On The Radar Vol. 2 [See Post #336]

[Divine Retribution]

Gorilla Tactics exists on Darmanitan and on it alone. You can not say the ability is or is not broken because you have no second reference point such as with Protean, Speed Boost or Shadow Tag/Arena Trap.

Yes, we do. Huge Power and Pure Power are strict improvements to Gorilla Tactics. They are not inherently broken, therefore Gorilla Tactics cannot, by itself, be broken.

It's also worth noting that Gorilla Tactics has been quickbanned in Hackmons. Hackmons isn't precedent in OU, clearly. But there's a potential argument to be made that it and Huge Power (and Wonder Guard) are in fact broken abilities, and Gorilla Tactics is the only one that has failed to positively affirm that bad distribution balances it.

No, it's really not worth noting. A metagame where you can put any ability on any Pokemon is inevitably going to have a different sense of balance than one where you, like, can't do that. Hackmons has literally no bearing on official tiers whatsoever, this argument is frankly absurd.


Anyways I've said all I have to say regarding this issue so I probably won't be replying to any more posts unless they actually bring up something unique. This horse is dead, no point beating it any further.

 

[Rarycaris]

A metagame where you can put any ability on any Pokemon is inevitably going to have a different sense of balance than one where you, like, can't do that.

I don't see any way to argue this without conceding that an ability's distribution affects its balance, which is plainly contradictory with "Pure Power proves that Gorilla Tactics isn't broken".

 

[Divine Retribution]

I don't see any way to argue this without conceding that an ability's distribution affects its balance, which is plainly contradictory with "Pure Power proves that Gorilla Tactics isn't broken".

Right, so when do you think we should suspect Wonder Guard, Pure Power, Huge Power, Stakeout, and the 50 other abilities Hackmons bans because being able to use any combination of Pokemon, ability, and moves completely warps the game into something that frankly bears only a passing resemblance to the live game?

 

[Yung Dramps]

Mother of god, how has this discussion devolved into diatribes about HACKMONS TIERING?!

Seriously, let's stop. Everyone's said their piece, the horse has been beaten, reincarnated and beaten to death again. Now, let's figure out whether we wanna quickban or suspect test Darmanitan/Gorilla Tactics/whatever the fuck before this thread gets locked.

 

[LRCN]

Yes, we do. Huge Power and Pure Power are strict improvements to Gorilla Tactics. They are not inherently broken, therefore Gorilla Tactics cannot, by itself, be broken.

Absolute crap argument. You ban things because of the effect they have on the meta. GT is breaking an otherwise good mon and centralising the meta, so GT needs to go. This has been made infuriatingly overcomplicated.

Dramps is right tho - everyone is going round in circles and we need the wise ones to give this some direction.

 

[Rarycaris]

I see little point in a suspect test here.

I think the thread is getting derailed because, in terms of whether Darmanitan is a problem, there is no serious debate to be had. Everyone agrees it needs to go, which means that a suspect test is pretty much a formality. I can't remember a consensus this unanimous that something was broken since Mega Salamence.

We've already lost six weeks to the Dynamax suspect test (which, let's be honest, was mostly tested for PR reasons), and it will seriously harm the development of the metagame if we insist on spending the next few weeks standing on formalities. At this point, if there's going to be a suspect test, I'd say the onus is on its supporters to give a plausible explanation for why Darmanitan might escape the banhammer. So far, the only such argument I've seen is "stall will be viable if this is banned", a fact which speaks for itself.

 

[Protoscourge]

Mother of god, how has this discussion devolved into diatribes about HACKMONS TIERING?!

Seriously, let's stop. Everyone's said their piece, the horse has been beaten, reincarnated and beaten to death again. Now, let's figure out whether we wanna quickban or suspect test Darmanitan/Gorilla Tactics/whatever the fuck before this thread gets locked.

You know what? I agree: fuck it. Just either suspect or quickban this mon.

I'm gonna be super petty when I say that some people missed out on doing something cool and unique at the start of Gen 8. And I'm glad that an actually good ice type will be leaving; I don't even like G-Darm. I like Kommo-o and getting rid of one of its better checks entirely is a win for me.

 

[Theukon_Dos]

[snip]

For the 3rd time now, if another factor is "making Gorilla Tactics broken" or whatever, then Gorilla Tactics itself is NOT the broken element. If it's not the broken element, we have no justification to ban it, end of story. Call it pedantry or whatever the fuck you want, that's simply how the tiering process works, and if we want to preserve that cohesion, Darmanitan as a whole must go.

on the flip side, I could just as easally point out that Garm itself isn't the broken element either. It's strong, sure, but it's much less overwealming when it doesn't have double damage right out the gate from CBCB. It's the combonation of both Garm's sweeper stats and GT's damage boost that push it over the edge.

if we ban Gorilla tactics, we loose nothing. it only exists on Garm, it's the sole reason Garm's OP, and thus, banning it would be healthy for the meta.

if we ban Garm as a whole, we loose quite possibly the most reliable non-legendary ice type introduced in 20 years* and while I doubt the meta would really notice it's absence, but considering the kind of game Pokemon is, I can't help but feel that having an entire typing just not being viable isn't a good thing, so even having the 1 representative is a good thing.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

It's the combonation of both Garm's sweeper stats and GT's damage boost that push it over the edge.

This translates to "it's Darmanitan + GT's damage boost" which I'd agree with. But, if we take that same GT damage boost and put it on Darumaka (whether it gets it or not is neither here nor there) is it still broken? No, of course not. I use Darumaka to draw parallels to abilities we did ban ie. Arena Trap and Shadow Tag.
However, you put it on Darmanitan and all of a sudden it's an issue...

How do we manage to navigate to "Gorilla Tactics is clearly the problem" from there? Because that seems to indicate the opposite.

If "A" + "X" produces something undesirable, and "B" + "X" does not, most would agree that removing "A" is your solution...

 

[Theukon_Dos]

This translates to "it's Darmanitan + GT's damage boost" which I'd agree with. But, if we take that same GT damage boost and put it on Darumaka (whether it gets it or not is neither here nor there) is it still broken? No, of course not.
However, you put it on Darmanitan and all of a sudden it's an issue...

How do we manage to navigate to "Gorilla Tactics is clearly the problem" from there? Because that seems to indicate the opposite.

That's the thing, Neither of them are the problem on there own, it's the combonation of them that is OP. Thus, we only need to remove 1 to solve the issue. The way I see it is that you can't play an ability, and Garm is the only pokemon with said ability. So, if we remove the ability, we get to keep darm, and considering how many pokemon got the axe, having just 1 more viable one would likely be good for the meta

 

[Modern_Erasmus]

This translates to "it's Darmanitan + GT's damage boost" which I'd agree with. But, if we take that same GT damage boost and put it on Darumaka (whether it gets it or not is neither here nor there) is it still broken? No, of course not.
However, you put it on Darmanitan and all of a sudden it's an issue...

How do we manage to navigate to "Gorilla Tactics is clearly the problem" from there? Because that seems to indicate the opposite.

If "A" + "X" produces something undesirable, and "B" + "X" does not, most would agree that removing "A" is your solution...

Except it’s not on Darumaka which makes this entire argument a meaningless hypothetical. By the logic you’re using, we should ban huge power because if it were on any mon with a decent attack stat it would be OP, even though it’s specifically balanced by not being given to any of those.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

So, if we remove the ability, we get to keep darm, and considering how many pokemon got the axe, having just 1 more viable one would likely be good for the meta

I'll respond to you with something I said a few pages back...

We do not, have not, and should not, ban abilities to cater to a broken Pokemon so that they are no longer seen as broken.

This is "muh dry pass" all over again...

Except it’s not on Darumaka which makes this entire argument a meaningless hypothetical. By the logic you’re using, we should ban huge power because if it were on any mon with a decent attack stat it would be OP, even though it’s specifically balanced by not being given to any of those.

No, by my logic, I would ban the Pokemon that Huge power is on if it's broken, because Huge Power on its own is not broken... I'm not tiptoeing around something on the grounds of "inclusivity". I don't care in the slightest whether we lose the meme that is Zen Mode Darmanitan or not.

My stance is firm.

 

[Theukon_Dos]

Screw it. At this point I'm gonna sit back and grab the popcorn. This whole thread has become a mess and at this point the mods should probably just lock it and start fresh. This dumb back and forth is getting nobody anywhere. The thread was about discussing banning Darm. That's what we should be doing.

unfortunitly, I don't think it's going to get anywhere. Everyone agrees that something needs done about Garm, the issue is that we have 2 different ways to go about it, both with strong reasons for and against, and even a bit of overlapping logic for both sides.

 

[Reuniclus Lover]

At this point i have to ask myself, "Should we continue this thread?" It seems to be the General consensus that G.Darm + GT = broken, can we please just quick ban this mon or it's ability? (I'm for banning GT) I'm both very excited to see what the meta will evolve into, and excited to run Reuniclus stall without having to worry about G.Darm eviscerating my team.

 

[myowngamertag]

The anti-Gorilla Tactics ban argument would be better if there were ANY other mon with the ability. As it is, G-Darm is the only one with the ability and it's currently tearing OU a new one while its other ability Zen Mode is a manageable high-risk high-reward set up sweeper whose counterplay is thrown out the window into a gg because you're thinking it's a GT Darm.

On another note, I feel like I can't stress this point enough that Huge Power is only better than Gorilla Tactics in a vacuum. It's an ability that serves as nothing more than a base attack stat supplement to mons with mediocre/poor attacking and speed stats and often shallow movepools. Huge Power mons are still strong, but they also can't slap 2 bands or a band+scarf on a mon with 140 Attack, 95 speed, near perfect coverage, and U-Turn in a post dexit world where the overall power level of the average OU mon is greatly reduced. You guys are focusing on the on-paper aspect rather than how things really pan out in a match. Quickban Gorilla Tactics+Darm-G like Power Construct+Zygarde was banned in Gen 7

 

[TPP]

Hi, I am going to kindly ask everyone to quit discussing banning Darmanitan vs. banning Gorilla Tactics. It doesn't take a genius to see that it has definetely run its course. Instead, I'll give you some options on what you can discuss below:

1) Should Darmanitan be banned? The options for this are yes, it is ban worthy, and no, it is not ban worthy. Essentially I'm asking if you believe some form of action involving Darmanitan should occur or not.

2) If Darmanitan should be banned, should it be done through a suspect test, or a quickban? This question asks how you believe we should proceed with handling Darmanitan if action is required to remove it from OU.

I won't lock this thread because the potential to see a new argument for one of the above questions still exists, even if it may seem low. We don't want to lock this thread and would strongly prefer it be kept open, so please don't make us lock it.

 

[DialgaTheTimeLord]

I'm no ladder expert but the damage Darm can do in its current state is insane. Scarf tears teams apart. Band KOs just about everything, no question. If my say has any weight at all, I would highly suggest a quickban. Darm's power level and ability to run multiple options that handle each other's already flimsy checks is way too much for the meta.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Just to restate how I feel on these questions:

1) I ain't got no hot takes. Darm is busted, the damage it does it just too absurd and depending on which Choice item you run you either mutilate offense or balance with each playstyle having few real answers to the onslaught. A telltale sign of an overcentralizing element is when otherwise suboptimal counterpicks begin emerging just to stand a chance, and if a situation has been created where people are running Milotic over Toxapex just for a better chance at beating it there's a problem.

2) Quickban. Not only is it a waste of time to go through the whole suspect process for an inevitable result, not only does it leave minuscule time to develop the post-Darmanitan meta before SPL, but it also leaves no time to possibly look at some other major issues like Dracovish and/or Dugtrio that have been discussed in this thread before that tournament begins.

 

[HeartfulKitty]

I previously thought a suspect would be good, but yeah, a quickban is by far the best course of action, regardless of whether it’s the ability or the whole mon. Everyone agrees that it’s too good, and that it needs the boot. Choice scarf and choice band together put out so much pressure that you need a check to each, and even then the uturn chip and icicle crash flinch chance can help it overwhelm what it’s supposed to be checked by. No point in wasting time on another sweeping pro-ban majority in a suspect, especially with SPL happening relatively soon.

However, after SPL is over and things settle down a bit, I don’t think a public suspect would be a bad idea, just to see how things have fallen into place without it, and see if any new strategies or previously unexplored mons are capable of taking it on. But as of right now, 100% quickban something, and if it stays banned after, even without a suspect, I doubt very many people would get upset.

 

[myowngamertag]

1) Yes, I'm for a ban 100%. I'd honestly prefer Gorilla Tactics to be the one to go as I've stated a couple times in this thread already, but there's no doubt in my mind that this mon is just a carnage machine that warps the meta in a way very mons do in Gen 8.

2) Let's make this fast and painless with a quickban. A suspect test for Darm might be an even more lopsided and pointless endeavor than the one for Dynamax. At least for Dynamax, you could argue that it was the core mechanic of the gen and it gave Sword/Shield a unique "flavor" (aka Gyarados, Excadrill and Ditto 6-0'ing teams everywhere)

 

[Reuniclus Lover]

1. "Should Darmanitan be banned? The options for this are yes, it is ban worthy, and no, it is not ban worthy. Essentially I'm asking if you believe some form of action involving Darmanitan should occur or not."

G.Darm is without a doubt broken. Scarf G.Darm just guts offensive builds/teams, and out speeds everything except sand Drill and scarf Draga. CB Darm destroys everything else. There isn't a real dedicated switch in for this thing, and if you think you have one the combination of U turn and hazards will gut it. This thing also puts a ton of restriction on team building. So yes, I am all for the banning of either G.Darm or GT.

2. "If Darmanitan should be banned, should it be done through a suspect test, or a quickban? This question asks how you believe we should proceed with handling Darmanitan if action is required to remove it from OU."

Absolute quickban

 

[TheDirtyRed]

I think that this thread is 95% people arguing about what should be banned and 5% that Garmanitan shouldn't be banned says enough.

From my experience laddering post Dynaban, this mon (and the Vish but this thread's not about that) limit team building severely because of its ability to completely dismantle teams with no setup. Scarf wipes any offensive mon and Band will at least 2HKO any wall trying to come in. While Band is worse in general because it's much easier to revenge kill, it's still unwallable. If you're not running a dedicated Garm wall and a scarf revenge killer you leave yourself at a massive disadvantage.

I'd say it's deserving of a quickban but a suspect test wouldn't be unreasonable, although likely a foregone conclusion it'll have a supermajority ban.

 

[Pokedom10]

this was a fun party to be late to

Anyways Galar Darm is pretty dummy busted. Flare Blitz, U Turn, Icicle Crash, Earthquake, Scarf+GT basically invalidates every single would-be meta Pokemon. And if there is a legitimate counter to Scarf, it can always just double-Band and kill everything at the cost of losing to other Scarfers.

Suspecting is the right call here, not quickbanning. I think it's still really early to call this, as it's kinda still in a grey area where it's very very strong, but not so uber-strong that you have to take immediate action like Dynamaxing was. Dynamaxing was obviously busted in a way that wasn't fun or competitive, GDarm is... questionably stronger than what is considered healthy, and I'd like to see who comes out during a suspect, as just like with Dynamax, there will absolutely be GDarm apologists that come from the ancient depths of Facebook to make their distaste known.

But aren't you the same dummyhead who ranted about Dynamax being an unhealthy offense oriented dummy option for casual dummys? Isn't GDarm the same deal?

Yeah but GDarm isn't Dynamaxing anymore thank god, and I think that was overall a nerf to its abilities slightly. Lets just see how a suspect goes before jumping to banning, though if we are doing a ban/no ban, I'd still lean Ban, as it is slightly over-tuned. If Gorilla Tactics negated Choice items then we'd see it be much more managable and y'all know that too.

Zen Mode I have no opinion on and lets be honest is a non factor in all this.

 

[Linkart567]

1) Yes, GT Darmanitan is ban-worthy.

2) A quickban should be the course of action here. An overwhelming majority agrees that it should be banned and we don't need to waste another two weeks just to run the suspect test for it to be banned all the same.

 

[Sensemaker]

Now that we have clarification that GT will not be considered for a ban, but rather Garm as a whole, I will say that it is absolutely banworthy. It constrains teambuilding, necessitating at least one defensive switch in and one potential scarfed revenge killer (e.g Timid Hydreigon, Dragapult, Jolly Cinderace, among a few others) which are usually less than optimal sets for those 'Mons or a priority user ala Conkeldurr which can only come in after loss on your side anyway.

As for course of action, it seems that the consensus is unanimous among the community that Garm is broken, thus a suspect test would simply be a formality. For that reason, I would suggest that Garm be quickbanned.