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I haven't read all 20 pages so I don't if someone else posted this but Furfrou has not been ranked yet.
With that being said, I recommend A/A- for it. The Choice Band set hits harder than most expect and 102 base speed outpaces the simis and most other threats in PU. Return KOs most things that don't resist it and U-Turn is excellent utility for offensive or balanced teams. At the same time, Furfrou's great bulk makes it great for more defensively minded teams. His access to Thunder Wave provides great utility too. What I think I like the most is that most attacks fail to OhKo him even with no defensive investment (like Electabuzz's Focus Blast). The lack of fighting types helps too.
I haven't read all 20 pages so I don't if someone else posted this but Furfrou has not been ranked yet.
With that being said, I recommend A/A- for it. The Choice Band set hits harder than most expect and 102 base speed outpaces the simis and most other threats in PU. Return KOs most things that don't resist it and U-Turn is excellent utility for offensive or balanced teams. At the same time, Furfrou's great bulk makes it great for more defensively minded teams. His access to Thunder Wave provides great utility too. What I think I like the most is that most attacks fail to OhKo him even with no defensive investment (like Electabuzz's Focus Blast). The lack of fighting types helps too.
I haven't read all 20 pages so I don't if someone else posted this but Furfrou has not been ranked yet.
With that being said, I recommend A/A- for it. The Choice Band set hits harder than most expect and 102 base speed outpaces the simis and most other threats in PU. Return KOs most things that don't resist it and U-Turn is excellent utility for offensive or balanced teams. At the same time, Furfrou's great bulk makes it great for more defensively minded teams. His access to Thunder Wave provides great utility too. What I think I like the most is that most attacks fail to OhKo him even with no defensive investment (like Electabuzz's Focus Blast). The lack of fighting types helps too.
Do AV Furfrou, tank everything with base 120 DEF (Fur Coat: 60 * 2) and 135 SpD (Assault Vest: 90 * 1.5) :). But yeah, Furfrou becomes a heck of a tank in FU, since most hard-hitting things in there just don't hit that hard. 252 HP / 252 DEF Furfrou can tank FU sweepers like Haxorus, Ursaring or Dweilous like mad and still hit back decently (gimmick set with Band over that?) or just T-Wave and cripple them. He also learns Cotton Guard, which utterly turns him into a beast which just won't die. If only it had something more reliable than Rest for recovery... ;).
I used Furfrou a ton (especially offensive) so I can give my thoughts. Offensive Furfrou is REALLY underwhelming. I'm sorry but it can do nothing against balance. CB Doge is good against offense, but frankly, so are Quick Feet Ursaring (faster and "immune" to status coupled with freedom and movepool), CB Hustle Raticate (slower than Dog but a tiny bit weaker than Zweilous, but with Priority and a better movepool), and Persian (who, with a Life Orb, is not much weaker than CB Doge, still has U-turn and also Priority and / or Taunt if needed, and Knock Off). Furfrou has a perk though, being quite sturdy from the physical side while faster at the same time, while specially it's not much different from QF Bear aside from not taking status damage, which is a plus... I guess? CB Furfrou is not unviable by any means, but its niche must be played knowing there are much better options out there.
Defensive is where Doge shines, but again I think you people are masturbating over it. There are two main factors that make me think Furfrou is an "alright" Pokemon defensively: a) Lack of reliable recovery move / Ability. This is HUGE. The best physical walls in the tier have recovery in some form: Quill has Synthesis and Leech Seed, Vullaby has Roost, Lapras has Water Absorb, Walrein has Aqua Ring (it is fucking annoying), Hippopotas has Slack Off, Regigigas has Drain Punch, Pumpkins have Pain Split, Synthesis AND Leech Seed, and the list goes on and on and on; while Furfrou HAS to rely on Rest or Wish Support. Not even the Knock Off argument can be used well due to the necessity of Leftovers, its only way of recovering HP. b) Its Speed. Furfrou's Speed is, for a wall with access to Twave, perfect, and that fucks it. Furfrou with Speed investment can Twave SD Sawsbuck and SD Kingler not worrying about if they're holding Lum Berry, making a "decent" check as any of those paralyzed are dead. + Def, however, can't switch on them because, on Kingler's case, +2 252+ Atk Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 176-207 (49.7 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Clear 2HKO if Lum crab, while faster is STILL 2HKOed but at least can get off a Twave after Lum is consumed, which by experience can save a game. Furthermore, being able to outspeed the monkeys and Gourgeist-Small is a feat few Pokemon can reliably do. Thunder Wave is one of Furfrou's best moves being able to pressure Offense a lot since it won't easily die, and paralyzing before action is so damn good (FYI, 252/0 2HKOes Guts Raticate with Return while Raticate fails to 2HKO back unless Furfrou switches on it, which sucks even for max Def mind you). Another issue with defensive doge that is quite bothersome is that Roar is necessary on it, otherwise Furfrou is a sitting dog to anything with Bulk Up / Calm Mind / Nasty Plot / Coil / Swords Dance / Curse / Servine / QUIVER DANCE / even f*cking Power-up Punch, especially if they have recovery. And by God, EVERY team has at least one or two Pokémon with either. Furfrou using Thunder Wave kinda stops immediate (+2) boosters but against +1/+1, if doge doesn't have Roar, it's gg. So a perfect set should be Roar/Twave/Rest/either STAB or U-Turn with enough speed to outspeed whichever threat your team fears, like NP Simisear, which brutalizes defensive teams. If Furfrou foregoes any of those three moves, the team it's in must be able to support dog. Also, Cotton Guard is a waste of moveslot if opponent has CM user (don't even think about Cotton Guard + Snarl, it didn work that good especially if facing somethng with Taunt). Again, Furfrou isn't bad, it's decent on what it does; a fast wall with phazing, decent offense and Twave; if played right and to its strenghts.
So, where does Furfrou belong on Viability Rank? Higher than Swanna Well, it's not C because its niche is most significant than the one of those likes of Emolga and Slaking (though, why is Lampent C? It deserves B at least, but that is talk for another day), but I think the competition it gets from both offensive and defensive point of view, having a niche or two over its main competitors in a struggle for a team slot. I'll suggest B-, with the most I can accept but still disagreeing being B (since circa 80% of the shit in B either deserve to be lower or higher but again, talk for another ocasion), and I'm ready to take any stones thrown at me and explain further why Furfrou is not outclassed, but not outstanding either.
Well I said A/A- based on the other Pokemon and their relative ranks. Looking at B+ and A- most of those are really underwhelming and I saw Furfrou fitting among them, if not higher (like Persian in B+ for one example). But I respect the B ranking.
Defensive is where Doge shines, but again I think you people are masturbating over it. There are two main factors that make me think Furfrou is an "alright" Pokemon defensively: a) Lack of reliable recovery move / Ability. This is HUGE. The best physical walls in the tier have recovery in some form: Quill has Synthesis and Leech Seed, Vullaby has Roost, Lapras has Water Absorb, Walrein has Aqua Ring (it is fucking annoying), Hippopotas has Slack Off, Regigigas has Drain Punch, Pumpkins have Pain Split, Synthesis AND Leech Seed, and the list goes on and on and on; while Furfrou HAS to rely on Rest or Wish Support. Not even the Knock Off argument can be used well due to the necessity of Leftovers, its only way of recovering HP.
I don't really understand how stuff like aqua ring, drain punch and even water absorb (like, really?...) is more reliable recovery than resttalk, I mean regi would love to have that over drain punch. Of course Furfrou would prefer slack off, but resttalk is perfectly serviceable in a tier where roar is incredibly powerful. It's not that reliant on leftovers and it's certainly hit far less hard by the move than vullaby and quilladin.
b) Its Speed. Furfrou's Speed is, for a wall with access to Twave, perfect, and that fucks it. Furfrou with Speed investment can Twave SD Sawsbuck and SD Kingler not worrying about if they're holding Lum Berry, making a "decent" check as any of those paralyzed are dead. + Def, however, can't switch on them because, on Kingler's case, +2 252+ Atk Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 176-207 (49.7 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. Clear 2HKO if Lum crab, while faster is STILL 2HKOed but at least can get off a Twave after Lum is consumed, which by experience can save a game. Furthermore, being able to outspeed the monkeys and Gourgeist-Small is a feat few Pokemon can reliably do. Thunder Wave is one of Furfrou's best moves being able to pressure Offense a lot since it won't easily die, and paralyzing before action is so damn good (FYI, 252/0 2HKOes Guts Raticate with Return while Raticate fails to 2HKO back unless Furfrou switches on it, which sucks even for max Def mind you). Another issue with defensive doge that is quite bothersome is that Roar is necessary on it, otherwise Furfrou is a sitting dog to anything with Bulk Up / Calm Mind / Nasty Plot / Coil / Swords Dance / Curse / Servine / QUIVER DANCE / even f*cking Power-up Punch, especially if they have recovery. And by God, EVERY team has at least one or two Pokémon with either. Furfrou using Thunder Wave kinda stops immediate (+2) boosters but against +1/+1, if doge doesn't have Roar, it's gg. So a perfect set should be Roar/Twave/Rest/either STAB or U-Turn with enough speed to outspeed whichever threat your team fears, like NP Simisear, which brutalizes defensive teams. If Furfrou foregoes any of those three moves, the team it's in must be able to support dog. Also, Cotton Guard is a waste of moveslot if opponent has CM user (don't even think about Cotton Guard + Snarl, it didn work that good especially if facing somethng with Taunt). Again, Furfrou isn't bad, it's decent on what it does; a fast wall with phazing, decent offense and Twave; if played right and to its strenghts.
I've never even used Twave on it? Talking defensively I use it on almost full stall and 90% of the time I'd rather just roar these threats out, as even when my other mons are faster they're not damaging them quite enough to not get shanked. Making them take another round of hazards and probably another attack as they come in is more useful for stall imo, and considering a huge portion of the tier can't even finish you off after taking 50%~ from Crabhammer, chances are you'll be able to rest up and be safe to come in again.
The speed tier is nice but that doesn't mean you need to fully invest in it, it's just a nice bonus. Maybe if you're running balance it would be more useful to have more speed? Honestly most of these complaints sound like they're from a balance perspective and that isn't where furfrou shines, which might be the issue.
Saying roar is necessary on it is doing the move a disservice, Furfrou is priveleged to have the move tbh. Hazards are so so powerful and bulkier setup sweepers (many of which can barely touch furfrou, I mean gogoats horn leech does like 6.5% max after leftovers lol) are so so common in the tier that it really isn't a downside that it has to use it.
I'll provide replays in a bit, but I honestly think Furfrou deserves A- just for its defensive resttalk set. I've never used its offensive ones so idk about that lol.
Do AV Furfrou, tank everything with base 120 DEF (Fur Coat: 60 * 2) and 135 SpD (Assault Vest: 90 * 1.5) :). But yeah, Furfrou becomes a heck of a tank in FU, since most hard-hitting things in there just don't hit that hard. 252 HP / 252 DEF Furfrou can tank FU sweepers like Haxorus, Ursaring or Dweilous like mad and still hit back decently (gimmick set with Band over that?) or just T-Wave and cripple them. He also learns Cotton Guard, which utterly turns him into a beast which just won't die. If only it had something more reliable than Rest for recovery... ;).
Kinda late but welcome to the forums!
A few things to keep in mind: Assault vest does NOT allow the use of non-attacking moves like Cotton guard or T-Wave. The defensive boosts from Fur coat and A-vest does not work in the way you think. it affects the actual stat and not the set Base stat.
Example: Furfrou's base defense is 60, which with no investment has a raw Stat of 156, which becomes 312 with Fur coat. Compareable to that of a defense stat of 138. Same thing with special defense, as un invested 90 base stat is 216, assault vest bumps it up too 328, which is about 146 base. A-vest is still a poor item on doge, as it Does not get the power it wants on offensive sets and looses the recovery it needs on defensive sets. TL;DR: A-vest Doge is bad and your calcs are wrong
On the hand of Doge sets, I'll have ot agree with Don. CB is very meh even on offensive teams and I dont see a reason to use it over Ursaring, who does not get cockblocked by Metang and is ''immune'' to status or Sawsuck who has Dual STAB, SD and 2 immunities. RestTalk is without doubt its best set, but it is set-up fodder for Fraxure which is super bad on defensive teams.
252 Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 178-211 (50.2 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO HOLY MOTHER OF GOD
Kinda late but welcome to the forums!
A few things to keep in mind: Assault vest does NOT allow the use of non-attacking moves like Cotton guard or T-Wave. The defensive boosts from Fur coat and A-vest does not work in the way you think. it affects the actual stat and not the set Base stat.
Example: Furfrou's base defense is 60, which with no investment has a raw Stat of 156, which becomes 312 with Fur coat. Compareable to that of a defense stat of 138. Same thing with special defense, as un invested 90 base stat is 216, assault vest bumps it up too 328, which is about 146 base. A-vest is still a poor item on doge, as it Does not get the power it wants on offensive sets and looses the recovery it needs on defensive sets. TL;DR: A-vest Doge is bad and your calcs are wrong
On the hand of Doge sets, I'll have ot agree with Don. CB is very meh even on offensive teams and I dont see a reason to use it over Ursaring, who does not get cockblocked by Metang and is ''immune'' to status or Sawsuck who has Dual STAB, SD and 2 immunities. RestTalk is without doubt its best set, but it is set-up fodder for Fraxure which is super bad on defensive teams.
252 Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 178-211 (50.2 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO HOLY MOTHER OF GOD
I kinda realised it didn't work that way, it was more generally speaking than an actual point, but thanks for pointing it out! I also know how Assault Vest works, I just completely forgot about it when talking about the set. Got over-excited, dang it.
Sure Fraxure can get past it thanks to mold breaker, but I really don't think that means it should be lingering in B- below the likes of glaceon and seaking. At the end of the day Furfrou covers pretty much the entire physical meta in one slot for stall, leaving you with easily enough space to throw wigglytuff/spritzee/clefable/klang/whatever in there to patch up the leftovers.
I don't really understand how stuff like aqua ring, drain punch and even water absorb (like, really?...) is more reliable recovery than resttalk, I mean regi would love to have that over drain punch. Of course Furfrou would prefer slack off, but resttalk is perfectly serviceable in a tier where roar is incredibly powerful. It's not that reliant on leftovers and it's certainly hit far less hard by the move than vullaby and quilladin.
On defensive Pokemon, a way to recover is fundamental, be it by full recovery moves (Synthesis, Roost, Wish, etc), items (LEFTOVERS, Black Sludge), or moves that recover HP as a side effect or only an important bit (Drain Punch, Giga Drain, Leech Seed, Aqua Ring). Heck, defensive abilities help Pokemon who normally lack those kind of moves, this is why I cited Water Absorb as it gives a solid switch-in to Water-moves while keeping pressure. Vol Absorb works similarly but only very niche Pokemon like Minum, Chinchou and Pachirisu. And Furfrou NEEDS Leftovers since it's the only way of HP recovery. It can't switch into nothing a lot of times without being forced to be a Taunt-bait. And for that matter, Quilladin IS as bulky as max Def Furfrou, and can do other things like RECOVER HP and set up Spikes. Vullaby may not have that much bulk, but has Taunt and recovery, and Defog for Spikes-less stall.
I've never even used Twave on it? Talking defensively I use it on almost full stall and 90% of the time I'd rather just roar these threats out, as even when my other mons are faster they're not damaging them quite enough to not get shanked. Making them take another round of hazards and probably another attack as they come in is more useful for stall imo, and considering a huge portion of the tier can't even finish you off after taking 50%~ from Crabhammer, chances are you'll be able to rest up and be safe to come in again.
I don't know which divinity you pray to get Roar always with Sleep Talk, I guess I should believe on it since Resttalk is unreliable both for me and other 99% of people that use a RestTalk based generally come up with 3-4 frustrating wrong moves in 10 ST uses. If Furfrou is sleeping and doesn't call for ST, then it will either die of be forced to use Rest again. Not mentioning Taunt, but Furfrou is also destroyed by several sweepers may dog call the wrong move on the wrong time, and the list contains with NP Simisear, NP Simipour, Taunt + SD Ursaring (thank Jeovah no one uses it, by God it's fucking threatenning), CM Krow, Swoobat, SD Kingler, CM Clefairy, DD Taunt Fraxure, RD Golduck, SD Raticate, Arbok, CM Duosion, Specially Based SS Huntail (> physically imo), SD Sawsbuck, Servine, BU Scraggy, Monferno (a bit subpar but beats dog) and the list goes on. And that is not talking about the chance if Roar is not called at all, which can happen and cost Furfrou's existence. While that is true to any RestTalk-reliant Pokemon, Furfou suffers from it being forced to sleep almost all the time. With Thunder Wave, Furfrou can at least incapacitate most of those threats allowing a teammate to take them on, while on RestTalk the only alternative is to have faith. And more, with Twave you can pray on hax.
The speed tier is nice but that doesn't mean you need to fully invest in it, it's just a nice bonus. Maybe if you're running balance it would be more useful to have more speed? Honestly most of these complaints sound like they're from a balance perspective and that isn't where furfrou shines, which might be the issue.
If Stall is where Furfrou is good at, why then it should be A rank with Pokemon that are good in more than two playstyles the least? Even B rank is crowded with Pokemon that can excel at numerous archetypes based on the team necessity, such as Glaceon, Hippopotas, Magcargo, Wigglytuff, Klang, Dwebble, Grumpig and Seaking. Even Chimecho, Noctowl, Swalot and Whirlipede can function and shine in multiple archetypes. RestTalk Furfrou only "works" on Stall, and even there it faces competition with Quilladin, Lapras, Vullaby and co.
Saying roar is necessary on it is doing the move a disservice, Furfrou is priveleged to have the move tbh. Hazards are so so powerful and bulkier setup sweepers (many of which can barely touch furfrou, I mean gogoats horn leech does like 6.5% max after leftovers lol) are so so common in the tier that it really isn't a downside that it has to use it.
Since when Gogoat is a good bulky set-up sweeper? It's not S because of it lol. I'm talking about real, threatenning bulky set-up sweepers that destroy Furfrou. Krow, Fraxure, Clefairy, Monferno, Arbok and more. Also, the Roar strategy only works if your team can deal with the last Pokemon, and taking advantage of that is very easy. Hell, even SubBU Goat can beat Furfrou if last Pokemon (+6 252+ Atk Gogoat Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 220-259 (62.1 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery while 0 Atk Furfrou Return vs. +6 252 HP / 0 Def Gogoat: 34-42 (7.5 - 9.3%)). That is a danger with RestTalk phazers, not only for RestTalk/Return/Roar Furfrou, but also for more common like Zweilous and I guess Parashuffle Dragonair (I'm talking about which I saw since I'm not much of a fan of RestTalk shufflers). Of course, not all teams will have something for that, but most do, and sometimes the rest of Furfrou's team is unable to deal with it.
I'll provide replays in a bit, but I honestly think Furfrou deserves A- just for its defensive resttalk set. I've never used its offensive ones so idk about that lol.
Replays prove nothing. I have tons of replays of CB Wigglytuff, GOLETT and Yanma sweep, and all those pokemon are awful, especially Yanma since it is unfortunately very bad without spin + spikes + Pursuit support. They're fun tho.
Sure Fraxure can get past it thanks to mold breaker, but I really don't think that means it should be lingering in B- below the likes of glaceon and seaking. At the end of the day Furfrou covers pretty much the entire physical meta in one slot for stall, leaving you with easily enough space to throw wigglytuff/spritzee/clefable/klang/whatever in there to patch up the leftovers.
I know it shouldn't also be along the likes of Noctowl, Swalot and Whirlipede, which are much better at their niche than Furfrou. And why should it be alongside this list:
Gabite - Reliable offensive SR user and surprisingly good sweeper with Hone Claws (fuck no SD :L) or Banded. Scarf work but it's not that strong and I feel defensive is a worse Vibrava but both are solid nonetheless. Fits on Offense and Balance pretty well. Krokorok - Good scarfer, good trapper (although slightly worse than Murkrow in some aspects but better in others, also better than... Houndour...? Stunky...?). Reliable SR user as well as Knock Off spammer to support team. Metang - Should be lower but stops Articuno and can use some unorthodox sets like RestTalk PuP (beats FURFROU and defensive shit) and CB. Also reliable SR user. Fits on balance and somewhat on offense. Quilladin - Best Spike-stacker and awesome bulky pivot. Can beat Water-type defoggers. Fits on all main archetypes. Raticate - Can SD Guts, not SD Guts or CB Hustle to destroy everything. EVERYTHING, including Furfrou. A nightmare on and against (hyper) offense/balance. Simisage - Works wonders on offense as a good wallbreaker, and NP isn't that bad. Good on (hyper) offense. Simisear - Nasty Plot destroys pretty much everything slower than it not named Grumpig depending on the coverage. Fits on (hyper) offense but also on balance.
A- Rank
Clefairy - Good Stallbreaker and utility pokemon in general. Can fit on every main archetype with ease. Gourgeist-S - Best Spinblocker although debatable if offensive is better than defensive. Fits on offense and balance, especially on spikestacking teamms, but can also fit on Stall. Heatmor - One of the best wallbreakers in FU, with unresisted Fire/Dark/Grass coverage. Nets 1/2 kills per game or incapacitates tons of Pokemon Jumpluff - Sweeper that outspeeds QD Ursaring and that can check (or counter) the masturbatingly overrated but still potent SubBU Gogoat. Don't trust in BT's set it's shit. SD Jumpluff can fit on teams with ease. Marshtomp - Excellent Buzz, Arbok and etc, while also being a reliable Stealth Rock user. counter. Has Scald, Yawn and Icy Wind/Bulldoze for support based on the team needs. Can Curse too, although lacks recovery to be effective. Fits on offense and balance in need of solid Buzz checks. Ninjask - Threatenning fast U-turn and other moves, also quite underrated but effective in BPing Speed. Fits on HO and Offensive teams who dooesn't need a Choice Scarf user Prinplup - Reliable Defogger with SR and also answer to multyple threats in the metagame. Should be B+ imho but I don't mind it here. Excellent on balance, somewhat on offense. Rampardos - It's Rampardos lol. CB/Scarf/Mixed/Lead/RP/SD, every team is weak to Rampardos in a way or another. Excellent on everything except Stall, though it a very good cleaner for semi-stall Regigigas - I and other peopleexplained in previous posts. Excellent on balance and usable in stall/semistall. Swoobat - Powerful CM user, and it also has a neat set I shall post one day. Fits on offense and balance. Vullaby - Best Defogger (for me at least) currently. Fits on all archetypes very well, it's that good. Should be a bit higher. Hell, this shit works even without Defog.
While Furfrou, based only in its RestTalk, on one and only set, it fits better with Pokemon who only have one set that is worth its niche, like Noctowl and Snover. It's not good on offense, and on balance, honestly, it's a worse Dunsparce (quite the underrated mon atm). It fits on Stall well, although so do Frillish, Hippopotas, Solrock, Quilladin, Grumpig, Tentacool, Lapras, Magcargo, Politoed, Spritzee, Clefairy, Vullaby, Murkrow, Gogoat, Gourgeist (all of the legal), Metang, Zweilous, Lickitung, Noctowl, Prinplup, Marshtomp, Lampent, Koffing (underrated gem), Meganium, Walrein and etc. It's not a stall-must as you're hyping it to be. It's a good choice but there are also other good choices who provide different niches than Furfrou do that sometimes are better for the team. This is why in FU there isn't a formula to Stall because stall can be made in various ways (Frillish and Clef are kind of a must but for me anyway, I saw good without them).
tl;dr: Furfrou fits on B-. It actually fits by C description but B- or even B if wanting to wank it more works.
Speaking of the terrifying Raticate, I am really digging the Raticate+Ursaring core that Gary briefly mentioned earlier some time ago:
Raticate @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Sucker Punch
- U-turn
- Swords Dance/Protect
Ursaring @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Facade
- Crunch
- Close Combat
We all know how terrifying Ursaring can be as a cleaner, and raticate helps wallbreak and weaken common checks and counters for Ursaring. Hell, at times even raticate can behave as a cleaner late game as it sits at a respectable speed tier. I also want to try that cb hustle set that was mentioned.
I don't know which divinity you pray to get Roar always with Sleep Talk, I guess I should believe on it since Resttalk is unreliable both for me and other 99% of people that use a RestTalk based generally come up with 3-4 frustrating wrong moves in 10 ST uses. If Furfrou is sleeping and doesn't call for ST, then it will either die of be forced to use Rest again. Not mentioning Taunt, but Furfrou is also destroyed by several sweepers may dog call the wrong move on the wrong time, and the list contains with NP Simisear, NP Simipour, Taunt + SD Ursaring (thank Jeovah no one uses it, by God it's fucking threatenning), CM Krow, Swoobat, SD Kingler, CM Clefairy, DD Taunt Fraxure, RD Golduck, SD Raticate, Arbok, CM Duosion, Specially Based SS Huntail (> physically imo), SD Sawsbuck, Servine, BU Scraggy, Monferno (a bit subpar but beats dog) and the list goes on. And that is not talking about the chance if Roar is not called at all, which can happen and cost Furfrou's existence. While that is true to any RestTalk-reliant Pokemon, Furfou suffers from it being forced to sleep almost all the time. With Thunder Wave, Furfrou can at least incapacitate most of those threats allowing a teammate to take them on, while on RestTalk the only alternative is to have faith. And more, with Twave you can pray on hax.p
I dunno why you're assuming that it'd be asleep switching in on kingler or whatever? It's not a roll, it's clicking a button. Sleeptalk just makes sure it's not complete bait for the two turns it's asleep for, it's not a case of having to roll roar every single time or you get insta killed.
Why are you bringing up special sweepers? It produces an impressive list but it's completely irrelevant, it's not Furfrous job to take care of NP simipour or Swoobat. Looking at the actual physical sweepers there:
Kingler: +2 252+ Atk Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 176-207 (49.7 - 58.4%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - phased, or if you're lucky you can invest a measly 40 points in speed and be able to roll roar while asleep and take no damage. Either way, not a huge deal.
Fraxure: Yeah we've been over this one lol.
Ratictate: +2 252 Atk Guts Raticate Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 245-288 (69.2 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - yeah lol it hurts, but can be phased or return has a decent enough chance to kill after rocks +2 rounds of burn
Arbok: +1 252+ Atk Arbok Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 118-140 (33.3 - 39.5%) -- 18.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery - easy phase, also outsped so possibility of taking no damage. More defensive sets are even easier to deal with.
Sawsbuck: +2 252 Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 209-246 (59 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - again can be phased, alternatively horn leech doesnt even 2hko, while the potential jump kick 2hkos.
Scraggy: +1 4 Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 94-112 (26.5 - 31.6%) -- 27.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery - not sure what this tends to run but lol? Even max attack isn't a guaranteed 3hko.
Monferno: 252 Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 138-163 (38.9 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery - I don't even know what this runs but yeah, a +2 Close Combat only has a 30% chance to kill after rocks... definitely not great but lol, it's a STAB super effective 120bp move and its not exactly a common mon.
^it seems to be doing pretty well there. Sure though, if it's already asleep it's a roll, but it's not a difficult thing to manage. Plus, most stall has heal bell support anyway.
If Stall is where Furfrou is good at, why then it should be A rank with Pokemon that are good in more than two playstyles the least? Even B rank is crowded with Pokemon that can excel at numerous archetypes based on the team necessity, such as Glaceon, Hippopotas, Magcargo, Wigglytuff, Klang, Dwebble, Grumpig and Seaking. Even Chimecho, Noctowl, Swalot and Whirlipede can function and shine in multiple archetypes. RestTalk Furfrou only "works" on Stall, and even there it faces competition with Quilladin, Lapras, Vullaby and co.
A Rank:Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the FU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.
I dunno where it says they need to succeed on multiple archetypes to be ranked there? But I see your point, I guess A- was overshooting it.
Since when Gogoat is a good bulky set-up sweeper? It's not S because of it lol. I'm talking about real, threatenning bulky set-up sweepers that destroy Furfrou. Krow, Fraxure, Clefairy, Monferno, Arbok and more. Also, the Roar strategy only works if your team can deal with the last Pokemon, and taking advantage of that is very easy. Hell, even SubBU Goat can beat Furfrou if last Pokemon (+6 252+ Atk Gogoat Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 220-259 (62.1 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery while 0 Atk Furfrou Return vs. +6 252 HP / 0 Def Gogoat: 34-42 (7.5 - 9.3%)). That is a danger with RestTalk phazers, not only for RestTalk/Return/Roar Furfrou, but also for more common like Zweilous and I guess Parashuffle Dragonair (I'm talking about which I saw since I'm not much of a fan of RestTalk shufflers). Of course, not all teams will have something for that, but most do, and sometimes the rest of Furfrou's team is unable to deal with it.
I didn't say Gogoat was a good bulky setup sweeper, I just used it as an example because it's one of the most common, imo it's pretty damn meh. Again, dunno why you're listing special sweepers (although it deals well enough with clefairy because it's pissweak lol), but I've been over how it deals with the others.
Errr yes, thank you for informing me of the game mechanics that roar doesn't work on last poke situations. That's a flaw with any user of the move, and stall will often have its own wincon to use in that situation- again this isn't something that is relevant to furfrou's viability.
While Furfrou, based only in its RestTalk, on one and only set, it fits better with Pokemon who only have one set that is worth its niche, like Noctowl and Snover. It's not good on offense, and on balance, honestly, it's a worse Dunsparce (quite the underrated mon atm). It fits on Stall well, although so do Frillish, Hippopotas, Solrock, Quilladin, Grumpig, Tentacool, Lapras, Magcargo, Politoed, Spritzee, Clefairy, Vullaby, Murkrow, Gogoat, Gourgeist (all of the legal), Metang, Zweilous, Lickitung, Noctowl, Prinplup, Marshtomp, Lampent, Koffing (underrated gem), Meganium, Walrein and etc. It's not a stall-must as you're hyping it to be. It's a good choice but there are also other good choices who provide different niches than Furfrou do that sometimes are better for the team. This is why in FU there isn't a formula to Stall because stall can be made in various ways (Frillish and Clef are kind of a must but for me anyway, I saw good without them).
tl;dr: Furfrou fits on B-. It actually fits by C description but B- or even B if wanting to wank it more works.
You're still listing all these mons to prove non existent points. Yes those mons fit on stall... that doesn't mean furfrou doesn't? Not really sure what point you're trying to make here, since not a single mon you listed does the same things as furfrou. I never said it was a stall-must, I just said it walls so much stuff in one slot that it's really useful mon to have. I've made stall without furfrou that works fine, it's just that in teams that use it it always pulls its weight with little support besides hazards.
Sure, put it in B or whatever, but saying it belongs in C is severely underselling it.
Man, all this stuff trashing furfrou just cuz I put it on B- rank jeez, yall need to chill now, I think we can all understand what furfrou can and can't do now
Here's a cool little core Don lent me a while ago.
Armstrong (Arbok) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 96 HP / 240 Atk / 4 SpD / 168 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Coil
GOLF WANG RETURNS (Mightyena) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Play Rough
- Crunch
- Iron Tail
The reason that this is a pretty nice core is that Mightyena is a really good cleaner against more offensive teams with it's STAB priority and nearly unresisted coverage in Dark and Fairy while Arbok can force switches with Intimidate and set up a Sub or use stuff like Clefairy as set-up fodder without fear of status in exchange for Sucker Punch which makes Arbok slightly less good against offensive teams (although it can still pack a punch against them). Also Arbok resists Fighting which is something Mightyena is weak to but Fighting types aren't that big in FU. The 168 EVs are for outspeeding positive Rampardos.
Also not sure if this pokemon has received a mention in this thread but i think if anyone is interested in a pretty good counter to those powerful Electabuzz in FU, Minun does that job. Ill post my spread below
Minun @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD (you could also invest in Speed as it helps in just outspeeding slower pokes that may want to taunt just for the lols)
Calm Nature
- Wish
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Toxic
With this spread not only can it stop a Volt-Switch from an Electabuzz dead in its tracks, it also can take hits decently well. I use this set in my current FU team and it has yet to disappoint. Its able to pass off Wishes to help support the team and also can toxic to help wear down walls such as Gourgeist-Large. Hidden Power Ice is just for coverage and Volt Switch is also there for a potential Wish pass-off and STAB.
Below is how it deals against an Electabuzz:
Scarfed Electabuzz:
252 SpA Electabuzz Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Minun: 93-110 (28.7 - 34%) -- 98.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
(93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 110)
252 SpA Electabuzz Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Minun: 47-56 (14.5 - 17.3%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
(47, 48, 48, 49, 49, 50, 50, 51, 52, 52, 53, 53, 54, 54, 55, 56)
252 SpA Electabuzz Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Minun: 70-83 (21.6 - 25.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
(70, 71, 72, 73, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83)
Specs Elecabuzz
252 SpA Choice Specs Electabuzz Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Minun: 139-164 (43 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(139, 141, 142, 144, 145, 147, 149, 150, 152, 154, 155, 157, 159, 160, 162, 164)
252 SpA Choice Specs Electabuzz Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Minun: 70-83 (21.6 - 25.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
(70, 71, 72, 73, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83)
252 SpA Choice Specs Electabuzz Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Minun: 104-123 (32.1 - 38%) -- 0.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(104, 105, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 113, 114, 115, 116, 118, 119, 120, 121, 123)
So as you can see this little Pikachu Gen-3 rip off can tank an Electabuzz pretty well and i think its because of this that it deserves some sort of recognition. I can post other calcs if anyone else is interested in this. As far as counters for this set....
Krokorok: While I have used this set, this guy is a definite pain in the behind for this set simply due to it being able to outspeed Minun in most of the sets used in FU, particularly a scarfed set
Anything with Psyshock, primarily both Meowstics, can do some damage to Minun IF they use Psyshock
Most Physical attackers also can bully this cutie pie as you can see by the spread above it does not have any investment in Defense.
So then it leaves the question.... What does it work well with?
Gourgeist-Large (Best Wall in the tier IMO): Right off the bat, with Gourgeist-Large being as fat as it is it is sure to tank physical attacks that Minun cannot. Also its able to help Minun with Will-O-wisps. From my experience, using these two together has proven to be a fairly solid core that can counter a lot of the big time threats in this tier. Though one big issue that still remains is Krokorok since Gourgeist is weak to its Dark attacks and Minun is weak to its Ground attacks.
Physically Defensive Eviolite Prinpulp (Another fantastic wall):This little guy can also tank all of the hits and in tandem these two can cause some real trouble, especially if you run Stealth Rocks on Prinpulp all that chip damage starts to add up over time and along with potential status aliments on the opponents pokes, your going to tank all of the things. Prinpulp can also draw out any Electabuzz looking to blow you up on the spot and give Minun a few switch in and also perhaps some HP right back. It also draws out any other sneaky pokes that pack an electric type attack or even a grass type attack as Minun can also tank those attacks.
Overall, this little guy is quite the special wall in FU and hopefully people will begin to realize the potential this little booger has to offer!
It's easy to get caught up in Whiscash's access to the rare DDance, but honestly that set has too many answers in this meta - Quilladin, Gourgeist, Gogoat, faster scarfers, even just physically bulky stuff like Kingler. So why not take advantage of all of that with a lure set like this one? Quick sample of what this can do:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Whiscash Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Small: 286-338 (91 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
The Speed is to outspeed uninvested Gogoat so you can 2HKO without fear, and the rest goes into Def so that this thing can tank hits like a pro (you can probably take a few from Def into Spe if you want to speed creep). Simple, yet very effective.
I haven't read all posts, so I may have missed a few things, but I have noticed that the banlist for this is really unorganized. So, for reasons involving too much free time, I have organized it myself, in alphabetical order. Originally did this for myself, but figured it'd be easier to look at this for some people instead of scrolling through a pastebin. So, here is banlist. Hope it helps at least someone.
Aurorus, Avalugg, Barbaracle, Basculin, Bastiodon, Beheeyem, Bouffalant, Camerupt, Carbink, Carracosta, Chatot, Drifblim, Dodrio, Dusclops, Dusknoir, Electrode, Flareon, Floatzel, Garbodor, Glalie, Golen, Gourgeist-S, Haunter, Kadabra, Kecleon, Leafeon, Lickylicky, Machoke, Mantine, Marowak, Misdreavus, Mr. Mime, Ninetales, Pelipper, Piloswine, Poliwrath, Purugly, Regice, Relicanth, Roselia, Rotom-F, Raichu, Scyther, Serperior, Sneasel, Stoutland, Stunfisk, Tangela, Tauros, Throh, Togetic, Torterra, Victreebel, Vigoroth, Zebstrika
Sticky Web
That's kind of a poor example though because Slaking in general isn't all that relevant. I mean yeah it hits extremely hard and it's decently fast/bulky, but just like in every tier its in once it gets a kill, it's basically set up fodder for anything and everything. Other Pokemon like Gourgeist-S basically get a free switch into it anyway, and having to predict with something like Slaking is really annoying and not that great. I mean sure Slaking does do well against more balanced teams that lack the offensive pressure or set up sweepers, but against offense Slaking opens the door for something like Sub Coil Arbok, DD Fraxure, Sub BU Gogoat, Belly Drum Linoone, Agility Cuno, and against other teams it could give your opponent a free Defog, Rapid Spin, or opportunity to set up Spikes, Rocks, or webs. Slaking on paper looks really strong and broken, but against a decent player using a well built team, Slaking will most of the time be a viability that in the end, can cost you the match.
Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle. Wigglytuff is undoubtedly the best anti-Defog till Purugly fall again. People tend to use Defensive Tuff though, which I think it's extremely outclassed by Clefairy and Spritzee. Offensive LO Wigglytuff is a favorite set of mine in teams I can't fit SR anywhere else, but Specs is so sexy because good luck trying to tank a +2 Spec'd mon, aside from being a great early-game wallbreaker. STABs are powerful and Fire Blast fucks Metang and other Steels. Psychic is nice in last slot to catch mainly Swalot and Tentacool on the switch-in, as well as destroying Arbok if it wants to come in the balloon Pokémon; however Focus Blast is also nice to hit Lairon, Magcargo, and bulky Fighting-weak shit like Lapras, Walrein and Munchlax. So this thing destroys anything that even tries to Defog at it, sometimes not even needing to get a Defog boost.
I don't need to show Vullaby nor Vibrava...
252+ SpA Choice Specs Wigglytuff Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Prinplup: 153-180 (46.2 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Wigglytuff Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Noctowl: 268-316 (66.5 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(Noctowl is an awesome defogger for being able to take it well, but can't Defog against Tuff. Use Noctowl more)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Wigglytuff Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Articuno: 244-288 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Wigglytuff Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Swanna: 262-310 (90 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO (take notion however, the ass swan can OHKO with Hurricane based on a roll and luck)
64 Spe outspeeds 16 Spe Metang and Prinplup. 192 is placed on Defense to survive against some physical assaults, but depending on the need it can be shifted to SDef, especially to deal with all dem special Defoggers better. Don't invest in Wigglytuff's HP as it won't help it taking hits better due its nonproportional HP. 252 Atk Mold Breaker Fraxure Iron Tail vs. 0 HP / 192 Def Wigglytuff: 274-324 (65 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Seviper Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 192 Def Wigglytuff: 296-350 (70.3 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 192 Def Wigglytuff: 310-366 (73.6 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kingler Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 192 Def Wigglytuff: 331-391 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous Superpower vs. 0 HP / 192 Def Wigglytuff: 328-386 (77.9 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(CB Zweilous is kinda meh, but it shows Wigglytuff's bulk)
252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask Return vs. 0 HP / 192 Def Wigglytuff: 193-228 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 52.3% chance to 2HKO (people use Return on it :/ )
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On another note, Gary2346 will be away due to his job, and since he is the one that keeps the viability rank up to date, it'll be useless to discuss whether Magcargo deserves to be in A- or Scraggy on B (examples based on my opinion). Use the Piratepad please to discuss (un)viability and let's focus on the current state of the metagame in this thread until the OP returns.
Talking about Linoone, Has anybody tried the Band set? it was pretty good in gen 5 PU as a cleaner against HO teams, but I have yet to use it in gen 6.
Sum calcs that look fun
252+ Atk Choice Band Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simisear: 210-247 (72.1 - 84.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninjask: 268-316 (101.9 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Linoone Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Fraxure: 163-193 (59.7 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Electabuzz: 151-178 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Linoone Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Gourgeist-Small: 138-164 (43.9 - 52.2%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Linoone Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Marshtomp: 232-276 (67.4 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Linoone Seed Bomb vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Prinplup: 176-208 (53.1 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Also Metang is so bulky it retarded
252+ Atk Choice Band Linoone Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Metang: 80-96 (24.7 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock ._.
Talking about Linoone, Has anybody tried the Band set? it was pretty good in gen 5 PU as a cleaner against HO teams, but I have yet to use it in gen 6.
Sum calcs that look fun
252+ Atk Choice Band Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simisear: 210-247 (72.1 - 84.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninjask: 268-316 (101.9 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Linoone Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Fraxure: 163-193 (59.7 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Electabuzz: 151-178 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Linoone Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Gourgeist-Small: 138-164 (43.9 - 52.2%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Linoone Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Marshtomp: 232-276 (67.4 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Linoone Seed Bomb vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Prinplup: 176-208 (53.1 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Also Metang is so bulky it retarded
252+ Atk Choice Band Linoone Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Metang: 80-96 (24.7 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock ._.
Linoone learns Switcheroo, so I would slash it somewhere if you ask me. It should work especially against more bulky teams which can handle this set easily and it won't do that much work against them without it. This way you may at least cripple one wall to make it literally unusuable for the rest of the game. Also in a metagame where LOTS of stuff carry Eviolite this move option sound even better.
Yeah, I'd definitely agree with switcheroo somewhere on that set, its such a good move in a tier full of eviolite users and not even any megas to absorb the trick. On the subject of choice tricking, here's a nice mon I don't see much of:
Meowstic-F (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Competitive (or infiltrator for extra trick shenanigans if you really want)
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Dark Pulse
- Thunderbolt/Signal Beam/whatever
- Trick
Meowstic sits at a really nice speed tier of 104 that lets it outrun the likes of the monkeys, raticate, articuno and murkrow. With a decent spattk and STAB in FU it does work against more offensively inclined teams that struggle to deal with its coverage and power, especially as it can customise its last slot to hit whatever common dark-type switchins they might have for it - thunderbolt for murkrow, signal beam for mightyena, zweilous and krok.
However, due to its only-decent spattk stat meowstic struggles to do work against defensive teams, and thats where trick comes in. As said above, trick is such a great move in FU and you're basically guaranteed to cripple a mon with it. Furthermore, Meowstic tends to draw in bulky steels like metang and klang who are subsequently crippled by trick, allowing things like normal and ice spammers to have a significantly easier time to work through teams.
And then there's the cherry on top, Competitive, which lets you screw over defoggers and take advantage of intimidators like Krok and Arbok. Its special attack is only like 2 points less than wigglytuff's, and psychic the same power as hyper voice, so I won't bother with calcs; just look at the wigglytuff post further up for an idea (you will need thunderbolt to get past vullaby though). It's also good as rocks help in getting clean 1hkos on the likes of the simis and swanna, so keeping them up gives it an easier time.
So yeah, a competitive abuser whose niche over wigglytuff is way better speed and access to trick :>
Pretty much a standard Frogadier set. Hydro Pump has great overall power hitting several of types for good damage, Ice Beam hits Dragons such as Fraxure, Gabite, because of excellent coverage (also hits Gogoat), U-turn to switch out of its checks and counters and allows Frogadier to forme a voltTurn core with something like Electabuzz, and that's basically it. But, I put Rock Slide to basically hit Articuno for most likely the OHKO, because that thing was just a threat and Frogadier couldn't stand up to it. Spread ups the chance of OHKOing Articuno before Rocks.
Hey I'm back for a day and then will be permanently back on Monday, so yeah. I'm going to read all the posts and update the ranking thread significantly seeing as how a decent amount has been discussed in my absence. I'll edit this post with the updates when I'm finished.
Also the next round of suspects is coming up. I'm going to allow the community to potentially nominate Pokemon they think should be suspected, although it's not guaranteed it will get suspected but if you put forth a valid enough argument for it then there's a strong possibility. All that I know so far is that Fraxure, Kingler, and Sticky Web are definitely 100% going to be suspected again because of how close the voting was last time. Other Pokemon such as E-Buzz and Gogoat were unanimously deemed not broken so they will not be suspected again anytime soon, so don't bother nominating them.
