ORAS In-game Tier List - Read Post #324

[Detective Barricade]

Discrediting that Salamence was even mentioned...

The reason I ask is because Sludge Bomb has an awkward availability. Though it is available after defeating Norman it is more convenient to grab after you defeat Winona. It's minor, but I just wanted to be sure on what's going on.

Anyway, the reason I asked a bit was because of Tentacool. Its position is rather awkward because, in theory, it seems decent for A Tier but things just hold it back. It starts rather rough with only Poison Sting and comes at Level 5 when your team has 5-10 levels on it and doesn't really get anything good until Level 10 (Acid) and 16 (Water Pulse). Once 16 it's holding its own, but then we hit Tentacruel and while Surf is great it likes Ice Beam for Golbat / Drake. Dazzling Gleam helps it out a lot, though, and having STAB Sludge Bomb usually takes care of the Grass-types in the game.

This kind of applies with Crobat too. Actually Crobat is pretty strong but outside of field presence it only has one gym advantage. This also applies to Tentacool (Tate and Liza are to a point).

I think a good idea at this point is to clearly define an A tier Pokemon (aside from Treecko) and maybe do side-by-side comparisons on them.

A good example of what constitutes a solid A and a solid S tier Pokemon for this list would be handy. I'm not entirely convinced Electrike warrants S. Then again, I got mine through DexNav (level 22 with Ice Fang) and never thought to teach it Overheat, so I'm not really qualified to talk that much about it.

I kind of imagine Mawile being a bit of a pain to catch, (have to backtrack thanks to needing Mach Bike to reach the lower levels of Granite Cave and Omega Ruby only) and isn't really doing much until after getting the Mega Bracelet. I'm certain Huge Power + SD and most of the physical moves Mawile has will decimate nearly anything that can't wipe it out on that turn of setup, but... is it enough for S? I'd be happy with A, personally. I can't say that much since I didn't use it in my play through, so...

 

[DHR-107]

A good example of what constitutes a solid A and a solid S tier Pokemon for this list would be handy. I'm not entirely convinced Electrike warrants S. Then again, I got mine through DexNav (level 22 with Ice Fang) and never thought to teach it Overheat, so I'm not really qualified to talk that much about it.

Electrike is not S tier material. It's just not. It's weak and it doesn't learn a good electric move until after Wattson (which forces a switch) and then you have to wait until Lv 29 (or 30 if you let evolve) to get Discharge. Even using the Charge Beam TM it's really not that strong. I used one in my first game and until I got the megastone it was often dead weight. The Megastone does make it significantly better, but it's still not S tier. It just takes too long to go from Electrike - Manectric and you're shit that entire time.

 

[Lucchini]

I don't see the point in determining a minimum time for game's completion, and 6 hours might still be too fast considering some of us may have up to 6 Pokemon to keep trained up to be in playable shape, so we're not really skipping too many trainers.

You get Charge Beam before Wattson, and that's around the time you first get your Electrike too. How strong is 'that strong'? An evolution at L26 is acceptable with Electrike's stats and is far from being the worst in the Hoenn cast.

Nobody has actually suggested Electrike to be in S-tier, have we? Colonel M suggested B-tier but that seems like a different extremity for a mon with 135 sp. atk/135 spd and good enough (for A-tier) coverage with electric and fire.

Electrike is probably really comparable with Magnemite. Magnemite has the superior typing of the two, but Electrike has a significant advantage in speed. Magnezone and Mega Manectric happen to share the same sp. atk. stat, too.

Whismur got into A tier with such ease, but does he deserve to be there? No super-effective STAB against anything, and has to wait a really long time to evolve (will get there by gym 8 at best I'm assuming), and when it's evolved it has questionable E4 matchups and is slow for most of the game. Offensive stats aren't necessarily that high.

 

[Detective Barricade]

I don't see the point in determining a minimum time for game's completion, and 6 hours might still be too fast considering some of us may have up to 6 Pokemon to keep trained up to be in playable shape, so we're not really skipping too many trainers.

You get Charge Beam before Wattson, and that's around the time you first get your Electrike too. How strong is 'that strong'? An evolution at L26 is acceptable with Electrike's stats and is far from being the worst in the Hoenn cast.

Nobody has actually suggested Electrike to be in S-tier, have we? Colonel M suggested B-tier but that seems like a different extremity for a mon with 135 sp. atk/135 spd and good enough (for A-tier) coverage with electric and fire.

Electrike is probably really comparable with Magnemite. Magnemite has the superior typing of the two, but Electrike has a significant advantage in speed. Magnezone and Mega Manectric happen to share the same sp. atk. stat, too.

Whismur got into A tier with such ease, but does he deserve to be there? No super-effective STAB against anything, and has to wait a really long time to evolve (will get there by gym 8 at best I'm assuming), and when it's evolved it has questionable E4 matchups and is slow for most of the game. Offensive stats aren't necessarily that high.

Indeed, there are much worse Electric types than Electrike... A pair of them on the same route it's first found on. Celever seems to think it may warrant S tier, but I'm agreeing with DHR-107 that it's just not good enough for that.

 

[Lucchini]

Before or around the same time as Electrike, you can get Voltorb, Minun, Plusle, Pikachu, and they're all worse than Electrike. However, and this is one of the few cases when we can say it, 'we don't care Pokemon to one another'.

Also, Cosplay Pikachu is arguably worse than regular Pikachu because that one can be evolved into Raichu. The cosplay moves don't secure any good matchups to save it, and it still can't take a hit. They pushed Thunderbolt all the way down in its natural movepool in ORAS, and I actually used a Pika in XY, catching one with Light Ball and keeping it in that form until gym 6 or so, where it just wasn't usable anymore. It was just okay in XY, so I don't see B-tier working out for it in ORAS with poor availability of the Light Ball.

 

[Mulan15262]

I think that Aron should be moved up to B-tier, at least, if not higher.

In my run Aron was as useful as, if not more useful, than Zigzagoon (which I got with Charm as a nice egg move) or Seedot (which I got with Beat Up as a nice egg move), and my Aron had no egg moves and I didn't even catch it until I was on my way to fight Flannery (when you can catch it before Wattson). By the time I reached Norman, my Aron was as big a part of my team as my Manectric (which is ranked A-tier and was a higher level at the time). It also learns Protect naturally so it is easy to beat Norman's two Slaking with it.

Its typing and high stats gives it a good mach-up against most gym leaders from Flannery through Tate and Liza, as well as Glacia and Drake at the E4, and Mega Aggron (which you should have by E4) can take care of Steven's Aggron pretty well. Once you get the Aggronite, you don't even have to worry about Fighting and Ground type moves since they are mostly physical and its high defense stat, loss of its Rock typing, and Filter when it mega-evolves makes those moves not too bad.

 

[Detective Barricade]

I think that Aron should be moved up to B-tier, at least, if not higher.

In my run Aron was as useful as, if not more useful, than Zigzagoon (which I got with Charm as a nice egg move) or Seedot (which I got with Beat Up as a nice egg move), and my Aron had no egg moves and I didn't even catch it until I was on my way to fight Flannery (when you can catch it before Brawly). By the time I reached Norman, my Aron was as big a part of my team as my Manectric (which is ranked A-tier and was a higher level at the time). It also learns Protect naturally so it is easy to beat Norman's two Slaking with it.

Its typing and high stats gives it a good mach-up against most gym leaders from Flannery through Tate and Liza, as well as Glacia and Drake at the E4, and Mega Aggron (which you should have by E4) can take care of Steven's Aggron pretty well. Once you get the Aggronite, you don't even have to worry about Fighting and Ground type moves since they are mostly physical and its high defense stat, loss of its Rock typing, and Filter when it mega-evolves makes those moves not too bad.

You can't catch Aron before Brawly, as you need the Mach Bike this time to get to the lower levels of Granite Cave. I love Aggron, but it's experience growth is painfully slow, and is of little help against Flannery and her overwhelming Overheat attacks. (not to mention Numel's Earth Power) It's also very slow, so is going to be taking hits before it can do anything. It's alright, and Aggronite can be very useful, but I feel it's fine where it currently sits.

 

[Lucchini]

(when you can catch it before Brawly).

Can you though?

 

[Jaguar360]

I'm about to go into Foretree Gym, so I'll comment on the Pokemon I've been using so far and their rankings (Treecko, Aron, Marill, Latias, Carvanha, Linoone, Tailow, Numel, Beautifly and Ralts). I've barely used the Exp. Share and haven't used anything too special that I've gotten with DexNav.

Treecko's been covered pretty well so far and I agree with its placement in A. I honestly think it could be S, but I understand the counterarguments against it, so I won't start that again. I waited until level 21 to evolve it so that I could get Giga Drain and it was well worth it and didn't take much effort or time at all. Its decent Attack stat allows it to use its great coverage in Rock Tomb, Low Sweep, Aerial Ace and Dig quite well, though it's going to be using Giga Drain most of the time, which is good since it's its best and one of its strongest moves throughout the game. It tends to get the right OHKOs and 2HKOs on most of its targets (maybe because mine had a Rash nature) and always hits first.

I second Aron's rise to B. While it has those nasty 4x weaknesses to Fighting and Ground and a Water weakness, its plethora of resistances make up for this and it has been very valuable to the team. While Mulan was wrong about being able to catch it before Brawly, it's not really inefficient to ride your Mach Bike down to the port by Slateport and head back to Granite Cave. Aron's gym matches are pretty good with Bulldoze for Wattson, Rock STAB for Flannery, a hilariously good matchup against Norman and great matchups against Winona and the twins. While I can see the impending water routes being bad for Lairon/Aggron, it excels pretty much everywhere else. It also has pretty poor speed, but it doesn't really need it when it's so bulky and it can be saved by Rock Polish or a Quick Claw. It's power and coverage are also good, with a great Attack stat and perfect coverage with Steel + Rock + Ground.

Marill is amazing with Huge Power and its wonderful Water/Fairy typing. It hits very hard with its physical STABs, has good bulk, is easy to get access to, and provides good HM support since it is capable of learning 5 out of the 7. Definite S.

Latias is really good and could be S or A rank. It is obviously easy to obtain since it's a mandatory gift Pokemon and comes with its Mega Stone right away. It can learn Surf right away as a coverage move and HM support and it comes close to the time where you get access to the Move Deleter as well. Dragon Breath and Thunder Wave are there for paralysis and are helpful for catching Pokemon and in battle as well. Recover helps to conserve Potions as well, making it a viable option. It may be because my Latias' Sp. Atk IV is between 0 and 3, but it sometimes misses some needed OHKOs with the lowish base power of its initial moves, though the Mega Evolution hits hard enough most of the time. Another minor point against it is that it's a pain to soft reset for, but I'm not sure if that should count. I'm kind of leaning towards A, but S is definitely fine.

I've barely used my Sharpedo so far since I just caught and evolved it, but it's been pretty good. The Surfing speed is godly when it evolves and it hits fairly hard from my short experience with it. Rough Skin is pretty good most of the time, though it can be a con sometimes when you want to catch a Pokemon (not that relevant of a con at all though). A is looking good.

Linoone is solid. It provides excellent team support with Pickup and HMs and can take out a Pokemon or two despite its weak firepower. However, it's still weak and may lose its luster as the game goes on. B is appropriate for it.

I dropped Swellow from my team around Wattson's gym as I didn't see much value in it after Brawly. It's pretty effective against most trainers thanks to its high Speed and good secondary STAB typing, but its gym matchups are pretty poor and, like Linoone, it doesn't hit very hard. It is one of the better users of Fly pre-Eon flute and one of the earlier Pokemon to get though so B could be okay, but I think a drop to C could happen as well. It looks like it will need Boomburst or Brave Bird to perform to its fullest.

Numel's good, pretty similar to Aron in some ways actually. It is one of the few Pokemon with a Fire typing in Hoenn and probably the best choice for a non-Torchic fire type thanks to its good secondary Ground typing offensively and defensively, moderate bulk and access to excellent moves early on in Earth Power and Lava Plume. Fire + Ground + Rock makes for perfect coverage, so that's also nice. However, its 4x Water weaknesses and low speed leave it useless on Water routes, so, it is less useful between Lilycove and Sootopolis aside from Tate & Liza and Shoal Cave (I haven't gotten to these parts yet, so I could be wrong about this). A rank is perfect for it though since it's the best fire type and is very strong.

Beautifly has surprised me in this game. While its Gym matchups are poor mid-game, but is very good against trainers and wild Pokemon. It hits surprisingly hard with Air Cutter and Silver Wind and Stun Spore makes it a great choice for catching Pokemon. Pokemon Rangers, Campers, Psychics, Battle Girls and Swimmers all fold to it and I haven't even seen its full potential since I haven't gotten Quiver Dance yet. I'd actually like to see it move up to A because it's just so solid in this game.

My experience with Ralts has been a bit odd. I caught a Male Lonely Ralts and intended on evolving it into Gallade. Well, considering Gallade's current E ranking, I think everyone knows how that worked out. :( But I'm stubborn, so I'm actually going to make myself suffer and wait until after Mossdeep to evolve my level 31 Kirlia into Gallade. Aside from that, Ralts/Kirlia is pretty decent because of its STAB combo, though their stats are lacking since they are frail and slow and they level up slowly (same goes for Aron, but it was less noticeable with her for some reason). I could see a drop to B for Gardevoir because of that early game stuff with Ralts and Kirlia, but I haven't used it in ORAS so I'm probably underestimating how great Gardevoir is once it evolves.

I'm gonna continue playing and refine my opinions for now, but I just wanted to get that out.

 

[Colonel M]

Whismur actually slipped under my radar and I do actually disagree with it being A Tier. Whismur is an average Pokemon. It has a wide movepool and can hit well on both spectrums but it is godawful slow and mediocre durability wise. It does horrible against Roxanne and Brawly and... does it even have an advantage against Wattson? All I can see it do is PuP and Bulldoze. Guess thats worth a minor award. I wouldnt pit this thing against Flannery - Sunny Day and Overheat likely wreck this fucker and I dont see it getting through Torkoal like ever. Maybe Slugma / Numel. Crap against Norman - which is notable because he's probably the hardest of the gym leaders IMO. Might... do something against Winona and Tate / Liza? Probably only gets a real standout once its Exploud. Guess once it is Exploud it does notable damage with Boomburst - hell probably levels Sydney alone with that.

Sorry. I dont even see this guy over someone like Geodude and, to choose between Whismur and Electrike in A I would choose Electrike any day of the week. Electrike hits its power spike much faster (it cant spam Mega though Manectric is by no means weak).

Ill look at Stage 7_4 and others arguments in a bit though since they argued it for A.

 

[Lucchini]

Has anybody tried getting a Dawn Stone at the earliest possible convenience yet? 'Cause I think Gallade could have B-ish tier performance with the difficulty of its evolution taken into account, but I can't estimate how much time it would take to get the stone.

 

[Detective Barricade]

Has anybody tried getting a Dawn Stone at the earliest possible convenience yet? 'Cause I think Gallade could have B-ish tier performance with the difficulty of its evolution taken into account, but I can't estimate how much time it would take to get the stone.

I thought the earliest possible convenience was at the end of Victory Road, from Wally after beating him and his Mega Gallade, thus why Gallade and Froslass are basically at the bottom of the barrel...

 

[Colonel M]

I thought the earliest possible convenience was at the end of Victory Road, from Wally after beating him and his Mega Gallade, thus why Gallade and Froslass are basically at the bottom of the barrel...

There is a way from a trainer but I don't know if it is purely based on luck from the rematch or what.

 

[Stellar]

There is a 5% chance you will get a Dawn Stone after rematching Mysterious Sisters Scall & Ion in Sea Mauville.

 

[Jaguar360]

Has anybody tried getting a Dawn Stone at the earliest possible convenience yet? 'Cause I think Gallade could have B-ish tier performance with the difficulty of its evolution taken into account, but I can't estimate how much time it would take to get the stone.

The earliest you can get it is by having a rematch with a couple in Sea Mauville, but you need Dive to access that area and only have a 5% chance of getting the Dawn Stone when you rematch them. Pretty annoying. -_-

EDIT: Greninja'd

 

[Colonel M]

Seems like rematches are pretty common but regardless - E for Gallade it is.

 

[Detective Barricade]

There is a 5% chance you will get a Dawn Stone after rematching Mysterious Sisters Scall & Ion in Sea Mauville.

Hm, so it can be available sooner than Victory Road... I don't think this really saves either Gallade or Froslass, however.

 

[Colonel M]

Hm, so it can be available sooner than Victory Road... I don't think this really saves either Gallade or Froslass, however.

Could put Froslass to D but that's pushing it. It's more convenient for Snorunt than it is for Ralts.

 

[Lucchini]

I meant Super Training; how much time on average would we need to get the stone from that?

And even then, Lotad gets his water stone before the last gym, while Ralts (Gallade) gets his stone before the E4. It's not exactly a big difference, yet Lotad is still in A tier somehow, while Ralts is in E. Gallade is one of the best fighters for the E4 after all, and if you can get Kirlia to evolve as early as you can (before Wattson maybe), then the payoff will be huge.

 

[Detective Barricade]

I meant Super Training; how much time on average would we need to get the stone from that?

And even then, Lotad gets his water stone before the last gym, while Ralts (Gallade) gets his stone before the E4. It's not exactly a big difference, yet Lotad is still in A tier somehow, while Ralts is in E. Gallade is one of the best fighters for the E4 after all, and if you can get Kirlia to evolve as early as you can (before Wattson maybe), then the payoff will be huge.

Far, far, far too much time to even consider. Remember, Super Training is considered too inefficient for this tier list, and that applies to the Secret Super Training as well. You have to max out a Pokemon's EV's, then go through all the Secret Super Training regimens up to the one with Gallade to even have a chance at getting a Dawn Stone out of it.

 

[stage7_4]

One of Celever's discussion points was Swablu so here goes, keep it in C-tier.

To quote Into the Woods, it's nice. Not bad, not good. Just nice. Mega-Altaria is great and STAB pixelate returns hurt, wide movepool, good typing. Swablu, however, is absolute dead-weight from the moment you get it to the moment it evolves at 35 (you can give it Ariel Ace to lessen the burden, but it's still a big burden) and Altaria isn't that much better. You can run mixed sets, but without the move-tutors there isn't much worth it on the special side (save for Dragon Pulse or Draco Meteor).

Plus all of the good stuff for it (Return, Earthquake, Dazzling Gleam, Altariaite, Dragon Claw/Pulse/Meteor) comes oh-so-late in the game. Sure, you've got a monster that will sweep most later battles and the elite four (but not Steven) but it's just not worth the effort of dragging a mediocre 'mon around until at least after Winona.

One thing I found helped it was using Secret Power or Facade in place of Return for the duration of Lilycove to Pacifilog. It was okay-ish as a stand-in.

Again, it's nice. Not bad, not good. Just nice.

 

[rigadoog]

One of Celever's discussion points was Swablu so here goes, keep it in C-tier.

To quote Into the Woods, it's nice. Not bad, not good. Just nice. Mega-Altaria is great and STAB pixelate returns hurt, wide movepool, good typing. Swablu, however, is absolute dead-weight from the moment you get it to the moment it evolves at 35 (you can give it Ariel Ace to lessen the burden, but it's still a big burden) and Altaria isn't that much better. You can run mixed sets, but without the move-tutors there isn't much worth it on the special side (save for Dragon Pulse or Draco Meteor).

Plus all of the good stuff for it (Return, Earthquake, Dazzling Gleam, Altariaite, Dragon Claw/Pulse/Meteor) comes oh-so-late in the game. Sure, you've got a monster that will sweep most later battles and the elite four (but not Steven) but it's just not worth the effort of dragging a mediocre 'mon around until at least after Winona.

One thing I found helped it was using Secret Power of Facade in place of Return for the duration of Lilycove to Pacifilog. It was okay-ish as a stand-in.

Again, it's nice. Not bad, not good. Just nice.

What about if you catch one with the eon flute at level ~50 and evolve it right away?

 

[Roseguardin]

I don't see the point in determining a minimum time for game's completion, and 6 hours might still be too fast considering some of us may have up to 6 Pokemon to keep trained up to be in playable shape, so we're not really skipping too many trainers.

You get Charge Beam before Wattson, and that's around the time you first get your Electrike too. How strong is 'that strong'? An evolution at L26 is acceptable with Electrike's stats and is far from being the worst in the Hoenn cast.

Nobody has actually suggested Electrike to be in S-tier, have we? Colonel M suggested B-tier but that seems like a different extremity for a mon with 135 sp. atk/135 spd and good enough (for A-tier) coverage with electric and fire.

Electrike is probably really comparable with Magnemite. Magnemite has the superior typing of the two, but Electrike has a significant advantage in speed. Magnezone and Mega Manectric happen to share the same sp. atk. stat, too.

Whismur got into A tier with such ease, but does he deserve to be there? No super-effective STAB against anything, and has to wait a really long time to evolve (will get there by gym 8 at best I'm assuming), and when it's evolved it has questionable E4 matchups and is slow for most of the game. Offensive stats aren't necessarily that high.

I can't speak on any of your other nominations, but I'm thinking Whismur's definitely A-Tier material. No super-effective STAB could be applied to pretty much any other Normal-type in the game, and in any case it's the raw power of Boomburst that really makes Exploud strong, coupled with the fact that you have access to an early Silk Scarf. Exploud also has a wide movepool to cover things that resist it's STAB: Flamethrower/EQ/ for Steels, Surf and Strength for HM support, Shadow Ball/Crunch for Ghosts. Colonel M mentioned earlier that it struggles against early gyms; while this is true to an extent(Bulldoze does work on the mons in the Electric gym), it can grind on route trainers barring Black Belts/Battle Girls, and once it gets Boomburst (around Norman-Winonaish),it can bust through the Flying and Water gyms (might need Surf for Tate+Liza because fuck Solrock/Lunatone). Elite Four-wise, it smashes Sidney and Glacia barring Froslass on the latter. It does need Shadow Ball to touch Phoebe, and Drake is iffy due to Dragon power. It can beat Steven's Skarmory and maybe his Armaldo, but that's about it for the Champion battle.

Tldr: Whismur for A-Tier because of its great offensive movepool and having relatively strong attacking options off of either stay.

This post might seem a little incoherent because I'm on my phone after 3hours of sleep, I'll proofread and edit it later. Happy New Year everyone btw.

 

[Colonel M]

I can't speak on any of your other nominations, but I'm thinking Whismur's definitely A-Tier material. No super-effective STAB could be applied to pretty much any other Normal-type in the game, and in any case it's the raw power of Boomburst that really makes Exploud strong, coupled with the fact that you have access to an early Silk Scarf. Exploud also has a wide movepool to cover things that resist it's STAB: Flamethrower/EQ/ for Steels, Surf and Strength for HM support, Shadow Ball/Crunch for Ghosts. Colonel M mentioned earlier that it struggles against early gyms; while this is true to an extent(Bulldoze does work on the mons in the Electric gym), it can grind on route trainers barring Black Belts/Battle Girls, and once it gets Boomburst (around Norman-Winonaish),it can bust through the Flying and Water gyms (might need Surf for Tate+Liza because fuck Solrock/Lunatone). Elite Four-wise, it smashes Sidney and Glacia barring Froslass on the latter. It does need Shadow Ball to touch Phoebe, and Drake is iffy due to Dragon power. It can beat Steven's Skarmory and maybe his Armaldo, but that's about it for the Champion battle.

Tldr: Whismur for A-Tier because of its great offensive movepool and having relatively strong attacking options off of either stay.

This post might seem a little incoherent because I'm on my phone after 3hours of sleep, I'll proofread and edit it later. Happy New Year everyone btw.

Yeah. Boomburst around Norman / Winona. Right.

I was around Level 30s at this point. The possible earliest I could see Boomburst is before Tate and Liza unless you soloed with Whismur.

Oh and many moves mentioned are rather late in the game (specifically Flamethrower).

 

[stage7_4]

What about if you catch one with the eon flute at level ~50 and evolve it right away?

Then Altaria comes even later and now you have to grind for happiness to get a full power Return.

Anyway, defending my Whismur claim, to arms!

A lot of people are pointing out Loudred's poor early/mid-game (I'm ignoring Whismur since you are all dead right on that one) but you are forgetting one factor: Echoed Voice. While unimpressive at first, it will 2HKO anything unresisted (40bp followed by 80bp) on the first pokemon and from then on the pseudo-moxie effect kicks in and you start one-shotting the rest (120, 160, 200bp). This allows it to get boss kills that it honestly should not be getting (Flannery's Torkoal, Norman's Slaking's).

As for Exploud/Boomburst, you should be marking for Winona range to get it (Norman is way too early for the typical trainer, sorry RegiFlame150). Either right at or shortly after her. You'll have it for a while before Tate & Liza though.

It's movepool is wide and never lacking at any point in the game. Stomp and Bite come early enough, Bulldoze at Mauville to crush Wattson, Overheat from Flannery (yes, Loudred can use Overheat), then Surf after Norman (and evolving). Add in Shadow Ball/Crunch later (unless you run into a scrappy one but that's DexNav so ignore this) and he's good to go. Has decent HM coverage, so he's a good support-mon in a game where that's more important.

The speed is a mitigating factor, enough to never support any S-tier claim, and Whismur is underwhelming before evolution.