NU Stage 5 - Suspect Discussion

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WhiteDMist

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I'm not saying don't ban him, he's obviously too good. I see what your point is, but I'm really just here to learn, I got like ten posts or something. I was inquiring about what he meant by that, I don't know things like (he ohko's every taunter in the meta game). I can only work with my experience playing online against him, which admittedly hasn't been too brutal at all. After I got sick of him beating my ass, I just started to use scrappy kangaskhan to deal with him, which works for me, but no I don't have the calculation to back up that claim.
If you don't want me to participate, then I am okay with that. But this forum has been incredibly unwelcoming to me as a new member, I'm really quite shocked as the people on the servers seemed pretty nice.
If you are playing on the PO server, then you must realize that they use a different tiering system than we do. Since Pokemon Showdown is now Smogon's official simulator, it would probably be better if you are more familiar with the NU metagame on that server first. And apologies if we do not seem very friendly. However, I recall you saying that I do not know how to use Zangoose properly, when it really wasn't appropriate seeing as you have never battled me to my knowledge. Also no one, not even I, have claimed that Zangoose wasn't GOOD. It's more of a discussion of whether it is BROKEN, which some feel it is and others disagree.

In addition to what I already mentioned about Zangoose, I should also mention that it is incredibly difficult to find an opportunity to use Swords Dance. It really can only do so against a support Pokemon or a predicted/Choice locked Ghost-type move (I know there are other things, but these are the safest). Support Pokemon are still rather dangerous if you aren't Toxiced already, but if you are, their status moves are a perfect switch in.
 
Of the mentioned pokemon, the only one that stands out to me as ban worthy is Zangoose. That coverage with that power is just too much. I run a stall team, and after it sets up, the only way I can beat it (if it is controlled competently) is if I sack a pokemon and manage to bring in my golem at full HP. With prior damage on Golem, the Zangoose stands a good chance of sweeping my team.

The others range from moderately threatening (golurk) to absolutely nonthreatening (everything else).

As a note, Amoongus could be a thorn in my side if I didn't carry two heal bells, sap sipper, a trick scarf, and liquid ooze in my team, all of which serve to either shut down, or at least annoy, the demon mushroom. It might be worth the ban, but I personally feel more threatened by Vileplume (because aromatherapy).
 

Django

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In addition to what I already mentioned about Zangoose, I should also mention that it is incredibly difficult to find an opportunity to use Swords Dance. It really can only do so against a support Pokemon or a predicted/Choice locked Ghost-type move (I know there are other things, but these are the safest). Support Pokemon are still rather dangerous if you aren't Toxiced already, but if you are, their status moves are a perfect switch in.
I agree with this, it is incredibly hard to set up Swords Dance with Zangoose, but in my experience it doesn't need Swords Dance. It can normally just spam Facade, and then if a Rock / Steel type comes in it will outspeed and be able to use Close Combat, and not many Pokemon in the tier can stand up to Facade + Close Combat (Defensive Carracosta can, but DTC hates that!). It honestly doesn't need Swords Dance to completely run through most opposing teams. The only real reason Swords Dance should be used is if you require Zangoose to be a stallbreaker, and be able to break through Alomomola and the like. Stall is pretty much non-existant at the moment though.
 

erisia

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The only one of these Pokemon that deserves anywhere near suspect status in my book is Amoonguss, and it's almost certainly leaving the tier in two months anyways. Like Jynx, it abuses Sleep moves, but in a different way; instead of hitting a check as they try to switch in, Amoonguss just switches in to tank something and Spores afterwards to disrupt teams. Substitute + Spore is also great since you don't risk Sporing something you don't want to (Zangoose!), and it compensates for Amoonguss' piss poor Speed.

While Spore is annoying, especially with Magmortar leaving the tier, Amoonguss is just an above-average defensive Pokemon otherwise. It's not going to wall teams to infinity and beyond, so long as you pack a decent Fire / Flying / Psychic move somewhere, and that's not hard with greats like Emboar, Braviary and Musharna floating around. It's certainly not going to be sweeping any time soon (lol). And it doesn't provide a lot of team support other than just tanking attacks.

It's definitely a good Pokemon, and teams need to have a way of dealing with it somehow, but I really don't think it's broken when it's so passive in general, and there are so many good responses to it once it's fired off a Spore.

Cinccino gets wasted by Absol and Skuntank, and actually gets walled by a fair few things in the tier when it runs U-turn (Misdreavus, Musharna, Probopass, Regirock). Not to mention it can't really switch into anything other than Shadow Balls. Zangoose is better but just pack something fast on your team that can take a Quick Attack (Haunter!) and it's pretty much a non-issue. While it has good coverage with four moves, you can wear it down pretty well with Regenerator cores, Protect users, and through clever switching. I can't say I've ever had any problems with either of these two.
 

Django

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Going to be annoying and play devils advocate here: both Absol and Skuntank cannot switch into Cinccino at all, meaning they have to get in after a kill to revenge kill Cinccino. Even then, they have to decide between Pursuit and Sucker Punch, which against any good player really is a 50/50. Secondly, its not walled at all by Musharna or Regirock:

252Atk Choice Band Cinccino (Neutral) Tail Slap vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Musharna (+Def): 45% - 55% (200 - 240 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 6% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.

With Stealth Rock thats nearly a guaranteed 2HKO.

252Atk Choice Band Cinccino (Neutral) Bullet Seed vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Sturdy Regirock (+Def): 41% - 49% (150 - 180 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

Bear in mind this is against Max / Max Regirock, which in itself is pretty terrible. Sure it can take Tail Slap easy enough, and this is the only problem I have with Cinccino being a suspect, it is forced to predict every turn it is in. Tail Slap is not the easiest move in the world to spam, with so many dangerous resists / immunities running around, but it certainly gets the coverage to deal with those.

Probopass and Bastiodon (to an extent Misdreavus) are the most reliable ways to deal with Cinccino (hell even Klang...) but mainly struggle with U-Turn, which most Cinccino should be using early game anyway. Provided the Cinccino team has either Spikes or a Pokemon efficient at beating Steel-types (not hard) then these Pokemon have a very hard time keeping up with the pace the opposing team sets with Cinccino.

Don't take this as my opinion on Cinccino, I just wanted to point these things out.
 

erisia

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I'll concede Musharna, but If CB Cinccino uses Bullet Seed to hit Regirock, it's asking for practically any resist to switch into it afterwards. So you might take a chunk out of Regirock IF you predict correctly, but you're going to have to switch out afterwards unless you want to give Emboar / Braviary / Exeggutor / whatever a free attack to fire off. The pay off isn't great even IF Cinccino predicts correctly, and if it uses Bullet Seed and Regirock doesn't come in, Cinccino's going to die. Same deal with Rock Blast. Forcing CB Cinccino to use its coverage moves makes it far easier to deal with / play around.
 
Ok, so I have my opinions about these big guys. Cincy, golurk, alomomola, swoobat should all stay NU, no doubt about this. Cincy is ruined by priority (obviously), golurk is meh it hits hard but its slow as dirt and weak to a bunch of common types. Momo is bulky as fuck and regen and wish are annoying, but it has no way of breaking anything that has sub, except the almighty sub bonsly. And batman is beaten by anything named Bane (skuntank comes to mind)

Zangoose is what I have to cry foul on. With his speed, power, priority, and coverage, zangoose is an excellent pokemon, and I think it should be banned. Strong priority can be a bother, but it isnt troubled as much as cincy because it has its own priority.

Other big threats like eggy should also get more discussion, imo. Eggy has completely wrecked many a team with proper hazards support, and it has been stronger than any of the pokes that have been mentioned. Or at least in my experiance.
 
(Un)fortunately my flashcard broke as B2/W2 were released, so I didn't have to deal with this mess all that much. I have been hopping onto Showdown every now and then (assuming it wasn't down) and trying out some new stuff and HOLY TITSACKS the amount of Amoonguss/Trollomola cores I have seen were ridiculous. That shit is annoying and Amoonguss should consider packing its stuff up right now. Trollomola is manageable as long as you can Toxic it and get behind a Sub, but freaking Amoonguss man...makes me want to claw my face out.

As for Golurk I'm kind of on edge about. Leaning more towards wanting it to leave though since it's pretty damn powerful. I've seen people argue that it shouldn't leave because it is slow, but they apparently never thought of using Rock Polish. Plus in a tier where hazards are kind of a big thing Golurk is an awesome, powerful spin blocker who can scare out a lot of popular NU spinners
 
Out of the mentioned Pokemon, Zangoose is the only that I believe is ban worthy. He has wonderful coverage, STAB priority, and is really powerful. Whenever I faced it, it would nearly sweep my team! The only way I could ever beat it is pray they don't use Quick Attack and kill with priority. Okay, Zangoose does have to race against the clock once he's poisoned, but he can still cause massive damage regardless. He is frail, but has Quick Attack to kill faster pokes. I say Zangoose should be banned.

Amoonguss is annoying, but can be dealt with. I've found Natu to be really good at checking the shroom. Send in Natu on a predicted Spore and bounce it right back! Either way, once something is asleep, Amoonguss is a lot easier to deal with, imo, because of Sleep Cause. Amoonguss will still most likely move up to OU due to its high usage their.

Exeggutor, Cinccino, and Golurk are in the same boat as Amoonguss. They are annoying, but not impossible to beat.
 
Out of the mentioned Pokemon, Zangoose is the only that I believe is ban worthy. He has wonderful coverage, STAB priority, and is really powerful. Whenever I faced it, it would nearly sweep my team! The only way I could ever beat it is pray they don't use Quick Attack and kill with priority. Okay, Zangoose does have to race against the clock once he's poisoned, but he can still cause massive damage regardless. He is frail, but has Quick Attack to kill faster pokes. I say Zangoose should be banned.
There's only one way to stop Zangoose, and that's to get a different major status on it before its Toxic Orb activates. Pray it comes in one of your walls, pray that wall has Thunder Wave, and pray that the Zangoose doesn't use Protect.
 
Zangoose isn't invincible: Haunter outspeeds and brings it down with Sludge Bomb, Gurdurr can switch in and KO with Mach Punch, Pokemon such as tank carracosta can cheerfully tank a close combat and retaliate and zangoose's weakened Defense with STAB moves, bulkier scarfers such as Rotom-S can tank a quick attack and KO again with their STAB moves, the list goes on. Basically just hit Zangoose as soon as it comes in, don't give it free turns, and you should be OK. It's an excellent Pokemon, but its frailty and frankly not enough Speed don't make it broken in my opinion
 

breh

強いだね
max/max carracosta stops zangoose; I realize zangoose is really good but I don't feel it to be banworthy. In general, I don't feel anything is overwhelmingly banworthy (though I do feel that Amoonguss should just be kind of kicked to OU since it's pretty clear that it's OU worthy, given its +200 something jump in OU; well, we'll see what happens when Gothitelle gets here lol)
 
Hello!

My humble opinion about some suspects pokemon!

Cincinno: Not a true problem. Entry hazard, priority move (even if I don't use that to counter Cincinno) or Pokemon with Sturdy (Hi Sawk!) are his worst nightmare.

Golurk: When I saw him "falling" in NU and when I was reading comment about him, I was worried about him... ultimately for nothing. His low speed and his ground type prevent him of being "broken".

Zangoose: The only pokemon that I hate to fight against. Even with priority move (the reason why I had in past a Gurdurr in my team...), he is a threat. I would be happy to see him gone of NU...

Amoonguss: I'm not sure about this one. It seems a threat for some team, but I don't have any problem against him.

Alomomola: Taunt or anything immune to Toxic is great against him.
 

jake

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Cincinno: Not a true problem. Entry hazard, priority move (even if I don't use that to counter Cincinno) or Pokemon with Sturdy (Hi Sawk!) are his worst nightmare.
Tail Slap breaks through Sturdy and has a high chance to OHKO Sawk.
 
I'm going to go ahead and post this as a general message to the trainers of NU:

If you have little experience with our metagame, or have not posted often in the forum, do not introduce yourselves to the players of NU by posting in this thread.
Cincinno: Not a true problem. Entry hazard, priority move (even if I don't use that to counter Cincinno) or Pokemon with Sturdy (Hi Sawk!) are his worst nightmare.
but they apparently never thought of using Rock Polish.
After I got sick of him beating my ass, I just started to use scrappy kangaskhan to deal with him, which works for me, but no I don't have the calculation to back up that claim.
I don't want to sound rude, but posts like this do not add to this discussion; furthermore, a lot of you are making your NU posting debut by making it extremely obvious to us that you have no idea what you're talking about, which makes us all feel a little more awkward than we should.

Okay, so I've made my super long post about how I feel about Amoonguss, Golurk, Alomomola, and Cinccino, so now I'd like to join in on the Zangoose discussion. Honestly, I don't think I've seen enough of him for my thoughts on him to be that relevant, but I think he is probably the most dangerous of all the current offensive Pokemon in NU. Swords Dance makes him stupidly powerful, and the 4-attacks set has the ability to easily clean weakened teams. As already stated, he is on a timer and priority does wear him down quite a bit (don't forget entry hazards), but are all those negative factors enough to warrant him as "not broken"? I'm still on the fence about this one, and would love to keep seeing what you guys have to say about it.
 

canno

formerly The Reptile
The only pokemon I have enough experience with to talk about imo is Zangoose, so I will talk strictly about Zangoose. I'm also not that great, so take these comments with a grain of salt.

I feel like Zangoose has a severe case of 4MSS. No matter what set you run, you will always be walled by something. You have to choose between discarding Sword Dance, Night Slash, or Quick Attack (all Zangoose should have Close Combat imo). Without SD, you can't sweep until everything is weakened, as +1 Zangoose can't break through walls. Without Night Slash, you need to run something like Skuntank or Absol to remove Ghost-types for you. Without Quick Attack, anything above 95 speed or has decently strong priority completely destroys him thanks to his paper-thin defenses. Not only that, but he is under a timer thanks to the Toxic Orb. Personally, I use the set without SD as a late-game cleaner, but that has issues since a +1 Quick Attack is still pretty weak, so threats like Gurdurr and Samurott can take a Quick Attack and Aqua Jet/Mach Punch you into oblivion. Overall, Zangoose is a huge threat, but it has enough issues to make it banworthy imo.
 
I feel like Zangoose has a severe case of 4MSS. No matter what set you run, you will always be walled by something. You have to choose between discarding Sword Dance, Night Slash, or Quick Attack (all Zangoose should have Close Combat imo). Without SD, you can't sweep until everything is weakened, as +1 Zangoose can't break through walls. Without Night Slash, you need to run something like Skuntank or Absol to remove Ghost-types for you. Without Quick Attack, anything above 95 speed or has decently strong priority completely destroys him thanks to his paper-thin defenses. Not only that, but he is under a timer thanks to the Toxic Orb. Personally, I use the set without SD as a late-game cleaner, but that has issues since a +1 Quick Attack is still pretty weak, so threats like Gurdurr and Samurott can take a Quick Attack and Aqua Jet/Mach Punch you into oblivion. Overall, Zangoose is a huge threat, but it has enough issues to make it banworthy imo.
Yes, Zangoose really wishes it had five move slots. The problem, though, is that if your opponent has a Zangoose, you don't know which of those three moves it's missing. Hmm, I think I can wall it with this defensive mon...oh, but it might have Swords Dance. Hey, I have a Misdreavus...no, wait, it might Night Slash/Shadow Claw me. Let's revenge it with Swellow! Oops, Quick Attack.

Until you see what moves Zangoose is running, you pretty much have to treat its move set as SD/Facade/CC/Quick/Ghost coverage, even though you know it can't have all five of those moves, because what if it does have that move that beats me, and by the time you find out it doesn't it's already taken out one or two of your mons. As I said in my first post: there is nothing in the tier that can safely come in on Zangoose, assuming Stealth Rock is down - and even on the off chance that it isn't, the list of mons is still tiny and limited to once-only full health checks.
 
OK time to post why I think Golurk should be suspect:

Well first of all it has amazing coverage and a very deep movepool coming off of Base 124 Attack. Though he doesn't need all of that coverage, since EQ smashes anything that doesn't resist / is immune to it. He has an iron fist boosted Shadow Punch, which isn't amazing powerful but serves its purpose of hitting levitators hard. Golurk also possesses a large amount of coverage options. Though Ice Punch + A fighting move is all we need.

Golurk also comes with 2 impressive abilities: Iron Fist and No Guard. Both are viable, though No Guard is generally just used to go for hax. But just the fact that Golurk has that option(and can abuse Stone Miss with it). And Iron Fist gives Golurk a huge boost because he has access to a lot of punching moves.

Also I've seen a lot of people comparing Golurk to Emboar, and although tey do share a lot of similarities(slow, incredibly powerful, great STABs, decent bulk) I believe that Golurk is more worthy of being a suspect for one reason: better defensive typing. Golurk does have 5 (iirc) weaknesses but also has 3 immunities to switch in on, none of which are rare types in NU. Normal is a very common attacking move, and electric usage has decreased because of the free turns it gives to Golurk. Emboar has a grand total of 0 immunities so he really can't come in on much.

One final point that I think pushes Golurk near the edge: Ghost-typing. Golurk gave offensive teams an answer to every spinner (except lolwartortle) so they no longer need to use Misdreavus. The ability to beat all the common spinners with ease to go a long with everything else that Golurk has going for it makes it suspect worthy.


So basically we have a Strong, bulky, spin-blocking Pokemon with Perfect coverage, amazing Dual STABs and great abilities. Its brokenness is debatable but I think it is at least deserving of a vote to decide it.
 

Django

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Golurk does have an amazing number of qualities, but despite this I don't think it should be suspected. The main reason for this is that for Golurk to be anywhere near powerful enough, it is forced to run Choice Band. This means that everytime it wants to use a move, it has a tough decision to make. Lets say you are facing a 60% Amoonguss, and the opponent has a Braviary and Carracosta waiting. Its got a tough 50/50 prediction to make between Earthquake and Ice Punch, and whichever way it goes the opponent will be able to grab the momentum the next turn (provided they sacrifice Amoonguss). This is just one example, but there are many more similar situations, especially when you consider the number of top tier Pokemon immune to one or both of Golurks STAB moves: Braviary, Swellow, Zangoose, Cinccino, Rotom, Haunter, Misdreavus, Miltank, Altaria, Charizard, the list goes on. I peronsally hate risking giving any of these guys a free switch in, as they can turn a game on its head in a single turn.

Unfortunately, the power of Golurk somewhat relates to the ability of the user to predict. Its not similar to Emboar in that it cannot spam its STAB moves with anywhere near the same regularity, and relies much more on its coverage moves. Furthermore, it is handily beaten by the #5 Pokemon in NU, Alomomola. Certainly a top tier threat, but not broken in my opinion.
 

erisia

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While Golurk is certainly a cut above other bulky attackers in terms of coverage and power (comparisons to Torterra, and its sharp drop in usage, spring to mind), I don't think it's broken, and I have to disagree with a few of your points, Raseri.

Because of Golurk's low Speed and tendency to use a Choice Band, it has a harder time utilising this coverage than most, as it's usually only going to have the opportunity to fire off one attack before switching. Say Golurk uses Earthquake and Specs Altaria, LO Braviary, or Haunter switches into it. Even when running a Life Orb, it's not going to have a chance to hit them with Ice / Shadow Punch before they OHKO it with their STAB attacks. CB Shadow Punch is just begging for Zangoose, Cinccino, Swellow, or Braviary to switch in, while Ice Punch lets Emboar of all things come in. All of these Pokemon can seize momentum from Golurk due to their higher Speed, so while Golurk has excellent power and coverage, it has to predict correctly to be useful at all, which helps keep it in check in my opinion.

Furthermore, Golurk can be trapped and killed by Skuntank and Absol, which is a drawback that similar bulky offense Pokemon, such as Emboar and Torterra, don't have. They can only really switch into Shadow Punch, but if it's coming from the CB set, then a full-health Skuntank or Absol can completely checkmate Golurk. This makes it somewhat more manageable, especially considering that everyone and their mother seems to be using Absol to deal with Cinccino at the moment.

In regards to its spin-blocking ability, with Cryogonal gone, Rapid Spinners are pretty bad in general now, so I think the metagame is shifting away from it for reasons other than Golurk's inclusion. People are starting to realise that they best way of dealing with hazards is to maintain offensive momentum, rather than relying on defensive pokemon that give the opponent far too many opportunities to take control.

The defining aspect of brokenness in a Pokemon, in my ability, is the lack of suitable responses to it. Jynx got banned from NU because it could 2HKO almost everything in the tier, outsped most of it, and could neutralise anything it couldn't beat with Lovely Kiss. Golurk doesn't really follow these standards, as it's far too easy to revenge kill in comparison, and it depends on prediction to secure kills much more than stuff like Emboar, Altaria, and Braviary, due to the large amount of immunities to its STAB attacks. Sure, Golurk has power, but it struggles to capitalise on it enough to be considered "brokenly" powerful.
 

Dell

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Alrighty, time for my say of what I feel about my take of the suspect discussion. (Warning: Long read, so if you don't have the patience, feel free to skip my post)

#1. Amoonguss: Lets face it. The metagame has underwent drastic changes, and with the improvement of Amoonguss and other threats on the way, it's the most we could espect. With Regenerator, everyone forsees how more difficult it has become for the job of removing it, so that certain Physical threats can potentially create a path to break through the opponent's team. One of the more frustrating paths that one may undergo if cards are not played correctly, is that even if it doesn't manage to KO something, it can easily incapacitate a certain Pokemon with the use of Spore. If one is in a situation where that can't be prevented, the best way of overcoming this is foddering the least important member of the team. This is why many good standard NU teams are expected to have answers of this Pokemon, offensively or defensively. I do believe that in top level play, Amoonguss still has some competition of Tangela, who sports much better Physical bulk, and access to Leach Seed, which is am amazing way to deal with switch-ins that may attempt to spell doom for Amoonguss with the help of Substitute, such as Haunter, Gardevoir, Klang, Driftblim, and many others. Many of which are common and useful within their own rights. Unlike Tangela, however, Amoonguss has also incapacated one of the key weapons of passive damage, which falls under the use of Toxic Spikes, meaning that stall teams are rather less effective than before, and with the addition of Regenerator, many could argue that it would become the worst nightmare for teams that focus on stall. All of this would easily explain why the metagame is shift down on the focus of dealing with Amoonguss. Amoonguss, like any other, is now without his flaws. As stated previously, many teams are expected to have answers of it, and such a way, one may find it relatively easily to apply a lot of pressure towards it, as offensive teams have a variety of ways of wearing it down with sheer power or just being setup bait from the mentioned Substitute users. This, and sporting the fact that Amoonguss is more often than not forced out in situations like this, meaning that it will be forced to essentially give the opponent free turns for the opponent to potentially obilerate Amoonguss's team. As for it's moveset, it would be quite a blessing if it got Leech Seed, like Tangela, but aside, it still carries a lot of what's important, defensively. As I'd like to point out, while some people typically see Clear Smog as a godsend on Amoonguss, I disagree, and as move as people may know why, I dislike the move for Amoonguss. Not only would I particularly understand why people would sacriface the 4th move for something as abysmal as such, he has much better options, as Clear Smog will not help Amoonguss against his biggest weakness, Substitute. Aside from that, in conclusion, I do believe that it's a very centralizing threat that any team should structure answers for. Considering that it is completely possible without killing much (or any) form of synergy, I do not agree that Amoonguss should receive the ban.

#2. Alomomola: Alomomola, with Amoonguss, have heavily defined the essence of defensive team synergy as a way to keep virtually every hard hitting Physical attack at bay. While it is effective at its job, they both function with essentially the same problems, such as not hitting hard enough to avoid being setup bait. Given that reasoning, Alomomola falls under the same category as Amoonguss, just with a different typing and a definitely buffed usage of Wish, giving the Regenerator core a variety of opportunities to support their teamates. While nearly all Physical attackers struggle to break through the Regenerator core without a boost within Swords Dance or such, there are still many effective ways to defeating them. Most reasonably strong Special attackers with a Super Effective move under their belt is one of the easiest ways to go, and lots of threats that carry a strong impact with the usage of Substitute will work in their ways as well. Aside from such, they perform virtually the same job, with provided synergy, and as such, many standard teams can effectively play around them with proper plays and threats. With that being said, Alomomola, like Amoonguss, does not quite deserve a banning.

#3. Cincinno: Ah, Cincinno. When its ability was introduced, it was very likely one of the most overated threats in the metagame. After high level players discovered that they aren't looking at a Pokemon that is as threatening as originally though, they tend to discover it to being rather underwhelming. Despite this, Cincinno, while a mild censation of centralization, is one of those Pokemon whose effectiveness determines the skill level of the player, as it takes a reasonable amount of support for it to actually be effective. With Skill Link, everything gets a very attractive Base Power of 125, meaning that it can be quite difficult to consistently switch in and tank whatever it may be doing. This is why a good Cincinno player and the opponent, requires a supplemental amount of prediction to determine which will come out more favorable. While it does have the power to 2HKO a large number of threats, it is seldom of hope of its survivability, meaning that it will have trouble lasting throughout the match, due to the widespread of entry hazards, which happens to showcase a much more common database, thanks to Golurk being the surpreme spinblocker it is, and Life Orb, which is would generally prefer for consistent power and the ability to switch moves so it won't be as much as a setup fodder as the Choice Items. This creates a detriment, as one of the defining parts of the match that it would like to present itself of is late game, and as so, many offensive teams are expected to have a multitude of ways of revenge killing it effectively, all of which comes in conclusion that I don't feel that Cincinno should receive a ban.

#4. Zangoose: Unfortuately, I have yet to expose myself to Zangoose as of date, but throughout spectations and discussions, I have witnessed enough to determine its power. Many can argue that it's harder to deal with than Cincinno, because theoretically, his counters are much few and far between than Cincinno's. His speed, while considerably lower than Cincinno's, can be a problem when the time matters (such as facing against most Haunter, arguable one of, if not, the biggest answer to it). However, Speed issues can be somewhat managed with his main priority, being Quick Attack. For the most part, Zangoose's attributes and flaws, as stated for the most part of the discussion, fall in the same boat as Cincinno's. They both are very difficult to tank and switch into, but because of their fraility and a rather short spanned playstyle, they are by no means unbeatable. Likewise for Cincinno, Offensive teams generally have many ways of revenge killing with some sort of priority attack themselves, and also likely being able to tank a hit and strike back to a quite unwanted hit, usually bringing it down to its "last legs" or just simply taking it down as it is. Like Cincinno, Swellow, Samurott, and many others, it is a very ideal concept to keep check intact of the battle to avoid getting swept, which can be safely said for just about any decently Balanced or Offensive team under the hands of a skilled player, which is why I agree that it doesn't quite deserve a banning.

#5. Golurk: Golurk's drop from its original tier (RU) meant a lot to what has affected the metagame. Now that Cryogonal has moved up and away from the tier, the tier lacks response of Rapid Spinners being able to deal with Golurk effectively, which makes Rapid Spinning a much harder task to complete, causing Spike-stacking teams to create a godsend impact within the consistent damage of hazards, not to much of which that all added to its extreme hype when it entered the tier. Not only of which poses a problem, but its natural sheer power with the help of Choice Band makes prediction skills a must in order to manage around it effectively, especially considering that it has the offensive movepool to hit just about anything in the tier for neutral damage, and the widespread of entry hazards. With centralization such of which, it's easy to say that Golurk is a fantastic Pokemon in NU. However, as much as it kills to sound like a broken record, Golurk isn't without flaws. First off, its most common set is Choice Band, and not only locking yourself to a move can kill momentum for you, Golurk's movepool can be taken advantage of rather easily, as locking into EQ gives Flying and Levitating foes a free turn, Shadow Punch giving Normals and Steels, Drain Punch giving Poisons and Ghosts, and filler is usually exploited as well. Because of this, using it effectively is heavily depending on the players skill level, mainly prediction-wise. Another common let down for Golurk is its quite abysmal Speed, meaning that virtually everything with some power with a Super Effective attack can usually hit it very hard, drastically decreasing longevity. Offensive teams should much more often than not easily be able to exploit this as well. Noneoftheless, Golurk has everything it needs to remain as one of the best Pokemon in the tier, however, I don't think it should leave the tier, as stated for the rest.

There are a bit more Pokemon I can see in the suspect thread, such as Emboar, Braviary, Ninjask, and maybe Swoobat, though they are probably not convinced to the point were most would agree with me, so, tata!
 
I'm not petitioning for Golurk to be banned right now, I think that the way it has taken over the metagame means its worth discussing with the council members on its own. Since there have been a lot of changes to the meta in the past month I feel that the way it is controlling the meta ( a long with other potential suspects) means it is worthy of being put to vote by the senate and side council.
 
Here's my opinion on Ditto, which can be seen here because it's important.

Ditto: Ban

While Ditto is likely used more in the upper tiers anyway...

This Pokemon shits on offensive teams. Knowing full well what the set of some Pokes (Zangoose, for example) is way too good for NU. Impostor Ditto trounces a lot of the metagame without even trying, especially since it will almost always employ a Choice Scarf. Some of the Pokemon that were about to be Suspected? Some of them have Four Moveslot Syndrome and need to be "scouted". Ditto not only scouts the set the opponent is using for the 4MSS-ridden Pokemon in question, but completely counters it and more.

The only effort the Ditto user needs to do is to change its IVs so it can use Hidden Power Fire or Hidden Power Ice. This is still important because Ditto doesn't really care about other Pokemon. The only way someone can be using Ditto incorrectly is if the Impostor ability is used on something like Shuckle, or an otherwise completely-stall Pokemon.
 
Ditto: Ban
I disagree strongly with this. Ditto is something that can very easily be played around and adapted to, and can't just beat everything. I run a mostly offensive team too, and have never had any problems with Ditto.

Here's a quick list of things that beat Ditto:

  • Anything with Substitute. Even if Ditto switches in as you Sub, the very fact that you have a Sub means you can simply select the appropriate move and kill Ditto even though it's faster. And if you can't kill Ditto in one hit, what's it doing switching in?
  • Anything with Quiver Dance/Calm Mind, or Coil/Curse/Bulk Up. If you're setting up defense boosts as well as offense, Ditto won't be able to KO you, and unless you're stupid enough to set up to +6 while they have a Ditto still alive (in which case there's a greater problem than Ditto), you can just keep setting up. Musharna, Gardevoir, Scraggy, Throh, Eelektross, Misdreavus, Serperior, Arbok, Carracosta, Gurdurr...shall I go on?
  • Item-based stat boosters. You have a banded Golurk? That Golurk that just showed up on the opponent's side isn't banded, and therefore a lot easier to switch into. No Life Orb boosts, either. And while Ditto is a wonderful scout, it doesn't reveal your item. Speaking of scouting, Ditto is great at that, but the flipside is that you know exactly what moves it has from the moment it switches in.
  • There are no surprises whatsoever with Ditto, it does one thing and one thing only. It just forces the player to rethink their teambuilding, and possibly rethink their strategy when they see Ditto on the opponent's team. If you have no answer to a +2/+3 Gorebyss, what are you doing setting up with your own?
 

watashi

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I disagree strongly with this. Ditto is something that can very easily be played around and adapted to, and can't just beat everything. I run a mostly offensive team too, and have never had any problems with Ditto.

Here's a quick list of things that beat Ditto:

  • Anything with Substitute. Even if Ditto switches in as you Sub, the very fact that you have a Sub means you can simply select the appropriate move and kill Ditto even though it's faster. And if you can't kill Ditto in one hit, what's it doing switching in?
  • Anything with Quiver Dance/Calm Mind, or Coil/Curse/Bulk Up. If you're setting up defense boosts as well as offense, Ditto won't be able to KO you, and unless you're stupid enough to set up to +6 while they have a Ditto still alive (in which case there's a greater problem than Ditto), you can just keep setting up. Musharna, Gardevoir, Scraggy, Throh, Eelektross, Misdreavus, Serperior, Arbok, Carracosta, Gurdurr...shall I go on?
  • Item-based stat boosters. You have a banded Golurk? That Golurk that just showed up on the opponent's side isn't banded, and therefore a lot easier to switch into. No Life Orb boosts, either. And while Ditto is a wonderful scout, it doesn't reveal your item. Speaking of scouting, Ditto is great at that, but the flipside is that you know exactly what moves it has from the moment it switches in.
  • There are no surprises whatsoever with Ditto, it does one thing and one thing only. It just forces the player to rethink their teambuilding, and possibly rethink their strategy when they see Ditto on the opponent's team. If you have no answer to a +2/+3 Gorebyss, what are you doing setting up with your own?
Adding on to this, Ditto can never 6-0 a team because it's moves only have 5 PP. Anything that doesn't take too much damage from Ditto's attacks can easily stall it out. Articuno is a good example of this because it can tank hits from itself pretty well and limit Ditto to only three attacks thanks to Pressure. Ditto is pretty frail, even with max investment in HP. It also has trouble revenge killing things with priority since being locked into a weak move or Sucker Punch is never a good thing.
 
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