams in a major way.
I've already stated my opinions on Victini being BL. Personally, I understand why it should be BL, but I think it adds a lot to the meta.
Many people argue that it lacks a definitive counter, but to be fair, it really depends on the set. Tbh, I would say the most used set (in my experience, I could be wrong), would be CB with Trick. If it runs u-turn, v, bolt strike, and trick, you can basically beat many bulky waters, such as megablastoise and milotic, as well as getting relatively free switch ins on like roserade, celebi, and florges. Trick allows it to beat things like crocune or maybe cm cresselia (if you are low on vcreates).
I think the hardest set to be would either be LO with coverage special moves + V-Create, or a lure set, with energy ball and glaciate. With these moves, you can beat almost every check to the physical set, such as quagsire, swampert, rhyperior, suicine, etc. The best counters would be things like CB/Vest/Lefties Snorlax, or specially defensive hippo. I've personally never had any issues with victini because it does not require a lot of scouting to see what type of moves victini has. It has the most potential the first one or two times it comes out. If you catch a swampert with energy ball, you are in the clear, but other things can easily beat it, such a healthy cune, or a mega blastoise, mega-amp. It reminds me of Kingdra in BW and Bw2, where it could be specs, dd, subdd, or rain dance.
imo it should stay. It is amazing at opening holes for certain mons, but it requires another mon to really do the cleaning up. ie something like v-create + special moves to lure in blissey/florges for something like subcm raikou to sweep. It isn't like lucario, which can effectively dismantle entire teams with SR and the ONE good answer to lucario at +2 (np/sd). I usually watch out for things like Lucario, as stated, as more of a threat because lucario is a danger to all teams, unless you carry like mega-aero + slowking + cobalion, or something like that to stop it cold.
+ things like banded intimdate krook, scarf hydra, duggy, they are all VERY viable mons, and they make victini's life a lot harder
just my opinions n_n
Many people argue that it lacks a definitive counter, but to be fair, it really depends on the set. Tbh, I would say the most used set (in my experience, I could be wrong), would be CB with Trick. If it runs u-turn, v, bolt strike, and trick, you can basically beat many bulky waters, such as megablastoise and milotic, as well as getting relatively free switch ins on like roserade, celebi, and florges. Trick allows it to beat things like crocune or maybe cm cresselia (if you are low on vcreates).
I think the hardest set to be would either be LO with coverage special moves + V-Create, or a lure set, with energy ball and glaciate. With these moves, you can beat almost every check to the physical set, such as quagsire, swampert, rhyperior, suicine, etc. The best counters would be things like CB/Vest/Lefties Snorlax, or specially defensive hippo. I've personally never had any issues with victini because it does not require a lot of scouting to see what type of moves victini has. It has the most potential the first one or two times it comes out. If you catch a swampert with energy ball, you are in the clear, but other things can easily beat it, such a healthy cune, or a mega blastoise, mega-amp. It reminds me of Kingdra in BW and Bw2, where it could be specs, dd, subdd, or rain dance.
imo it should stay. It is amazing at opening holes for certain mons, but it requires another mon to really do the cleaning up. ie something like v-create + special moves to lure in blissey/florges for something like subcm raikou to sweep. It isn't like lucario, which can effectively dismantle entire teams with SR and the ONE good answer to lucario at +2 (np/sd). I usually watch out for things like Lucario, as stated, as more of a threat because lucario is a danger to all teams, unless you carry like mega-aero + slowking + cobalion, or something like that to stop it cold.
+ things like banded intimdate krook, scarf hydra, duggy, they are all VERY viable mons, and they make victini's life a lot harder
just my opinions n_n
I dont know about the rest of you, but a Victini-less tier was pretty nice and really diversified the tier. I think we all "prepare" for tini, but what does that mean exactly? Having a reliable check like Sucker Punch/Pursuit users? I ran the calcs a few pages back and I think Mega Absol failed to cleanly OHKO while LO honch was the only relevant user to KO.
Defensive cores like Hippo and Blissey (just one example) have to watch out for mixed sets. Its coverage is really flawless and it can bust through its normal checks and counters with relative ease (or just really strong CB V-Creates lol).
Even finding a reliable scarfer to check Tini is tough. That base 100 speed is so crucial and outspeeds Hydreigon, the only poke who resists both STABs. While Victini is mostly CB or LO, it can play a scarfed role just as easily.
I dont know about tini. Its been around for a while and was just one of those pokes you prepare for. But, in reality, the tiniuser has the upperhand in most battles and prediction is almost entirely on the opponents part.
Defensive cores like Hippo and Blissey (just one example) have to watch out for mixed sets. Its coverage is really flawless and it can bust through its normal checks and counters with relative ease (or just really strong CB V-Creates lol).
Even finding a reliable scarfer to check Tini is tough. That base 100 speed is so crucial and outspeeds Hydreigon, the only poke who resists both STABs. While Victini is mostly CB or LO, it can play a scarfed role just as easily.
I dont know about tini. Its been around for a while and was just one of those pokes you prepare for. But, in reality, the tiniuser has the upperhand in most battles and prediction is almost entirely on the opponents part.
The thing with Victini is the extreme difficulty of switching in. It has like 9000 viable sets and most of them share moves with one another so it's near impossible to scout it by sacking only one mon. With EBall you might assume special set, but it can be a lure, specs, mix or trwp. V-create is present in all sets, which might prompt you to switch in your bulky water, but then it could use tbolt or bstrike which are present in many other sets as well. Its sheer unpredicability and speed+bulk that requires you to sack too much mons do beat it, and by then your team has already been blown big holes into, makes it too fucking aids on teambuilding.
The major problem with Victini is that without Slowbro, there really isn't anything that has the combination of bulk, longevity and offensive presence to switch in and threaten out Tini consistently throughout the match. Alomomola comes close but its weak offensive presence makes it a setup bait for many sweepers that Tini can U-turn out to, although Scald and Knock Off helps. Aerodactyl has offensive presence and bulk as well as a strong Pursuit, but it has been shown that the Tini player can play around that as well, as evident in RowDog's post. Dugtrio perhaps revenge kill Victini most consistently, but it is hard to fit in teams due to its fraility and something has to die to bring it in.
Hey guys, defensive Diancie doesn't do too badly vs BandTini(Using my personal EV spread - gives it even Def/SpD):
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Diancie: 112-132 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Diancie Diamond Storm vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 324-384 (95 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
But still, I much prefer the UU meta without the concern of having to counter Victini. There may be a few sets to look out for, but 90% of them (at least) run Band V-create for pure damage. And like Mahmudkipz mentioned, one of the best walls against Victini is gone now.
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Diancie: 112-132 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Diancie Diamond Storm vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 324-384 (95 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
But still, I much prefer the UU meta without the concern of having to counter Victini. There may be a few sets to look out for, but 90% of them (at least) run Band V-create for pure damage. And like Mahmudkipz mentioned, one of the best walls against Victini is gone now.
If you have to run something sub-par like Diancie to counter Tini, that's a clear sign of overcentralizing the meta. Not only that, but with Slowbro gone, the best bulky waters (*cough* bolt strike *cough*) are lol Milotic and Suicune, and even then:
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 254-300 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
A Victini-less UU, less reliant on always preparing for it and using things like Diancie, is closer to a "balanced meta".
I think people are really overstating the diversity of the Victini you see on the ladder. Yes there is a threat of the Victini being TR, Mixed Special, etc, but it a player's job to predict and make educated judgments. Look at the team composition of the other 5 members. Are the attackers all special? Then the Victini is (most likely) a physical attacker. The team lacks a scarfer and is generally slow? Victini is scarfed. Obviously these aren't hard rules but that's the general idea.
There is also Victini itself. Players should be doing things like calcing u-turn, seeing WHEN it U-turns, as well as how as the player uses it (Hmm, my opponent keeps trying to double switch Victini into my Rhyperior. I wonder what's up?). It really is a manageable thing.
There is also Victini itself. Players should be doing things like calcing u-turn, seeing WHEN it U-turns, as well as how as the player uses it (Hmm, my opponent keeps trying to double switch Victini into my Rhyperior. I wonder what's up?). It really is a manageable thing.
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victini smeargle and rayquaza are the only pokemon that learn vcreate. would it bee possible to ban vcreate with smeargle gone? i dont think tini would be broken w/out v create and we could test it aswell. this is not a complex ban, it is a simple ban of a move, just like banning a pokemon or an item(like a mega stone). it would be interesting to hear people's thoughts. this would of course only be necessary if victini was found to be borked in the retest.
Smeargles banned, and rayquaza sure isnt dropping to UU within the next milennium. So, no just banning VCreate is a waste.
Has anybody else seen an influx of Sharpedo lately? I havent seen Aqua Jet, but Sharpedo will get the job done (sometimes)
Edit:job of checking Victini i mean...
ddi you read my post, i said if victini was found to be broken, then we could restest victini without v create. can you read?
my last sentence :"this would of course only be necessary if victini was found to be borked in the retest."
my refernece to smeargle was how the banning of vcreate would not affect any other pokemon and therefore there is less reason no to do it
Scrafty has already answered this question:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-bl-next-victini.3516640/page-13#post-5762546
Basically it is a no, as complex bans are more a last resort than anything and it is not meant to exactly single out a Pokemon and favor it if going by precedent. They are aimed to affect play styles as we have seen with the recent BP nerfs in OU, as well as the precedent of weather in OU last gen, not necessarily a ban that would directly affect a single mon. Besides as a move it is questionable to suspect it given that unlike say Scald or Knock off you cannot exactly spam V-Create without consequences, there are drawbacks which are very easily taken advantage of.
Whereas, the user itself is more questionable for suspect given the stats+typing (only STAB user)+move pool that tends to round Victini off and even potentially abuse it, e.g. Weakness Policy TR Tini. Frankly, it isn't even V-create that is proving problematic with Victini but the coverage moves he gained from the events that round him out so well, e.g. Blue Flare and Bolt strike, which had helped to make both physical and special variants more viable in turn more threatening.
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Don't ban V-create. It's not inherently broken and it would only overcomplicate things.
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Banning V-Create isn't actually a complex ban, it's just banning a move like we do with Double Team or Swagger.
And I do believe that V-Create is the most broken part about Victini. Sure it has a lot of coverage options, but the main reason they work so well is because the opponent is already limited to physically bulky V-Create resists when they want to check Victini. Then it's easy to pick off those few checks with coverage moves. But if you ban V-Create only, that opens up checks, pokemon that can purely bulk their way through Victini without necessarily needing to be water/dragon/rock type or using physically frailer resists that can take its special variants more easily, making it harder for Victini to cover all those new checks.
As an example (pls don't pick on its viability, it was just the first all-around bulky pokemon that came to my head):
252 Atk Life Orb Victini Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 153-183 (40.9 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 143-169 (38.2 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Specially defensive P2 wouldn't have really stood a chance against V-Create though.
No those two moves are terrible comparisons because they are banned on the grounds of being uncompetitive for encouraging an excessive amount of luck (one of which is under the blanket ban for evasion), whereas there is no luck involved in using V-Create. The moves were never banned because they were too powerful, simply that they go against the idea of competition being strived for due to the reliance on luck.
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They are banned on very different grounds, just because a move was banned doesn't mean the same will apply equally to all (one of which is banned due to a clause), they need a much stronger justification so to speak which V-Create does not exactly have aside from power. They are moves yes but that is as far as they go in terms of comparison as it is apples and oranges. Nor are these bans created to bias a single pokemon. The context for a V-Create ban is just too different to warrant the same treatment.
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I'm not really interested in seeing V-Create banned (primarily because I just don't think Victini even fully intact is unhealthy in the metagame) but in the beta stages of the tier there was very real discussion about banning Knock Off so it's not completely unprecedented to discuss banning a move for being overpowered (as opposed to being uncompetitive like the less comparable Double Team and Swagger)
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