You could have just pm'd that idea to scpinion on main, no point in discussing ideas about the CC here.
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Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion
- Thread starter scpinion
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1 learn to read posts. 2, learn to make plays. Sorry if this post seems a bit harsh, but, your being rash and reckless. Azalea basically answered every "argument" you gave, as well as ways to get around Jirachi. I agree with you for fairy and ice it is a pain, but its by no means impossible to counter.
Definitely doing this
Let me just say that paralyzing zard-x with electric doesn't really "neuter" it.
Mega-Ampharos is still outspend by a paralyzed Zard-x and the only other electric type who can take it out is Electavire, who is easily walled by defensive fire types or even just Rotom-Heat. Zard doesn't even need to boost against electric, it can just dragon claw and blitz its way through the entire team.
Poison teams are also still flattened by mega-Zard on it's own, albeit can apply rocks pressure more easily than it can against flying.
Grass is also bopped, and has the nasty issue of most SR setters being stopped by taunt Infernape or just bopped by LO STAB.
Bug is also bopped if it's the tailwind set; which IMO people need to run more.
Idk, I'm not sure if Zard-x needs a global ban but it's still a potentially broken threat against many types whether on fire or flying.
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DoW
formally Death on Wings
Mega Ampharos with a standard spread hits 126 speed. Standard Adamant Zard X hits 299. Paralysis quarters speed, and 299*1.5/4 = 112. Even at +1, para'd zard gets picked off by that dragon pulse.
I find poison teams can put on decent pressure through rocks, acid spray tentacruel and so forth, and though it's always a tough battle, you're using poison so you can't expect it to be easy.
Just a few minor points, I don't really know enough about the other matchups to comment, though I remain unconvinced that Zard X is broken on Fire. Certainly it is not a significant problem being on fire, and if it becomes one then it can be dealt with at that time.
Yeah I'd agree with that.
I wonder if we'll see more zard-x use on fire when volcanion comes out.
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
1. The Pokemon creates an auto-win condition against many types (3 is an absolute minimum). Altaria is not quite an auto win condition. It needs to get a dragon dance up, and even then, it isnt the fastest thing around. IT has worse bulk than mew and the likes, so it cant set up on everything.
2. The Pokemon promotes type based matchups. Altaria is great in the dragon mirror, but it doesn't promote type based matchups.
3. The Pokemon itself is broken by either a) team support or b) natural strength. Altaria is not strong at all. 110 attacking stats is super weak, even with ate. Gardevoir would be your choice for a pure power mon.
4. The Pokemon is an integral part of a core that cannot be beaten by most teams. Altaria is not in flying, the most core based type. it is preferred on dragon, as a loner :(
So for now I'm thinking no ban, but I'm not going to get reqs since I never face altaria on ladder, so I don't know if it is really op in practice.
2. The Pokemon promotes type based matchups. Altaria is great in the dragon mirror, but it doesn't promote type based matchups.
3. The Pokemon itself is broken by either a) team support or b) natural strength. Altaria is not strong at all. 110 attacking stats is super weak, even with ate. Gardevoir would be your choice for a pure power mon.
4. The Pokemon is an integral part of a core that cannot be beaten by most teams. Altaria is not in flying, the most core based type. it is preferred on dragon, as a loner :(
So for now I'm thinking no ban, but I'm not going to get reqs since I never face altaria on ladder, so I don't know if it is really op in practice.
Altaria has the advantage of setting up against many of its defensive walls and checks. Obviously you would not setup on a Heatran or something but Altaria almost always has the chance of getting off free Dragon Dances and Roosts, especially against defensive Pokemon.
Altaria is stupidly strong and gives a large advantage to Flying and Dragon types against types that would normally be considered an 'even' match. Dark types have little to nothing to stop Mega-Altaria once it gets up and going, and the same goes for Fighting types.
Altaria has access to Dragon Dance so that doesn't even matter. 110 Attack + a few Dragon Dance boosts + -ate will hit very hard. And that's based off of neutral strength, Altaria is a monster with team support. Wish, Healing Wish, Heal Bell support is available from Pokemon in both the Flying and Dragon typing. Both of these types also have Pokemon that patch up Altaria's weaknesses.
The fact that Altaria can do so much against teams without being a part of an integral core is what makes Altaria extremely scary.[/quote]
TBH here's the thing that I don't get as to why Altaria is being suspected in the first place:
- Dragon is not a top tier type atm according to the stats (meaning, it isn't the top 6 in usage)
- Altaria has little usage on flying, since most people use the Zard's
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
[/quote]
even those types weak to fairy have counters. Dark can use weavile or bisharp, and fighting can use willowisp infernape, cobalion, etc. Altaria is NOT stupidly strong AT ALL. It has 158 (special) attack with pixilate factored in, making it weaker than, for example, Gallade. Gallade had sd, priority, and much better team support. It also had insane coverage with fighting dark psychic, support sets like altaria; it's better in every way but was banned only because of team support. Altaria's team support isn't comparable, all it really gets it healing wish from latias on dragon and it isnt used on flying. Of course it can set up on defensive mns, but status cripples it, while Char-X is immune to burn and still shits on types due to its great typing and bulk.
I get why altaria is good, but good does not mean broken. IMO it has to be a cut above the other choices to be broken. Togekiss shits on dark and fighting too, but it isnt broken.
Don't judge mon by stats, 102 BP pixlate boosted atk hits stupidly hard after a DD. It can't be crippled by status if it carries heal bell, which it usually does. Don't get me wrong, but have can you know if it's broken or not if you haven't faced it that much? I swept with and got swept by altaria, and it usually wasn't due to the misplays of me or my opponents, it's just the fact that that thing can pull of a DD stupidly easly. It can come in on any defensive mon if it carries heal bell, switch in after dragons use draco, switch in against scarfed mons that can't hit it hard etc. And once it gets a DD of some types basically can't stop it.
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DoW
formally Death on Wings
Usage and brokenness are not always correlated, and although high usage can be an indicator of something being broken it's far from a neccessity. This is even more true in Monotype where broken can mean creating very matchup-heavy games rather than simply beating everything as per OU. For example, Kyu-W saw very little usage as nobody was using Ice, however it was still broken.
Fighting teams can play around and beat Lati@s and Togekiss. Simply because something has a type advantage doesn't make it broken. Altaria, however, can set up on a large number of mons and proceed to sweep with extremely little difficulty. It is often extremely difficult to beat without first losing a mon due to the large number of sets it can viably run, and a large number of types have huge difficulty in beating it whether it's on Flying or Dragon. This sets it apart from Lati@s and Togekiss.
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
um the only way to judge a mon is by its stats. wow octillery is broken, look at its movepool! Carrying heal bell means you scrap earthquake, so you lost out on important coverage. Heal bell is mainly used on the special sets in my experience. When I say I haven't faced altaria I'm talking about in Monotype, my experience that I'm saying is from OU. plus don't attack people attack their arguments. Types can easily stop it, I pointed out counters that you jsut ignored and you haven't shown why it is more broken than stuff like togekiss in these matchups. In fact, with how overpowered thunder wave is, togekiss is actually better in the matchups. Show some calcs or even replays as opposed to giving biased personal experiences and I will believe your arguments.
DoW
formally Death on Wings
Mega Garchomp's highest stat is 170, which happens to be its attack stat. Yet in OU it's not exactly the best ever mon.
Landorus' highest stat is 125, which happens to be a stat it doesn't even use. Yet it's banned in OU.
Pokemon have to be judged by how they work overall, and by how they work alongside their teams. You can't just look at a statline and tell someone whether a mon's broken or not, you have to look at how its movepool, stats, typing, ability and team support options all work together.
It just so happens that a SpA stat of 115, alongside solid typing, Sheer Force and a strong movepool is very good at wallbreaking and supporting its team, whereas even with 170 base Attack Mega Chomp struggles to do much with it. And Altaria is certainly closer to Landorus than Mega Garchomp in this respect.
Looking purely at a pokemon's base stats to account for whether it's broken or not is just as terrible as judging a pokemon's viability based on its movepool.
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
Landorus was banned (even though i didn't agree with it) because it had sheer force on top of the special attack. It was stronger than altaria is. It had calcs showing it had few counters- latias, cress, mew. You guys have shown no calcs to prove that it is broken to me, no replays with it in action, you haven't refuted any of my relevant arguments (like the fact that togekiss is also good vs dark and fighting and that there are counters) and combined with the name "Mega Slutbunny" and your cancerous signature of "paraflinch takes skill" just makes me sad. You seem like the type of people who woud try to legalize giratina regular, ban anything with an attack stat over 100. and keep bullshit strategies like thunder wave and paraflinch. Your arguments have made me more likely to try to ladder and vote no ban, even if I haven't faced altaria in monotype :/
Ok...
I'm sorry if I offended you with my post...
Anyway, OU and mono are two different tiers and you can't say something isn't broken in mono because it's not in OU. In fact, in mono altaria carries heal bell more often than eq (which can be seen on monotype statistic page). Weavile and bisharp are by no means counters, they aren't even checks if they aren't sashed.
(Not gonna post calcs of unboosted altaria, you won't face that often)
+1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Weavile: 830-980 (295.3 - 348.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 304-358 (111.7 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Replays have already been posted, not sure if in this one or old thread, you can look them up if you want. This altaria discussion has started pretty long ago, not yesterday when suspect test date was revealed so calcs, replays and arguements exist.
Apologies for making you feel threatened, it wasn't my intention
I strongly encourage you to actually try laddering though, the OU meta and monotype are vastly different, and theorymonning can only get you so far
I strongly encourage you to actually try laddering though, the OU meta and monotype are vastly different, and theorymonning can only get you so far
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
sorry i get salty when facing twave in tournaments. a guy used twave with his jirachi just before i posted that. i feel bad for being part of this community in this state too man :/
First off none of the things you pointed out are "counters". A counter can switch into a threat, which neither Dark nor Fighting really has unless you run max physically defensive Cobalion (a bad set). What these types have are a scarce few checks....
Mega-Altaria only needs to run Dragon Dance, Roost, and Frustration to be a threat. Just those three moves are enough to steamroll several types with little effort. But you're right, some checks exist for this set... but the fourth move lets Mega-Altaria pick it's checks.
Cotton Guard: Removes literally every check on Dark and Fighting and let's Mega-Altaria set up on offensive teams easily. This set sets up and sweep any dark team, able to easily sponge Bisharp Iron Heads or Weavile Icicle Crashes after a single boost. Sure they can use SD to catch up, but you're also boosting speed and at +1 you can KO with Frustration anyway. Respectively lets Mega-Altaria sweep Fairy, Ice, Fighting, Dark, and Fire more easily.
Refresh: Run on a lot of sets to let Mega-Altaria set up on status users like Slowbro, Porygon2, or Sableye. Respectively lets Mega-Altaria sweep Psychic and Water far more easily.
Earthquake: A coverage move that tbh is the least useful of Mega-Altaria's options. Anything that isn't getting KOd by Frustration is better off being dealt with by Lando-I or Garchomp's STAB ground moves. Regardless it provides decent coverage to hit bulky Steel types like Empoleon, Heatran, Magnezone, and Aegislash. Respectively lets Mega-Altaria sweep Electric and Fire far more easily.
Overall though, I don't feel like restating myself so just reference my previous post. I've been laddering for the suspect test with Mega-Altaria and it's only cementing my opinion that it needs to go.
Mega-Altaria
I don't really view mega-altaria as a surefire ban, but I feel it's worthy of a suspect based on the way it can set up and sweep on so many types so easily. Dark, Fighting, Fire, Dragon, and Electric teams all provide ample opportunity for mega-altaria to set up and struggle to take it out.
Electric: Electric struggles with it's lack of poison or steel coverage. It has Magnezone, but all magnezone sets are outsped at +1 and unless you run air balloon or have a unbroken sturdy you're stuck relying on thunder-wave Thundy and hoping Maltaria doesn't abuse healing wish support or just switch out. Counter Ampharos is something I've been trying lately to deal with both Mega-Altaria and Mega-Charizard X, as you can bait an attack and live it without mega-evolving with moderate investment; but it's an incredibly niche set.
Dark: Mega-Altaria sets up on an upsetting number of Dark Pokemon; Mandibuzz, Tyranitar, Crawdaunt, and more. You mention Weavile as a check but Weavile can only finish altaria off; unless the Altaria isn't running enough speed EVs to outspeed at +1 (252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 151-179 (49.1 - 58.3%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO). Even then Mega-Altaria can switch out and come back with healing wish later.
Fighting: Again, fighting struggles to stop a mega-altaria at +1 and provides the opportunity for Queen-DDD to set up. Fighting has supply to scarfers who can outspeed a +1 altaria but neither terrakion or Keldeo can KO it, only slow it down with icy wind or hope for a flinch with iron head. Bullet Punch Priority exists but again mega-altaria is bulky enough to roost it off and can just switch, ultimately.
Fire: Hope that Heatran is a jolly scarf or has an intact balloon. And again, Mega-Altaria can just switch out. Rotom-H can paralyze it maybe?
Dragon: Hope you have a +spd scarf Kyurem-B, a unbroken multiscale, or managed to set up mega-altaria first.
Those are just the most lopsided match ups; mega-altaria can also set up easily on normal teams who can really just hope they have the right Ditto happiness. A pokemon's usage doesn't translate to whether it's OP or not; it might make it less of a priority however. I think Mega-Altaria is suspect worthy.
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While on paper its usage isn't particularly high, Dragon is still a top tier type. I have a few stats based on some data ArkenCiel collected and the Monotype usage and match up data here.
The data isn't 100% on point, as I didn't bother to mirror the results so that all the win rates were based on 1630 weighting, but it shouldn't matter too much anyway. Basically, the second set of ranks are based on a combination of win rates against a type, and that types abundance on the ladder. Dragon's rating was 48.62% ±6.29%, putting it in second place behind ground with 51.97% ±7.53%. Of course, ground has recently been nerfed which could in theory put Dragon at the top of the list.
TL;DR Dragon does the best on the ladder statistically now that ground has been nerfed. Usage =/= Viability
Mega Pikachu said:
And Anttya shared a spread I didn't find.Anttya said:
This spread was really good and it's allowed M- Alaria easily booster mostly.
Perhaps someone get it yet?
All I wanted say is check before say there aren't replays,...
I'm curious about this...
If this is something you guys are making the effort to do every month then I'd consider adding that analysis to the website, where it could be scripted. I'm not sure I completely understand what it is saying (or what you're calculating) right now though. Could you (or Arken) elaborate on it a bit?
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