Ladder ORAS 1v1 [3v3 Team Preview]

Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: null Spe
- Perish Song
- Protect
- Hyper Beam
- Substitute

Here's a set that beats both charizards, gyarados lacking ice fang (aka most of them), kyurem-b, greninja; what I'm trying to say here is that perish song megataria is a very anti-meta pokemon. Perish song allows it to easily beat most of the things that are faster than it, Hyper beam kills several things that otherwise 2HKO you, and sub and protect help stall out perish song. EVs are for living a timid specs greninja ice beam, and the rest is dumped into defense.
 
Questions for 1v1 ladderers: How are ORAS additions working out? Is Mega Salamence as big of a threat as it is in OU?
Mence's sheer power does not come with the utility to beat down both dragonite , fear, and fairies, making it a bit problemic to use over something like dragonite, who has multiscale to go against "power through pokemon" and priority to go through ceirtain annoyers, or charizard X, who has wisp in addition to power which lets him kill the likes of magnemite and fear , or a mold breaker pokemon, which is obivous. His unique speed tying with alakazam can largely be discounted as well, as most of the other dragon's have adapted to get around encore-disable as well. I don't really see him covering the hyper defensive things that have evolved to beat the other dragons either, as his base 100 pre evo still leaves him dependent on jolly investment to sub on the same status inducers as the others. Intimidate does function almost as well as haban berry does when against other dragons, but it is the only part of the 1vs1 trinity I would want him for.
 
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Flying Types Rule! and n64lord summed up pretty nicely what keeps Mega Salamence down.

I would like to make one point in favor of Mega Salamence though, for the people that might still be trying to fit it into a 1v1 team: he can function as a more adaptable Dragonite.

Here is what I toyed with in my calculations:

Salamence @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 16 HP / 252 Attack / 240 Defense
Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Double-Edge / Return (I have not taken the time to consider threats that would cause you to prefer one over the other at this time.)
- Earthquake
- Outrage

This set-up of Mega Salamence can take a Choice Banded Adamant Dragonite with 252 Attack / 4 Defense EVs after the initial Intimidate, then Dragon Dance to out-speed and over-power Multiscale for the OHKO. When faced with Adamant Mega Mawile with 252 HP / 252 Attack / 4 HP EVs, it can just spam Earthquake for the win in just about all scenarios unless Mawile scores the highest possible rolls on Play Rough and the follow-up Sucker Punch. I did a few quick calculations with Mega Altaria as well for fun, and Mega Altaria pretty much can never win since to take hits, it loses the ability to hit hard, and to hit hard, it loses the ability to take hits. All Garchomp variants bite the dust. The Lati-Twins and Hydreigon obviously decimate this Mega Salamence given the fact that everything about it is physical. Against both Charizard forms, it can safely Dragon Dance then go for the Outrage / Double-Edge / Return. Only against a Mega Charizard X that ran a near identical EV spread with Protect, Will-O-Wisp and Outrage did this Mega Salamence have issues in my calculations. (I know this might seem a bit weird to tailor an entire set toward beating this theoretical Mega Salamence build, but with how often I and others have been counter-teamed, I do not think it is entirely inappropriate to consider even the most obscure and impractical sets!)

Again, I keep in mind what Flying Types Rule! and n64lord stated because variations in the EV spreads of Dragonite and Mawile utterly wreck this Mega Salamence with which I was tinkering. Furthermore, I only talked about Dragon types (and Mega Mawile) who all generally fill the same offensive roles on 1v1 teams. To that end, a considerable amount of 1v1 is tweaking EVs in "non-standard" fashions to compensate for a team's shortcomings and weaknesses. With that said, while it is certainly not a trailblazer in 1v1, I could definitely see Mega Salamence being the "Aha!" Dragon Pokémon for the player who has been trying to fill in that last gap on a 1v1 team.
 
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So guys I had completely forgotten to post it in here but
Kektus Challenge takes a visit to 1v1

What is kektus challenge? Something that started with BH to see how well one can ladder with rather... silly sets. It ended up being rather bountiful so there was intrest to 1v1 version of it and now here it is.

Understanbly the 1v1 ladder can be difficult so there is plenty of time for it and it has been tailored to fit better for the ladder.

I hope people can find some fun out of this
 
This is a set which I don't think has been created yet but works surprisingly well

Gallade (M) @ Galladite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Disable
- Encore
- Drain Punch

When most people see gallade going for protect after they use move X, they use move X again because they don't expect a disable encore set
So for example Mega-Mawile use play rough on the protect, they use play rough again but you have used disable. You then use encore to lock them into that move and drain punch it to death. The idea for this set originally came from disable encore alakazam but I found that it was to frail and would still die from a struggle against strong users such as kyurem black and mawile :/ Mega-Galade can make effective use of this set because it has a base speed of 110, respectable bulk and a strong drain punch without any investment thanks to its base 165 atk. It works well because if you are able to successfully disable encore lock them into a move they are guaranteed to lose 50% of their health thanks to struggle recoil. The other 50% of hp loss comes from drain punch with the added bonus of recovery. The only downside with this set is it won't work on the same person twice lol.

Let me know what you guys think here are some replays
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-189940415 - Against a counter coat set
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-189940983 - Against mega mawile
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-189942222 - Against mega slowbro
http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-1v1-189948949 - Against some weird dragonite set
Currently trying to get more because I don't normally save my replays :P
 
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You clearly did not read, I said the idea for the set originally came from alakazam but it was to frail defensively to even take a struggle, while retaliating back. Mega-Gallade is a much better user that can utilize drain punch and respectable bulk.
 

Illusio

Bold and Brash
You clearly did not read, I said the idea for the set originally came from alakazam but it was to frail defensively to even take a struggle, while retaliating back. Mega-Gallade is a much better user that can utilize drain punch and respectable bulk.
I must have skipped that line. However, you seem to be missing out that the main reason for Mega Alakazam is its great speed, which Mega Gallade does not have.
 
Can we please get rid of the species clause in 1v1? I can't see any good reason to have it, and there are plenty of good reasons to not have it (e.g. Char X + Char Y, different items on the same mons to make them more versatile, etc).
 
I find this works pretty good too:

Ambipom @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Last Resort
 
I know we have a list of bans in the OP, but could we also compile a list of allowed Ubers? Having them allowed without mentioning it explicitly is kind of confusing to new players.

I know that Lucarionite, Gengarite, Mawilite, Salamencite, Aegislash, and Genesect are permitted. Am I forgetting any?
 
I realize that The Immortal has already asked this question, but I feel that Mega Salamence needs to be looked at a second time now that it is no longer new to the metagame.


Megamence is a unique pokemon in 1vs1 for many reasons that all combine together to make a frightening pokemon to contend with. It's physical bulk is among the highest in the tier when combined with it's initial ability of Intimidate which makes the prospect of beating megamence with a physical attacker seem rather unlikely. Any physical attacker that can muscle through megamence's outstanding physical bulk in one hit is generally outsped and KO'd anyways by one of its nasty STAB attacks. Here are some examples of the sheer physical bulk that is carried by Mega Salamence:

-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 278-330 (83.9 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Doesn't even need any defensive investment to live a tough claws-boosted outrage from a charizard X.

-1 252+ Atk Choice Scarf Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 236-278 (71.2 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 288-338 (87 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO


Moving on now. If we can't directly take out megamence, let's try walling it. Unfortunately, several more problems arise when trying to wall megamence.
Most Salamence carry dragon dance, which boosts the already asinine power of an aerilate-boosted giga impact; this effectively makes most counter users unable to contend with megamence as long as it has a boosting move. If someone maybe tries to burn salamence, substitute is very powerful on mega salamence to avoid cooldown moves and those pesky statuses. Substitutes also shut down all FEAR pokemon from causing any harm to mega salamence. What sets megamence apart from other dragons the most is its own ability. Being given insanely powerful flying type coverage negates many normal dragon counters from being able to reliably stop Mega Salamence. Here are some such pokemon that no longer perform their dragon-walling duties:

-perish song azumarill
-mega venusaur
-sylveon
-mega gardevoir


With these things considered, lets try to take down Mega Salamence on the special side. Because of its much weaker special defense and x4 weakness to ice, megamence is much more susceptible to special attackers. However, since megamence has such amazing speed, any special attacker looking to take out megamence must either be able to take a hit and retaliate, or just outspeed it and KO it. The only special attackers that can outspeed megamence that aren't named greninja or mega manectric need to be scarfed, which further limits viable team builds. Bulky special attackers that can KO megamence and still be viable against the rest of the metagame are few and far between. The only viable bulky attackers that come to mind are sturdy magnezone, heatran (both with HP ice) and mega diancie. Keep in mind that all of this discussion relies upon a standard megamence set that does not carry defensive investment. A more defensive set with dragon dancing or something else in mind may give some HP ice users trouble.


All in all, Mega Salamence has a similar problem to greninja's presence in OU in that it is incredibly difficult to know what sort of moves it is running until it is too late. Having to try and prepare 3 pokemon for one certain pokemon with so many viable options at its disposal while also trying to cover as many other threats as possible makes it impractical to try and fully prepare for. I understand that it is basically impossible to create a team that is perfect against everything in 1vs1, but when one pokemon singlehandedly manages to influence team building to such an extent, it is hard to consider it healthy to this meta.

This pokemon deserves a suspect test at the very least, and, in my opinion, a ban. I invite further discussion.

(thanks to Rumplestiltskin for helping with creating this post)
 
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Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
Questions for 1v1 ladderers: How are ORAS additions working out? Is Mega Salamence as big of a threat as it is in OU?
To add to what Gradient Facade said, my main thoughts are that most 1v1 mons have a general weakness, like if they hit hard they take reasonable damage for being able to do so. That is not the case for megamence (it hits hard and doesn't take much damage at all from super effective hits) unless you are using mons from a very limited pool (some of which is mentioned in Gradient Facade's post). Also emphasis on that stalling or walling are out of the question if megamence has substitute and dragon dance, which is one of the most popular and successful sets.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
I realize that The Immortal has already asked this question, but I feel that Mega Salamence needs to be looked at a second time now that it is no longer new to the metagame.


Megamence is a unique pokemon in 1vs1 for many reasons that all combine together to make a frightening pokemon to contend with. It's physical bulk is among the highest in the tier when combined with it's initial ability of Intimidate which makes the prospect of beating megamence with a physical attacker seem rather unlikely. Any physical attacker that can muscle through megamence's outstanding physical bulk in one hit is generally outsped and KO'd anyways by one of its nasty STAB attacks. Here are some examples of the sheer physical bulk that is carried by Mega Salamence:

-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 278-330 (83.9 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Doesn't even need any defensive investment to live a tough claws-boosted outrage from a charizard X.

-1 252+ Atk Choice Scarf Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 236-278 (71.2 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 288-338 (87 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO


Moving on now. If we can't directly take out megamence, let's try walling it. Unfortunately, several more problems arise when trying to wall megamence.
Most Salamence carry dragon dance, which boosts the already asinine power of an aerilate-boosted giga impact; this effectively makes most counter users unable to contend with megamence as long as it has a boosting move. If someone maybe tries to burn salamence, substitute is very powerful on mega salamence to avoid cooldown moves and those pesky statuses. Substitutes also shut down all FEAR pokemon from causing any harm to mega salamence. What sets megamence apart from other dragons the most is its own ability. Being given insanely powerful flying type coverage negates many normal dragon counters from being able to reliably stop Mega Salamence. Here are some such pokemon that no longer perform their dragon-walling duties:

-perish song azumarill
-mega venusaur
-sylveon
-mega gardevoir


With these things considered, lets try to take down Mega Salamence on the special side. Because of its much weaker special defense and x4 weakness to ice, megamence is much more susceptible to special attackers. However, since megamence has such amazing speed, any special attacker looking to take out megamence must either be able to take a hit and retaliate, or just outspeed it and KO it. The only special attackers that can outspeed megamence that aren't named greninja or mega manectric need to be scarfed, which further limits viable team builds. Bulky special attackers that can KO megamence and still be viable against the rest of the metagame are few and far between. The only viable bulky attackers that come to mind are sturdy magnezone, heatran (both with HP ice) and mega diancie. Keep in mind that all of this discussion relies upon a standard megamence set that does not carry defensive investment. A more defensive set with dragon dancing or something else in mind may give some HP ice users trouble.


All in all, Mega Salamence has a similar problem to greninja's presence in OU in that it is incredibly difficult to know what sort of moves it is running until it is too late. Having to try and prepare 3 pokemon for one certain pokemon with so many viable options at its disposal while also trying to cover as many other threats as possible makes it impractical to try and fully prepare for. I understand that it is basically impossible to create a team that is perfect against everything in 1vs1, but when one pokemon singlehandedly manages to influence team building to such an extent, it is hard to consider it healthy to this meta.

This pokemon deserves a suspect test at the very least, and, in my opinion, a ban. I invite further discussion.

(thanks to Rumplestiltskin for helping with creating this post)
While Mega Salamence is certainly a powerful attacker with enough bulk to be extremely annoying if taken on head-first, I'm not sure it warrants a ban. To start with, a number of common, strong attackers handily beat it:
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 296-350 (89.4 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 88-104 (26.5 - 31.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Mega Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 192-228 (63.1 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (-1 Eq does even less, and setting up a dragon dance is pretty much gg).

4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Salamence: 552-652 (166.7 - 196.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (The choice scarf set is very common from what I've found. The rare Haban Berry Kyurem-B also wins this matchup with ease, and the somewhat gimmicky Bulky Weakness Policy set will live an outrage and KO back. Similarly, Weakness Policy Aegislash can OHKO with Shadow Ball at +2, though very good plays by the Mega Salamence player can sometimes lead to it winning).

-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 188-224 (56.7 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 145-172 (43.8 - 51.9%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO (Ok, so this one's a bit worse. For one thing most M-Gyara run outrage instead, however I find Ice Fang to be very nice as it takes care of Mega Mence while using mold breaker to destroy Dragonite. It's also an 86% chance of winning which isn't perfect, but plenty good enough TBH).

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 350-414 (105.7 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Banded Dragonite is far superior to the Scarf set you posted about, getting a number of key KOs which are very nice. Alternatively, a DD set could win the matchup as well though I feel it'd be a waste of Dnite).

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 291-343 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 397-468 (119.9 - 141.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO) -- guaranteed OHKO (Dream Eater Gengar 's infamous Specs Meloetta can happily defeat Mega Salamence, while being somewhat hard to predict due to a Perish Song/Trick Room Meloetta set also existing It does lose to the rare Sub set, however this is very uncommon).

-1 44+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Rock Wrecker vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 390-458 (117.8 - 138.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mega Salamence Outrage vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Rhyperior: 141-166 (33.2 - 39.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO (Another of DEG's sets, Choice Band Rhyperior can beat a huge number of physical attackers while taking almost no damage in return. Note that Earthquake does even less damage than outrage. The rare substitute set gets utterly destroyed by Rock Blast, another of the moves often on this set, which can 2HKO in any case).

Moreover, there are multiple ways of beating Mega Salamence without straight-up attacking it harder. For example:

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 313-369 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO (Personally I prefer putting 252 into HP and relying on its naturally high SpD stat to beat special attackers, however with charm and seismic toss the only way you're going to lose this one is a crit or the rare substitute set).

Mega Aggron and similar CounterCoat stratagies can work extremely effectively against Mega Salamence, especially those that can deal with its setup. For example, Mega Aggron running taunt will have pretty much a guaranteed win against Mega Salamence, with the rare Fire Blast still only causing a 3HKO meaning even if it is used, the Mega Salamence player will have to play very well in order to win still.

Sets not running Fire Coverage can also lose to Ferrothorn, with Leech Seed + Protect recovering back plenty from an unboosted return while Gyro Ball punishes any setup it may consider. It's far from a perfect counter, but has a good chance of winning if used well.

Other, more gimmicky sets such as Sub/Disable/Encore Alakazam can also be considered, although a good player will be able to beat these without too much trouble.

tl;dr: There are many ways of beating Mega Salamence in the current 1v1 metagame, and while it's certainly a very strong physical attacker I wouldn't say it's any more intimidating than Kyurem-B and is somewhat more predictable. It's certainly something you need to consider when building a team, but there are multiple threats that need to be considered just as carefully, such as Mega Mawile, and I would not argue that these are broken but rather defining parts of the metagame. A suspect test would be ok, however while it's perhaps the biggest threat in the current metagame I don't think it is at all close to requiring a ban.
 
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Updated the common threats based on the latest usage stats. Biggest change is that Mega Salamence has taken Mega Gyarados' spot. Other changes include: Ancient Power is now more common on Mega Charizard Y, Hyper Beam has declined in usage on Greninja, and Weakness Policy Dragonite has become as common as Choice Band.
 
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While Mega Salamence is certainly a powerful attacker with enough bulk to be extremely annoying if taken on head-first, I'm not sure it warrants a ban. To start with, a number of common, strong attackers handily beat it:
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 296-350 (89.4 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 88-104 (26.5 - 31.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 SpA Mega Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 192-228 (63.1 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (-1 Eq does even less, and setting up a dragon dance is pretty much gg).

4 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Salamence: 552-652 (166.7 - 196.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (The choice scarf set is very common from what I've found. The rare Haban Berry Kyurem-B also wins this matchup with ease, and the somewhat gimmicky Bulky Weakness Policy set will live an outrage and KO back. Similarly, Weakness Policy Aegislash can OHKO with Shadow Ball at +2, though very good plays by the Mega Salamence player can sometimes lead to it winning).

-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 188-224 (56.7 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 145-172 (43.8 - 51.9%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO (Ok, so this one's a bit worse. For one thing most M-Gyara run outrage instead, however I find Ice Fang to be very nice as it takes care of Mega Mence while using mold breaker to destroy Dragonite. It's also an 86% chance of winning which isn't perfect, but plenty good enough TBH).

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 350-414 (105.7 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Banded Dragonite is far superior to the Scarf set you posted about, getting a number of key KOs which are very nice. Alternatively, a DD set could win the matchup as well though I feel it'd be a waste of Dnite).

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 291-343 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 397-468 (119.9 - 141.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO) -- guaranteed OHKO (Dream Eater Gengar 's infamous Specs Meloetta can happily defeat Mega Salamence, while being somewhat hard to predict due to a Perish Song/Trick Room Meloetta set also existing It does lose to the rare Sub set, however this is very uncommon).

-1 44+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Rock Wrecker vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 390-458 (117.8 - 138.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mega Salamence Outrage vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Rhyperior: 141-166 (33.2 - 39.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO (Another of DEG's sets, Choice Band Rhyperior can beat a huge number of physical attackers while taking almost no damage in return. Note that Earthquake does even less damage than outrage. The rare substitute set gets utterly destroyed by Rock Blast, another of the moves often on this set, which can 2HKO in any case).

Moreover, there are multiple ways of beating Mega Salamence without straight-up attacking it harder. For example:

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 313-369 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO (Personally I prefer putting 252 into HP and relying on its naturally high SpD stat to beat special attackers, however with charm and seismic toss the only way you're going to lose this one is a crit or the rare substitute set).

Mega Aggron and similar CounterCoat stratagies can work extremely effectively against Mega Salamence, especially those that can deal with its setup. For example, Mega Aggron running taunt will have pretty much a guaranteed win against Mega Salamence, with the rare Fire Blast still only causing a 3HKO meaning even if it is used, the Mega Salamence player will have to play very well in order to win still.

Sets not running Fire Coverage can also lose to Ferrothorn, with Leech Seed + Protect recovering back plenty from an unboosted return while Gyro Ball punishes any setup it may consider. It's far from a perfect counter, but has a good chance of winning if used well.

Other, more gimmicky sets such as Sub/Disable/Encore Alakazam can also be considered, although a good player will be able to beat these without too much trouble.

tl;dr: There are many ways of beating Mega Salamence in the current 1v1 metagame, and while it's certainly a very strong physical attacker I wouldn't say it's any more intimidating than Kyurem-B and is somewhat more predictable. It's certainly something you need to consider when building a team, but there are multiple threats that need to be considered just as carefully, such as Mega Mawile, and I would not argue that these are broken but rather defining parts of the metagame. A suspect test would be ok, however while it's perhaps the biggest threat in the current metagame I don't think it is at all close to requiring a ban.
You bring up some good points in the pro-megamence argument, but there many things I must point out.


-The argument for meloetta is hindered by the calculation that you chose to use. Return is not a common move on megamence, who much more likely has either double edge or giga impact for as much power as possible. Also, if a trick room/perish song set is used and megamence loses to it, the set is revealed and megamence can simply go for one DD and then giga impact the next time rather than substitute.


-Choice band dragonite is also a bit shaky as a counter due to the ability to stall out outrage with substitute until dragonite gets confused and then possibly win through reliance on confusion damage; not a good proposition for megamence, but also a terrible position for dragonite to be in.


-The fact that you are looking to rhyperior for something to counter Mega Salamence only helps to show how difficult it is to face megamence with physical attacker that can be useful beyond countering one pokemon.

-Aggron will loose to a more defensive megamence (especially if it has roost).

-The ice fang mega gyarados argument is not a good one considering that megamence can live the ice fang, dragon dance, and KO offensive variants (so most).
252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 334-394 (100.9 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO


-Please don't try to say that megamence is not broken by providing a list of hard counters to it. Mega Kanga is hard countered by terrakion and put at a huge disadvantage to aegislash, but it was still banned because of how centralising it was. A similar sort of centralisation has taken place with Mega Salamence.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
You bring up some good points in the pro-megamence argument, but there many things I must point out.


-The argument for meloetta is hindered by the calculation that you chose to use. Return is not a common move on megamence, who much more likely has either double edge or giga impact for as much power as possible. Also, if a trick room/perish song set is used and megamence loses to it, the set is revealed and megamence can simply go for one DD and then giga impact the next time rather than substitute.


-Choice band dragonite is also a bit shaky as a counter due to the ability to stall out outrage with substitute until dragonite gets confused and then possibly win through reliance on confusion damage; not a good proposition for megamence, but also a terrible position for dragonite to be in.


-The fact that you are looking to rhyperior for something to counter Mega Salamence only helps to show how difficult it is to face megamence with physical attacker that can be useful beyond countering one pokemon.

-Aggron will loose to a more defensive megamence (especially if it has roost).

-The ice fang mega gyarados argument is not a good one considering that megamence can live the ice fang, dragon dance, and KO offensive variants (so most).
252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 334-394 (100.9 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO


-Please don't try to say that megamence is not broken by providing a list of hard counters to it. Mega Kanga is hard countered by terrakion and put at a huge disadvantage to aegislash, but it was still banned because of how centralising it was. A similar sort of centralisation has taken place with Mega Salamence.
Firstly, I wasn't trying to show that Mega Mence wasn't broken by providing a list of hard counters, but rather showing both that there are a large number of potential counters and that these checks and counters aren't always the obvious ones. For example, only one of the pokemon I showed was a fast ice beamer, Kyu-B. This is despite Scarf Genesect, Greninja, and pretty much anything else running a fast ice move will beat it one-on-one. I only bothered with Kyu-B because I didn't think it was particularly necessary to show two thousand pokemon holding a choice scarf and running ice beam or hidden power ice or a STAB fairy move or whatever. Similarly, I didn't post all the pokemon that can tank a hit and KO back, rather the ones that the opponent would expect to do less well against. If you've got ice punch Mega Metagross (with clear body pre-mega) then your opponent's gonna know it'll beat Mence. By showing a number of sets the opponent wouldn't expect to auto-win, (as well as a few corrections to things like scarf dragonite which is just terrible), I was aiming to show how to fit a counter onto your team rather than being forced to take slowbro just for mence.

As for Mega Mence sets, there's a few out there. Sub sets can be very strong, Giga Impact can be nice, and there's always a struggle over coverage. Substitute is somewhat common not just on Mence on the higher ladder, so Giga Impact can often be worse than Return or Double-Edge. Double-Edge is probably better than Return in most situations, however Mega Mence's bulk is highly useful to it and at times can be the thing that allows it to win. You yourself provided the following calc, which could in fact be the deciding factor were the Mence player to predict Mega Y:
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 278-330 (83.9 - 99.6%)
Mence goes first (many zard x are bulkier variants with will-o-wisp), loses HP to double-edge which doesn't KO, then suddenly this puts it in KO range for -1 zard's outrage.

It should also be mentioned that the coverage can be a problem, especially when running sub/dd sets with giga impact because lack of coverage can make these very easy to play around. No earthquake? Suddenly that heatran that expected to lose is winning. No Outrage? Every dragon everywhere beats you. No fire blast? Many well-played physical walls can beat you, even if they were expecting to lose that matchup. Roost only adds to these problems.

The Choice Band Rhyperior set seems a little strange, I'll agree, however the person who invented it is currently sitting on places 1, 4, 5, 12 and 13 on the ladder, and within the past week or two they've had #1, #2 and #3 all at once. It's an unusal set, certainly, but I think it's more a demonstration that good sets in 1v1 aren't often the same as good sets in 6v6, and it works well against a number of pokemon.

tl;dr I wouldn't say Mega Salamence is as overpowering as Mega Kanga was, as there are a larger number of checks and counters, many of which are rather common; you don't actually have to go out of your way in order to find a way to beat it. I haven't even bothered to mention a number of sets, such many ice types, most fairy types, Mega Sableye, etc, nor rather bad pokemon in the current metagame that still generally beat it, like Mega Audino, Starmie, etc.
 

DEG

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Alright, Ive been looking at what everyone is saying here and it's my turn to intervene. Mega Salamence has made a great impact in the 1v1 metagame just like TI stated in one of his post taking over Gyarados Mega. Making that ''awesome'' impact prove that there's something wrong in it, but in reality it hasn't been that dangerous to the Metagame in these past months, I'd recommend waiting more before judging on it. Mega Salamence has many hidden counters, most of them were posted, thanks to Articuno I. Ive been running 5 teams in these past months that got me as posted previously in top ladder, sitting at #1 atm and I never lost to a Mega Salamence, my teams are made with Kyurem-B, Mega Mawile, Meloetta, Rhyperior, Zard X. Yet Meloetta and Zard X finds difficulties countering it we have sitting on the other side Kyurem-B can counter even if it's not scarfed (I run a kyu-b that everyone is coyping now), Mega Mawile can do serious damage to Mega Salamence and Rhyperior can OHKO easily with great defense and resisting it's Aerilate. We also have Diancie which imo is a great toy in 1v1. As I read you guys have stated what counters it and I'm not gonna run over that again to not reapeat. Also if you need help with countering it hit me a reply or Inbox.

TL;DR: Yes Mega Salamence made a great impact but it isn't ''overcentralizing'' and broken to be banned.I'd say NO Ban
------

Since most points were stated in previous posts and all I did was running over them again I'm gonna share a quiet interesting Diancie set which can defeat common famous 1v1 Pokemon like Kyurem-B, Char X, Char Y, Gyarados, Mega Salamence... 0 IVs in Speed is for Azumarill, if you want you can make it LvL 99 t get more sure.

I'll rek u (Diancie) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Earth Power

Idea originally discovered by Karl
 
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I like pokemon that influence what your opponet picks because it looks like you will be using a popular set, but then reveal something else. Classical example is specs kyurem encouraging people to use mawile since it dosen't get by the other sets with earthpower. Same goes for the shamelessly copied bulky WP kyurem (bonus points to the guys using lvl 99 and removing speed IV ones now)
 
Troll Ram (Whimsicott) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
Level: 98
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Cotton Guard/Toxic/ HP Flying/Taunt
So how niche is this? I think we all know what this doed: kill the enemy in 8 turns while healing yourself, giving you enough HP that in 2 turns you can make a sub off anything with below-average or higher HP. The 4th move depends. Cotton Guard lets you win vs those with physical attacks that OHKO, HP Flying gives you something vs Breloom, Taunters, and Grass types. Toxic and Taunt both shut down recovery, but Toxic also allows anti-Grass types (except Venusaur and such), while Taunt can anti-stall.

So how stupid, horrible, trolly, and sadistic is this set?
 

Illusio

Bold and Brash
Troll Ram (Whimsicott) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
Level: 98
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Cotton Guard/Toxic/ HP Flying/Taunt
So how niche is this? I think we all know what this doed: kill the enemy in 8 turns while healing yourself, giving you enough HP that in 2 turns you can make a sub off anything with below-average or higher HP. The 4th move depends. Cotton Guard lets you win vs those with physical attacks that OHKO, HP Flying gives you something vs Breloom, Taunters, and Grass types. Toxic and Taunt both shut down recovery, but Toxic also allows anti-Grass types (except Venusaur and such), while Taunt can anti-stall.

So how stupid, horrible, trolly, and sadistic is this set?
Why level 98?
 
Troll Ram (Whimsicott) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
Level: 98
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Cotton Guard/Toxic/ HP Flying/Taunt
So how niche is this? I think we all know what this doed: kill the enemy in 8 turns while healing yourself, giving you enough HP that in 2 turns you can make a sub off anything with below-average or higher HP. The 4th move depends. Cotton Guard lets you win vs those with physical attacks that OHKO, HP Flying gives you something vs Breloom, Taunters, and Grass types. Toxic and Taunt both shut down recovery, but Toxic also allows anti-Grass types (except Venusaur and such), while Taunt can anti-stall.

So how stupid, horrible, trolly, and sadistic is this set?
Nothing wrong with whimsicott, although it's a little scary just because of how many popular kyurem/salamence/mawile (although iron head isn't always used) charizard megas/ meta gross, aegislash... can just rick roll you anyway with SE STAB attacks, mixed coverage, and the like. It still feels good if you screw a dragonite or chansey over, but It's being held down so much right now that people don't even need to think about it when teambuilding.
 
Nothing wrong with whimsicott, although it's a little scary just because of how many popular kyurem/salamence/mawile (although iron head isn't always used) charizard megas/ meta gross, aegislash... can just rick roll you anyway with SE STAB attacks, mixed coverage, and the like. It still feels good if you screw a dragonite or chansey over, but It's being held down so much right now that people don't even need to think about it when teambuilding.
True. And the fact that they don't think about it could lead them to their doom, but you're right. It's a gimmick. And it's countered by so many popular things that using it is very difficult. However against many things, it simply wins.

I use Greninja and Megamence, if i sac this what should I replace it with?
 
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