1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

NU Stage 6 - Braviary Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Zebraiken, Nov 3, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken seize the day
    is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnus
    NU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,161
    Hey there.

    This thread's primary purpose to discuss the potential suspects of this round. Everyone is welcome to participate in discussion and bring up potential suspects, as well as debate whether or not they are broken. Senate members and potential rotating council members are expected to post and participate in discussion. Examples of things that should be talked about in this thread: your experience with said threat (using it and facing it), what beats said threat, your opinion of its effect on the metagame (whether positive or negative), etc.

    Rotating council members will be selected differently this round. Anyone who wishes to partake in this vote and earn a vote towards a TC badge must fill out the application here and PM it to me. I will then share it with the Django / Raseri and we will decide who has qualified to vote.

    This thread will be closed in about a week-ish or when the discussion dies down, whichever happens first. At that point in time, the NU Senate will decide what will be voted on and votes will be sent via PM to myself. Just because something is talked about in this thread does not mean it will be voted on. Remember, you are trying to convince the council members with your posts. Keep it civil! And yes, this is a shameless C/P of the last discussion thread.

    Merry discussing. :)
  2. ium

    ium dein haar riecht gut
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris an Artist Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2012
    Messages:
    794
    [​IMG]

    braviary is obviously going to be suspect this round. whether it is broken or not is up for debate, but it really does have multiple good sets.

    the thing that is really annoying is that choice band and substitute + bulk up play differently and thus have different checks at polar opposite ends. that just makes it much more troublesome to face because you may be switching in something expecting it to tank a hit only to have braviary set up a substitute or +1 on you.

    choice band braviary isn't broken in its own right, but it technically has no true counters which makes it very potent. substitute + bulk up braviary in conjunction with other possible sets is what possibly put braviary over the top here. aside from beating weak attackers and making stall near impossible, it has the potential to even set up on rock-types which means that it is truly hard to keep up with unless you maintain offensive pressure against the opponent early on.

    for now i'm personally leaning towards not broken because choice band braviary has the same checks as other bird-types do while substitute + bulk up braviary is fairly manageable. sub + bu braviary's presence doesn't really necessitate teams to run anything abnormally specific. the electric-types in the tier are fairly good (some being bulky) while running toxic on probopass or regirock isn't necessarily the worst thing in the world.

    there is nothing else that really stands out as a potential suspect aside from ludicolo, but from my experiences using and facing it, it is not terribly bad. it is fairly susceptible to so many faster things pre-rain dance and even full health amoonguss can tank a hit and retaliate if it really comes down to that. the presence of many priority users in the tier, such as skuntank, keep ludicolo nicely in check. besides, checking ludicolo means you are checking the plethora of other rain sweepers in the tier which doesn't necessarily make it an oddball threat anyway.

    edit: lmao did i really type "bird-types" kacaw
  3. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2011
    Messages:
    1,080
    I agree with ium that Braviary will be a definite suspect for this round, so I will post about it in detail. KACAW

    [​IMG]

    Braviary in general

    With its somewhat recently discovered SubBulk Up set playing alongside its standard Choice sets Braviary comes off as one of the most threatening Pokemon in NU. Not only do you have to play the mindgame of weather Braviary will Brave Bird/Return, U-turn, or Superpower but now you can't be too careless against it by sending out certain Pokemon. Bringing out your Alomomola or Metang to into its attacks expecting to tank them and rack on Brave Bird recoil and Stealth Rock damage could turn for the worst as Braviary goes for a Substitute or Bulk Up and sets up all over your face. However Braviary faces a major problem in that every good team prepares for Normal- and Flying-type Pokemon already and while it does have access to Superpower to relieve this problem it is still a constant guessing game as to what move Braviary should go for. If it guess incorrectly it will take unnecessary recoil from Brave Bird, use Return and give a Ghost-type a free turn, or force its Atk and Def to drop a stage by using Superpower. Regardless of the situation, if the Braviary player guesses wrong its paying the price by being forced to switch out and take Stealth Rock damage every time it wants to come in. While Braviary does rely on prediction quite a bit and gets worn down by Stealth Rock, its still an excellent Pokemon that puts a lot of stress against teams and can easily punch holes into them. A properly played Braviary will never disappoint and does whatever its set it supposed to do. A Scarf set will revenge very nicely and a Choice Band set will break apart an opponent's defenses. Although both of these sets work very well a Scarf set doesn't have enough power to go through everything and a Choice Band set lacks the speed to sweep through. This along with what was previously mentioned about perfect prediction needed as its weak to Stealth Rock is what keeps Choice Braviary from being anywhere near broken, in my opinion.

    Braviary and steroids (SubBU)

    However the reason that Braviary is being put up as a suspect is mainly due to its SubBulk Up set. The set is a combination of every positive quality about Braviary; its good Attack, overall bulk, and access to Roost. Its excellent 100/75/75 defenses allow Braviary to juggernaut against most of the tier, including some Rock-type Pokemon after a few Bulk Ups. Some of the most common Rock-type Pokemon in the tier such as Carracosta, Regirock, and Golem can actually have their Stone Edges stalled out thanks to the combination of Substitute and Roost. As these Pokemon will switch into Braviary it will most likely already have +1 Atk and Defense by the time they come in, giving Braviary enough bulk to tank even Golem's Rock Blast that can get past its Substitute. The amount of special bulk that Braviary possesses with its 252 / 240+ spread is phenomenal and to quickly demonstrate it, Braviary is capable of living powerful special attacks such as Life Orb Articuno's Ice Beam, Sun & Solar Power boosted Charizard Fire Blast, and Rain boosted Hydro Pump from Life Orb Ludicolo. To put the icing on the cake, Braviary is more than capable of going mono-attacker as Brave Bird is a powerful STAB move and Flying in general has fantastic neutral coverage on its own. While Stealth Rock is a big problem for Choiced Braviary as a misprediction forces it out, this set doesn't have to worry about it nearly as much since Roost gives Braviary reliable recovery. The main things that in theory should stop this set from going through the metagame are Electric- and Rock-type Pokemon with the Rock/Steels in Probopass and Bastiodon being full stops. This would make it manageable in the metagame on paper, but how do they really work against it in practice?

    On paper all Electric-, Rock-, and Steel-type Pokemon should be able to easily counter this set without any problem. However do they work this way in practice? Remember that a counter actually has to come into Braviary, meaning that by then Braviary will either have a Substitute up or a Bulk Up under its belt. If Regirock and Carracosta come into Braviary and its gotten up a Bulk Up, Braviary has two choices from there: start stalling them out of Stone Edge or get off another Bulk Up. The former takes advantage of Substitute + Roost stall of the puny 8 PP of Stone Edge while Roost provides a secondary benefit of removing Braviary's weakness to the move. The latter option is probably the best option as Braviary after 2 Bulk Ups takes around 50% from an Adamant Max Attack Stone Edge. From there it can easily Roost of the damage and start SubRoost stalling out the opponent's Stone Edges. Golem is tricker as its stronger than both Pokemon and can break Substitutes with Rock Blast but by a cycle of Roosting and Bulk Up can eventually muscle through it and stall it out of Rock Blast's 16 PP. Pokemon such as Probopass actually needs Toxic and Power Gem to be capable of beating Braviary while Electric-type Pokemon such as Rotom-S and Eelektross still take great chunks from +0 Brave Bird and Stealth Rock. (Eel takes a minimum of 40% by coming into Brave Bird with SR up using a 128 HP set; Rotom-S takes a minimum of 54% coming into BB with SR up using a 4 Def set) Even if it is forced out by the powerful Electric-types and has to take Stealth Rock damage, it's more than capable of finding an opening to Roost. All of this is just Braviary acting on its own with the help of Stealth Rock; imagine how much easier Braviary has it with Spikes weakening Probopass, Golem, Regirock, Carracosta, and Ampharos. Garbodor already is a great partner for it as it can lure in Pokemon such as Alomomola that Braviary can easily set up on. No Rock-, Steel-, or Electric-type Pokemon in the tier has reliable recovery to begin with so wearing them down is incredible easy. Even if they are being supported by Wish users like Alomomola and Lickilicky, they are capable of easily being set up on by Braviary as it can use the time they are spending trying to make a Wish and passing it to quickly escalate the Bulk Up chain.

    Example situation

    Let's set an example such as in a match where Braviary has been strutting around and wearing down say an opponent's Regirock constantly by just being there are forcing it to come in. Let's assume that just Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes is up, every time that Regirock switches into Braviary to try to check it it takes 26% right then and there. Since Braviary is capable of forcing out Pokemon just by threatening to set up it can take Stealth Rock damage, set up a Substitute on the switch, and then Roosting off all of the damage after it has lured in Regirock. Without any other sort of damage on Regirock its getting worn down by a remarkable margin after 3 switch ins counting Leftovers. Without any additional support Regirock is very prone to being worn down and can't last enough to match Braviary who has Roost to constantly heal itself. If those teams try to pack a Wish passer to try to keep their Rock-type alive, they just give Braviary some turns to start setting up while they desperately try to heal up their Rock. If a Braviary is facing the opponent's team, the opponent at that point has to either allow their Rock-type to get worn down or go to their Wish user to try and heal up their best check to Braviary. In other words, pick your poison. Go into your Rock-type and get worn down by hazards to the likely point that Braviary can force a set up and break through or try to get your Wish user in there and give Braviary somes free set up opportunities. By attempting to heal your Rock-type Braviary has gotten up a Substitute and a Bulk Up. By the time the said Regirock or whatever Pokemon has come in Braviary can set up a 2nd Bulk Up right on the spot and start a chain that not even a STAB Stone Edge will be able to break. I understand that the whole Wish situation is a little situational as it's assuming that Braviary is constantly out, but hopefully some of my point that I was trying to get across actually did manage to get across. If not I'll try to say it again in short: Rock- and Steel-types are easy to wear down with Spikes as they lack reliable recover and Wish users that would help them for this are easy targets for Braviary to set up on.

    Conclusion

    Overall I don't think Braviary in general is broken as the Choice sets are not as hard to deal with, however its its SubBulk Up set that I think pushes it over the line. I hate that its just one set that I think makes it broken as otherwise Braviary is totally fine in the metagame. SubBU's resilience, amazing bulk, great power, and multiple set up opportunities with little drawback is what I think makes Braviary broken. I would have to go with B for Ban Braviary

    Calcs mentioned (open)
    Braviary vs Elecs:
    • 0Atk Braviary (Neutral) Brave Bird vs 0HP/4Def Leftovers Levitate Rotom-S (Neutral): 29% - 35% (72 - 86 HP)
    • 0Atk Braviary (Neutral) Brave Bird vs 128HP/0Def Leftovers Levitate Eelektross (Neutral): 27% - 32% (93 - 110 HP)

    Rocks vs Braviary:
    • 252Atk Regirock (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers +2 Braviary (Neutral): 47% - 56% (192 - 228 HP)
    • 252Atk Regirock (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers +2 Braviary (Neutral) Roosting: 24% - 28% (98 - 116 HP)
    • 252Atk Golem (+Atk) Rock Blast vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers +2 Braviary (Neutral): 49% - 61% (200 - 248 HP)
    • 252Atk Golem (+Atk) Rock Blast vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers +2 Braviary (Neutral) Roosting: 25% - 31% (104 - 128 HP)
    • 252Atk Carracosta (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers +2 Braviary (Neutral): 50% - 59% (204 - 240 HP)
    • 252Atk Carracosta (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers +2 Braviary (Neutral) Roosting: 25% - 30% (102 - 122 HP)

    EDIT: I also think that Ludicolo is worthy of being a suspect, though I don't necessarily think it should be banned. I'll post about it later.
  4. kniteowl

    kniteowl

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2010
    Messages:
    342
    These threads are always intimidating when I feel like I should give my 2 cents with all these damage calculations and hard facts, I've always playing pokemon using my own experiences and making estimates on how much damage so and so does to so and so. But I'll do my best without them or just make random estimates.

    I'm on the fence with Braviary, personally I wouldn't miss it much if it got banned from the tier, nor would I particularly care for it much if it stayed in the tier.

    But it is my go to pokemon if I have a 6th slot on a NU team that I don't know who I should add to my team, Braviary is almost always my first choice. The Bulk Up Sub roost set has saved my tail multiple times, It would usually be the pokemon I keep until the end game for me to get the win or if I can get it in on a pokemon that can't threaten it.

    Looking at it, it has no true counters besides Probopass with Power Gem & Bastidon with Roar(@EBeast, I don't know if you forgot Bastidon could use that lol), and a lot of decent checks. I personally like Stunfisk with Discharge although it won't break Braviary subs if it roosts losing it's flying type temporarily doing about 14-16%. It will definitely lose it's sub on the second turn and be forced out as every addition sub will be destroyed, any attempt to stall out stunfisk with roost will be punished by a 30% chance of being paralyzed crippling it for the rest of the match, any attempt to attack stunfisk will have a 30% chance to trigger static which would again cripple Braviary.

    Being a electric type resisting Brave bird with decent bulk means Stunfisk will stick around to check Braviary for most of the battle. Unless Braviary ops for Return but that gets walled by ghost types.

    Stunfisk makes a satisfacory check to choice braviary set as well as all of his moves are contact moves meaning he has a 30% chance of being crippled by paralysis as he generally uses U-turn in the early game, you just have to predict that Return/Superpower.

    2 counters and a hard check, although not every team is going to be using them I'd say do not ban

    But if it's the unpredictability of Braviary that worries you similar to Mew then I might favour a ban if you can persuade me but for now I'd say Braviary should be ok for the meta game.
  5. Django

    Django
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,815
    I just want to talk about this example for a bit, and explain how incredibly skewed towards Braviary it is. If you're using Braviary against any sort of decent team and manage to set up both Stealth Rock and Spikes, then later on in the match get Braviary in safely three times, then you need to be tested for performance enhancing drugs. Against a team that has any clue what's going on, the turns taken to set up those hazards will likely lead to Stealth Rock being set up against you, or some dangerous sweeper doing the same. Once this happens, being able to get Braviary in against something it can force out on three seperate occaisions is an incredible feat, especially considering how slow the Bulk Up set is; as long as the opponent doesn't fuck up and leave in something you can set up on, you're not getting a chance to do so. Against a more defensive team then yeah this situation is more likely, but offense has little trouble keeping enough pressure on Braviary so it cannot set up.

    Just wanted to point that out I'll make an actual post later !!
  6. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2011
    Messages:
    1,080
    Yeah it this was a situation against more of a Balance team than an Offense team, since that's one of the most commonly used playing styles in NU. Against a more defensive Balance it being able to get in safely and set up is much more likely. I'm sorry, because when I wrote that I was completely focused on how it does on Balance more than anything. SubBulk Up's performance is not as great against more Offensive teams since they carry faster Pokemon that can hit it hard such as LO Special Samurott and Rotom-S/F, but these teams do usually carry pivots of some sort such as Alomomola, Amoonguss, Lickilicky, or Misdreavus that can give Braviary a chance to set up some Bulk Ups. Even then a full health Braviary can tank a lot of the hits thrown at it and retaliate back. For example Braviary only takes 51-60% from a Life Orb Samurott's Ice Beam and deals more back with Brave Bird; if it got a Bulk Boost from before it can OHKO Samurott after Stealth Rock.

    Braviary's Normal/Flying typing also comes in handy to come in on CB Golurk's STAB Earthquakes and Shadow Punches and get some free turns to boost up. If Braviary gets up a single Bulk Up even Offensive teams will have trouble. They are forced to throw at it their strongest attacks such as Choice Band Stone Edge from Sawk, Choice Band Flare Blitz from Emboar, or Toxic Boost Facade from Zangoose in hopes of taking it and to no avail as a +1 Braviary can take all of these hits if needed and hit back. Sure finding set up opportunities is harder against an Offensive team, but not that much harder and people will not be able to bring out any real Pokemon with that much offensive prowess without risking it taking a hit if Braviary decides to not set up. In most of the situations if Braviary has an opportunity to set up, it will get up +2 before the opponent brings in their heavy hitters, in which at that point Braviary won't have much trouble at all. Rock-type Pokemon are just as much of a problem, however I do not think getting up Stealth Rock and at least a layer of Spikes is that hard against an Offensive team. Pokemon like Golem, Regirock, and Piloswine get them up spectacularly while Garbodor is easily the best Spiker and more than capable of getting Spikes up on threats such as Sawk, Cinccino, and some weaker Scarf users like Rotom formes.
  7. MMF

    MMF Give me the strength to part this sea

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2010
    Messages:
    538
    Small post incoming since busy MMF!

    I think we're missing the point with Braviary. We can say all we want that Sub BU can't beat offensive teams which is all fine and dandy, but we also have to keep in mind that it basically makes stall and balance teams unviable. Now granted there are ways to beat Braviary on these teams (Perish song in the case of last mon, Power Gem+Toxic Probo) but this could mean your team is that much weaker to some other threat because you /had/ to put Probo on your team. Braviary puts too much of a strain on playstyles in NU imo and it kinda makes the tier just straight offense. I think having Braviary banned and stall being more viable would make the tier more interesting and would definitely bring an increase in diversity while teambuilding.

    Just my two cents.
  8. Wobble

    Wobble

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2012
    Messages:
    73
    If you aren't adjusting your team for the biggest threats in the tier it isn't going to do well. Braviary has S viability in this metagame, of course it needs to be specifically dealt with, but that goes for any other top tier mon like Ludicolo as well.

    The biggest problem I have with the post is that the SubBU Braviary set is fairly new, and even now isn't widely popular, at least on the ladder, and stall really wasn't viable then either.

    Stall hasn't been viable for the majority of the BW2 meta and for a laundry list of reasons completely unrelated to Braviary.

    Balance has been fine, in fact, SubBU Braviary itself is thrown on a lot of balance teams.


    Also the number of counters Braviary has is being understated. Braviary is extremely reliant on Roost due to SR damage and Brave Bird recoil, so fast Taunt users or Encore users will stop the set from setting up, and Braviary will likely be forced to switch which is relevant in a metagame where Stealth Rocks are always up.

    Not to mention many of the common electric types that want to switch into Brave Bird carry Static, which will cripple Braviary in the extremely likely chance it paralyzes and likely stop it from sweeping. It can also be phased by things that double resist its Brave Bird like Bastiodon.


    SubBU's actual sweeping ability is quite overrated....while something like Ludicolo comes in at any time it can feasibly set up and takes out probably 2 pokemon on the other team at least. Braviary is more of a late game cleaner than anything..and we already have quite a few of those that work very efficiently.

    People mention that it can set up on rock types, but the previously hyper-popular Golem breaks its sub and does heavy damage to it at +1 with Rock Blast.

    252 Atk Golem (+Atk) Rock Blast vs 252 HP/0 +1 Def Braviary: 17.08% - 20.79% (5-6 hits to KO)


    Braviary is more coincidentally elite than inherently broken, as metagame shifts have coincidentally made it a powerhouse based on the pokemon that are no longer popular as well as the pokemon that Braviary can be paired with to be even more outstanding.
  9. MMF

    MMF Give me the strength to part this sea

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2010
    Messages:
    538
    There's a difference between preparing your team for a powerful threat, and using whats arguably a niche mon or set just to beat a certain Pokemon that completely shreds stall and balance.

    Just because its not popular or "old" does not mean it isn't any less suspect worthy or broken. That has no relevance whatsoever.

    Please list these reasons as I and a few other people had great stall teams that became useless once SubBU Braviary was discovered. I would like to know this "laundry list of reasons".

    So Jynx wasn't broken because it could be used on balance? This logic doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I could use SubBu Braviary on stall but that doesn't have an bearing on whether or not its broken. And it does in fact shred a lot of balance teams. Balance teams generally have 2-3 defensive pokemon like the Regen core which is set up all over by Braviary.

    This is where your post starts bothering me because it seems like you've never actually used Braviary before. What fast Taunt/Encore users are you talking about? The only ones I can think of that are even viable are Kadabra and Skuntank. Notice how I said viable because shit like Emolga and Persian should NOT be brought up in this discussion.

    The only common electrics that use Static are Ampharos, Electabuzz, and (I say this because its used) Pikachu. Rotom-S, Eelektross, Rotom-F do not have Static. And really Electabuzz and Pikachu aren't that common so I probably shouldn't have said them but I know somebody would've brought them up.

    I won't even respond to this because its simply not true and just stated with no facts to back it up. There are plenty of times where myself and people I've watched, have swept entire teams with Sub BU Braviary and there was nothing the opponent could do.

    It does set up on Rock Types. Here's what your missing: Rock Blast doesn't hit five times in a row every time. So Braviary takes however much from Rock Blast and keeps Roosting until its at a decent health and then Bulks Up again. So now your Rock Blast is doing less and less as the process repeats. This is how Braviary beats nearly every rock type we have at our disposal.
  10. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2012
    Messages:
    509
    What I already said in black magic woman thread and has already been said by everone in this thread: the main reason to ban braviary is the fact it's choice and sub bu sets require completely different counters. I still wouldn't ban brav personaly, I think subBU is a bit overated and a bit better on paper than it actually is when playing (ex: people say it can pp stall regirock but regi can very well t wave it on the roost turn). I also had a lot of difficulty building a team around it when I tried too. I wouldn't ban brav personnaly.
  11. Django

    Django
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,815
    Having read over this post again I have to say I disagree. From the recent forrays into stall in the Teambuilding 101 thread we have seen that building a stall team, while difficult, is certainly possible. The thing that makes it so difficult however, is certainly not Braviary (at least in my experience). I had much greater trouble countering things like Samurott + Emboar - the fact all three stall teams use Frillish is a testament to how difficult those two are to counter, and generally I find them a much bigger threat to stall. Furthermore, when you throw powerhouses like Zangoose and Ludicolo into the mix, the number of actually viable options you have will get even smaller. In fact, the only thing I had to do to my stall team to make it "Braviary proof" is add Psych Up on Regirock. This is really not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, as it easily fits in the filler slots for most Regirock sets, especially those on stall. While Psych Up has pretty limited utility outside of that (it does help against boosting Poison types like Arbok or Muk), the fact is I can adapt a stall team to deal with all variants of Braviary by changing one move. The Choice Band set is the only other threatening one and, like always, it has to be dealt with via prediction.

    Now, for the sake of argument, lets say we do ban Braviary. I now look to build a stall team. Going through the exact same process as before it becomes almost mandatory to carry Frillish and Lickilicky, or at least a specially bulky Wish user, Rock / Steel types are still essential for the dangerous Normal- and Flying-types going around, while Pokemon such as Tangela etc are needed to deal with Golurk. Honestly, the only difference banning Braviary would make would be to free up a slot on Regirock or Probopass, and in fact Bastiodon would still use Roar. While we're talking about Bastiodon, that thing completely counters Bulk Up Braviary, racking up Stealth Rock damage with Roar. Yes Braviary can just Roost it off, but to do so it actually has to get in safely, and if you build a stall team where several team members cannot even status it as it switches in, then you should probably go and fix that. Most good stall teams should also carry a win condition, and provided you can deal with Braviary until your win condition is in a position to well, win, (Bastiodon does this perfectly) then you have beaten it. There are many more ways to beat Braviary than just "Toxic Probopass and Perish Song", a lot of which I've mentioned above. Saying it makes stall unviable is simply untrue. If you want to really look at what makes stall difficult (and, on that note, very stale since every stall team is basically the same), then look at Samurott, Emboar, Zangoose, Ludicolo, Sawk etc etc etc. They force you into running certain Pokemon i.e. Frillish, or otherwise carry multiple Pokemon purely in order to deal with them. Even so, stall is still viable, if a bit boring.

    As you might have guessed, I don't feel that Braviary itself is broken. The Choice sets are just as good as ever, but alone I certainly don't think they are ban-worthy, or even suspect worthy. The addition of Roost - thus making Bulk Up viable - has certainly been a huge plus for it, but still doesn't push it over the edge. It's been established that offense has little trouble dealing with Bulk Up, primarily due to the lack of set-up opportunities it will get. If you let it set up though (locking yourself into CB EQ or whatever else when not entirely necessary), then of course you're going to have trouble dealing with it - the same could be said of a number of other NU threats. As for balance well...balance is a pretty shitty playstyle regardless of Braviary. As we all know, the power level in NU is pretty damn high between Samurott, Sawk, Golurk, Zangoose, CHARIZARD, Ludicolo ETC. As such, you either have to be making use of that power level i.e. going offensive yourself, or directly play against it i.e. stall as hard as you can or run something weird like BATON PASS. Balance sits in between the two and pretty much by definition will fail; you can't fit enough defense on to beat all of those stupidly powerful threats, or you can't fit enough offense on to beat stall. It just fails to really execute a final goal and in general is a bad idea to build teams around it. With or without Braviary this will still be the case, so if you really want to make traditional balance truly viable there are a whole lot more Pokemon that need to be banned.

    Note when I talk about balance I am not talking about offensive teams that use Amoonguss or Musharna or whatever else as a bulky pivot, that is still offense.

    Also post more here! Either the lot of you have nothing to say about Braviary (which I find hard to believe) or you are all just ded :( Remember, solid posts here - and throughout the forum - will go a long way to us considering you for the rotating council.
  12. Detective Dell

    Detective Dell Winter Hibernation of the Yarnasauruses
    is a Battle Server Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2012
    Messages:
    493
    I think that the problem regarding everyone's say about Braviary is that they view its potential as one step ahead of every other Pokemon in regards of how it greatly affects the metagame and how huge of a strain that it may carry on towards most teams, simply because of one set. While extremely powerful, it doesn't exactly push things to the edge. Offense teams, which are getting more prevalent these days, are the ones that generally have little trouble with it because they generally give it little opportunities to set up. While it does give them trouble if it does get a setup opportunity, while its other sets, though generally require substantial amount of prediction, can be worked around with the pivots that they would have traditional answers to it, being Rock and Steel types. With that being said, I do believe that it does put a lot of strain towards specific teams, but so do other plethora of threats, so I think part of the reason why I'm leaning towards an unban is because I feel that it just balances out among those other threats that are powerful and versatile enough to pose as a threat towards specific team play styles, such as Ludicolo, Samurott, Musharna, Absol, Zangoose, Golurk and even more. If you view Braviary as ban-worthy because of that reason, why not consider these number of threats and how they have defines the metagame to what it is? All of which I've listed, including Braviary itself, are what creates restriction among our viable options of team building, so if we decide to ban Braviary, why not just ban the rest of these select threats, simply to make Balance a much more viable play style? With that being said, while I love the idea of giving it a suspect, I don't think the idea of banning Braviary is the right move for the current metagame for the time being.

    One suspect that I would like to make that a lot of people would probably least expect, is Baton Pass. I mean, lets face it here. A well-build Baton Pass chain can absolutely ravage standard teams within the hands of a smart player. Because of this, it is extremely hard to interrupt the chain (or even stop Ninjask for passing Speed Boosts alone) because they would be having all of the necessary sources to work around your methods of dealing with it. This is what makes it a problem, as it is not possible to expect to interrupt them by simply good play alone (unless you're regarding luck, of course, and even that is worked around by the advent of Substitute users among those teams). Speaking of Substitute and Speed Boosting, that is also what makes it a problem, since almost every Pokemon in a BP team will carry Substitute, which will either eliminate prediction or just potentially getting a free setup opportunity because of a misplay. Another thing to note is that there isn't a specific play style that it would struggle against because of the general sources that they have already to work around them. It sets up all over Stall and Balance usually, because even with the possibility of Roar in more defensive teams, that is easily worked around because they usually carry Mr. Mime or maybe a Taunt user or two, thus giving them easy opportunities to setup. Offense teams will not give them much trouble either, simply because they have tremendous amount of trouble stopping Ninjask from setting up (and what I mean by that is scouting and racking up Speed Boost until they have gained enough so they can pass to a pivot that would boost their defenses, rendering you nigh useless upon breaking through them). Boosting alongside the BP team usually doesn't mean much either when dedicated Baton Pass teams would have the resources provided to outboost them or just boost their defenses enough so that the particular threat wouldn't be a problem anyways. Unless you're using random niche Pokemon like Murkrow or another "check" among Baton Pass, the metagame really does not have reliably means against it.

    With that being said, I definitely see Baton Pass to be potentially more broken than any other play style to utilize. I would like to see Baton Pass, or at least Ninjask, to be suspected.
  13. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2012
    Messages:
    509
    I like how django compares braviary to other important threats like samurott and emboar when it comes to countering them in teambuilding. I have to admit I find myself swearing at those 2 mons for existing much more than I do for braviary. Another thing we could compare braviary to is other bulky mons that set up with bulk up or calm mind while healing themselves like gurdurr and musharna who both deal their own way with status inducers. Looking at those respective sets alone, the main advantage braviary has over them is it's better speed really since his defensive typing (which I'll talk more about later) really isn't that good and lets him less opportunities to set up than gurdurr and musharna have. Gurdurr and musharna also have a much appreciated role of defensive pivot, something braviary really isn't that good at. In fact, I consider both gurdurr and musharna slightly better than sub bu braviary since the better speed and great stab typing don't make up for the weaknesses it has over both: SR weakness, arguably worst defesive typing, doesn't heal while attacking like gurdurr or support the team like mushy (heal bell) and has a not quite as useful ability.

    Now about it's defensive typing. Lately I've been having some problems with countering electric types while teambuilding. Eelektross is the main reason for this because it's coverage moves are not hp ice, grass knot, air slash or focus blast. This makes it extremly hard to find something that deals with both eelektross and say electrode. Add to this all other electric mons and they really are a pain to counter as a whole (the best option I found is camerupt who doesn't really do much back to eelektross whith sp.d investment). Now, to come back to braviary, the big bird's bulk up set will usualy be used as a setting up special wall, but countering it's weaknesses with few pokes is an extremly hard thing to do. Now I only talked about electrics, but countering samurott, piloswine and regice also requires different pokemon most of the time. The thing about electrics however is they nearly always carry volt switch which is a pain because not only will you switch braviary by fear of getting t bolt spammed but you'll also lose momentum and it's even more terrible because braviary has a hard time coming in often on stealth rocks. Being a special wall with an ice and electric weakness is why I have such a hard time teambuilding around braviary.

    Brav's resistances aren't very good either, grass bug and ground is pretty few resistances and braviary walls barely nothing with any offensive presence, no matter the typing. This is also why I say the main reason braviary should go suspect is because of how important it is to guess it right since his choice sets aren't quite as threatening as other pokes especially now that metang is back in the tier being actually A GOOD MON.

    Btw, if you really have trouble with BU braviary, I'd like to suggest using encore with something that can attack on the special side. Since braviary is often using it's 3 non attacking moves prety often, it's pretty easy to encore it into one of them and break it down slowly. My sweet baby sash encore kadabra works perfcetly.

    As I already said, I do not consider braviary to be banworthy but since I'm not the only one to have an opinion, I would agree to have a suspect discussion.

    About what Dell said about baton pass, I totaly disagree for a couple of reasons.

    1. Baton pass teams are barely unexsitant, even if baton pass teams were judged too powerful, it's doesn't affect the metagame enough to make the tier boring.

    2. Baton pass might beat a lot of teams, but crit hax can affect them much more than it would affect a balanced or offesnive team. Since the set up part can be kind of long, it gives loads of time for your opponent to get that hax.

    3.
    A good player will usualy ravage standrad teams with pretty much any team. If you look at the ladder, people with over 15-1 of win loss ratio are actually pretty common. The questin is more can a good player always beat another good player and that I don'T think so.

    4. Baton pass teams have some weaknesses that are nearly impossible to cover. From the moment your opponent has either priority encore, haze or whirlwind with enough talent to use it properly, there's a good chance you'll lose the game. This gives the best users about the same win loss ratio they would have if they were using another type of team.

    5. Variety of baton passers is pretty limited making such teams pretty redundant, limited and predictable.

    6. Baton pass is cool to use without basing your team around it and it would be boring to ban it just because some extremely rare teams completely abuse the meta (which I don't even consider to be the case).
  14. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,487
    I admittedly haven't seen that many SubBU Braviary - two I've were incredible pains to deal with, but one was because I didn't know how to prepare for it and the other one got a timely substitute and then stalled me out - all that good stuff that makes it extremely good. I beat one pretty easly though, thanks to pressure from Electric-types and Golem, so it never got a chance to set up on me. Admittedly, if there is one thing that can stop Braviary, its constant pressure. You cannot burn it, so stall is not an option against it. However if you are able to do enough to it in return with your current Pokemon, then this becomes less of an issue. The Choice Band set is powerful too - it hits brutally hard and can cover pretty much everything out there, which is a huge plus. But here is where the issue at hand with Braviary comes in - which set does he have? While the Choice Scarf set is effective, it is easy to tell when it comes in - after a Pokemon has fainted, usually. But for Choice Band vs. SubBU, there isn't much of anything that can counter both sets. While Probopass can handle the SubBU set, a Choice Band set demoslishes Probopass. While an Electric-type can take down a Choice Band set (as in outspeed and OHKO), they aren't taking a Return from +1 Braviary if it has a Substitute up, sometimes even if they do not have a Substitute up.

    Essentially, in my understanding Braviary has no hard counters with just 2 sets that it can run, which makes it very dangerous. Several Pokemon in NU fears Braviary and its ability to break down some of the sturdist Pokemon in the tier with just its STABs or Superpower while its holding a Choice Band, which is pretty scary, and it can even take on things that it shouldn't be able to beat with its SubBU set, which can make methods of beating it pretty unorthodox, and it also becomes a huge guessing game that is really hard to defeat. I'm overall a bit iffy on it in the end though, as if you can keep pressure on Braviary and play smart, then it won't be as big or a problem as you expect, but otherwise it can be a real pain. Also none of the sets in and of themselves are too good for the metagame in my opinion.Overall, I see it as somewhat banworthy and I can see it going either way. (Sorry I don't have a definite opinion :()

    Ninjask was also brought up, but Ninjask isn't exactly that great of a Pokemon. While Braviary can handle things that beat it, Ninjask has only one viable set and what beats it it is unable to handle. Considering that Cincinno is the most common Pokemon in the tier, Ninjask cannot even set up a Substitute for a chance at a setting up more free boosts. It exists purely to pass of speed boosts, and no matter what, it can be stopped in every tier, practically, and NU might be the least kind to Ninjask. Rock Blast also does not help its cause. As to the case for straight up Baton Passing, I have yet to see a single Baton Passing team in NU! While it can be annoying, Ninjask allows a lot of time to set up your defenses, set up your own Pokemon like Braviary, or just do something as Ninjask will always lead off a all-out Baton Pass team and usually carries only X-Scissor if it even bothers to carry a move, and one mistake can ruin a Baton Pass team - without Magic Bouncing Pokemon or Smeargle this "one mistake" can occur really early. It is more of a "Dark Horse threat" than a real pain, and thus Baton Pass in my eyes (and Ninjask) is not Banworthy.
  15. Detective Dell

    Detective Dell Winter Hibernation of the Yarnasauruses
    is a Battle Server Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2012
    Messages:
    493
    Well, I see that neither of you are really getting the point, so, regarding Sweet Jesus's post, I'm going to jot down my replies on what he is saying against Baton Pass.


    1. Baton Pass teams being rare doesn't exactly present a great argument, especially considering that weather is pretty rare as well and it was up for suspect before. Also, just because it is uncommon, doesn't mean that it isn't any more or less of a threat than what it really can be.

    2. Hax is not an argument for suspect testing since every team faces hax and that can never be prevented, and also because of the fact that almost every member in a Baton Pass team carries Substitute to scout for moves, get free setups, and technically scout for hax, lol.

    3. Sure, any good player can usually win with a decent team. Often, matches are decided upon good play alone. What I'm saying is that BP teams are built so that if an opposing team doesn't have a few reliable answers to them, then even good players won't be able to stop it; in a contest between two good players, with one player having a decent non-bp team, and the other having a decent BP team, I'd bet more on the BP player.

    4. Taunt isn't the best counter to BP. In fact, I'd even go as far as to say that it's rarely even a check since most chain members, if not all, carry an attacking move as well. There are even other ways, such as Mental Herb and carrying Taunt themselves. If their offenses managed to get boosted, then even taunt users will have trouble as well. Priority Encore is a threat of course, and is Priority Haze, but Prankster Pokemon aren't commonly used, and the top priority of any BP team is to take out these threats, and to be fair, that can be accomplished by good play alone, considering that they are also usually rather frail themselves and the non-Prankster users of these moves have to deal with possible Taunts as well.

    5. Yeah, there are a limited number of Baton Passers that are viable, but most of them are standard because they have important, often irreplaceable attributes, and the remaining slots are actually pretty variable, depending on what you need to cover your team needs of weaknesses, stat boosts, and more.


    6. WTF, that isn't even an argument, so sorry to say. It'd be boring to ban it? So, for example, if the metagame was brought to the point where Stall becomes extremely centralizing, yet often a boring play style, that would be boring to ban too? I'm sorry, but that's an invalid issue.

    Now, to Swamp-Rocket. The thing that you, and many other people out there, all misunderstand is Ninjask's value. Ninjask is a Pokemon whose success depends on the quality of the team building, rather than the Pokemon itself. First of all, you mention that Rock Blast can easily take out Ninjask itself, but you don't mention what specifically counters it. There is where people often go wrong in that regard, and your point is no different here. Ninjask has no technical "counters", because it is almost guaranteed to perform its job successfully. So you switch into a Rock Blast user like Cincinno or Golem as it goes for a Substitute or whatever. You think you're going to stop it from performing it's job, well, lets see. Ninjask can simply Protect next turn, scouting what move that you will go for, and Baton Pass out to a proper recipient the very next turn. This is exactly part of what makes Ninjask capable of performing its job nigh perfectly. While you fail to "counter" it because you didn't stop its job, you have also made yourself vulnerable to the fact that it has the ability to let its teammates perform sweeps with just a single successful pass, not even mentioning the fact that a chain of boosts can make a near invincible monster. Speed Boosting can benefit just about everything, and the terms of reliability of performing such a task for its proper teammates is skewed heavily into Ninjask's favor, because of the fact that it's nearly impossible to prevent it from performing its job.
  16. Sweet Jesus

    Sweet Jesus Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2012
    Messages:
    509
    @Agent Dell

    1. Doesn't counter my argument:
    (sorry for the lack of vocab english is my second language, Im sure you can find another word to replace boring). I guess weather was rare at the time to, I would have voted against banning it too (and it was just weather rocks iirc)

    2. I know hax happens all the time and that's the point. Since it does happen all the time it does make bp less powerful in the long run because a member of a bp team is more part of a whole than a member of a standard team and a crit will wreck your poke through defence boosts. You can't say you can't consider hax because it doesn't depend on anyone, pokemon is a game of skill but also probabilities and if you play in a way probabilities are against you won't be winning as much as if they weren't. Surely not a main argument, but just adds up to the others.

    3. A good team should be built with some kind of answer to baton pass or at least ninjask imo, baton pass is a threat as much as emboar or ludicolo.

    4. You're gonna have to quote me on taunt because I haven't mentionned it :p then again it still can be added to the bp team threat list even if it's less important. Sorry if it sounded like priority haze, I meant haze alone and priority encore. Sure they aren't that common but every time I carried those moves, I defeated every baton pass team I faced. It's enough to discourage me from building a bp team.

    5. Doesn't really counter my argument.

    6.Sorry again for the word boring, I meant baton pass brings cool options to the meta not only in the form of baton pass teams, kind of like hax, not a main argument but even if it was judged overpowerful, it's so rare that banning it is more like banning a cool toy for nearly nothing when the neverused tier is fun and recognized because of all the viable toys. Sure this has nothing to do with how powerful it is but in the end we're all just here to have fun and baton pass is not good or common enough to discourage anyone from playing NU.
  17. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,487
    Thoe are the advantages of Ninjask as a Pokemon. But what makes it broken in NU and yet managable in other tiers? That is what I see as the issue at hand when it comes to wanting to ban a Pokemon such as Ninjask. If Ninjask was broken in that regard, it would theoretically be impossible to stop in not only NU but also any tier above this one. It isn't even a real deterrent in NU - when I am teambuilding I rarely think "those Baton Pass chain teams are really hard to stop - I have to prepare for them!" I think of Ninjask somewhat, but not really the rest of the chain. Even then, it isn't hard to prepare for them - running a hazer or a phazer is usually enough to stop the accumulation of boosts. As I mentioned, this isn't a tier where Magic Bounce Pokemon and Smeargle are ready to stop Whirlwinds.

    Ninjask is a Pokemon that is a make-or-break, and when I face off against Ninjask, that is what happens - it either performs its function very well or goes down too fast thanks to Stealth Rock, Substitutes, and switching. Ninjask can usually bring a Pokemon into the battle very easily, but if that Pokemon faints, with Stealth Rock on the field it is hard to set up all the Speed Boosts again.
  18. Detective Dell

    Detective Dell Winter Hibernation of the Yarnasauruses
    is a Battle Server Moderatoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2012
    Messages:
    493
    I'm just going to point out right now that just because Ninjask or Baton Pass may not potentially be broken in other tiers, doesn't mean that it would have any bearing towards to what NU have that would be relevant here. That is faulty logic, because NU doesn't have the same checks as other tiers may have. The fact that it's extremely hard to stop Ninjask and full Baton Pass teams without relying on something that's incredibly niche or irrelevant to what the NU metagame is of today would be beyond me as to why it wouldn't be suspect-worthy. Roar is not very common, and Whirlwind is much less common in the tier. You can't just simply run something with phazing moves in the tier because they're usually not well-fit into normal teams. That's like saying that an excellent, prominent team in a tier isn't all that great because they are 6-0 by some random niche Pokemon.
  19. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken seize the day
    is a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnus
    NU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,161
    hey guys!

    i know it's been a bit dead in this thread, but i'd go as far to say that the reason is, we've come really close to achieving a pretty balanced metagame and there isn't all that much to discuss for suspect. there are some rare team archetypes that require either extraordinary play or luck, like how dell pointed out baton pass. however, just like when we discussed weather, i honestly believe it's an effective strategy simply because it's so rare. usage shouldn't play into consideration when we're talking about how broken something is but i don't want to ban something based on its 'potential' when it is just outright not used. if bp becomes an issue in the future that's fine, we'll talk about it more in-depth then, but for now i think it's safe to say that we shouldn't have to worry about discussing it.

    we will only be voting on braviary this round. i'm not going to close this and put up another single suspect discussion thread as that would be rather silly. instead, this thread will also serve as the discussion of braviary alone. i will be closing this thread on thursday, november 15th at around this time, so that gives you something close to three days to give a few more arguments on why braviary should or should not be banned. i know some voters are still borderline on whether or not braviary is broken in the current metagame, so if you have an opinion please make it known (and back it up with sufficient evidence, of course).

    all members of the NU senate will be voting, as well as the following members who applied to be a part of the rotating council: AgentDell, Annoyer, EBeast, tennisace. everyone voting is expected to make a post clarifying their position on braviary itt within the next three days, so please do so.

    uhh i don't think there's anything else for me to say, so go ahead and post your thoughts on braviary, guys. i'll follow up with one of my own sometime tomorrow.
  20. Amarillo

    Amarillo
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2010
    Messages:
    720
    I'll try brief but i'll need to post now because screw schedules and im kinda fucked for the weekend etc.

    First, about stall / slow teams not being able to face Braviary at all: I'm glad that we are having this discussion after that stint of stall as flavor of the week. It just showed how defensive minded teams can be made without necessarily being setup fodder for everything with no way to force out bulky Substitutes. Offensive teams have not quite much trouble with Braviary as a whole, etc. I think we're pretty sure about where the Choice sets stand, as it's been around for a long time, not much has changed in how people deal with it, and it's totally fine as is.

    So, Bulk Up Braviary. What of it? Yeah, I see Ebeast's point about how wearing stuff down systematically can be very, very painful. However, can't that happen to just about basically everything without recovery? I mean, I see it as this: in that same condition with Spikes + SR, everything without recovery is forced into that "can't wall forever, lol" situation. But even for the hardest counters of anything, you always take damage coming in. Let's not even consider how Spikes essentially require a set teamslot just for the sake of it. If "force stuff in, lol it got chipped, recover and switch out" is a reason for ban, a lot of things would be considered banworthy.

    Getting chipped on the way in isn't quite a reason for something to be banned. You can get plays on in when it comes in. If it keeps coming in on revenges the point is really moot because lots of deaths are happening to facilitate such a strategy. If you can't get plays on it when it comes in, at least you can force it out! After forcing it out, yes indeed Braviary hasn't lost any health. But you do have a free play and momentum. Unless you are full stall (with no win conditions, lol) there is no reason why you shouldn't be allowed to make your own threats, force plays on him, and kill stuff on their side of the field because they're getting forced out every time they perform that supposedly "insta-advantageous" maneuver.

    Fine so if getting chipped is not the reason for its brokenness, what of it? It's really easy to set up. It wrecks slow teams. Slow and weak (offensively speaking, not in terms of 'objective power') teams, I should add. Those teams, by definition, have a stall-like basis. Stall is adaptive, and refusing to cover such (coverable) threat when it doesn't give you additional weaknesses is, in my opinion, stupid. Stall is possible, after all.

    There's lots of other reasons why just sticking in Alomomoonguss on an otherwise offensive team isn't a good idea - it gives a lot of random shit including SubSD Licki, Arbok, etc free setup opportunities. It's not just Braviary. And if your team can't handle all those, why carry them? The problem is that people are using setup bait mons like Amoonguss after Sleep Clause, and not expecting to be punished for it. Why not? They should!

    Now let's see if Braviary single-handedly makes whole playstyle unviable, as some suggest. You can build really aggressive offense teams, they work well vs. Braviary because almost everything will outspeed (and they also still carry rocks anyways for SR support). You can build super stally teams which takes care of all braviary sets. And people talk about balanced teams as if they are rendered unviable because of Bulk Up Braviary, but probably some of the best teams around that saw recent tournament success are Bulky Offense / Balanced Offense teams?

    I'm not quite sure if Braviary should be banned. He's certainly manageable in my opinion, though.

    ps: lol not brief at all <_<
  21. Django

    Django
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,815
    So if you want to see my thoughts on Braviary, read my previous post. The reason I'm posting now is this: Do we even need to vote on Braviary? So far no one has really provided any solid arguments (in my opinion) about why it should even be suspected, and this discussion hasn't really produced anything. This indicates to me that no one really thinks Braviary is worth suspecting, or everyone is increidbly lazy! Yeah just something that crossed my mind.
  22. Raseri

    Raseri musharna fan
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Researcher Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    NU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2007
    Messages:
    3,270
    Not broken =/= not suspect.

    Personally I can see Braviary being suspect, its 2 best sets both have drastically different counters and each can wreck a playstyle of their choice. With Braviary you can essentially wreck a playstyle of your choice, with only balance being difficult. Scarf wrecks offense, subBU wrecks defense, CB wrecks everything.

    Personally I don't find Braviary broken when its used against me, but I play extremely offensively which lets subBU(the most common set I see) get wrecked very easily. But when used against great players Braviary almost always plays a key role.

    Also we voted on Cinccino and Gorebyss so ??????????????????????????????
  23. Django

    Django
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,815
    Yes but people actually provided points as to why they wanted Cinccino and Gorebyss suspected - at the moment I see 1 maybe 2 good posts actually providing argumentation for even suspecting Braviary. I don't see why we should be voting on something when the actual outcry (at least on the forums) for it to be suspected has been minimal.

    Also can people please stop saying BU Braviary beats stall that is simply not true.
  24. CrashinBoomBang

    CrashinBoomBang Aye I got Swagger, Koga 87
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Factory Foreman

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2010
    Messages:
    1,028
    100% agreed, there are tons of ways stall teams can adapt to Sub BU Braviary (Psych Up/Curse Regirock is one moveslot on one Pokemon that can afford it to be used, and I'm pretty sure every other Rock and/or Steel type a stall team would use has at least one way to beat it reliably as well).

    Yes, Braviary is a great Pokemon. Yes, it might actually be the best Pokemon in the tier with its recently discovered Sub BU set. However, some people seem to overestimate Braviary by a lot. The Choice sets don't really need to be talked about that as there really isn't all that much that sets Choice Band Braviary apart from other Choice Banders such as Emboar, Sawk or Golurk, and I don't think that people really care all that much about it to begin with. Choice Scarf Braviary is a great Scarfer thanks to high powered STAB'd moves, decent speed (outspeeding Swellow unlike Emboar, for example) and U-turn; the Stealth Rock weakness hurts a lot, as well as being almost unable to hurt defensive juggernauts such as Alomomola and Regirock to a great deal. Again, Choice Scarf isn't a set people have complained about.

    Now, Sub Bulk Up, the set that supposedly "breaks" Braviary (in conjunction with its unpredictability?). People are really, really overestimating how easily Braviary sets up. It has a ton of special bulk, yes, but it's not a gamebreaker and, in fact, needs a lot of support unless your opponent doesn't know what he is doing. People are claiming that it beats stall but, as described above, Stall teams just have to change a miniscule thing to totally shut it down. Offensive teams barely even give it time to set up anything at all with powerful hitters such as CB Sawk, Piloswine and even opposing Braviary everywhere. It arguably fares the best against balanced teams, but even then it it's not easy to set up at all; there are a lot of Pokemon that can successfully check it and, assuming Stealth Rocks are up, probably prevent it from switching in much at all during the rest of the game. Everything that can tank a 0 Attack Brave Bird while doing huge damage fits those criteria, really, as long as it's not completely foolishly played, and there's stuff like Haunter that can just stall it out.

    About the unpredictability, that can be said for a lot of Pokemon, and it's not like you're automatically down a Pokemon if you switch Alomomola into Sub Bulk Up or something. Switching something like Rotom-A into the Choice Bander can be fatal, of course, but that can be said for every Choice Bander so I really don't think it matters all that much...

    Anyway, I basically just think that Braviary is a fantastic Pokemon in the current NU metagame. Sub Bulk Up still needs a ton of support to function right, and it surely isn't the unstoppable killing machine people are making it out to be, at least not against anyone who is halfway prepared for it (which most people on the ladder are not, for some reason). The Choice Bander is destructive, but it lacks speed at times and the Stealth Rock weakness hurts it a lot; the same rock weakness applies to the Choice Scarfer, who solves the speed problem by sacrificing a lot of power. Both have a ton of solid checks and aren't broken by any means, either. I really can't see how Braviary is even remotely broken in mid-high level play which is, I assume, what we're mainly looking at since Zangoose was also an unstoppable monster on ladder. I don't think that there's really any reason to ban Braviary currently; it probably helps the metagame a lot more than it hurts it by giving offensive teams a cushion against powerful special attackers, for example.
  25. Annoyer

    Annoyer =)~

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2012
    Messages:
    648
    Braviary the suspect KACAW

    Braviary is one of the best Pokemon in the tier, without a doubt. Whether it's broken or not, is a pretty hard question to figure out. At the moment, the metagame is pretty balanced and Braviary is not as overcentralizing as many people make it out to be. Even though SubBU can set up on threats such as non-Psyche Up Regirock, Alomomola, or Amoonguss, it can't directly switch into these threats safely. It needs to lure in the Rock-type to be successful the majority of time on setting up on it while Alomomola and Amoonguss can status it with Toxic or Spore, respectively. Sure, CB Braviary can 2HKO the majority of the tier, but so can Emboar and Zangoose; they haven't been banned. Choice Scarf is a decent revenge killer/cleaner although its Stealth Rock weakness, weaker moves, and sub-par average speed for a Choice Scarf user (not outspeeding +2 Gorebyss) really limit its capability as a Choice Scarf user. Even a 3 Attacks + Roost Life Orb set is viable since it nullifies prediction while still boasting advantages of being able to recover health and not being locked into a disadvantageous move.

    Even though each set is pretty managable for a team, the main issue about Braviary I see is its ability to run each of these sets, and how each set, specifically SubBU, has its own set of checks and counters. Of course, Braviary can't run all of these sets, but it still poses a threat before it comes out and it puts a strain on teambuilding since you have to cover each set because Braviary is such a huge threat.

    However, this sort of versatility is common in many Pokemon such as Emboar or Samurott. Many sets such as Psyche Up Regirock or Power Gem + Toxic Probopass have been created to deal with Braviary, but even though they still changed their set to deal with Braviary, that is not a negatvie thing. Teams have to adapt to the metagame. Why do you think Rocky Helmet is a pretty popular item now? It's because of what was a pretty new threat, Cinccino. Braviary causes changes in the metagame, but these changes aren't making the metagame any worse. The choiced sets obviously aren't broken since otherwise Braviary would have been suspected long before so SubBU is the main thing that people think that pushes Braviary over the top. Others have already stated that Braviary doesn't ruin stall in above posts and sometimes, the CB set might even be more threatening to stall teams. This shows how teams can still adapt to threats and still be efficient at dealing with other threats in the metagame. Honestly, when offensive teams are filled with threats such as CB Sawk, Zangoose, and Emboar, Braviary rarely has a chance to set up, and it won't be singlehandly taking these teams down either. Balance teams are the "best match up" for SubBU Braviary, but Pokemon like Eelektross can still check it well. Stealth Rock also forces Braviary to roost eventually giving the opponent a free turn to do whatever they please. Right now, the metagame is not hindered by Braviary's presence whatsoever, players will just need to adapt to Braviary like you have to for all threats.

    tl; dr Braviary is an amazing Pokemon, if not the best in NU, but it is not broken.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)